for all the affiliates actions now too.... remind me again why it was good to vote for Bush LOL I hat to say I told you so...but

I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!! :salute:

I'm not one to be a big Bush defender but if i'm not mistaken the recent case was for the companies own mailing operations, no?

That's the way I read it too.

Not to mention, based on the paperwork they WEREN'T complying with the CAN SPAM act. That's just asking for trouble.

I only see this as a good thing.

Affiliate programs should be held liable for the actions of their webmaster base.

No more will affiliates be able to spam, scam, cheat and steal from others if programs start being held accountable for their actions.

And the day when the affiliate is a thing of the past draws one giant step closer.

WHAT? Your nuts.

I cannot control what my affiliates do, yet your saying the FTC should shut me down because of a renegade webmaster?

If your thinking gets any more narrow, I might thread your head thru a needle and sew on a button.

Then you shouldnt be running an affiliate program $0.02

I see where you are coming from Lee Noga, but it is an interesting debate with a lot of different issues to look at. Lee is taking a too narrow view but there is some validity to the accountability aspect too. It's not as if you can automatically say "I didn't know about that" and expect to easily have it fly. Also, foreign webmasters sending to US based comapnaies is an interesting topic as well. Lots of issues to look at here.

Well my point was more along the lines of accountability at the affiliate program owners level.

With Lee saying she cant control her affiliates it shows a lack of understanding on her part, of course she can control what her affiliates do, thats why we have T.O.S rules which now, programs will hopefully start to follow.

By policing their affiliates, from where the traffic comes from to how the sites in a program are promoted is going to get rid of those companies who are in this to make a quick buck. It is also going to mean that support reps NEED to have a 'hands on' understanding of what it means to be a 'webmaster' which in turn, is going to mean hat the support their offer their affiliates if going to benefit greatly.

Many programs already police where affiliates send their traffic from, anything that could even be construed as 'illegal' by these programs and the webmasters account gets terminated.. as per the programs T.O.S.

As i said originally, long term, this is going to have a good effect on affiliate programs as those webmasters who are out to cheat, scam and defraud are going to run out of options pretty quickly.

aiding and abetting is a catch all used to cast a wide net. As a lawyer explained it to me, if you are even selling pencils to a criminal organization, they will be looking at you as a cog in a money laundering machine. If they are serious, a lot of affiliates who were pitching anything from casinos to porn should have a good look at their associations.

*yawn*, gimme a break.

This is not even about how I run the affiliate program.

You act like if the words are in the TOS, thats a safeguard that the webmaster 100% will never spam your program.

When Mom and Dad said never to skip school, I did. When the Navy said do not smoke pot, I did...

No webmaster is going to be the perfect angel because we told them they had to be.

Thats my point.

No more, no less.

LeeNoga is using her brain here. Lee, you're not.

Making programs liable for their affiliates actions stops the system dead in its tracks.

No more IPSPs that will cut checks for programs will exist either. The risk of being held liable is too much.

No more programs that have affiliates in the states.

Personally, I'd run naked thru the streets dancing for joy if that day came, but I don't really see it going that route.

That is exactly my point.

It is no longer about just TELLING them to be but actively going above and beyond the current industry 'norm' to seek them out and terminate them from any program that you operate.

The FTC is in essence, telling affiliate programs they now need to police the actions of their affiliate webmasters and THAT, is a good thing no matter how you look at it, isnt it?

That is exactly my point.

It is no longer about just TELLING them to be but actively going above and beyond the current industry 'norm' to seek them out and terminate them from any program that you operate.

The FTC is in essence, telling affiliate programs they now need to police the actions of their affiliate webmasters and THAT, is a good thing no matter how you look at it, isnt it? [/b][/quote]
Lee, we terminate anyone who breaks our TOS. But they have to BREAK them first AND we have to know about it.

So...what happens if DannyWebmaster breaks the rules for a day and he gets found out by the feds before we find out and term him and we're responsible? Like KK said, when that happens, you will see affiliate programs go bye bye.

Kimmy,

IPSPs already police their clients dont they? If anything this is going to make it somewhat easier (long term) for them as they will also now KNOW that an affiliate program who is serious about their business WILL be keeping a watchfull eye on their affiliate base.

Any IPSP im sure would rather work with a handful of programs that are 'tried and trusted' in making sure their affiliates are kept in check than hundreds of them that dont.

Im sure it wont be as cut and dry as that with the FTC and im pretty sure at some point they will use their judgement to make calls to.

At least by being able to show due diligence on a program owners part in order to weed out those cheats it will make it slightly easier for program owners should the FTC come down on them.

Afterall if only 1 out of 100 affiliates are causing an issue.. you know what to do as a program owner.

Also on the subject of program T.O.S. The mainstream world uses T.O.S much more effectively than in adult, for example, the CJ T.O.S is almost 5 or 6 pages long compare that to many of the programs in adult.. 1 page for their T.O.S.

I got my camera ready.... give me a heads up will ya

Hahaha, you live in a dream world Lee. Wake up, especially if you are an affiliate or you have anything to do with affiliates.

If you really in your wildest fantasy think that the owners of Paycom, CCBill, etc would ever consider having criminal indictments from the FTC pressed upon them as part of the normal course of doing business that they don't and can't control, then you must have thought you were getting a wisdom tooth pulled instead of a full frontal lobotomy.

There is risk managment, there is best practices, there is good business sense.

And there's not a single program out there that could by any stretch of the imagination make any of those three options a reason for staying in the affiliate business if something like this is even remotely in the cards.

You don't police affiliates, you hire employees when the consequences are such.

Which is exactly the point i am making, that HAS to change if affiliate programs want to stay in business as they are doing now.

They need to start policing their affiliates instead of hiring new people when the proverbial hits the fan.

Euro Lee.. forget the argument... beat these one liner :pearl: s before going any further ;-)

ROFLMAO... More.. More... More...

Opti,

I dont need to beat them.. im more than capable of putting my views across without the need for insults ;)

WHAT? Your nuts.

I cannot control what my affiliates do, yet your saying the FTC should shut me down because of a renegade webmaster?

If your thinking gets any more narrow, I might thread your head thru a needle and sew on a button. [/b][/quote]
Lee ... this is oprano, you don't have to cover up what you really mean ....

the FTC is taking away your ability to say 'but i didn't know, it was an affiliate' and as a result, you are going to be held responsible for the illegal methods your advertisers use TO MAKE YOU MONEY.

What do you want, profits with no responsibilities? it doesn't work that way ... its called business ... we all knew this was the year of legitimizing the biz - keep up, or .... don't!

When an affiliate starts spamming a program, you should know within hours - a day at the most. if you don't, why are you bothering to spend $250k on a booth? you should be saving that money to put some procedures in place or to build a better stats system or hire more staff to oversee the affiliates activities.

if you check your stats every day, look over every new account or account with a traffic spike, then no affiliates actions should get past you. If you can't handle checking every single affiliate and what they are doing to advertise your product, you shouldn't have so many affiliates. period.

I've run programs with every type of webmaster/traffic/combination you could imagine - i've run small affiliate programs with a few hundred webmasters, and a big affiliate program with 14 000 webmasters. Its never impossible to keep your eye on all of your affiliates, and if someone messes up, it takes 2 minutes in a good stats system to cancel their account and redirect their traffic. Funnily enough, they stop doing bad shit if they aren't going to be paid ... its not rocket science.

yes ... this new rule is going to mean its not worth it for many affiliate programs to stay in business.

WOO HOO!!!!!!
Think of all that traffic with nowhere to be sent?!?!?

:bjump:

I keep making this same point but I'll say it again ... how many business models (apart from MLM) in the real world work with 1000's of resellers? If you want to sell widgets from any company with any credibility, you have to pass a lot of criteria before you are 'accepted' by them.

This biz is going that way ... and thank fuck its happening FINALLY.

:pearl: :pearl:



So how much are all you affiliate programs based in the USA gonna pay me NOT to spam your programs?


;-)))

Ah thats obviously where the issues with my initial post lay..

I assumed everyone replying to this thread was already running a legitamate business.. I guess some of them arent ;)

Sorry it was so spot on I had to :pearl: it again :)

Your pikey logic doesn't have a damn place in this discussion pal, haven't you figured that out yet?

Your pikey logic doesn't have a damn place in this discussion pal, haven't you figured that out yet? [/b][/quote]
Although that being said he does bring up a good point.

Afterall wasnt that one of the underlying reasons behind what happened with Maxcash and the FTC several years ago? Industry cock-fighting?

LOL

LeeNoga, just so you know ... I'm not picking on you - I have more skeletons in my closet than you do I'm sure!!!! LOL

I just hate when people don't take responsibility for their actions ... & I guess having had a couple of really bad years and paying for my mistakes, I'm just sick of hearing how its not possible to come out the other side.

Because it is. And the other side can be brighter ;-)

Just how many times HAS the sky been proclaimed to have fallen in the last 12 months? LOL

As i see it, this is just another reason for the industry to evolve and better itself further, of course, that could just be wishful thinking.

Your pikey logic doesn't have a damn place in this discussion pal, haven't you figured that out yet? [/b][/quote]
LOL , KK

btw saw STG earlier , will prolly call later in the week with him :)

Reminds me of a story...


After golf some business associates and I were sitting with a "normal" guy.
Well after about 2 hours he starts giggling for apparently no reason.

So we ask "whats up"?

He goes your all theiving pikey fucking villains!!

We protest , of course , saying we are legitmate businessmen.

He says "THATS the giveaway , no real businessmen say "legitimate businessmen" nor do they say "this will make bank , and its totally legit" etc etc


;-)))

Although that being said he does bring up a good point.

Afterall wasnt that one of the underlying reasons behind what happened with Maxcash and the FTC several years ago? Industry cock-fighting? [/b][/quote]
Pikey's Law of Excuses.

"The more an excuse is used the less likely it is to be believed"



Thus you have doubled my "I will NOT spam you" fee , because they "he's doing it to cause me damage , we had no idea he was mailing" excuses are pretty used up!!!


;-))

Some good discussion here. I'm sure people can adapt to the new realities and evolve and find other avenues to make up fr lost revenue.

It was probably claimed, disclaimed, reclaimed, and never really put to bed either way in that case. Nor will anyone ever know, since if it did go on, I wouldn't much expect either the FTC or the instigative parties to claim it did.

Here's a little story I do know from firsthand heresay ;)

Back in the day, a man owned an adult video store in Alabama. Seems this man forgot to pay his taxes correctly. Quite a spot he found himself in, it appeared. But an angel of mercy came down and said to him, "hey, pal, order these videos from this company and get them shipped down here to good ole Alabama, and we'll make a deal with you on this other little problem you're having."

Of course with that said, when the Feds actually arrived at the video production house, they had the videos that were considered potentially a very good case for obscenity in Alabama. They had been shipped across state lines as well. So the owner of the production company did some time in jail.

Not for shipping the videos, mind you. That was the least of his worries. It seems the Feds waltzed in the door with indictments for several employees besides the owner, and they also had a seating chart detailing where every one of those employees happened to be sitting when they arrived. They also knew a lot more about the business than just getting those videos shipped would have warranted them to know. The owner made a deal to get the employees out of the loop, his time for their freedom on the surface.

I've heard it said that the average time from the start of an investigation to a RICO conviction is around six years. That was before the start of the internet and all the other fast paced technologies that speed up the very fabric of time.

To true.

Thankfully MC won one in that instance though :)

LOL , KK

btw saw STG earlier , will prolly call later in the week with him :)

Reminds me of a story...


After golf some business associates and I were sitting with a "normal" guy.
Well after about 2 hours he starts giggling for apparently no reason.

So we ask "whats up"?

He goes your all theiving pikey fucking villains!!

We protest , of course , saying we are legitmate businessmen.

He says "THATS the giveaway , no real businessmen say "legitimate businessmen" nor do they say "this will make bank , and its totally legit" etc etc


;-))) [/b][/quote]
hahahaha.. That's too damn funny!! :lol:

WTF do you think I've been doing for the last few months!!!!

;-))))

However I really like this "I will NOT spam you , if you pay me "

There is...blackmail , email , spamming...

How about BAMMING - the art of being paid NOT to spam.

;-)))

Just how many times HAS the sky been proclaimed to have fallen in the last 12 months? LOL

As i see it, this is just another reason for the industry to evolve and better itself further, of course, that could just be wishful thinking. [/b][/quote]
well the sky did fall on me ... as it did fall on many others

we all have our weekness, and the sky has been falling for a couple of years now - not everyone can move smart and fast enough to the out of the way of the falling pieces.

I'm getting very good at working a broom LOL

LMAO @ that story Nick

The General said a similar thing to me once when we were having a conversation about mainstream ... I was about to start working on something and was labelling categories as 'adult' and 'mainstream' and he said 'yeah but in mainstream they don't call it mainstream' LOL

You can always spot a pornographer :rolleyes:

When the sky falls it makes the stars and heavens more reachable :)

The kicker to that story is the "normal" guy was my lawyer ;-)))

(singing)

You say racketerring and I say marketeering
marketeering , racketerring, racketeering , marketeering

Lets open an affiliate programme!!


;-))))

every time this spam argument comes up, i walk down to my mailbox, pull out a bunch of catalogues, flyers and note cards, scratch my head, and throw them in the trash and wonder....if they make the electronic stuff illegal, why dont they start with the postal system... then i remember, oh yeah, its the UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE... they make money off of it.

so the answer is, if the Federal government cannot make money off of it, they want to shut it down until such time that they can figure out a way to charge for it, then they will encourage it.

:)

WTF do you think I've been doing for the last few months!!!!

;-))))

However I really like this "I will NOT spam you , if you pay me "

There is...blackmail , email , spamming...

How about BAMMING - the art of being paid NOT to spam.

;-))) [/b][/quote]
Hahaha... I wouldn't be surprised to see someone try it!!

Ain't that the fucking truth. I can undrstand adult spam.... but mainstream. No fucking different than the boatloads of spam shit I get in my mailbox every day.

except that I've never received anything in my mailbox that says CUM GARGLING FUCK BAG ....

the day you do, your argument has weight :rolleyes:

So you haven't received the postcard I sent you yet , then?


;-))

LMFAO
:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

hey i think i still get klixxx magazine or something

:agrin:

I get your point, im all in favor of banning adult spam, its not offensve, but its overrun my mailboxes. its out of control.

i wouldnt even let my son/daughter have their own mailbox. I would personally filter their mail.

:rolleyes: and stop rolling your eyes at me :rolleyes:

>i wouldnt even let my son/daughter have their own mailbox. I would personally filter their mail.

a-fucking-men!!!!

almost every adult webmaster i know checks their child's inbox before letting them read their email ... and funnily enough, don't have many problems with kids receiving spam mail!