No silly of course it is not written by me! this pearl of wisdom is credited to giorgioX and he used it to own 12clicks.. but it makes for good reading for any republicans in the house, or any intellectuals that would like to try their hand at disecting it.

enjoy.....

1) You forget we invaded Iraq. They didn't invade us. No terrorist based in Iraq was ever involved with any terrorist actions against the U.S. prior to the invasion.
2) Iraqis are being killed at a rate of 10 times faster than U.S. troops. The U.S. is a Christian army occupying an Islamic land. What do you expect them to do? Not fight? It's their country.
3) We never even declared war on Iraq. The War Powers act only authorizes a President 90 days without additional approval. We have been in country for 12 months.
4) The U.S. does not have a realistic and viable exit strategy. There will now be civil war in Iraq regardless of when we withdraw.
5) We made promises to the Iraq people that haven't been fulfilled.
6) The U.S. tortures Iraqi prisoners. What makes us any better than those crazy towelheads?
7) We have spent $150 billion so far. That equals the tax cuts the Bush Administration.
8) We assume those lunatics think like us. The Arabs are wackos. Why should we assume they will play along?
9) We support Israel which denies the fundamental and universal right of national self-determination. How un-American. Those Arab wackos don't see the difference between Israel and the U.S.
10) The Bush administration and those neo-conservative groups that put him into power are working to undermine the Constitution by saying they are defending it. Prayer and religion are much more important than free choice or free speech? I think not. What is patriotic about the Patriot Act?

A vote for Bush is a vote for a future of religious dictatorship of the Evangelical Right. Bush actually prays at night for guidance from God! God didn't save the 30 million Chinese during the Cultural Revolution, God didn't save the 20 million Cossacks killed during the Harvest of Sorrows, God didn't protect the 1.8 million Armenians massacred by Turks, God didn't shelter his chosen 6 million, the Jews.

I have been a dues paying member of the Rebulican Party since I was 18. Why were/are the intellectuals of the Repulican Party against the invasion and occupation of Iraq? William F. Buckley, Pat Buchannon, John McCain, and Bush's own father!

Why can't Bush admit he made a mistake? He tried at last month's news conference. He said that mistakes had been made. During the follow-up question, Bush was asked what those mistakes were. He couldn't list a single one. We have a buffoon as our leader and we will pay the price.

Real Republicans believe in the founding principles of limited government and trust in the individual citizen to make the right decision. The Constitution is much more important than the Bible.

joesHO1, for once, we agree! That was a great post

1) You forget we invaded Iraq. They didn't invade us.

Every war is started by someone. This one was started by the US. Who forgot?

2) Iraqis are being killed at a rate of 10 times faster than U.S. troops.

Right, we're winning

3) We never even declared war on Iraq. The War Powers act only authorizes a President 90 days without additional approval. We have been in country for 12 months.

Further continuation of the power struggle between Congress and the President. Congress has means at its disposal to up the ante if it so wishes.

4) There will now be civil war in Iraq regardless of when we withdraw.

Completely conjectural. Who wrote that? Nostradamus? What makes this "smart"?

5) We made promises to the Iraq people that haven't been fulfilled.

Yet?

6) The U.S. tortures Iraqi prisoners. What makes us any better than those crazy towelheads?

We're not.

7) We have spent $150 billion so far.

Is that unreasonable? How much does an a-bomb cost? We could have saved a lot of money.

8) We assume those lunatics think like us. The Arabs are wackos.

True

9) Those Arab wackos don't see the difference between Israel and the U.S.

Uhhhh, duh. Millions of them believe that the US and Israel worked together to destroy the WTC and blame it on "the muslims". The US is not in control of the Muslim view of all outsiders as belonging to Dar al-harb.



10) The Bush administration and those neo-conservative groups that put him into power are working to undermine the Constitution by saying they are defending it. Prayer and religion are much more important than free choice or free speech? I think not. What is patriotic about the Patriot Act?

Many of the same people that believe that don't think of themselves as "undermining the Constitution" when they wish to ban the "right to bear arms". In fact, there's a strong overlap. Every American has a different view of the way the world should be and some of this conflicts with the US constitution. I respect the views of those who believe "we" shouldn't have the right to bear arms and I respect the views of those who believe that "religion is more important than free choice" though I believe both contradict the intent of the constitution and agree with neither.




Last edited by Colin at May 4 2004, 09:29 AM

my cute and paste luke style ; )


This is a letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army
National Guard, serving in Iraq:

As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in
Iraq, I wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the
media. They have done a very poor job of covering everything that
has happened. I am sorry that I have not been able to visit all
of you during my two week leave back home. And just so you can
rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is
noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the
list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share
it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper
is producing.)

* Over 400,000 kids ha! ve up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels/* before the war*/.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons
stored there so education can occur.
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded
from ships faster.
* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water/* for the
first time ever*/ in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did/*
before the war*/.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to
35%/* before the war*/.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city
councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patro! lling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by
side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones/* for the first time ever*/.
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques
to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the
first time in 30 years.

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want
us there. I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us
there, and in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms
we talk about but they hope their children will. We are doing a
good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to dispute me on
these facts. So If you happen to run into! John Kerry, be sure to
give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This
soldier will set him straight. If you are like me and very
disgusted with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed,
email this to a friend and let them know there are good things
happening.

Ray Reynolds, SFC
Iowa Army National Guard
234th Signal Battalion

owning GFYer is easy,
OpraNO IS another story
;)))

good job colin, dan!

Serge

:okthumb: Colin & Dan

JoesHO1 - you will let us know when you're going to make the "smart" post won't you :yowsa:

If it's not obvious the owned concept really doesn't work here well, in fact I feel queasy just using that word in a post

Dan, considering that the US military was caught "creating" letters home for many of the soldiers to help "spread the good word", I take that letter as nothing more than total 100% political horseshit. While many of the "facts" may be correct, they do not clearly show the causes of these situations...

Some of those are things that are not easily verified, and the numbers are "golly-fied" to make it sound good. 60,000 police SOUNDS like a good number, until you realize that there are also almost 200,000 combined troops in the country, and they still are not able to maintain order, as an example.

Don't be a victim of propaganda, no matter how nice of a suger coat they put on it.

Alex

Alex,

I've always wondered. Are you really so self-righteous that you believe you form your opinions of the world based upon knowledge, wisdom, intellect, and keen insights while those who disagree with you are victims of propaganda or do you just come across that way?

Alex,

I've always wondered. Are you really so self-righteous that you believe you form your opinions of the world based upon knowledge, wisdom, intellect, and keen insights while those who disagree with you are victims of propaganda or do you just come across that way?[/b][/quote]
fair question.

but then, where did the medic get his numbers/stats from?

Colin, I tend to find that anyone who appears to 100% believe everything they are told, and repeats it for others is likely a victim of propaganda or spin. I find myself more often to be in the middle on many issues, seeing a little more of both sides and not absentmindly accepting whatever pap is handed out by the side I feel the most sympathy / support for.

It is VERY VERY VERY unlikely that any "medic" would have such exact figures. I remember this particular letter because it was reported in a number of news organizations that many tropps sent home the EXACT same letter at the same time. Those troops had the letter written for them, and all they had to do was sign it and it got mailed. Copies of the letters were sent to parent, schools, and other groups as part of a campaign to change the public's opinion of the (it's not a) war in Iraq.

Examples such as this:

http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20031...ge/121390.shtml

it's disgusting... and it's sad that the military (and commander in chief) would even think Americans stupid enough to buy into it.

Alex

Edit: Want more on this BS letter? Check out these Google links:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...+the+streets%22

The only ones suggesting it is honest are conservative mouth pieces like insight.



Last edited by RawAlex at May 4 2004, 11:33 AM

alex, your post was HORSEHIT!
I'm prolly the one of the most informed person on what is going on in country, I follow it, I live it, and I support it. Why, cause I have brothers in harmsway and I know "pretty" well what their going though.


here's anotherone for you on what REALLY is going on over there,
http://mattchis.bravejournal.com/ Please read the 2nd entry. oh, and I've talked to matt via email, he's there FIGHTING(unlike some) not in some office somewhere makeing horseshit up!

I dont look at this war in dem/repub way, I look at though a soldiers eye, right or wrong. They ARE busting thier ass to try to make this work, and everyday some assclowns(not even the enemy) makes it harder and harder for them to do this JOB.

Dan, i don't doubt your sincerity or personal involvement in the issue. I have read about your past, and I know your involvement in these issues in the past.

HOWEVER, you have been snookered. Ray Reynolds probably doesn't exist, and if he did, he wouldn't have access to this type of information as a medic (think about the basic military rule, don't tell the grunts anything they don't need to know). The letter is almost a chain letter, fercrissake!

the other link I posted showed letter written by the military and sent to news organization under the names of soldiers in an attempt to curry good press. They got caught, they sort of admitted it, and it blew over.

I don't doubt the heart and good intentions of the soliders in the field. I don't doubt your heart or your good intentions. But come on, admit when you get fooled and move on... it happens to all of us sometimes. :-)

Alex

I have no knowledge on the medic, I agree there, BUT I feel like the intent on that letter is true. either way, I feel like we(everyone not there) isnt getting the REAL deal. I know things could/should have been done different in lots of ways in this mess, but we only get what some editer/producer/writer wants us to get, THERE's so much more to the story and it needs to be out there, I just try to do my part on that.

Cheers
:stout:

Incorrect. In fact, even this site, which is very liberal, in checking things out found out he not only exists, but he wrote the letter.

Yes, they dispute some of the things he says, but to discount the letter w/o doing a simple Google search is silly. :awinky:

Peaches, from that exact website:

Basically, the signature as provided on the letter is BS. Everything else after that is pretty darn suspect, if you ask me.

Dan: Posting something like you did isn't going to help the situation at all. You know in your heart of hearts that the information in that letter is probably not the soldier's own words, and contains many bits of information taken out of context or without proper comparision. It's level of distribution (the bubba to bubba email network, I guess!) indicates to me a plan (by someone) to use it's content as promotional propaganda.

The Iraq (it's not a) war started with controlled, captive "embedded" journalists, and has moved along with most of the information coming from the military only. However, nothing they say can cover up the deaths of hundreds of soldiers in Iraq, even after the fighting is over.

It's a sad situation all around. I feel sorry for the troops put in harms way well beyond what anyone expected to see.

Alex

Where in the letter did the guy say he was a medic? Whomever was sending out the email said it, so why should the mindset of the actual writer be suspect? :unsure:

In addition

And that's from someone who obviously spent a lot of time trying to disprove the letter was written by an actual soldier. :awinky:

Alex - what the fuck is the "bubba to bubba" email network, you sanctimonious twerp? Posting something like you did isn't going to help the situation at all. The arrogance you display in proclaiming the superiority of your views over those of people who aren't sophisticated enough to think like you do is positively breathtaking.

All that's missing from your post is a proclamation that people who don't think like you do don't understand the real politik of the situation.

Colin ... what are we winning?

PD, we are all entitled to an opinion. Don't like mine? GFY, plain and simple. No arrogance. No superiority. I feel very inferior in many ways. But I am not going to just parrot the information tossed at them. Chain letters ("Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing") in any form suck. This letter is a clear attempt to put forth a "liberal media sucks" message, which plays best to the people who most support the war.

The letter worked, search google and you will find hundreds of links to it... probably 90% of them call BS, same as I did.

Peaches, I did a Google search before calling BS. I looked at about 10 different websites for an opinion. I have seen and read this letter in the past. The information on it comes mostly from US military news briefing documents and USA-AID (I think that is the name) information packages. There is no real way to verify the information. Someone who is a medic or a communications guy is very unlikely to have all this info in his hands while in theater in Iraq.

Unless of course the 234th's job includes distributing information to the public of Iraq. Then he would certainly have all the information the military wants to have put out there.

How much of it is really true? Your linked site (orwelliantimes) says:

I call BS exactly for the same reasons others have called BS. The content is full of misinformation and lies, the information on the person who wrote it is not correct (he is a medic, he is in communications, he is a cop, he is a firefighter, he is a civilian now, he is in kuwait now)... too much double talk tells me there is enough BS is here to write it all off. Just like a court of law, if a witness is caught lying, it is unlikely that anything else they say will be taken as fact.

Alex

Colin es en Fuego!!

:redance:

The whole thing about prisoner abuse is kind of disturbing, only that it is giving our enemies both foreign and native ammunition.

From what I have read, most of the "abuse" deals with hummiliation, and some mild physcological mindfucking. We have all seen the images.

However, to compare THEIR treatment of prisoners ( dragging bodies through the streets, etc...) to what has been done by a few morons is a joke.

Another key difference is the US is investigating, and people will be held responsible and will be punished.

Really? Your views seem completely and utterly one-sided to me whereas I feel like I am in the middle on most issues. Maybe you are in the middle for Canada and I am in the middle for the US.

Colin, your opinion, and your welcome to it. :-) I think you are correct that middle US is different from middle Canada.

I think anyone not sitting right on the edge at the end thinks themselves in the middle.

Alex

Well, you are in the middle compared to whom? Canadians, Chinese, Americans, Iraqis, Japanese, Turks?

Really? Your views seem completely and utterly one-sided to me whereas I feel like I am in the middle on most issues. Maybe you are in the middle for Canada and I am in the middle for the US.[/b][/quote]
Colin, I wouldn't consider you to be in the middle ...

From your posts I'd say you are a fan of war, that's not *middle*.

You are also equally as dismissive of other people's opinions as alex ...

Its impossible to have a fair discussion about war with an american.

I like to call it "dark humor". ;-)

I'm lost. What do you mean? The French, Italians, Columbians, Saudis, and Chinese have views on war that are more "fair" than Americans? What makes a discussion "fair"? Which Americans? The tens of millions who agree with the war or the tens of millions who disagree with it? Does PD have fair discussions regarding war? (PD is someone I would say has "fair" discussions). Can someone be in favor of war as a political solution and still have a "fair discussion" on the matter?



Last edited by Colin at May 5 2004, 03:47 AM

I said "most issues" and pointed out the relativity. I'm not "middle of the road" in Canada. I know. If you want to frame me based on one issue, go ahead. I'm pro-choice, pro-porn, anti-death penalty, anti-religion, in favor of moderate social assistance programs, pro-business, anti-greenpeace, anti-PETA and am split on the issue of the right to bear arms with a slight leaning in favor but understand the opposite view. I would have voted Bush last election and Kerry in the next one. Some people on boards have called me liberal and others conservative. Fought with both on the labels. They are both dirty labels to me. But let's not discuss me. That's so boring.

I said "most issues" and pointed out the relativity. I'm not "middle of the road" in Canada. I know. If you want to frame me based on one issue, go ahead. I'm pro-choice, pro-porn, anti-death penalty, anti-religion, in favor of moderate social assistance programs, pro-business, anti-greenpeace, anti-PETA and am split on the issue of the right to bear arms with a slight leaning in favor but understand the opposite view. I would have voted Bush last election and Kerry in the next one. Some people on boards have called me liberal and others conservative. Fought with both on the labels. They are both dirty labels to me. But let's not discuss me. That's so boring.[/b][/quote]
An honest answer. OMG!

How dare you be in the margin?! Take a side dammit! :D

I grew up republican, and still to this day have some very republican values, in the purest sense of the term - not the religious right terms - but I can't vote republican for the presidency this time around. Bush and most of his cabinet choices fucked up big time. Is Bush himself at fault? No. But I can't allow minions like Ashcroft and other dillweeds to continue fucking up the constitution and attempting to take our rights away.

I may suck at dancing, but I'll be damned if some homophobic, clueless moron, who "says" he only fucks for procreation is going to be my Atty Gen. He lost an election to a dead man, and we trust him??? Janet Reno was kinda scary to look at but at least she realized what was important.

I said "most issues" and pointed out the relativity. I'm not "middle of the road" in Canada. I know. If you want to frame me based on one issue, go ahead. I'm pro-choice, pro-porn, anti-death penalty, anti-religion, in favor of moderate social assistance programs, pro-business, anti-greenpeace, anti-PETA and am split on the issue of the right to bear arms with a slight leaning in favor but understand the opposite view. I would have voted Bush last election and Kerry in the next one. Some people on boards have called me liberal and others conservative. Fought with both on the labels. They are both dirty labels to me. But let's not discuss me. That's so boring.[/b][/quote]
Colin what you are is an Americanist, pure and simple. Someone who believes passionately in all things American with the fervor of a holy-rolling, fundamentalist, fire and brimstone, Bible slamming Christian preacher.

Or at least that's how I see you.

Strangely, you're also one of the few around here I'd like to have a beer and a chat with.

"In the margin". I like that. I hope no one reads between the lines.

We'd have a great time. I'm sure.

That is a seriously sanctimonious assinine statement. :moon:

It is really pissing me off that "people of the world" get thier panties in a knot when Americans use stereotypes to describe people of other countries. Yet they are very comfortable using American Stereotypes.

Not all Americans are pro war, not by a long shot.

Joe,

I'm just anti-anti-American ;-)

They're idiots just like us but .. shhh. :salute:

I said "most issues" and pointed out the relativity. I'm not "middle of the road" in Canada. I know. If you want to frame me based on one issue, go ahead. I'm pro-choice, pro-porn, anti-death penalty, anti-religion, in favor of moderate social assistance programs, pro-business, anti-greenpeace, anti-PETA and am split on the issue of the right to bear arms with a slight leaning in favor but understand the opposite view. I would have voted Bush last election and Kerry in the next one. Some people on boards have called me liberal and others conservative. Fought with both on the labels. They are both dirty labels to me. But let's not discuss me. That's so boring.[/b][/quote]
I thought we were discussing the war in iraq ... I didn't mention anything about where I see your position on abortion, religion or saving the animals.

I do not consider you to be in the middle on this subject ... better?! :rolleyes:

Much!

That is a seriously sanctimonious assinine statement. :moon:

It is really pissing me off that "people of the world" get thier panties in a knot when Americans use stereotypes to describe people of other countries. Yet they are very comfortable using American Stereotypes.

Not all Americans are pro war, not by a long shot.[/b][/quote]
I have long ago given up getting my panties in a knot over american's stereotyping me and my fellow 'foreigners' ... you are the masters of it and nobody else should try.

And yet ... look at your panties getting all knotted there over 1 sentence!

like I said Jeff, its not possible to have a fair discussion about war with an american ... I say so sanctimoniously - I would be ASININE if I tried.

Jeff is the master of using stereotypes? I need to go read some old posts.

Jeff is the master of using stereotypes? I need to go read some old posts.[/b][/quote]
oh puhlease Colin :rolleyes:

i guess copying the whole sentence wouldn't have been as controversial huh?

:wnw:

notice the non americans always end up leaving these threads either frustrated or resigned to the fact that its not worth discussing? would that be because non americans are always wrong, or because its difficult to discuss this subject with americans?

i long ago hit the 'not worth discussing' point. its impossible to find a middle when the balance of webmasters is a single nationality - on ANY issue that can be influenced by social conditioning.

i'm conditioned my way ... you are conditioned yours ...

enjoy your debate!

You're doing a GREAT JOB! :-P

why are the rabble of this business so infatuated with the word "owned" yet have no understanding of what it means?

Ron,
is that REALLY you?

what took you so long??????

yeap, it's 12 Clicks all right,
Standard Internet IP

12 clicks like my ass... I catch him staring at it a lot.. :)