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Originally posted by [Labret]@Sep 18 2003, 02:43 AM
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one might point out that zionism began as a secular movement...in response to certain european countries "ideas" concerning people of the Jewish faith...
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Secular?
"the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty"
Zionism advocates theocracy plain and simple. Theocracy is the opposite of secular.
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One might also point that even within the Jewish community - zionism is not fully accepted - a secular state of Yisroel is not justified in Torah.
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A secular state justified in the Torah? Why would it be? You do know what secular means right?
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One might also point out, of the three "monotheistic (Christianity & Islam's monotheism is debatable)" traditions based on Abraham...it is only Islam that was founded and overly propogated by what would essentially be called a warlord.
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Propagation of a religion via force. The brand of Christianity you see today was a result of the early church's complete and total annihilation of competing sects, such as the Gnostic, the Monophysites et all. After the Council of Nicaea, anyone group that did not adhere to the Nicean Creed was outlawed and dealt with by force. Christianity had its warlord, he was called "The Pope". You did things his way, or no way. Remember a guy called Martin Luther's reaction? Xtianity was spread by force, period. Judaism was not concerned with spreading the faith at all. Judaism belonged to the Jewish people and them alone. You did not convert the defeated, you destroyed them entirely. The Torah is replete with stories of God demanding genocide of entire peoples. No interest whatsoever in converting them. In the early days you did not convert to Judaism, you were born into Judaism. Although they did seem to have an affinity for little virgin girls.
Point being, all monotheism has its roots in force of one kind or another. Hence why I have an intense dislike of it. "mono", one. There can be only one, everyone else must die.
My favorite quote:
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Numbers 31:1-18: "...And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded moses, and they slew all the [adult] males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones...And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses...And Moses was angry with the officers of the host And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Ba'laam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
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Keep the little girls for yourself after you wipe out the entire population. Nice. Elohim is a god of looooove.
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It's their land...but it was someone else's land before that & someone else's before that - ad infinitum. He who has the biggest guns wins...
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I'll go for that I guess, although social darwinism is a tough point to argue. I can use your argument to justify slavery as well. You are walking a slippery slope with social darwinism.
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is it really the land...or more it's better to kills Israeli's/westerners then to kill each other...lock a shia & a sunni in a room for a few days with no westerners & make your bets on who comes out alive.
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I think it is a combination of a whole lot of factors. I think it is largely theological. The Quran makes it quite clear what should happen to those that attack Islam.
Lock some Catholics in a room with a bunch of good ol southern boy evangelical Christians and lets see who comes out alive. I am not even quite sure what the point of your last comparison was.
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I'm no good at piecing qoutes - so bear with me.
Zionism began as movement to afford peoples included, either willingly or unwillingly, within the Jewish community a nation seperate from Europe. Zionism can't argue for a theocratic state for the reason's I mentioned previously. Unfortunately, any country with a majority of the population belonging to one particular faith will be overly concerned with that theology. The present conflict isn't between Jews/Muslims - it's a contrast in world views...wouldn't matter if it was north dakota...Islamic ideals will never mix with western philosophy. To even engage in debate their has to be a common paradigm...The soviets/US hated each other - we never nuked each other because of a common paradigm...self-preservation.
I'm afraid I do know what secular means...unfortunately, any time the word "Jewish" enters into a debate the definitions become rather blurry in order to justify positions...to say one is Jewish is based on canonnical criteria...yet people call themselves Jewish Atheists - it's a contradiction to define one's self by a criteria you dismiss...it gets muddy...
Nicea took the cult of Yoshua to a formalized statement of him as the Mosiach...essentially the beginnings of Pauline Christianity - and presented a codified theological base as the new Israel which excluded the remnants of the mystical/prophetic schools still operating - for obvious reasons. As far as any pope being a warlord...that's debatable on whether it was the religious leaders being puppets of the state or vice versa. BTW - to some extent gnosticism and the other esoteric cults still have remnants (namely coptics).
Qouting the Tanach gets very tricky...there are two points overlooked generally. The Jewish concept of "G-d" is all encompassing - that means the Divine is love/hatred/peace/war/pain/pleasure - there is no other. To say only good things come from above is an absurditity to the observant Jewish mind. This isn't pantheism - it's an absolute monotheism wherein the divine is not bound by one aspect...that would be limiting the concept and necessarily make the divine no longer divine. Jews will say "G-d does what G-d does because that's what G-d does". Also with the Tanach it should be noted the literal relevance of anything aside from the 613 Mitzvo is questionable - Jewish theology is not literal in it's interpretation of anything other than Mitzvo. Midrashim (stories)...even within Torah are considered to be examples of what happens when you do/don't do Mitzvo. No one in their right mind believes the world was created in 7 days...
The sunni shia comment was simply to point out within the Islamic world - the notion of quietly debating differences over a pipe isn't the norm (which isn't limited to Islamic thought - but muslims have a tendancy to hold grudges for a long time - ever called a Kharajijte - best to stay away from whoever called you that & their family for generations). The two main branches of Islam have been killing each other for centuries - obviously it's better to kill someone else...
Moreover - I'm not really arguing a position of darwinism & I'm certainly not taking the position that might = right...more a statement of reality. History has demonstrated the ones with the biggest guns usually win in military conflict. Certainly not taking it to the extreme of only the strong/superior survive.
best of luck -
aeon