Homegrown remembers when...

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

The easiest way to see the effects of long clip tubes sites on the business is to look at what those sites are selling. Hint: They ain't selling porn.

What they are doing is turning porn into the throwaway, the gimmie, the gimmick that gets people in the door. It isn't what they are intending to sell. They are trying to sell dating, cams, and just about any well paying scam of the month.

If their intention was to sell porn, they would do it with short clips. When they are putting up long clips, full scenes, or full scenes split over a couple of files you know that their intention isn't to sell porn.

So every time you allow a video of yours to run on one of these sites, you are teaching more people not to pay for porn (it's a freebie!) and you are degrading the value of your content and back catalog with it.

Short term, you might see some sales, but in the long run, a whole generation is learning not to pay.

Crap-

Let's dial this clock back.
This EXACT same scenario started 25 years ago.

From '85-94, I owned a chain of video stores in Central PA. We had an adult room, and that's where the profit was.

And we had new releases, and we had cheap stuff. And even today, ALL the studios sell DVDs for a $1 or less wholesale. It's called a "loss leader."
Sell the cheap stuff for next to nothing, get them in the "store," and sell them something else. Next time you walk in a drug store, explain why they are selling motor oil, and candy?

A (legitimate) tube site is just the same thing. Piracy is theft, plain and simple. But there are some awful; fuzzy licensing deals in this industry, and there is "fair use" in marketing a product. I don't know that any of that explains the current situation, but neither does anyone else. Certainly not another vendor that happens to be on the site, selling their product through the same "store front."

Personally, tube sites don't help, or hurt my business. I can understand why it worries website owners that have been selling someone else's products for years, through a nicely designed website, and making 50+% on others' work, with no value added.

Maybe it's time to take a hard look at the "membership model" websites have been doing for years? You had a great run, but the market is changing.


When I grew up TV was "Free." We had an antenna, and a rotor, and we were forced to watch 10 minutes per hour in commercials to "pay" for the content. Now, people pay upwards of $200/month for this same "free" TV model, with 20+ minutes of commercials. Who is complaining about THAT rip off?

Point being, markets change, adapt or die. But don't blame the public that wants something for free because we taught them that. You might as well shake your fist at the sun for giving you a sunburn.

(Nobody is gonna like this, but it's true)

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by Toby

I have no idea who you're referring to. Brazzers is on the list. They're the owners of Pornhub, Tube8, Keezmovies and Extremetube. If you're aware of other major sponsors/producers that own/operate illegal tube sites then by all means name them and show me the evidence they're connected. I'll add them to my blacklist.

Not every sponsor on my blacklist is there for the same reason. In fact most are there due to overly aggressive pre-checked cross sales.

It would be inappropriate of me to name them for several reasons, not least of which, is, I'm not privy to the details of the situation, only what I read in the media. Smart fellow like you will probably have it come to you. And frankly, I'd prefer you didn't ask me to confirm it when it does.

So I choose NOT to attack other people, even when I know for a fact they are using others' intellectual property in a way I don't approve of. It's Not my place to tell them how to run their business.

[softball]

Originally Posted by Far-L

You are another sophist. All you are doing is making colorful and insulting analogies that may or may not fitly describe the situation... but you sound clever making them I will give you that... no matter how insulting they are.

Didn't you used to go buy a different name in the amateur masters board heydey? Why did you change it? I find that... highly... suspicious.

You call Acacia a tempest in a teapot? Then for one that proves how little you know and basically reveals how seriously you should be considered in your opinion. Tell that to Time Warner, AOL, or any of the other parties in the case and see if they agree with you.

You only are trying to disparage me with highly personal attacks just like back in the day. Some things never change. Working with the tubes we work with doesn't make me "bad". You may not agree with it but you have yet to make one real point that makes one iota of sense on deeper inspection.

For example, let me take your silly crack analogy and twist it another way... who is more ethical, the dealer that sells uncut product in a free society where drugs are legal or the cop that plants drugs on a suspect to make a bust in a society where those same drugs are illegal? I see you as the dirty cop.

I have never condoned stealing content and for any of you to infer otherwise is just plain wrong.

So, you either think I am wise and philisophical or specious. I will assume the former, though I am sure, as your rhetoric implies, you mean the latter.
I have to take acception. I actually tell it like I see it and talk it like I walk it. Sooooo.....Acacia? Time Warner et al? Even big companies can be intimidated. I have always thought and still do, that patent was going to crash and burn one way or the other. That whole deal was up to you. At the time, I offered two thousand dollars to support that fight and never heard back from your little coalition. Talk to your good friend JMM....perhaps he had something to do with that. another stellar individual and close friend of yours.
And yes....as Toby says, theft is theft and you have been caught with your fingers in the cookie jar.
And, as I said before, this theft that you are defending is more harmful to the business than Acacia ever was. The worst that could have happened with them was license fees. This shit that Homegrown is supporting by propping up thieves, is actually putting people out of business. I just shake my head that a company like yours continues to defend this.

you may not agree with it but you have yet to make one real point that makes one iota of sense on deeper inspection.

Bullshit.

Didn't you used to go buy a different name in the amateur masters board heydey? Why did you change it? I find that... highly... suspicious

.
Buy a name? What does that mean????lololol
And what is suspicious exactly?

I gotta admit, you still post like the old days with your non oxford dictionary. Words as weapons.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

When I grew up TV was "Free." We had an antenna, and a rotor, and we were forced to watch 10 minutes per hour in commercials to "pay" for the content. Now, people pay upwards of $200/month for this same "free" TV model, with 20+ minutes of commercials. Who is complaining about THAT rip off?

Point being, markets change, adapt or die. But don't blame the public that wants something for free because we taught them that. You might as well shake your fist at the sun for giving you a sunburn.

(Nobody is gonna like this, but it's true)

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on the TV thing. First off, TV was never "FREE!", it was just without apparent cost. But first, you had to buy a receiver (often expensive), and you have to power it, and then you had to sit through commercials. You paid for TV with your attention.

Plenty of people are complaining about paying high dollars for "FREE!" tv, usually until you tell them to stick an antenna outside and see what they get. They would miss their A&E, FX, ESPN, CNN, and all those other channels that they get.

Cable or Sat isn't selling you TV, they are selling you reception.

As for "markets change", I get in to this discussion often enough in the mainstream world. The simple fact is if nobody is paying for porn, porn will no longer be made at the same level it is made now. The current situation is untenable for both sides, because the tubes are entirely reliant on low to no cost high quality porn they can push to sell their dating and cam shows, and the porn companies aren't making enough money to keep making the porn. If and when the porn business can no longer supply the content, both sides fail.

As I have said to many before, I can't help but thinking that porn (and news, and other things) will all move to "pay per view" or "pay per use" environments, and get out of the types of "FREE!" promotions that aren't doing anything but helping other industries who have no intention of paying for the content to start with.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

The easiest way to see the effects of long clip tubes sites on the business is to look at what those sites are selling. Hint: They ain't selling porn.

What they are doing is turning porn into the throwaway, the gimmie, the gimmick that gets people in the door. It isn't what they are intending to sell. They are trying to sell dating, cams, and just about any well paying scam of the month.

If their intention was to sell porn, they would do it with short clips. When they are putting up long clips, full scenes, or full scenes split over a couple of files you know that their intention isn't to sell porn.

So every time you allow a video of yours to run on one of these sites, you are teaching more people not to pay for porn (it's a freebie!) and you are degrading the value of your content and back catalog with it.

Short term, you might see some sales, but in the long run, a whole generation is learning not to pay.

Ok, thanks for actually saying something intelligent and not making a personal attack on me.

I thought the same thing about free content years ago. I couldn't believe people would give away, gasp, photos of cumshots... ie, the MONEY SHOT!!! I thought why pay when you could get free money all day long. Well, that of course turned out not to be the case, and today I doesn't seem different. I say that because why would any of the tube traffic convert for us? And sometimes converts really well under the circumstances...

I have used the example before and I will use it again here. Free tv and pay tv. You can catch Sopranos for free edited and years after it played on HBO unedited. That is essentially how people are using the tubes. Most, like us, "recycle" the content in tubes but it is no where near the quality people find inside Homegrown. Nor is there any where near the kind of customer service and member experience. Now I agree that sites that don't have what we have or do what we do will be hurt by tubes in the manner you describe, but that was no different during the height of tgp/mgp when customers would get inside certain member areas and think... "wtf, I have seen all this stuff already for free!" Am I supposed to be struggling to worry about those site's programs? Sorry, but no. The sooner they disappear the better for every single quality membership based site as far as I am concerned.

The time tested adage of you get what you pay for still applies, imo.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

Far-L, you can justify this in your own mind any way you wish, but the fact is that you are doing business with content thieves who are exploiting the traffic generated by the unauthoriized use of stolen content for financial gain. This isn't just my opinion, but based on numerous public discsussions on multiple boards over the last several years it's the prevailing opinion within the industry.

What TGP/MGP did in the distant past is irrelevant. And for the record, I've never knowingly traded traffic with other TGPs that were using stolen content. There hasn't been much stolen content on TGP's in many many years.

What is relevant is what Pornhub is doing today.

I can see you're too deeply invested in your position at this point to change it, so there is but one thing left for me to do. I shall add Homegrown to my blacklisted sponsors alongside Brazzers, AFF, Dee's Evil Empire, Incredible Dollars,Twistys, Kink.com and some others. I will not promote, nor will I accept galleries from others that promote these sponsors. I'm just one small webmaster, but I know there are others that feel the same about doing biz with Pornhub.

lol. Busted. You can't be that oblivious or that much in denial can you? The relevance is very much the point and exactly why you come out looking like an even bigger hypocrate to deny it. You are in essence saying, "if I didn't know about it or it happened in the past then as far as you are concerned it didn't happen." Sounds like kind of loosey goosey moral authority as far as I am concerned.

Sorry to hear we are blacklisted from something that never ever supported us one bit in the first place. I can see your efforts against those other programs have been highly successful.

Guess I better go back to doing gang bangs for $50 bucks a pop in LA.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

So, you either think I am wise and philisophical or specious. I will assume the former, though I am sure, as your rhetoric implies, you mean the latter.
I have to take acception. I actually tell it like I see it and talk it like I walk it. Sooooo.....Acacia? Time Warner et al? Even big companies can be intimidated. I have always thought and still do, that patent was going to crash and burn one way or the other. That whole deal was up to you. At the time, I offered two thousand dollars to support that fight and never heard back from your little coalition. Talk to your good friend JMM....perhaps he had something to do with that. another stellar individual and close friend of yours.
And yes....as Toby says, theft is theft and you have been caught with your fingers in the cookie jar.
And, as I said before, this theft that you are defending is more harmful to the business than Acacia ever was. The worst that could have happened with them was license fees. This shit that Homegrown is supporting by propping up thieves, is actually putting people out of business. I just shake my head that a company like yours continues to defend this.


Bullshit.


.
Buy a name? What does that mean????lololol
And what is suspicious exactly?

I gotta admit, you still post like the old days with your non oxford dictionary. Words as weapons.

Leave it to you to start hammering for my late night typos after playing 5 hours of hockey. Get off the sauce, rummy. You aren't adding anything to this discussion other than your bilious nature. If you have nothing to say other than I made a grammatical mistake then you have already revealed that your contribution to this business discussion is just a bunch of bluster to try sounding important and superior.

By the way, that comment about offering money to the defense group is an utter and complete lie. What did you do? Post in a thread that you would help? So what, so did a hundred other people that never did any more than make that claim to look like they were "behind us". You never contacted us. My phone and email was, is, and will always be easy to find. You never offered money. Maybe you thought you did that during one of your drunken stupors but I assure you that is incorrect.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

lol. Busted. You can't be that oblivious or that much in denial can you? The relevance is very much the point and exactly why you come out looking like an even bigger hypocrate to deny it. You are in essence saying, "if I didn't know about it or it happened in the past then as far as you are concerned it didn't happen." Sounds like kind of loosey goosey moral authority as far as I am concerned.

Sorry to hear we are blacklisted from something that never ever supported us one bit in the first place. I can see your efforts against those other programs have been highly successful.

Guess I better go back to doing gang bangs for $50 bucks a pop in LA.

Give me a fuckin' break and quit evading the damn issue. I'm not oblivious nor am I denying that it happened. The fact that it happened isn't at issue unless you think I personally did biz with them and am therefore no longer credible. I did not then and I do not now. I check out my trade partners pretty closely. I can't recall the last time I found stolen content on a TGP requesting a trade.

I have had a few galleries submitted to my TGPs with stolen content. Those submitters were immediately blacklisted and other TGP owners where they submitted were notified, as well as the owner of the content and the site they were trying to promote with the stolen content.

The TGP past is irrelevant because it's not currently at issue. What is at issue is that Pornhub currently contains mostly stolen content and you don't seem to have any qualms about doing business with them. If the stolen content was in their past, but they were running a clean site today, we wouldn't be having this disussion.

Pornhub is dirty now, and you are doing business with them now. That's the only issue that is relevant.

[RawAlex]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Ok, thanks for actually saying something intelligent and not making a personal attack on me.

I thought the same thing about free content years ago. I couldn't believe people would give away, gasp, photos of cumshots... ie, the MONEY SHOT!!! I thought why pay when you could get free money all day long. Well, that of course turned out not to be the case, and today I doesn't seem different. I say that because why would any of the tube traffic convert for us? And sometimes converts really well under the circumstances...

I have used the example before and I will use it again here. Free tv and pay tv. You can catch Sopranos for free edited and years after it played on HBO unedited. That is essentially how people are using the tubes. Most, like us, "recycle" the content in tubes but it is no where near the quality people find inside Homegrown. Nor is there any where near the kind of customer service and member experience. Now I agree that sites that don't have what we have or do what we do will be hurt by tubes in the manner you describe, but that was no different during the height of tgp/mgp when customers would get inside certain member areas and think... "wtf, I have seen all this stuff already for free!" Am I supposed to be struggling to worry about those site's programs? Sorry, but no. The sooner they disappear the better for every single quality membership based site as far as I am concerned.

The time tested adage of you get what you pay for still applies, imo.

I think though you are denying one reality: It isn't your old content that is on tube sites (and / or out on torrents), it is the brand new stuff.

Example, I wrote a blog entry yesterday about content that a sponsor had just added hours before. When I went to check, the content was indexed into Google on tube sites and on torrents, literally within hours of it's release.

Your content isn't any more or any less protected than that. I am sure that you can find content that is only weeks old already widely available for free, in full.

Tube sites that work with illegal or questionably sourced material, who play exceptionally long clips, etc, are not doing you any favors. They aren't giving you promotion, they are giving your valuable product away, and lowering it's market price. Heck, with over exposure, it could even lose it's actual value.

If you were talking about only 4 or 5 year old content, perhaps you might have a point. But fresh content is out there, and you appear to be saying that it isn't important that you support or work with one of the tube sites with the dirtiest hands of all.

http://www.pornhub.com/view_video.ph...key=2076915176

How much porn is being promoted here? NONE. They already know what you are denying, that their customers know that the market value of porn is zero. 81 minute video? No problem, we aren't selling porn, we are selling adult friend finder and bigger penises. There isn't a single porn link out of there. That should tell you everything you need to know. You are not getting promotion, you are getting used. That they happen to use lube instead of dry humping your corporate ass doesn't really change the result, just how much you think it hurts.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on the TV thing. First off, TV was never "FREE!", it was just without apparent cost. But first, you had to buy a receiver (often expensive), and you have to power it, and then you had to sit through commercials. You paid for TV with your attention.

Plenty of people are complaining about paying high dollars for "FREE!" tv, usually until you tell them to stick an antenna outside and see what they get. They would miss their A&E, FX, ESPN, CNN, and all those other channels that they get.

Cable or Sat isn't selling you TV, they are selling you reception.

As for "markets change", I get in to this discussion often enough in the mainstream world. The simple fact is if nobody is paying for porn, porn will no longer be made at the same level it is made now. The current situation is untenable for both sides, because the tubes are entirely reliant on low to no cost high quality porn they can push to sell their dating and cam shows, and the porn companies aren't making enough money to keep making the porn. If and when the porn business can no longer supply the content, both sides fail.

As I have said to many before, I can't help but thinking that porn (and news, and other things) will all move to "pay per view" or "pay per use" environments, and get out of the types of "FREE!" promotions that aren't doing anything but helping other industries who have no intention of paying for the content to start with.

In your assessment of "free tv" you claim that it wasn't free because you had to pay for the reciever, antenna, etc. and that is essentially "paying for reception" too, right? Well, cable makes you pay a premium for reception AND content. However, also in your example the content providers never profited from which tv or antenna you bought, while cable operators do pay the content providers for subscriptions, even if they are collected as "packages" or "bundles" of content including the channels you named.

I agree that pay per use or view will always be strong, but I also think that a premium can be charged for a quality member experience... as long as membership has its privileges so to speak. I believe it is human nature to strive for elite and privileged experiences, entertainment or otherwise.

C'mon... after sex can be free, right? So why do people pay for it. Even billionaires. Even movie stars. And so on, throughout history.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

Give me a fuckin' break and quit evading the damn issue. I'm not oblivious nor am I denying that it happened. The fact that it happened isn't at issue unless you think I personally did biz with them and am therefore no longer credible. I did not then and I do not now. I check out my trade partners pretty closely. I can't recall the last time I found stolen content on a TGP requesting a trade.

I have had a few galleries submitted to my TGPs with stolen content. Those submitters were immediately blacklisted and other TGP owners where they submitted were notified, as well as the owner of the content and the site they were trying to promote with the stolen content.

The TGP past is irrelevant because it's not currently at issue. What is at issue is that Pornhub currently contains mostly stolen content and you don't seem to have any qualms about doing business with them. If the stolen content was in their past, but they were running a clean site today, we wouldn't be having this disussion.

Pornhub is dirty now, and you are doing business with them now. That's the only issue that is relevant.

Precisely my point. What tgp's did you work with? All the top ones that I know of admit openly that they started with unauthorized content. If you did business with any of them then you knowingly or unknowingly, doesn't matter which, worked with admitted scammers. Now you want to sit in a glass house and throw stones at me like you are somehow superior. What makes that worse is you think that because it happened yesterday instead of today makes a difference. Well, to the truly ethical person it does not.

I don't know what content is or is not authorized on Pornhub. All I know is that they have proactively and professionally and responsibly handled my issues with our content being used without permission. And that is what we use as a measure of whether or not they are intentionally stealing OUR content. Other companies may have had a different experience, but that is their matter as a company to deal with. Maybe the Pink Visual lawsuit will prove otherwise and I can see the situation in more black and white terms like you so clearly do. When that day comes, if it comes, because I doubt it will, then I will be happy to admit my wrongness.

Until then, do me a favor and lay off your baseless accusations and admit your own "unclean hands".

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Precisely my point. What tgp's did you work with? All the top ones that I know of admit openly that they started with unauthorized content.

My first TGP didn't go online until 2004. It and all but my most recent are narrow niche fetish wear specific. I don't trade with large general category TGP's. I trade with other niche relevant TGPs. Even if some of them were involved in content theft years ago, I still fail to see what that has to do with today. If they're clean now, and have been so for years, then their traffic today is clean.

Stolen content on TGPs hasn't been more than an isolated issue for many years, ever since sponsor hosted galleries became the norm.

Originally Posted by Far-L

Until then, do me a favor and lay off your baseless accusations and admit your own "unclean hands".

My hands are clean, and your attempts to discredit me rather than address the real issue have become rather transparent.

[tony404]

right or wrong gonzo should give far-l a free banner on oprano. I dont remember ever seeing a 3 page thread here. lol

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

My first TGP didn't go online until 2004. It and all but my most recent are narrow niche fetish wear specific. I don't trade with large general category TGP's. I trade with other niche relevant TGPs. Even if some of them were involved in content theft years ago, I still fail to see what that has to do with today. If they're clean now, and have been so for years, then their traffic today is clean.

Stolen content on TGPs hasn't been more than an isolated issue for many years, ever since sponsor hosted galleries became the norm.

My hands are clean, and your attempts to discredit me rather than address the real issue have become rather transparent.

So, you are ok with those tgp that "cleaned up their act". Well, as far as I can tell, all the tubes we are working with seem to be making the same effort so what is the difference? Degrees of cleanliness? That is like degrees of pregnancy as far as I am concerned. You either are clean or you are not and if you are not then how you deal with it is what look at and what I deal with accordingly... just like you apparently.

I successfully discredited you already so doing so again at this point is useless. I have responded to your allegation directly by concrete historical examples and I didn't rely on any sort of insinuation or personal insult to try and disparage you unfairly, as you have been doing to me.

I have dealt with our unauthorized usage and I continue to do so. I have been very proactive about protecting our content. If anyone does not respond to our request for removal then we get very upset and seek legal remedy immediately. We work with tubes that are proactively removing our unauthorized content and fairly promoting our authorized content. My job is not to protect my competition's content as that responsibility rests on them. That is my position. I am not ducking or avoiding anything. Take it or leave it.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by tony404

right or wrong gonzo should give far-l a free banner on oprano. I dont remember ever seeing a 3 page thread here. lol

You havent been around here a long time Tony. Threads have pushed 30 pages or more until we all got busy working other ways besides the economics of piss.

This is a heated topic and its being aggressively debated. The difference is that most of the people debating actually know each other as opposed to being keyboard warriors.

They are also businessmen who have a degree of respect for each other.

That being said Farrell is my oldest friend in this business and he knows how to get in contact with me should he need to for any reason.

Toby is someone that I have met in the last 5 years or more that I respect as well as Graham.

Its a good debate.... you have Farrell representing HGV as a studio.... Graham who represents the individual director/ content producer and Toby whos role is a pure affiliate.

At this point I have nothing constructive to add so Im reading just like you are.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by gonzo

You havent been around here a long time Tony. Threads have pushed 30 pages or more until we all got busy working other ways besides the economics of piss.

This is a heated topic and its being aggressively debated. The difference is that most of the people debating actually know each other as opposed to being keyboard warriors.

They are also businessmen who have a degree of respect for each other.

That being said Farrell is my oldest friend in this business and he knows how to get in contact with me should he need to for any reason.

Toby is someone that I have met in the last 5 years or more that I respect as well as Graham.

Its a good debate.... you have Farrell representing HGV as a studio.... Graham who represents the individual director/ content producer and Toby whos role is a pure affiliate.

At this point I have nothing constructive to add so Im reading just like you are.

Thanks, I just want to add for the sake of clarity that I am a program owner/partner, content producer, and the affiliate of many other programs... and have been around long enough to see this debate come up time and time again. Really, there are two debates here, free vs pay, and authorized vs stolen. For me, the first is full of varying shades of grey while the other is black and white. The problem is the line between the two debates gets blurred by emotions like anger and anxiety.

As an aside... One has only to plumb the old amateur board archives to see that I have been down the piss trail with Graham on more that one occasion. Nothing new there.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

So, you are ok with those tgp that "cleaned up their act". Well, as far as I can tell, all the tubes we are working with seem to be making the same effort so what is the difference? Degrees of cleanliness? That is like degrees of pregnancy as far as I am concerned. You either are clean or you are not and if you are not then how you deal with it is what look at and what I deal with accordingly... just like you apparently.

I successfully discredited you already so doing so again at this point is useless. I have responded to your allegation directly by concrete historical examples and I didn't rely on any sort of insinuation or personal insult to try and disparage you unfairly, as you have been doing to me.

I have dealt with our unauthorized usage and I continue to do so. I have been very proactive about protecting our content. If anyone does not respond to our request for removal then we get very upset and seek legal remedy immediately. We work with tubes that are proactively removing our unauthorized content and fairly promoting our authorized content. My job is not to protect my competition's content as that responsibility rests on them. That is my position. I am not ducking or avoiding anything. Take it or leave it.

You've not done a thing to discredit me but attempt to make general references to past practices of a some old TGPs that I've never had any dealings with. Your examples have nothing at all to do with doing business in the here and now with content thieves. I would have had the same issues with doing business with those old TGP sites when they were content thieves. (BTW, damn few of them still exist, and those few that do remain are mostly under different ownership. The only thing still the same about the majoirity of those sites is the domain name)

I'm not currently dealing with thieves, nor have I knowingly done so in the past. If Porhub et al were truly trying to clean up their act, all of the unauthorized clips would be gone from their sites. Until then, they are in the content theft business. No grey area, no degrees of clean. Either there is a large quantity of stolen content on their sites or there is not. At this point the vast majority of clips on their sites is still stolen content.

As for having dealings with those that were shady in the past, they'd first need to demonstrate they can operate a clean site for a substantial time. As I stated earlier, content theft on TGPs is ancient history, it hasn't been an issue in many many years so the point is more or less moot.

You can keep dancing with the Devil, but sooner or later there will be a price to pay.

P.S. That old amateur board no longer exists, the archive is long gone, only the domain survives, much like those old TGPs.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

You've not done a thing to discredit me but attempt to make general references to past practices of a some old TGPs that I've never had any dealings with. Your examples have nothing at all to do with doing business in the here and now with content thieves. I would have had the same issues with doing business with those old TGP sites when they were content thieves. (BTW, damn few of them still exist, and those few that do remain are mostly under different ownership. The only thing still the same about the majoirity of those sites is the domain name)

I'm not currently dealing with thieves, nor have I knowingly done so in the past. If Porhub et al were truly trying to clean up their act, all of the unauthorized clips would be gone from their sites. Until then, they are in the content theft business. No grey area, no degrees of clean. Either there is a large quantity of stolen content on their sites or there is not. At this point the vast majority of clips on their sites is still stolen content.

As for having dealings with those that were shady in the past, they'd first need to demonstrate they can operate a clean site for a substantial time. As I stated earlier, content theft on TGPs is ancient history, it hasn't been an issue in many many years so the point is more or less moot.

You can keep dancing with the Devil, but sooner or later there will be a price to pay.

P.S. That old amateur board no longer exists, the archive is long gone, only the domain survives, much like those old TGPs.

Ok, so as long as you didn't knowingly deal with thieves you are somehow superior? Ok. Tell that one to the judge.

How much of Pornhub is stolen content? Please tell me something specific and not based on hearsay. I don't know. All I know is they take our stuff down when asked if it goes up and they replace it with our branded version. Sounds like they are making an effort to clean up. If not, then hopefully that Pink Visual lawsuit will make it clear for you, me, and everyone else that has a dog in this fight.

But seriously, you still need remedial courses in logic and ethics.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Ok, so as long as you didn't knowingly deal with thieves you are somehow superior? Ok. Tell that one to the judge.

How much of Pornhub is stolen content? Please tell me something specific and not based on hearsay. I don't know. All I know is they take our stuff down when asked if it goes up and they replace it with our branded version. Sounds like they are making an effort to clean up. If not, then hopefully that Pink Visual lawsuit will make it clear for you, me, and everyone else that has a dog in this fight.

But seriously, you still need remedial courses in logic and ethics.

Scanning through the clips on that site, assuming the most recent week of uploads are an accurate sampling, then about 80% or more of the clips are from unauthorized sources. If you want a more accurate figure from another source then maybe Gonzo can get Eric from RemoveYourContent to give his estimate on that figure.

I'll take the remedial course recommendation under advisement, but since you're the only one in my nearly 50 years on this planet to question my logic or my ethics I just don't see that happening.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Thanks, I just want to add for the sake of clarity that I am a program owner/partner, content producer, and the affiliate of many other programs... and have been around long enough to see this debate come up time and time again. Really, there are two debates here, free vs pay, and authorized vs stolen. For me, the first is full of varying shades of grey while the other is black and white. The problem is the line between the two debates gets blurred by emotions like anger and anxiety.

As an aside... One has only to plumb the old amateur board archives to see that I have been down the piss trail with Graham on more that one occasion. Nothing new there.

I have to wonder from my own experience what is it you are doing right that others are ineffective with concerning your content with Pornhub.

I know several studios that have tried getting a line of communication with them that couldnt even get a fuck you.

Maybe thats something to take constructively away from this debate.

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

That being said Ive unknowingly supported some scary billing practices in the past.

And I made my share of cash with Wegcash as they paid me for email addresses that I realized later were being collected to spam. That looks harmless now when you compare their free tube site that will recur to a $106 charge in 3 days if you were naive enough to give up a credit card.

It is apparent that each of us have to decide what the cost of doing business is and where to draw the line.

Ill have to honestly say I dont agree with what your doing but I dont think that makes you a bad person either.

All in all Im not one to judge as Im not in your shoes and I dont have the same business pressures as you.

What Im trying to say is that if some of us dont start to work together towards some solutions there isnt going to be much left to make a living with very soon.

Its not just the tube issue.

This industry as a whole has trained the consumer that in most cases they can get their jerk on for free. The ones left willing to pay for value live in fear of being hammered with a bunch of charges for things they didnt want.

Its a perfect storm if you add in the recession and the low bar of entry to make your own porno.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?

[gonzo]

ONe more thing as for Pornhub piracy...

This is a very interesting read

http://www.takedownpiracy.com/2010/0...ube-sites.html

[Hell Puppy]

Much as I hate it, the quote shows to be more and more true over time...

"Everyone has the ethics and morals they can afford..."

[Hell Puppy]

Everyone bitched when pic posts appeared because they gave away too much content...and overall conversion rates for the industry dropped slightly.

Then came thumb posts....those drew much more traffic! Everyone bitched, conversions dropped some more.

Then MGPs....same deal...

Now to draw the huge traffic, you give away full length clips on a tube site...MASSIVE traffic. But conversion rates are insane.

And as the number of customers drop, the temptation to milk every penny you can get off of the credit cards you do see is too much for many.

So how do we outdraw the tubes? HD Tubes? I haven't really dug, but I bet there are some out there. Or maybe we give private cam shows away for free.

We can bitch, moan and fight amongst ourselves, but the reality is we're circling the bowl.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

Scanning through the clips on that site, assuming the most recent week of uploads are an accurate sampling, then about 80% or more of the clips are from unauthorized sources. If you want a more accurate figure from another source then maybe Gonzo can get Eric from RemoveYourContent to give his estimate on that figure.

I'll take the remedial course recommendation under advisement, but since you're the only one in my nearly 50 years on this planet to question my logic or my ethics I just don't see that happening.

I will wait for Gonzo or Eric to give me something better than your assumption which is based on what? You saw a lot of content there? I can't tell. But seeing as how you are still content to condemn people based on circumstantial assumptions I will just add that to the list of reasons why your assessments of me and my business practices hold so little weight.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

I will wait for Gonzo or Eric to give me something better than your assumption which is based on what? You saw a lot of content there? I can't tell. But seeing as how you are still content to condemn people based on circumstantial assumptions I will just add that to the list of reasons why your assessments of me and my business practices hold so little weight.

Both RawAlex and myself have told you how to tell which videos are stolen. You just have to open your eyes and look. 80% is a conservative estimate.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Far-L

I will wait for Gonzo or Eric to give me something better than your assumption which is based on what? You saw a lot of content there? I can't tell. But seeing as how you are still content to condemn people based on circumstantial assumptions I will just add that to the list of reasons why your assessments of me and my business practices hold so little weight.

I only know what studios told me last year when I was talking with them lat year as we were developing marketing for RealTouch.

Eric works with this every day and all day. Ill see if he has some stats but he keeps a low profile as would I.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by gonzo

I have to wonder from my own experience what is it you are doing right that others are ineffective with concerning your content with Pornhub.

I know several studios that have tried getting a line of communication with them that couldnt even get a fuck you.

Maybe thats something to take constructively away from this debate.

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

That being said Ive unknowingly supported some scary billing practices in the past.

And I made my share of cash with Wegcash as they paid me for email addresses that I realized later were being collected to spam. That looks harmless now when you compare their free tube site that will recur to a $106 charge in 3 days if you were naive enough to give up a credit card.

It is apparent that each of us have to decide what the cost of doing business is and where to draw the line.

Ill have to honestly say I dont agree with what your doing but I dont think that makes you a bad person either.

All in all Im not one to judge as Im not in your shoes and I dont have the same business pressures as you.

What Im trying to say is that if some of us dont start to work together towards some solutions there isnt going to be much left to make a living with very soon.

Its not just the tube issue.

This industry as a whole has trained the consumer that in most cases they can get their jerk on for free. The ones left willing to pay for value live in fear of being hammered with a bunch of charges for things they didnt want.

Its a perfect storm if you add in the recession and the low bar of entry to make your own porno.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?

Ok, this is chock full of stuff to respond to and I may not get to it all but here goes:

What worked for me was simply sugar instead of vinegar, a professional approach that was simple, direct, and succinct. "We don't want our content up without permission and request that you remove it, and, btw, since our content seems so popular on your site why don't we find a way that is mutually profitable". Something along those lines has been highly effective for us. I often received responses like "thank you for your professional demeanor, yes we will work with you, and this is a better approach than the hate mail we typically get..."

Next, I don't expect everyone to do what we do or agree with what we do. Everyone is free to choose their own path in this admittedly difficult arena. I resisted tgp and mgp for a long time, and that cost us dearly in the long run. For us, in this case, I was not going to make the same mistake we made last time. The whole tube debate is fraught with "damned if we do, damned if we don't". That is what makes it so difficult for companies in our position. In our case, we have decided that we are going to make the best of a bad situation and try to survive. Our business model has had to flex and bend and contort many times over the years. What worked yesterday may be tomorrow's downfall. That is true in any industry.

However, I came into this business having studied a very successful grassroots business that thrived on so-called "free content". As a huge Grateful Dead fan I can essentially get any recording of any show I want for free. So why do I pay for their content? The answer lies in premium quality and excellent service and a user experience that justifies me laying out the cash. Based on those principles, I feel that "free content" is never going to wipe out "paid content". More than likely, only those that don't deliver the whole kip and kaboodle will be gone tomorrow and to me that is not a problem but a perk.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

Both RawAlex and myself have told you how to tell which videos are stolen. You just have to open your eyes and look. 80% is a conservative estimate.

Because you don't see a link? What about the traffic trades with "our friends"? How about the possibility that they actually did license some of the material. You are making a causal inference based on circumstantial evidence. Doesn't hold up for me but you can run with it if it makes you feel better about your superiority complex and all.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Ok, this is chock full of stuff to respond to and I may not get to it all but here goes:

What worked for me was simply sugar instead of vinegar, a professional approach that was simple, direct, and succinct. "We don't want our content up without permission and request that you remove it, and, btw, since our content seems so popular on your site why don't we find a way that is mutually profitable". Something along those lines has been highly effective for us. I often received responses like "thank you for your professional demeanor, yes we will work with you, and this is a better approach than the hate mail we typically get..."

Next, I don't expect everyone to do what we do or agree with what we do. Everyone is free to choose their own path in this admittedly difficult arena. I resisted tgp and mgp for a long time, and that cost us dearly in the long run. For us, in this case, I was not going to make the same mistake we made last time. The whole tube debate is fraught with "damned if we do, damned if we don't". That is what makes it so difficult for companies in our position. In our case, we have decided that we are going to make the best of a bad situation and try to survive. Our business model has had to flex and bend and contort many times over the years. What worked yesterday may be tomorrow's downfall. That is true in any industry.

However, I came into this business having studied a very successful grassroots business that thrived on so-called "free content". As a huge Grateful Dead fan I can essentially get any recording of any show I want for free. So why do I pay for their content? The answer lies in premium quality and excellent service and a user experience that justifies me laying out the cash. Based on those principles, I feel that "free content" is never going to wipe out "paid content". More than likely, only those that don't deliver the whole kip and kaboodle will be gone tomorrow and to me that is not a problem but a perk.

I dont know what methodology studios use to communicate. I have found that many I have personally dealt with over the years STILL dont get the internet and could benefit from someone that knows how to work the problems we all face as well as doing some effective PR.

My experience is most use the National Enquirer approach by releasing a promo about having a porn vid of some dead rock guitarist or a statement on offering a mother of 8 a contract to be in a porn video.

I would agree with you on the premium quality issue except for one thing.
When you dont pay for content it frees up money to develop a better free experience than is available in some cases for pay.

I came into this business from the shareware mentality. You hold back something for your paying clients. A feature, the rest of the movie or behind the scenes.

Shareware gave away something for free as well as building goodwill with a base of fans that were potential customers. I know several guys back from the BBS era that became millionaires with this approach and the programs werent very complex.

Marshall Magee and AutoMenu come to mind.
You remember good ole Dos and the command prompt?
This program started out at $5 to register and heres how far it went well after he made his first million.

http://www.magee.com/magee/Automenu.htm

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Because you don't see a link? What about the traffic trades with "our friends"? How about the possibility that they actually did license some of the material. You are making a causal inference based on circumstantial evidence. Doesn't hold up for me but you can run with it if it makes you feel better about your superiority complex and all.

You're the only one that seems to be having issue acknowledging the fact that most of the content on Pornhub is stolen. I'm not just pulling this info out of thin air. Pornhub has been the topic of discussion many times on the various boards over the last several years with nearly every major producer/sponsor lamenting about their content on Pornhub.

Nearly all of the clips over about 7 or 8 minutes are unauthorized. I'm not aware of ANY sponsors allowing use of longer clips. The few licensed longer clips are pretty clearly watermarked. They're all older discounted broker content. The exact percentage of stolen content, whether it's 44.99% or 99.44% isn't really relevant anyway. What is relevant is that they have a large amount of stolen content on their sites and the presence of those longer clips is what is driving their traffic.

You're not going to believe anything I say, so go look for yourself, open your own eyes, just take off the blinders and rose colored glasses first. Look at how many clips have had the bottom portion stretched to remove the waterark. Look at how many clips are from known sources who produce their own exclusive content. It's not rocket science.

P.S. The better way to not make the same mistake as with tgp and mgp is to provide hosted FLV's for your affiliates.

[gonzo]

A moment of levity if I may.

I looked at the link Toby posted in the earlier thread and I have to wonder... if you go to work for Homegrown do you have to become a porn star?

[LadyMischief]

Originally Posted by gonzo

A moment of levity if I may.

I looked at the link Toby posted in the earlier thread and I have to wonder... if you go to work for Homegrown do you have to become a porn star?

Well I wouldn't say that, but I would say that if you work for Homegrown, you have to be free-spirited. Most of us HG folks embody what we love, sex, sensuality, sexuality, and the celebration of all that it is. It's not just a product we push or a service we offer, it's a lifestyle and a mindset first and foremost.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by gonzo

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?

Well, first of all, I gotta check some of my old BBS CDs.....


I've got a suggestion, and it's very simple;

The people that create a product do what they WANT with a product. The rest are subject to what they can build from the creator. But it still follows the golden rule.

And much like the buggy whip manufacturer of old, stop crying about getting an increasing share of a decreasing market, and start creating new markets.

That's how a free market works, lest we forget, 15 years ago, there was no industry for many here. (FAR-L was in the basically same Biz, though.)

[softball]

By the way, that comment about offering money to the defense group is an utter and complete lie.

Fuck you. I don't lie. You should know that by now. You might try and hunt down your old friend Jeff Miller whose ethics you seem to be emulating and ask him. Rummy? I think not. I just see through you and you hate it. That kind of slander is the last resort of the loser. And as far as I can see, you have painted yourself into a corner. BTW, I never pointed out a grammatical error in anything you posted. You just got trumped and trying to fob it off as a grammatical malfunction just sucks (pardon the simplicity). After a hard day of hiking in the mountains of Big Sur, I might be pardoned for not being as bellicose as you try and make me out when I point out what I see as the truth. The old Far-L would never have resorted to lying on a web board. The new Far-L is not as charming, witty or as astute. What the fuck happened to you. dude?

[softball]

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy

Much as I hate it, the quote shows to be more and more true over time...

"Everyone has the ethics and morals they can afford..."

Bingo

[softball]

Ill have to honestly say I dont agree with what your doing but I dont think that makes you a bad person either.

I agree, G. I don't think Far-L is a bad person. I totally disagree with what his company is doing and I think he is misguided and gets very angry when challenged and leads with his chin. But I am sure he is an entertaining fellow. I gotta say though, HG and companies that support content theft in any way are very bad for business and ethicsgo out the window when business is bad. Especially when you have a boatload of people depending on you for their rent cheques.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

I agree, G. I don't think Far-L is a bad person. I totally disagree with what his company is doing and I think he is misguided and gets very angry when challenged and leads with his chin. But I am sure he is an entertaining fellow. I gotta say though, HG and companies that support content theft in any way are very bad for business and ethicsgo out the window when business is bad. Especially when you have a boatload of people depending on you for their rent cheques.

We are all in the same boat if its 1 or 100 that depend on this for a living.

I do agree with creating new markets with products as well but for now I see no innovation.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

Fuck you. I don't lie. You should know that by now. You might try and hunt down your old friend Jeff Miller whose ethics you seem to be emulating and ask him. Rummy? I think not. I just see through you and you hate it. That kind of slander is the last resort of the loser. And as far as I can see, you have painted yourself into a corner. BTW, I never pointed out a grammatical error in anything you posted. You just got trumped and trying to fob it off as a grammatical malfunction just sucks (pardon the simplicity). After a hard day of hiking in the mountains of Big Sur, I might be pardoned for not being as bellicose as you try and make me out when I point out what I see as the truth. The old Far-L would never have resorted to lying on a web board. The new Far-L is not as charming, witty or as astute. What the fuck happened to you. dude?

lol. Nice try but if that is all you got then you are going to have to try a lot harder.

First, I was friendly with Jeff back in the day but I have neither seen or heard from the guy in many years so you can hardly call that a "friend". You can ask him about his involvement or lack thereof in our defense group. But if you made any sort of deal with Jeff I can assure you that he never brought it to the group, and I can also say that he has been out of the defense group for quite some time. You guys are great at assuming everything so I bet you can fill in your own details as to why.

How is it that you have added one single valuable thing, one small contribution of intelligent discourse, to this thread? Remind me, because I don't think anyone here is that impressed that you are trying to badger and belittle me like you were still in High School.

Btw... the rummy comment harkens back to the days when I used to have to put up with your self important drivel. You forget who I know and what I know about you. If you have cleaned up your act then bully for you.

You obviously haven't stopped being a self important bloated bag of wind. With an alias like "rhetorical" doesn't that say it all?

That was a rhetorical question.

[softball]

You forget who I know and what I know about you. If you have cleaned up your act then bully for you.

What the fuck are you talking about? Dude, have you considered anger management. First I was lying about my offer. Now you are not so sure.

because I don't think anyone here is that impressed that you are trying to badger and belittle me like you were still in High School.

I would say your anger is again getting the better of you. I think if you re read your rhetoric and the conclusions you jumped to, the shoe is clearly on your foot.
I dunno, Far-L you seem to be spinning out of control. Who put the bug up your ass and how come you are losing it so badly?

[softball]

I just re read this thread.....hmmmmm. With the state of this biz today (I think someone already said this, but hey I wanna say it again) this is not a time to be fighting like old housewives. Business is business and we all have to make a living. I personally disagree with the way HG is doing it and that is a matter for legitimate discussion. However, I also think that this thread is not doing anyone any good. I would like to apologize to Far-L for participating in the hair pulling. I would also like to say that Toby had a good point in bringing this topic up. I have nothing but respect for Toby and the way he does business.
Gonzo has done a great job of steering the ship. Many would have locked the thread or worse.
I am bowing out of this melee but I do think a lot of good arguments have been made and everyone knows my position which has remained steadfast since tgp's stole content as anyone who ever followed amateurmasters will attest.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Well, first of all, I gotta check some of my old BBS CDs.....


I've got a suggestion, and it's very simple;

The people that create a product do what they WANT with a product. The rest are subject to what they can build from the creator. But it still follows the golden rule.

And much like the buggy whip manufacturer of old, stop crying about getting an increasing share of a decreasing market, and start creating new markets.

That's how a free market works, lest we forget, 15 years ago, there was no industry for many here. (FAR-L was in the basically same Biz, though.)

Giving the house away is not some new hot business model. Sorry its just keeps diluting the value of porn. The problem is most who became successful on the net weren't brilliant but lucky. From the whole affiliate model, instead lets make a better product that people will want to sell and will convert.It was lets give them $100 a sign up.It was like a ponzi scheme that could only be sustained if the sign up numbers were high. They started to tank so then its lets bang the credit card and its because the affiliates want so much.If this was truly a smart industry when the economy slowed down. All free stuff should of been pulled back dramatically to make the value go up. But no its now give away full scenes on the hope they may buy. It all has a air of desperation to it. It's like from Casino "We had the world by the balls and we fucked it all up "
This statement has nothing to do with Far-L. Its all very short term and its sad.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by rhetorical

I just re read this thread.....hmmmmm. With the state of this biz today (I think someone already said this, but hey I wanna say it again) this is not a time to be fighting like old housewives. Business is business and we all have to make a living. I personally disagree with the way HG is doing it and that is a matter for legitimate discussion. However, I also think that this thread is not doing anyone any good. I would like to apologize to Far-L for participating in the hair pulling. I would also like to say that Toby had a good point in bringing this topic up. I have nothing but respect for Toby and the way he does business.
Gonzo has done a great job of steering the ship. Many would have locked the thread or worse.
I am bowing out of this melee but I do think a lot of good arguments have been made and everyone knows my position which has remained steadfast since tgp's stole content as anyone who ever followed amateurmasters will attest.

I expected the thread to be heated. And I also figured noone here would get down to making threats against the other... just a have a sitdown.

Most of us work with this all day everyday so its an important issue and always a lot of emotion involved when your talking about the way people make a living. Especially during a time when several have the potential to go bust.

This isnt GFY. I didnt allow traffic junkies to skin the board and ban anyone that didnt like it. And I dont have to label each thread as an educational seminar.

Hopefully this got everyone thinking and we can collectively figure a way back into profitability.

I leave you with this Xbiz article as a parting gift.

RedTube Wants to Start Serving Subpoenas After Email Threat

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by tony404

Giving the house away is not some new hot business model. Sorry its just keeps diluting the value of porn. The problem is most who became successful on the net weren't brilliant but lucky. From the whole affiliate model, instead lets make a better product that people will want to sell and will convert.It was lets give them $100 a sign up.It was like a ponzi scheme that could only be sustained if the sign up numbers were high. They started to tank so then its lets bang the credit card and its because the affiliates want so much.If this was truly a smart industry when the economy slowed down. All free stuff should of been pulled back dramatically to make the value go up. But no its now give away full scenes on the hope they may buy. It all has a air of desperation to it. It's like from Casino "We had the world by the balls and we fucked it all up "
This statement has nothing to do with Far-L. Its all very short term and its sad.

Not sure why you quoted me......
Are you giving an example of people "crying?"

(BTW-I participated in NONE of that crap. We don't do membership sites, free content giveaways, etc....)

[tony404]

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ

Not sure why you quoted me......
Are you giving an example of people "crying?"

(BTW-I participated in NONE of that crap. We don't do membership sites, free content giveaways, etc....)

Your statement reminded me of that adapt or die mantra that turns my stomach.

[EmporerEJ]

Originally Posted by tony404

Your statement reminded me of that adapt or die mantra that turns my stomach.

Ahhh, well yea.
That's a shame. Unfortunately, that seems to be the way it is.
The world doesn't work on a group hug.

[Far-L]

rhetorical - apology accepted. For the record, I was not and am not angry. Angry would sound more like "fuck you" for example... like, ahem, you... but which I never stooped to even though I feel you and Toby were very personal in your attacks on me directly. You should know from our old days of piss and glory on AM that I don't get angry and don't hold grudges in board warrior sparring.

Toby - I don't think I am the one wearing blinders or rose colored glasses and I could make a case that you are but it would really serve no purpose, would it? You have your position and I have mine. We don't do business with each other or compete in our niches. Your advice about hosted flv is sound but already something we are doing but thanks for mentioning it nonetheless.

Tony404 - I agree that some other practices have been far more destructive to customer trust and satisfaction, but on a positive note... we often hear from our customers that they are finally happy to find a site that doesn't treat them like others have and delivers more than what is promised with out viruses, bad billing, etc. These are the same customers that sometimes stay with us for years. Maybe I should be thanking all those assholes that pushed these tired of all the bullshit surfers into our arms?

Finally, for the record, we don't put up longer than 5 minute branded clips on Pornhub. They take down anything that is up without our branding. They get some content. We get some decent traffic. That is all there is to it. I can't be the police for other people's content. Sorry to sound calloused but I really don't care which of my competitor's sites go out of business because they gave away all their stuff. I consider that doing us a favor.

There are plenty of things that people can get easily for free but which they still choose to pay for. Remember, sex is after all free, so why do people still pay for it and why is selling it still referred to as the oldest profession?

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by gonzo

I expected the thread to be heated. And I also figured noone here would get down to making threats against the other... just a have a sitdown.

Most of us work with this all day everyday so its an important issue and always a lot of emotion involved when your talking about the way people make a living. Especially during a time when several have the potential to go bust.

This isnt GFY. I didnt allow traffic junkies to skin the board and ban anyone that didnt like it. And I dont have to label each thread as an educational seminar.

Hopefully this got everyone thinking and we can collectively figure a way back into profitability.

I leave you with this Xbiz article as a parting gift.

RedTube Wants to Start Serving Subpoenas After Email Threat

How moronic. Don't those idiots know that doing something like that will do more harm than good? Let the lawsuits run their course.

[tony404]

Originally Posted by Far-L

rhetorical - apology accepted. For the record, I was not and am not angry. Angry would sound more like "fuck you" for example... like, ahem, you... but which I never stooped to even though I feel you and Toby were very personal in your attacks on me directly. You should know from our old days of piss and glory on AM that I don't get angry and don't hold grudges in board warrior sparring.

Toby - I don't think I am the one wearing blinders or rose colored glasses and I could make a case that you are but it would really serve no purpose, would it? You have your position and I have mine. We don't do business with each other or compete in our niches. Your advice about hosted flv is sound but already something we are doing but thanks for mentioning it nonetheless.

Tony404 - I agree that some other practices have been far more destructive to customer trust and satisfaction, but on a positive note... we often hear from our customers that they are finally happy to find a site that doesn't treat them like others have and delivers more than what is promised with out viruses, bad billing, etc. These are the same customers that sometimes stay with us for years. Maybe I should be thanking all those assholes that pushed these tired of all the bullshit surfers into our arms?

Finally, for the record, we don't put up longer than 5 minute branded clips on Pornhub. They take down anything that is up without our branding. They get some content. We get some decent traffic. That is all there is to it. I can't be the police for other people's content. Sorry to sound calloused but I really don't care which of my competitor's sites go out of business because they gave away all their stuff. I consider that doing us a favor.

There are plenty of things that people can get easily for free but which they still choose to pay for. Remember, sex is after all free, so why do people still pay for it and why is selling it still referred to as the oldest profession?

We get the same thing.When I worked for Mercedes Benz they drummed into your head without the customer we are nothing. People forget that. We go out of our way for our customers, alot of them cancel thru us. We always ask why are you canceling and take the things to heart on what we can do better. Also if the reason was I lost my job or my hours were cut or im losing my home. We cancel them and also give them a month free and say thank you for being a customer. Many come back and join again and again.

[Far-L]

Now... unless anyone wants to still address the tube issues... let's return to our previously scheduled program...

I remember when Lightspeed's Tawnee Stone ruled the world of "solo girl" sites and she really was 18... well... closer to 18... within a decade of 18 shall we say.

[DannyCox]

I remember when this new little site called Persian Kitty asked us for a link exchange!