Extremely Important Obsenity Case MUST READ !!!

[sarettah]

Just found this in my xbiz newsletter, apparently Red Rose got busted for obsenity for writing stories about beastie and other such nasty stuff.

NOT FOR PICTURES OR VIDS

FOR STORIES !!!!

http://xbiz.com/news_piece.php?id=10680

Red Rose Stories Closed by FBI
By Jayson Romaine
Friday, October 7, 2005

PITTSBURGH — Online erotic stories host Red Rose Stories announced on its site Friday that the FBI had forced it to shut down.
According to a posting on the site’s main page, Red Rose Stories is facing obscenity charges for posting stories that allegedly involved bestiality, water sports, scat, bondage and domination, S&M, slavery, threesomes, orgies and sex with children.

According to Rosie, who runs the site, such topics have opened the door to her prosecution.

“Trust me on this. I found out the hard way. I never thought I'd be in trouble for the written word," Rosie told XBiz via email. “I had no pictures of a sexual nature on my site, adult or otherwise. [It seems] the only legal sex stories are those that involve a man and a woman consenting to missionary position sex in a dark room.”

Rosie said officials came to her house when she was not home and seized a number of items.

The men in black took all of my computer equipment and many of my diskettes, and have access to all my files and site information,” she wrote. “I am sorry to inform all interested parties that Red Rose Stories is a dead site.”

Rosie said that chat services on the site, as well as some parts to its forum, would remain open, and suggested subscribers contact the Pittsburgh FBI office if they “want to ask the feds for a refund.”

As of this writing, calls by XBiz to the office were not returned.

News of the site’s closure comes just days after the offices of Max Hardcore’s Max World Entertainment were raided under the authority of the Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section of the Justice Department, and little more than a week after the FBI launched an anti-obscenity squad at the behest of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to increase obscenity prosecutions throughout the country.

[MorganGrayson]

This is going to require some processing before I can respond.

[MorganGrayson]

When my post came up...I looked at the WT banner.

Apparently...we have been misinformed....

[Red]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

This is going to require some processing before I can respond.

I know what you mean. I'm sitting here dumbfounded.

[sudden]

Oh come on, it was due sooner or later. The "freedom" and "freedom of speech" (or written word) is no more true in the United States than most
other countries. Everyone in the US just has a false sense of security, which
is crumbling.

Sorry to whom it happened to, it's bullshit if you ask me, but unfortunately
you elected Bush - not me (I had no voting rights even tho I lived there when he was elected).

Ok, I know some are going to bitch it's not all Bush's fault, and it may not be,
it's the fault of Bush AND the whole US legal system

[helix]

The FBI stopped by to talk to me today, they suspected I was having impure thoughts again.

[JR]

ok kids, sorry to be the voice of reason,... but this is nothing new. people have been prosecuted for this before.. which one would think would be a warning sign to others doing the same exact thing and more.

[Dravyk]

Ok, read elsewhere that there's a lot more to the story. There had to be when you think about it.

Seems besides child abuse and toddler pedo (sigh) stories, and other really nasty shit, they also had a chat room with "very-encouraged" file-to-file transfers and such.

[helix]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

Ok, read elsewhere that there's a lot more to the story. There had to be when you think about it.

Seems besides child abuse and toddler pedo (sigh) stories, and other really nasty shit, they also had a chat room with "very-encouraged" file-to-file transfers and such.

Now that makes more sense. Sounds like they were looking for trouble.

[JR]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

Ok, read elsewhere that there's a lot more to the story. There had to be when you think about it.

Seems besides child abuse and toddler pedo (sigh) stories, and other really nasty shit, they also had a chat room with "very-encouraged" file-to-file transfers and such.

there is ALWAYS more to the story.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

Ok, read elsewhere that there's a lot more to the story. There had to be when you think about it.

Seems besides child abuse and toddler pedo (sigh) stories, and other really nasty shit, they also had a chat room with "very-encouraged" file-to-file transfers and such.

That explains it. And if that's true, then she deserves what she gets.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

There had to be when you think about it.

You would hope there would be.

[domtheboy]

Originally Posted by Red

That explains it. And if that's true, then she deserves what she gets.

Chisel that one in stone, people fucking with shit like that deserve nailing to the wall

[Due]

Anyone that involve children into adult sites shuld be shot on the spot.
Pictures, stories, movies etc is all the same to me, there is no fucking excuse for having anything that relate a child to a sexual action, fantasy or not.

[venturi]

Interesting that we've now seen two obsenity busts this week, and at first glance I was like "ruht roh, here it comes...". But honestly, in both these cases the raided parties basically wrote kick me here! on their asses.

The US gov't agencies may not exactly be brain trusts, but they also aren't blind and ignorant either.

[Red]

Originally Posted by venturi

Interesting that we've now seen two obsenity busts this week, and at first glance I was like "ruht roh, here it comes...". But honestly, in both these cases the raided parties basically wrote kick me here! on their asses.

You're absolutely right. The government is going to go after the easiest cases they can find.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

Ok, read elsewhere that there's a lot more to the story. There had to be when you think about it.

Seems besides child abuse and toddler pedo (sigh) stories, and other really nasty shit, they also had a chat room with "very-encouraged" file-to-file transfers and such.

Thank you, Dravyk. (Making the absolutely first time in history anyone has ever said "thank you" for information it was as painful to give as to receive.)

Hang the bitch. Then when that's done...shoot the bitch.

All of my porn stories involve adults. In "Aunt Jane's Panties," it's clearly explained - belabored, in fact - that she is *not* is "real" aunt, she went to college with his mother. There's a big wall at age 18 and an empty void behind it.

However, it's a lot like the ACLU fighting for the rights of the Nazis to march in Skokie, Indiana. "Either we all have rights or nobody has rights." Writers are put in the position of defending the rights of other writers, but basically, we're all supposed to be making this shit up. It isn't real. Reading what this writing was about made me ill. I'd never in a million years write this stuff. But at first glance, I thought she was just another writer who "made shit up."

Apparently...she's got a lot more going on, none of which I even have to contemplate defending.

As others have said, our rights have been an illusion for a long time.

[RyanLanane]

Putting aside what Dravyk said - I actually always thought text stories would be more likely to cause problems than pictures for most people. For some reaosn webmasters seem to think it is O.K. to add beasty stories but not pictures. At least that used to be the case..

I remember many webmasters who had years ago beasty stories and stories of teens in class being 'raped' (in statutory terms) but wouldn't of thought of touching such images...

Always suprised me..

[Dravyk]

Ryan, it's always been the big difference that words and stories of such things, are at least imaginary ... might be repugnant to some (and obviously attractive to others) but whatever happens it is indeed "just a story" ... and of course pics or movies are actions.

Sorta the difference between thinking and talking about something and actually doing it. As such, aledgedly, words and thoughts are supposed to be more "protected". So on the one side, it opens up the possibilities of all the evils of the world in the extreme; on the other side and other extreme, slamming such things becomes the thought police, the Gestapo, 1984 ...

[RyanLanane]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

Ryan, it's always been the big difference that words and stories of such things, are at least imaginary ... might be repugnant to some (and obviously attractive to others) but whatever happens it is indeed "just a story" ... and of course pics or movies are actions.

Sorta the difference between thinking and talking about something and actually doing it. As such, aledgedly, words and thoughts are supposed to be more "protected". So on the one side, it opens up the possibilities of all the evils of the world in the extreme; on the other side and other extreme, slamming such things becomes the thought police, the Gestapo, 1984 ...

In my eyes just as bad, protected or not.. But you are right as far as to how we think of it, as Americans. Words tend to appeal more to women whereas pictures appeal to men - but when you get into the world of perversions people this sort of material would appeal to ... about anything on the subject matter does it for them. It's an area I personally wouldn't mind losing my first amendment rights in.

[sarettah]

There is nothing that is so bad, so dangerous, so patently offensive,
that it cannot be talked about.

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

It's an area I personally wouldn't mind losing my first amendment rights in.

Then you sir, are a fool. (imho of course)







They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Ben Franklin 1759

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

It is easy to take liberty for granted, when you have never had it taken from you. Dick Cheney

[Red]

Originally Posted by sarettah

There is nothing that is so bad, so dangerous, so patently offensive,
that it cannot be talked about.

that depends on the way you talk about it. Remember, only non-obscene material is protected under the first amendment. Obscenity is determined by the "miller test"

"(a) whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,
(b) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law, and
(c) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value."



Erotic writing is usually defended under item c

[sarettah]

Originally Posted by Red

that depends on the way you talk about it. Remember, only non-obscene material is protected under the first amendment. Obscenity is determined by the "miller test"

"(a) whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,
(b) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law, and
(c) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value."



Erotic writing is usually defended under item c

It is obvious that 'obscenity' is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the Courts, it means 'anything that shocks the magistrate.'
Bertrand Russell

"Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there." Clare Booth LUCE

We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.
John F. KENNEDY

[Raven]

Fictional writing. Isn't that part of the 'childless child' defense? If there is no child, no matter how disgusting the content appears to be, then how can one be prosecuted for obscenity? It's fiction. Based on someone's mind, albeit a sick one. Putting thought to paper is now a crime.

Anime came under fire a few years ago for the same reasons. The images were too young looking; but, the Supreme Court ruled. Since the images did not involve real human models, there is no basis.

Whether we personally abhor this or not...isn't really the question, is it? I would personally like to see everyone NOT collect Nazi memorabilia ...but, legally, they are covered under the law.

So, what's next?

What can't we write? Speak? Think?

Her site is disgusting. And, I'm quite sure there is more to this story; but, the written word? Well then, I guess the libraries are next for their sections that may contain subjects of questionable content.

Let's see. The Last Temptation of Christ? Lolita? Anne Rice (under a pseudonym) Beauty series, which is purely S/M and listed under erotic fiction?

[Red]

Originally Posted by Raven

Fictional writing. Isn't that part of the 'childless child' defense? If there is no child, no matter how disgusting the content appears to be, then how can one be prosecuted for obscenity? It's fiction. Based on someone's mind, albeit a sick one. Putting thought to paper is now a crime.

Anime came under fire a few years ago for the same reasons. The images were too young looking; but, the Supreme Court ruled. Since the images did not involve real human models, there is no basis.

Whether we personally abhor this or not...isn't really the question, is it? I would personally like to see everyone NOT collect Nazi memorabilia ...but, legally, they are covered under the law.

So, what's next?

What can't we write? Speak? Think?

Her site is disgusting. And, I'm quite sure there is more to this story; but, the written word? Well then, I guess the libraries are next for their sections that may contain subjects of questionable content.

Let's see. The Last Temptation of Christ? Lolita? Anne Rice (under a pseudonym) Beauty series, which is purely S/M and listed under erotic fiction?

You're absolutely right Raven, unfortunately libraries have already started banning Mark Twain, Catcher in the Rye, America..The Book and many others. It's very scary to think that those libraries that believe in giving us the right to choose our reading material, may come under fire.

[Osiris]

Don't we all just love america?


Someone from a better country needs to sponsor me for a job so I can move easily..

[RyanLanane]

Raven Sarettah - I understand where you are coming from and agree with you to a point but Imagine if there was a site where pedophiles could get together and post their utmost fantasies, as long as they didn't post real stories ? The thought is sickening.

I have always been a person that was big on free speech and always will be but there are some things that just disguist me. I do agree it is a fine line but like I said, I personally would be willing to give up my freedom to write extremely obscene (and I will laugh at hard hard core porn I'm tlaking about the REAL obscene shit) material if it ridded the net of it.. Meaning no more running into child rape stories.

True I don't have to read them, but.. This really is the type of stuff that would fuel a sexual deviate's entire demeanor and what literary benefit does it have? Touchy subject I know.. I am a real tight ass about this shit ever since I had my daughter though.. .Amazing how much it changes your life and the htings you are so bothered about ...

[PornoDoggy]

Ryan, there already are places where pedo's can get together and compare notes - it's called jail (or mental hospitals when they get done with jail).

There are lots of topics that don't have anything to do with sex that I find sickening. I'm not real keen on the idea that knuckle-draggers like the white supremacists (or any other supremacists, for that matter) are showing some real talent at attracting young people to their midst. There's a whole lot of gun-related sites, and "Christian" related sites, that make me just as sick as any pedo/beasty material can.

So - who do you stop? Do you stop the pedos but not mental midgets like the Klan? Do you stop pedos and the Klan, but not the Socialists or Communists? Who gets to decide who to stop?

[MorganGrayson]

Ryan...having a child changes everything. My husband and I used to make jokes about our "family tradition." My parents were pregnant when they married. His parents were pregnant when they married. He and I were pregnant when we married.

Then...we had a daughter and it abruptly stopped being funny. (Rather startled us how abruptly and how "not funny" it became. Who were we now, we wondered.)

I am not willing to give up any of my rights. I will not put my own work, or the work of other writers, in danger because some choose to write what would make me vomit if I read it. Once censorship of the written word begins...it doesn't stop. If we've learned nothing from history...we must learn that.

PD has a good point. Correct that. A *great* point. I get ill at "Christian" sites. Does this Wiccan now get to censor their freedom of speech and religion just because their view of the world offends me?

[RyanLanane]

Great points and I agree, I guess just the initial way it hit me didn't make me think about the larger picture. I guess there are still, to this day, costs for the freedoms we have. Can't have your cake and eat it to, as they say..

While nazi stuff is very offensive to me it doesnt make me jump out of my skin like I did about the child porn issue - however I am very sure that it is just as, if not much more offensive to a huge portion of this world and America. Many Americans would jump out at that the way I did Child Porn ...

BTW, I'm Christian - the worst one of all.. CATHOLIC! lol ... Wicca doesn't bother me though, sort of suprised christianity bothers you so much - I don't have much understanding when it comes to other religions though.

It just irritates the living shit out of me though

[MorganGrayson]

Ryan...oh, please, you've misunderstood. What I call "christianity," with a "small c," I adore. Feed the hungry, comfort the sick...all the things that Christ said to do. (It's remarkably like Wicca. We have the "be nice" clause, too.)

It's "Christianity" with a "Capital C" that bugs the hell out of me. All of these people who think theirs is the "one true god," that everyone else is wrong, that god speaks directly to them, and everybody who doesn't believe what they do should go to prison, burn in hell or whatever.

In Wicca, we are taught to respect all Paths. And, I try. I really do. But people who use religion as a weapon against others make it very, very difficult to respect.

I was raised Roman Catholic - in the "one true church." I didn't fit. I didn't find a place where I fit until a few years ago...and it was Wicca. Here, I fit. There's a lot I don't understand...but I didn't ever understand the Holy Trinity, either. Over their, I was confused and miserable. Over here, I'm confused and happy. I think of it as a nice upgrade.

I think Jesus Christ is totally groovy, and that is said with a degree of profound respect that the "Capital Cs" would never understand.

I can not and will not worship a god that requires "quaking and fear." Not when there's a Goddess who says "c'mere....ya look like ya need a hug."

[PornoDoggy]

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

Great points and I agree, I guess just the initial way it hit me didn't make me think about the larger picture. I guess there are still, to this day, costs for the freedoms we have. Can't have your cake and eat it to, as they say..

While nazi stuff is very offensive to me it doesnt make me jump out of my skin like I did about the child porn issue - however I am very sure that it is just as, if not much more offensive to a huge portion of this world and America. Many Americans would jump out at that the way I did Child Porn ...

BTW, I'm Christian - the worst one of all.. CATHOLIC! lol ... Wicca doesn't bother me though, sort of suprised christianity bothers you so much - I don't have much understanding when it comes to other religions though.

It just irritates the living shit out of me though

Oh, so you are Catholic. That explains it - according to some, including many of the Klan-style pseudo-humans, you're not really an American anyway.

[RyanLanane]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Oh, so you are Catholic. That explains it - according to some, including many of the Klan-style pseudo-humans, you're not really an American anyway.

Just cause I'm Catholic does not mean I agree with everything about the religion, not that I give a damn what Nazis think. I believe there is a God, I believe that Jesus walked the earth, not so sure about whether he will again or not but hey it's possible.. I don't fall into the whole apocolypse thing as it is more of what Morgan is talking about, instilling fear. I do believe in heaven and hell.

I do not agree with MANY (understatement) of the beliefs of Catholicism, such as no pre-marital sex or use of birth control as my two major peeves. I use protection for a reason, I am not in a position in my life to have another Child - doing so would be extremely irresponsible.

After being very lucky as a young man I am just now gaining respect for alot of things in life as I experience more swings than 99.99% of the people who ever read this will in their lives. I also make way to many mistakes but I am learning from them... I have not learned everything I need to though, and have a longgggg way to go.

I have spoken with my Mom, who raised me Catholic, about my feelings regarding my religion and she is in the same boat as me - I think A TON of Catholics are. We don't believe in the harsh guidelines they push and I don't think I need to GO TO CHURCH and donate money to pray or worship god, period. She went through a lot when my Step Dad divorced her for another women, she went to a lot of retreats and took great personal inventory of herself - I truly admire her for the person she is.. She explained to me that I don't need to go to a Church to worship god.. I can sit in front of a tree and pray - all the same to god.

That being said, I want my daughter to be baptised for some reason as I want her to have a god - and god forbid if anything ever happened to her I would just feel better about it if she was baptised. I don't understand, given what I just said, why I feel this way.. It might actually be the fear you mentioned Morgan - but I do and there is no way in HELL the Catholic church will baptise (wrong word first post!) the daughter of an unwed (to this day) mother...

[Raven]

The thought of sexual anything with children disgusts me. There are many things which disgust me on a visceral level.

I cannot, however, censor thought or words.

If paedophiles write their stories on paper, they are still just stories, no matter how disgusting I think they are. They are words.

When this country begins the banning of books, like The Color Purple, because it was degrading to blacks....and Mark Twain....what's next?

Who's next?

I was born in a country where people disappeared for having 'thoughts'. They didn't dare write them. They whispered. And, if the whisper police found out or suspected, you were gone, never to be seen again. Those stories are burned into my memory.

Can't live if your thoughts are subject to government intervention. Words are just thoughts on paper. They can be seditious, sexual, stimulating, powerful; but, in the end, they are words.

[SykkBoy]

Being a champion of free speech often means defending speech I personally find offenseive...so it's not easy...but when we start regulating thought and writing, it becomes a slippery slope. What comes next and who decides what is obscene? I'm sure there are some church going folks who would have a different definition of what is obscene or offensive. Maybe we should let them make all the laws (oops ;-))

[SykkBoy]

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

This really is the type of stuff that would fuel a sexual deviate's entire demeanor and what literary benefit does it have? Touchy subject I know...

The same argument can be said for anything we do in this industry....so should every erotic story written from now on only be about two people having sex out of love for each other and to procreate and make a baby?

[RyanLanane]

Come on now Sykk lol ... Stretching what I said just a 'tad' aren't we?

[MorganGrayson]

Ryan...when I was baptized, the couple in front of my parents got tossed out by the priest because they wanted to name the infant "Cynthia." (Not a saint's name, and therefore not on the "approved list," for those of you who just went "Huh????")

Yes, the Catholic Church will punish the infant because of what they view as "the sins of the mother." Interesting religion, isn't it?

I know what you're fighting against...and putting this as gently as possible, it's called "brainwashing." If you're raised Catholic, you are brainwashed with a severity that puts the Nazis and Communists to absolute shame. To this DAY, I can't "first name" "The Blessed Virgin." That causes some lumpy conversations with both Protestants and other pagans. I get blank looks, then explain "I was raised Catholic," and everyone - no matter what their religion - goes "Ahhh...I get it."

The baptism thing made me physically ill for a long time. I, too, had the painful, gut urge to have my children baptized, because they had sufficiently terrorized me into believing "something bad" would happen if I didn't. One of my children was baptized in the Catholic church for one reason only: it made her great-grandmother so damned happy. When we went to talk to the priest beforehand, my husband kept a death grip on my wrist to prevent me from lunging across the desk at the pompous asshole.

I feel for you so much, Ryan. Right now, you're trying to shove a square peg (you) into a round hole (the Church) and it's going to be painful.

Personal theology is something you work on your whole life. In a way, it's like ordering from the menu at a Chinese restaurant. "One from column A, two from colum B...let's skip over the shit in colum C, it sucks...and an eggroll."

In Wiccas, infants have a "wiccaning," but you can't dedicate yourself to the Goddess until you're an adult. A wiccaning is more of a family celebration of the new life and a promise to give it their absolutely best shot in raising said child.

No fear, no threats of eternal damnation, just love. The Goddess loves you because you exist. All you had to do to earn the love of the Goddess was show up. If you "sin," well, the sun will come up tomorrow and you take another shot at life. (That's the short version. The only sin we have, really, is hurting another person or youself on purpose.)

It isn't as easy as it sounds. Being nice and being careful with people and the planet all the time is a real bitch when you put it in practice 24/7.

And for those who might be wondering, I'm not proselitizing. I'm just talking. I know the pain Ryan is going through because I went through it myself.

The Methodists have rocking cool commercials on television here. They might be worth a shot. They do baptisms, too.

[JR]

Originally Posted by SykkBoy

Being a champion of free speech often means defending speech I personally find offenseive...so it's not easy...but when we start regulating thought and writing, it becomes a slippery slope. What comes next and who decides what is obscene? I'm sure there are some church going folks who would have a different definition of what is obscene or offensive. Maybe we should let them make all the laws (oops ;-))

they do make the laws right? everyone does. laws are the product of elected officials representing the will of their consituents. laws can be amended and rescinded anytime.

i love this conversation because it highlights exactly what you just said and what has already been before the supreme court.... protecting speech means protecting a lot of things you might find vulgar or offensive. its just not a black and white issue. it can't be. in fact, there often seems to be more gray than anything and that is really what the discussion is about.

people are arguing about what is appropriate, innapropriate and so on... and forgetting the basic point either you draw a line somewhere in determining what speech is protected... or you have no line at all. and you have to ask yourself what is a better world... a world where ones right to express themself is absolutely protected or a world where someone is deciding for you, what is appropriate, what is innapropriate, what is offensive, what is acceptable, what is unnaceptable and so on. and once you accept that, you will have to accept that those boundaries might move in ways you never considered they might.

do i think that writing about a person fingering a 6 month old infant objectionable? of course i do. should he be able to write about it? yes, i think so.

[Red]

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

While nazi stuff is very offensive to me it doesnt make me jump out of my skin like I did about the child porn issue - however I am very sure that it is just as, if not much more offensive to a huge portion of this world and America. Many Americans would jump out at that the way I did Child Porn ...

Nazi stuf makes my skin crawl just as much as cp. And as much as I would love to see them all strung up, the bottom line is what they can do to one, they can do to all, so I'm not willing to give up my freedom of speech to stiffle any group.

[MorganGrayson]

Originally Posted by JR

they do make the laws right? everyone does. laws are the product of elected officials representing the will of their consituents. laws can be amended and rescinded anytime.

i love this conversation because it highlights exactly what you just said and what has already been before the supreme court.... protecting speech means protecting a lot of things you might find vulgar or offensive. its just not a black and white issue. it can't be. in fact, there often seems to be more gray than anything and that is really what the discussion is about.

people are arguing about what is appropriate, innapropriate and so on... and forgetting the basic point either you draw a line somewhere in determining what speech is protected... or you have no line at all. and you have to ask yourself what is a better world... a world where ones right to express themself is absolutely protected or a world where someone is deciding for you, what is appropriate, what is innapropriate, what is offensive, what is acceptable, what is unnaceptable and so on. and once you accept that, you will have to accept that those boundaries might move in ways you never considered they might.

do i think that writing about a person fingering a 6 month old infant objectionable? of course i do. should he be able to write about it? yes, i think so.

I was going to edit what I quoted so this wouldn't be such a huge post...but I decided not to leave out a word.

To protect all of us, there must be no "line." To protect our own rights, we must also protect the rights of people who want to make us vomit.

I referenced earlier the ACLU fighting for the rights of Nazis to march in Skokie, Illinois...which happens to be the home of a great many Holocaust survivors. This was sickening. However, one of our basic rights is "freedom of assembly." All laws were followed by the Nazis with regard to getting permits, etc. People filed suit to stop it. I imagine the ACLU folks were nauseated beyond belief, but when you set yourself up to defend civil liberties...you have to defend *everyone's* civil liberties, not just the "nice people's" civil liberties.

A very long time ago I nearly hit a telephone pole in Louisville, Kentucky. Attached to said pole was the flyer that marked it as the route of the KKK march that coming Saturday. (School integration had just hit town.) They marched, and my neighbor - an amateur photographer - took pictures. He showed them to me. They were in black and white, just like the pics I saw in books from the 50's...but this was the 70's.

They have the same right to feedom of assembly as the Mayor of Louisville had when he organized his "anti-hate" rally. The Mayor's rally got a much bigger turnout than the KKK march.

The black and white part of this is that either we *all* have rights...or *nobody* has rights.

[Dravyk]

Christianity. Had that disease once, but I recovered.

[venturi]

Originally Posted by Raven

If paedophiles write their stories on paper, they are still just stories, no matter how disgusting I think they are. They are words.

While I agree with you, that is for better or worse not the way the legal precedents have it.
I believe it was 4 or 5 years ago a pedo (in Illinois?) that had been convicted, served his time and been released was brought up on new charges, and again convicted and sentenced, for possessing mere fantasy writings. He was in out-patient therapy/councelling but still had paedophilic urges - so as a method of self-therapy to help relieve the stress/whatever he kept a journal/diary of the fantasies he had. He had not shared his musings with anyone much less published them, but in a shakedown of sorts the writings were found and he went right back up the river.

[RyanLanane]

Thanks for the posts Morgan, I have had people mention other religions and I believe Methodist was one of those - they have had quite a few ads on T.V. around here lately and actually have a church a block's walk from my house. Might be something worth looking into !

Matt Hail used to live in the house directly behind my house when I was growing up in Creve Coeur, IL - we all knew he was an eccentric Nazi but never expected him to do the things in his life he did. Sad really. It doesnt suprise me he came from Creve Coeur though, pretty much a trailer park town - good thing we moved out when I was 11 or else I would probably be doing 20 in Joliet right now.

[SykkBoy]

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

Come on now Sykk lol ... Stretching what I said just a 'tad' aren't we?

How? Who's morals and boundaries of what should and shouldn't be written about should we use? Yours? Pat Robertson's? Who's? How is your free speech any more important than that of someone who's speech you don't agree with or are offended by?

[Nickatilynx]

Originally Posted by MorganGrayson

Ryan...when I was baptized, the couple in front of my parents got tossed out by the priest because they wanted to name the infant "Cynthia." (Not a saint's name, and therefore not on the "approved list," for those of you who just went "Huh????")

Yes, the Catholic Church will punish the infant because of what they view as "the sins of the mother." Interesting religion, isn't it?

I know what you're fighting against...and putting this as gently as possible, it's called "brainwashing." If you're raised Catholic, you are brainwashed with a severity that puts the Nazis and Communists to absolute shame. To this DAY, I can't "first name" "The Blessed Virgin." That causes some lumpy conversations with both Protestants and other pagans. I get blank looks, then explain "I was raised Catholic," and everyone - no matter what their religion - goes "Ahhh...I get it."

The baptism thing made me physically ill for a long time. I, too, had the painful, gut urge to have my children baptized, because they had sufficiently terrorized me into believing "something bad" would happen if I didn't. One of my children was baptized in the Catholic church for one reason only: it made her great-grandmother so damned happy. When we went to talk to the priest beforehand, my husband kept a death grip on my wrist to prevent me from lunging across the desk at the pompous asshole.

I feel for you so much, Ryan. Right now, you're trying to shove a square peg (you) into a round hole (the Church) and it's going to be painful.

Personal theology is something you work on your whole life. In a way, it's like ordering from the menu at a Chinese restaurant. "One from column A, two from colum B...let's skip over the shit in colum C, it sucks...and an eggroll."

In Wiccas, infants have a "wiccaning," but you can't dedicate yourself to the Goddess until you're an adult. A wiccaning is more of a family celebration of the new life and a promise to give it their absolutely best shot in raising said child.

No fear, no threats of eternal damnation, just love. The Goddess loves you because you exist. All you had to do to earn the love of the Goddess was show up. If you "sin," well, the sun will come up tomorrow and you take another shot at life. (That's the short version. The only sin we have, really, is hurting another person or youself on purpose.)

It isn't as easy as it sounds. Being nice and being careful with people and the planet all the time is a real bitch when you put it in practice 24/7.

And for those who might be wondering, I'm not proselitizing. I'm just talking. I know the pain Ryan is going through because I went through it myself.

The Methodists have rocking cool commercials on television here. They might be worth a shot. They do baptisms, too.

ahahahahhahahahahahahhahaha

For the love of fuck ahahahahhahahahahhahahahaha

Everytime I think to myself you can't get any crazier , you go and surprise me



LOL

[RyanLanane]

Originally Posted by SykkBoy

How? Who's morals and boundaries of what should and shouldn't be written about should we use? Yours? Pat Robertson's? Who's? How is your free speech any more important than that of someone who's speech you don't agree with or are offended by?

Sykk you insinuated I felt 'every erotic story written from now on only be about two people having sex out of love for each other and to procreate and make a baby'

I never said anything on my thoughts about what should or shouldn't be 'legal' to be written about aside from my statement as to how I felt regarding literary child porn.. I still feel it is seriously fucked up - and ALWAYS WILL!

That being said, I can see everyone's elses stance as well now..

Have you ever been pissed off cause someone hit on your wife or girlfriend with you sitting at the bar? Knee Jerk reaction, saw something that pissed me off and posted my thoughts as to that particular subject, never elaborated to the point of making anyone feel I was a prude. Atleast I hope not...

[SykkBoy]

Originally Posted by RyanLanane

Sykk you insinuated I felt 'every erotic story written from now on only be about two people having sex out of love for each other and to procreate and make a baby'

I never said anything on my thoughts about what should or shouldn't be 'legal' to be written about aside from my statement as to how I felt regarding literary child porn.. I still feel it is seriously fucked up - and ALWAYS WILL!

That being said, I can see everyone's elses stance as well now..

Have you ever been pissed off cause someone hit on your wife or girlfriend with you sitting at the bar? Knee Jerk reaction, saw something that pissed me off and posted my thoughts as to that particular subject, never elaborated to the point of making anyone feel I was a prude. Atleast I hope not...

nah, I didn't mean it that way, it's just when you start giving in on this sort of thing, it has a way of snowballing.

It's not that literary child porn doesn't offend me. As the father of 2 daughter and 2 sons, it does, but that doesn't mean it should be any less protected than me writing a fictional story about a couple hooking up for a quickie at work....

Besides, if trash like that is protected, then it shows how well protected other subjects are (and should be). Like I said, it's not always easy being a champion of free speech, especially when it's speech I don't agree with or I find distasteful.

[Dravyk]

It's the same as when the staunch, conservative, "gray lady" herself, The New York Times joined amicus curiae (friend of the court) on the side of Larry Flynt versus the government. Talk about the two extremes of the publishing world! They did so because of precedent. Same applies here.