http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041207/D86R3D102.html


SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) - U.S. special forces accused of abusing prisoners in Iraq threatened Defense Intelligence Agency personnel who saw the mistreatment, according to U.S. government memos released Tuesday by the American Civil Liberties Union.

The special forces also monitored e-mails sent by defense personnel and ordered them "not to talk to anyone" in the United States about what they saw, said one memo written by the Defense Intelligence Agency chief, who complained to his Pentagon bosses about the harassment.

In addition, the special forces confiscated photos of a prisoner who had been punched in the face.

Prisoners arriving at a detention center in Baghdad had "burn marks on their backs" as well as bruises and some complained of kidney pain, according to the June 25, 2004 memo.



FBI agents also reported seeing detainees at Abu Ghraib subjected to sleep deprivation, humiliation and forced nudity between October and December 2003 - when the most serious abuses allegedly took place in a scandal that's remains under investigation.

The release of the ACLU documents comes a day after The Associated Press reported that a senior FBI official wrote a letter to the Army's top criminal investigator complaining about "highly aggressive" interrogation techniques at the U.S. prison camp in Guantanamo Bay dating back to 2002 - more than a year before the scandal broke at the Iraqi prison.

The memos reveal behind-the-scenes tensions between the FBI and U.S. military and intelligence task forces running prisoner interrogations at Guantanamo and in Iraq as the Bush administration sought better intelligence to fight terrorists and the deadly Iraq insurgency.

"These documents tell a damning story of sanctioned government abuse - a story that the government has tried to hide and may well come back to haunt our own troops captured in Iraq," said Anthony D. Romero, executive director of the New York-based ACLU.

The documents were released only after a federal court ordered the Pentagon and other government agencies to comply with a year-old request filed under the Freedom of Information Act filed by the ACLU, the Center for Constitutional Rights, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense and Veterans for Peace.




A spokesman for U.S. Central Command in Tampa, Florida, which directs special military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, declined to comment on specific allegations.

"We take all issues of detainee abuse very seriously and where there is the potential that these abuses could have taken place, we investigate them," said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Nick Balice.

Joe Navarro, a retired FBI agent who teaches interrogation techniques to the military and is familiar with interrogations at Guantanamo, said using threats during interrogations only stands to taint information gleaned from the sessions.

"The only thing that torture guarantees is pain," Navarro told AP Tuesday. "It never guarantees the truth."

Many memos refer to Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller, whose mission as head of the Guantanamo prison from October 2002 was to improve the intelligence gleaned from terror suspects. In August 2003, Miller was sent to Iraq to make recommendations on interrogation techniques to get more information out of prisoners. He was posted to Abu Ghraib in March 2004.



One FBI e-mail released by the ACLU said Miller "continued to support interrogation strategies (the FBI) not only advised against, but questioned in terms of effectiveness."

Miller left Iraq on Tuesday for a new assignment in Washington, with responsibility for Army housing and other support operations, and could not be reached for comment.

According to the memo from the Defense Intelligence chief, Vice Admiral Lowell E. Jacoby, a special forces task force in Iraq threatened defense personnel who complained about abuses. Some had their car keys confiscated and were ordered not to leave the base "even to get a haircut."

Balice refused to describe the task force, which could include Army Rangers, Delta Force, Navy SEALs and other Special Forces' soldiers working with CIA operatives.

Another June 25 memo describes how a task force officer punched a prisoner in the face "to the point he needed medical attention," failed to record the medical treatment, and confiscated photos of the injuries. The date of the incident wasn't clear as the memo - like others released by the ACLU - have been heavily redacted to remove dates and names.


An e-mail to Thomas Harrington, an FBI counterterrorism expert who led a team of investigators to Guantanamo, records "somewhat heated" conversations in which Pentagon officials admitted that harsh interrogations did not yield any information not obtained by the FBI.

Another December 2003 e-mail notes the FBI's Military Liaison and Detainee Unit, which "had a longstanding and documented position against use of some of DoDs interrogation practices," requested certain information "be documented to protect the FBI."

In the July 14 letter obtained by the AP, Harrington suggested that the Pentagon didn't act on FBI complaints about four incidents at Guantanamo, including a female interrogator grabbing a detainee's genitals and bending back his thumbs, another where most of a prisoner's head was covered with duct tape and a third where a dog was used to intimidate a detainee who later was thrown into isolation and showed signs of "extreme psychological trauma."

The Harrington letter was addressed to Maj. Gen. Donald J. Ryder, the Army's chief law enforcement officer who's investigating abuses at U.S.-run prisons in Afghanistan, Iraq and at Guantanamo. He said FBI officials complained about the pattern of abusive techniques to top Defense Department attorneys in January 2003, and it appeared that nothing was done.

The U.S. military says prisoners are treated according to the Geneva Conventions, which prohibit violence, torture and humiliating treatment. Still, at least 10 incidents of abuse have been substantiated at Guantanamo, all but one from 2003 or this year.




Many detainees at Guantanamo have been held without charge and without access to attorneys since the camp opened in January 2002. The United States has imprisoned some 550 men accused of links to Afghanistan's ousted Taliban regime or al-Qaida; only four have been charged

Honestly I do not think most Americans care. I know I don't. I think its a non-issue, and for the media to get in a huff over this it just gives the enemy more propaganda.

The stupid arguement that this will lead to worse treatment of prisoners that the Islamacists take is a joke. We already know what they will do.

What is going on is hardly abuse. It is unsavory, but no one is getting their heads cut off. War is a dirty business.

Don't care about them at all.

I favour the SAS method of dealing with them.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sept 30th 1988: 'SAS killed lawfully' - Gibraltar jury
The killing of three unarmed IRA suspects by British soldiers was lawful, a Gibraltar court has found.

The jury took less than seven hours to reach the 9-2 majority verdict on the shootings in March 1988 of Sean Savage, Daniel McCann, and Mairead Farrell.

The elite SAS team shot the suspects because they believed the republican dissidents were about to detonate a remote control bomb in the tiny British territory.

The UK Government has welcomed the verdict.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I don't mind just don't get caught.

How would you know? It is so easy to pass judgement when you live in a gated community.

I have to agree... while I do not like the fact that we are in a stupid war, I do believe that we must fight as dirty as it takes to win.... losing is not an option ( right or wrong in the principle is irrelevent when it is time to put up the dukes, chivalry can be handled after the fight, and remember the one still standing is the one administering the chivalry LOL so that best be you !!)

You just gotta figure out how to stay standing.

Hey, I care about abuse of terrorists!!

















Especially if they're not being abused enough!! :shooter:

Why should we care? It's only the Jews ...

I don't care if they are jewish, catholic, irish, canadian, ukrainian, short, fat, green or blue....

If they are the enemy in a war, we will do not worse then they do to our prisoners.

Jesus H. Christ PD I cannot beleive you had the balls to compare the Holocaust to the mild mistreatment of terrorists.

I don't care if they are jewish, catholic, irish, canadian, ukrainian, short, fat, green or blue....

If they are the enemy in a war, we will do not worse then they do to our prisoners. [/b][/quote]
Ok...

but EXACTLY who are the enemy?

Is it Iraq?
Is it Muslims?
Is it Saudi's?

Frankly I have this awful feeling that sooner or later it will be a interreligious war of (excuse the pun) biblical proportions and all (sorry again)hell will let loose

Ok...

but EXACTLY who are the enemy?

Is it Iraq?
Is it Muslims?
Is it Saudi's?

Frankly I have this awful feeling that sooner or later it will be a interreligious war of (excuse the pun) biblical proportions and all (sorry again)hell will let loose [/b][/quote]
I think you are right.... unfortunatly....

( good thing Canada has us on there team)

Why do you think I´m in porn business - I could do 1 million other things, but I´m here to corrupt the minds of the belivers, so they will be unable to fight...

religion is bad.... mmmkay ;-)))

They cut off peoples heads!
It is about time someone is doing something to bring the rest of the world out of the stone age.
Wait until you see the markets open up once we can control them.

I am not comparing the mild of prisoners to the Holocaust in any way, shape or form.

It's your attitude I'm comparing to that of the good little Germans who stood by and did nothing, Mikey.

There are standards that are supposed to make us different from them. These are prisioners - suspected terrorists, really. Some of them (more so in Iraq than at Gitmo) have been picked up on some pretty flimsy evidence.

We're supposed to be different from Saddam's police, Mikey - not slightly different, but radically different.

You were dropped on your head a number of times as a child, weren't you?

I think you are right.... unfortunatly....

( good thing Canada has us on there team) [/b][/quote]
Canada wouldn't need a team if we were not joined at the hip with the U.S. who puts us at risk.

FREE CANADA!!!

Obviously, the Army was impressed with his performance ... everybody knows what a promotion becoming the barracks officer is. :rolleyes:

So Mike ... if it turns out that Army Special Forces personnel really did threaten other people if they reported alleged abuse, do you think that is appropriate?

I'm kinda in a huff about this, Mike. Maybe it's because I grew up during the Cold War, but I've always been very proud of the differences between us and "them."

Does that make me an enemy, Mike?

I am not comparing the mild of prisoners to the Holocaust in any way, shape or form.

It's your attitude I'm comparing to that of the good little Germans who stood by and did nothing, Mikey.

There are standards that are supposed to make us different from them. These are prisioners - suspected terrorists, really. Some of them (more so in Iraq than at Gitmo) have been picked up on some pretty flimsy evidence.

We're supposed to be different from Saddam's police, Mikey - not slightly different, but radically different. [/b][/quote]


Yeah ok PD, I understand.

hell I want to be a good American, I am doing something, Iam standking up -

I AM CHEERING!!!!!!

So is the majority of this country!

PD don't you see, if we were LIKE THEM, the war would be over. We would eliminate the entire region from the planet. This is what they want to do to us. IF we were like them, we would just cut their heads off and put it on TV. We have enough in Guantanmo to make a Reality TV show out of it!!

We are different from them. We fight by rules that we choose to place on ourselves which are stricter then anything they afford our soldiers and civlians.

If you cannot see the difference between THEM and US, maybe its because you looking from the THEM side a little to much.

Yeah ok PD, I understand.

hell I want to be a good American, I am doing something, Iam standking up -

I AM CHEERING!!!!!!

So is the majority of this country! [/b][/quote]
You would've made a hell of a German, Mikey.

Ok...

but EXACTLY who are the enemy?

Is it Iraq?
Is it Muslims?
Is it Saudi's?

Frankly I have this awful feeling that sooner or later it will be a interreligious war of (excuse the pun) biblical proportions and all (sorry again)hell will let loose [/b][/quote]
brown people

Yeah ok PD, I understand.

hell I want to be a good American, I am doing something, Iam standking up -

I AM CHEERING!!!!!!

So is the majority of this country! [/b][/quote]
and doing nothing......

Mike ... if American troops catch someone beside a road placing an IED, I hope (and suspect) they are not bothering to take prisoners.

If American intelligence assets discover a center for the manufacture of car bombs, I hope (and suspect) that the end result is an inventory of body parts, not prisoners.

I don't like the idea of abusing the prisoners. I do believe in American values - and that includes innocence until proven guilty by somebody other than the folks that apprehended them.

But far more chilling to me than the arbitrary arguements about what constitutes abuse, and what is appropriate under what treaty, is the allegation that the Special Forces are threatening people who have witnessed alleged incidents of abuse. Maybe that's okay with you, but it sure as hell isn't with me.

And ... I realize that you are one of the narrow minded bigots that cannot possible understand that someone who disagrees with you can be as concerned about this country as you are - so the allegation that I am looking at it from "their" side is no suprise at all.

But tell me something, Mikey ... what do you think Ahab Ahab (picked up during a sweep while taking out the trash two blocks after an IED goes off two blocks away) is going to do when he is released from a prison 6 months from now, after enduring (or witnessing) that kinda treatment?

Can your closed mind wrap itself around the possibility that this shit could backfire on us?

Mike ... if American troops catch someone beside a road placing an IED, I hope (and suspect) they are not bothering to take prisoners.

If American intelligence assets discover a center for the manufacture of car bombs, I hope (and suspect) that the end result is an inventory of body parts, not prisoners.

I don't like the idea of abusing the prisoners. I do believe in American values - and that includes innocence until proven guilty by somebody other than the folks that apprehended them.

But far more chilling to me than the arbitrary arguements about what constitutes abuse, and what is appropriate under what treaty, is the allegation that the Special Forces are threatening people who have witnessed alleged incidents of abuse. Maybe that's okay with you, but it sure as hell isn't with me.

And ... I realize that you are one of the narrow minded bigots that cannot possible understand that someone who disagrees with you can be as concerned about this country as you are - so the allegation that I am looking at it from "their" side is no suprise at all.

But tell me something, Mikey ... what do you think Ahab Ahab (picked up during a sweep while taking out the trash two blocks after an IED goes off two blocks away) is going to do when he is released from a prison 6 months from now, after enduring (or witnessing) that kinda treatment?

Can your closed mind wrap itself around the possibility that this shit could backfire on us? [/b][/quote]


Innocent until proven guilty??? COME ON!!! next you will want by a jury of their peers!!

Are you French??

To extend Civil Rights extended by the US Constitution to terrorists is exactly what the left is trying to get accomplished. This type of stupid idea only leads people to think the left is trying to do anything to undermine this war, President and Country.

These people are not even POWs, they are terrorists.

PD, maybe you want to cuddle some guys at Guantanamo as you explain the US Consitution to them.

"These people are not even POWs, they are terrorists."

Who said that Mikey? Hook, line, and sinker. You watch way too much FoxNews. Nothing more dangerous than an uniformed Florida voter.

PD you're a fucking lunatic and if you were standing in front of me I'd bitch slap you for making the comparison to nazi Germany!

I repeat again - I am not comparing the prison abuse scandal to Nazi atrocities. Perhaps that may be too subtle for some to understand.

As far being a lunatic - fuck, why not? If I am unpatriotic because I don't think like Mike, I can be a lunatic because I don't think like you.

And for the record, I have been slapped by bitches before ...

No, you were comparing Al-Zarqawi's militants in US Custody to Jews, Abu Graib to Auschwitz, and Mike to a Nazi German.

How the fuck is that subtle?

No, you were comparing Al-Zarqawi's militants to Jews and you were comparing Mike to a Nazi German.

How the fuck is that subtle? [/b][/quote]
I don't quite see how you draw that conclusions LOL

I don't quite see how you see anything.

No, you were comparing Al-Zarqawi's militants in US Custody to Jews, Abu Graib to Auschwitz, and Mike to a Nazi German.

How the fuck is that subtle? [/b][/quote]
You have it all wrong. I was NOT Ccomparing Al-Zarqawi's militants in US Custody to Jews, NOT comparing Abu Graib to Auschwitz, and NOT comparing Mike to a Nazi German.

A good little German who accepts what authority tells him, maybe - but not a Nazi.

I am not saying that all of the detainees should be taken to the Motel 6 and fed happy meals while watching cable televison.

I am saying that the normal American standards for detention of prisioners (military or civilian) should apply to detainees at Gitmo or in Afghanistan or in Iraq.

I am most certainly saying that they should throw the book at any Special Forces member who is found guilty of attempting to intimidate witnesses to violations of U.S. law.

Please note that I said "who is found guilty." Those are some pretty heavy allegations. I think that you'd have to be a moron to assume the charges are correct - but I think you've got to be equally moronic to dismiss them out of hand or to justify them before investigation.

<!--QuoteBegin-Lunatic@Dec 7 2004, 08:55 PM
You would've made a hell of a German, Mikey.[/quote]

Either my browser is acting wierd, the board is acting wierd, or I'm being haunted by a j'ghost ...

Actually, it's you who's acting weird ;-))

Actually, it's you who's acting weird ;-)) [/b][/quote]
My girlfriend gets suspicious, my dog gets nervous, and my children wonder if I am ill when I start acting too normal ...

PD can't be French. He takes showers.

I don't know that personally, but I hear his girlfriend and his dog make him do this.

:P

I don't recall anyone saying anything about "constitutional rights" for prisoners. It is just another misrepresentation made by ignorant right wingers convinced that anyone who doesn't agree with them can't possibly care about the country. Some morons are going to think those that oppose them are "trying to do anything to undermine this war, President and Country" simply because they either lack the intellectual capabilities to understand a difference of opinion, or are too fucking intellectually lazy to bother with genuine thought.

For the record, I don't think you are lacking in intellectual capabilities.

There have been American standards for the treatment of military prisoners since at least the Civil War. There is no reason to abandon them now. Acting even remotely like Saddam will do us far more damage in the very real war on terror than any possible gain we can garner from it. You cannot possibly terrorize terrorists out of being terrorists. The only thing this kind of treatment will accomplish is to serve as recruiting poster children for the terrorists.

Put me in charge of Gitmo tomorrow, and the place will be empty by Christmas. People with no intelligence value who do not represent an ongoing threat will be sent home. The rest will not be a problem for anyone ever again.

As far as being French ... while I still believe you would have made a more than adequate "good little German", you'd have made an even better right-wing Frenchman under the Third Republic. Those are the people who were far more worried about leftists than they were about what was going on to their east.

Come to think of it, you'd have functioned just as well as a right-winger under the 4th Republic. You could have been embittered by the unwillingness fight on someplace in the East, and ...

Oh, wait. The French 4th Republic fell after/because of another war. Who were they fighting then?

I am going to print some of these PD posts and when I can't sleep at night I'll read some of them :zzz:

What makes us different is that our courts ordered the Pentagon to release the papers mentioned in the article. What makes us different is that we have groups like the ACLU which fight for those papers. What makes us different is that we are reading an article on the abuse written by a US reporter.

Now, I think we should comply with the Geneva Conventions.

Something interesting. One of the Abu Ghraib prison detainees who claims to have been beaten, stripped naked, , forced to pile on top of other prisoners, forced to straddle each other detainees backs naked and to simulate oral sex said he "would not refuse an offer to move to America."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...MNGUL6FVGK1.DTL

I keep telling people. What those iraqis were put through in the prison, people in the US pay up to $500 an hour to be treated like that!!

LOL :yowsa:

terrorists should be treated different than any other criminal... since there is no other criminal like a terrorist.

First you gotta prove they are terrorists. I would say that is the whole point. Did I miss something here? What happened to the concept of innocent until proven guilty? Or does this not apply to America? You borrowed a perfectly functional legal system, why fuck with it?
This shit is just asking for trouble. And you wonder why the world dislikes Americans at the moment. If you want to be more secure, then start bacting more civilised and mature as a country. Otherwise....well we don't even want to go there, do we.

This is some funny shit

TERRORIST TEST

QUESTION 1: What is your name?

Non-terrorists have names like Larry, John, or SpongeBob. If the person answers with "Mohammed" or the nickname "The Engineer," he's probably a terrorist.


QUESTION 2: Fill in the blank: I want to ____ Americans.

Terrorists will not be able to help themselves from completing the sentence with the word "kill". Non-terrorist foreigners will fill the blank in with "thank", "hug", or "kneel down before".


QUESTION 3: Fill in the blank: The ones to blame are the ____.

Non-terrorists will probably become confused by this question and leave it blank since they would need to know more information about the problem before being able to assign blame. Terrorists will instinctively fill in the blank with "JEWS!!!" or "jooooos!".


QUESTION 4: What is your opinion about the Crusades?

Most non-terrorist Americans’ knowledge about the Crusades will come exclusively from the beginning of the movie Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (or Robin Hood: Men in Tights), so one should be wary of any answer that doesn't mention Kevin Costner. Even if the person does know something about the Crusades, he or she will probably not have much of an opinion about it as it seems as relevant to modern life as the battle between Thag and Zork in 30,000 B.C. over who got to next paint a buffalo on the cave wall. Only dirty terrorists care about the Crusades.


MULTIPLE CHOICE SECTION

The terrorist answer to all of these is D.

QUESTION 5:
Islam means ____.
A. peace.
B. submission.
C. That you are a "lam."
D. kill the Jews!!!

QUESTION 6:
Children should be
A. seen and not heard
B. cherished
C. given Ritalin
D. blown up

QUESTION 7:
If you got a new puppy, what would you name him?
A. Rover
B. Fluffy
C. GK Chesterton
D. Infidel... and then hang him

QUESTION 8:
The sun sets every night because of
A. the earth rotating
B. the earth revolving around the sun
C. the sun revolving around the earth
D. a Zionist conspiracy

QUESTION 9:
My parents want me
A. to be happy
B. to make something of myself
C. to get a job
D. to blow myself up in a crowded area

QUESTION 10:
At the end of the Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, I immediately thought
A. "What a great movie!"
B. "It could have been more faithful to the book."
C. "I need to pee."
D. "Kill the Jews!"

Asking for what trouble? Are you going to start telling us about all the terrible terrorist attacks in the US since 9/11? How the worst is yet to come... even though it's quite clear that terrorism is losing everywhere on the planet? How terrorism have never been more alive than now in spite of the obvious fact that terrorist groups are under immeasurable pressure today compared to 10 years ago? Did you just join the "I Hate The USA Cult Of The RawAlex"?

I have spent most of the last 10 years out of the country. I know why the rest of the world doesn't like the US better than most Europeans AND Americans. I have seen more countries and more of the world in the last 5 years than you will see in your entire pathetic life.

Why do you think anyone cares if you visit the US or not? Who are you? The ambassador of Sweden? The President of the EU? You are just one more google quoting shit talker on a message board that does not matter to anyone, anywhere on the planet... welcome to the club.

colin that was some funny shit : )

jr, carefull bro, I think there's laws against mentally abusing the mentally challenged

: ))