Hi all,

One of the biggest issues currently in our industry is chargebacks, & the fact that we are often pushed past the 1% threshold by 'friendly fraud' customers. Friendly fraud accounts for around 80% of all chargebacks, and until now there have been very few successful products recognised by banks available to prove that a surfer has joined your site & accessed it.

There are currently rumours circulating through the banks that visa will go to .75% in the coming months. We can cross our fingers that this won't happen, but its inevitable that we MUST make major changes in the way we sign members up to our sites.

For the last 6 months, I have watched the pennywize crew who have been testing internal methods to reduce chargebacks with some clients who had high chargeback related problems with their own mechant processing, and have noticed amazing results in a ) the number of people who even ask for a chargeback and b ) the number of chargebacks that are successful.

There's also the additional problem of affiliate fraud and not knowing which affiliate is creating the most chargeback problems. This system allows you to monitor exactly which affiliates are causing you trouble.

This service is now available to the webmaster community to beta test, & I think you will be impressed by the simplicity of this product. Client Confirm offers you the following features:

Significantly reduce chargebacks
Reduce the incident of 'friendly fraud' by customers
Reduce or isolate fraud from your affiliates
Better qualify your members
Allow you to accept foreign signups with confidence
Give you much more proof when fighting a dispute

This is how it works:

* The surfer visits your website, and signs up as normal - nothing to interfere with your join conversions

* Before the 'member' is allowed into the members area, they must 'confirm' their transaction using phone technology (1800 number for usa, mexico & canada, SMS for the rest of the world)

* A unique number is sent to the SMS customer which then must be entered into the site - or for usa customers the 1800 number gives a unique number plus requires a voice recording stating their name and age

This program is brought to you by the makers of Pennywize, and is written based on extensive experience with high volume transactions. It only takes 5 minutes to sign up and 15 to setup - so take a look and see how this can help your chargeback problem!

CJ, is this similar to what Steve uses for verification for his Cash Mountain joins ?

Yeah I got that today. A couple of problems...you have to use messaging on a cell phone in europe and not everyone has cellphones and older customers can't text message because they don't know how. I am also not quite sure what happens if they fuck up on their response. Do you have to manually refund? Don't think this is quite there yet.

I like the idea, and glad people are working on solutions.

However it may be too much work for the average surfer with his dick in his hand.

I would like to see conversions before and after this solution was used.

Damn I can't believe it Mikee. We actually agree.

Sausage, yes it is similar - this is the much improved commercial version with the bells and whistles attached ;-)

jsdude, toll free numbers for EU are on their way

Mike, over 90% have no problem confirming. It doesnt affect conversions because the user has already signed up and had their cc approved etc.

As for the average surfer with his dick in his hand, he's also the average guy who's gonna dispute the charge when his wife finds the bill :okthumb: you should see what happens to average surfer with his dick in his hand when we threaten to play the voice recording for his wife!!!! :biglaugh: (we don't actually do that, but he implication is enough) ;-)

I agree with this. After all 900 billing never took off and I think the main reason was that extra step.

Diana, can you shrink your avatar a little. It is causing the pages to shift.

thanks

I tried the system with some of my SE traffic and it converted much better than average without the scrub and their own merchant account, but had about 60-70% confirm ... which is probably not too bad considering.

If they can do upwards of an 80-90% confirm rate, then hats off to em! It would definitely be the way to go, and you would probably get more sales as a result.

It is a step in the right direction. I am sure it would be a great solution for those who have a problem with chargebacks. Fortunately we are way under the 1%.


CJ - I think you should dedicate part of your radio show to this!

I agree with this. After all 900 billing never took off and I think the main reason was that extra step.[/b][/quote]
the difference being that if a surfer couldn't be bothered doing the 900 setup you never get a signup ...

this process happens AFTER the signup has already been approved

as soon as Steve is ready for official launch I will get him to come on as a sponsor to answer q's etc

he doesn't know this yet though ;-))))

the difference being that if a surfer couldn't be bothered doing the 900 setup you never get a signup ...

this process happens AFTER the signup has already been approved[/b][/quote]
so what if it fails and his transaction has already been approved? What is the next step?

900 billing didn't take off because people were flocking in droves to their phone company to have it blocked.

Sounds like a good program, CJ.

I wish that the 900 option had gotten off the ground.
I use to work with a webmaster who had many 900
lines before he came to the internet. He was making
a mint, but then the *chargebacks* hit him and he
was forced to leave the business.

I still like the idea of using 900 lines instead of
fighting with Visa and their chargebacks.

I, like Mike, would like to see this subject discussed
on your radio show. Just put a gag on Gonzo so some
intelligent conversation can take place. :okthumb:

Leave it to Aussies to come up with a solutions.
Looks good CJ :okthumb:


>> but had about 60-70% confirm
thats actually pretty good if you ask me, considering surfers have NEVER seen this before. Once they get used to it, it'll be over 90% easy


CJ, i hope steve and the crew have trademarked this solution.



Last edited by slavdogg at Feb 11 2004, 08:25 PM

so what if it fails and his transaction has already been approved? What is the next step?[/b][/quote]
It's entirely upto the individual webmaster.

If the user can't confirm him/herself, there is a button he/she can push which will send a notification to the webmaster. It also allows the user to explain briefly why they can't authorize themself.

Then the webmaster can action it and approve them for access, or choose not too etc.

it just means that if you let these guys get access you don't have the extra step of proof to prove they signed up.

Slav, i guess i should say 'yes the patent is pending' or something LOL

if you think this is good, you should see some of the other products they have been building the last few months ... talk about SOLUTIONS!

this is just 1 little tiny bit of the overall project ... it makes me wet its so good ;-)

I think that any way to prevent chargebacks is good but unless it’s an industry standard and everyone does it its just one more deterrent in conversions. I liked the discussions on a global ticket system which is close to this and even like 900 but on credit cards.

I think this is a step in new ideas to come. Eventually we’ll all be forced to act in some direction.

D, how does this product effect conversions?

it happens AFTER the customer has signed up but BEFORE they are allowed into the members area ...

i'm confused by how this is supposed to effect conversions ...

D, how does this product effect conversions?

it happens AFTER the customer has signed up but BEFORE they are allowed into the members area ...

i'm confused by how this is supposed to effect conversions ...[/b][/quote]
I think what is being asked is ....

If a surfer signs up, but doesn't do the phone verification, does he still get access to the site or even get charged? My experiences were that if they didn't do the phone verification after signing up they werent charged and werent given access to the site ...... which means the webmaster was not paid for the signup.

Slav, i guess i should say 'yes the patent is pending' or something LOL

if you think this is good, you should see some of the other products they have been building the last few months ... talk about SOLUTIONS!

this is just 1 little tiny bit of the overall project ... it makes me wet its so good ;-)[/b][/quote]
Are you spamming this programme? Seriously it is not that good. It may be good, but "wetting good"? What if I am not around to approve all of this?

Since we use pennywize, got this in my email earlier. I think it's a good idea. As long as it's automated and FAST, I dont see it impacting conversions much. I'd like to see hard numbers though.

I just wonder why the processors aren't doing some of these kind of things themselves. Most of them dont even require an email acknowledgement or activation. I think you'd eliminate some of the bullshit if you'd just require the users to click an activation link in their email prior to inserting the username/password into the site.

I think what is being asked is ....

If a surfer signs up, but doesn't do the phone verification, does he still get access to the site or even get charged? My experiences were that if they didn't do the phone verification after signing up they werent charged and werent given access to the site ...... which means the webmaster was not paid for the signup.[/b][/quote]
answered above also sausage ;-)

how these transactions are handled is at the discretion of the webmaster running the site - this is obviously the area that requires tweaking based on your own results at your own sites ... i'm personally just letting those folks have access & will eat the potential chargebacks from those clients.

the bottom line is that to come in under 1% chargebacks you have to do SOMETHING ... if 70% or more of your transactions are protected by this system, 10 potential chargebacks becomes 3 potential chargebacks ...

spam = yes all existing clients of steve's company have been emailed.

but if you don't like it then fuck it, we may as well give up ... hell, if only us aussies had someone like you to help us out since the beginning maybe we would have done better in the industry :(

could you please show me how we can be whiney little nobodies with nothing better to do with our time than post SHIT on message boards instead of industry leaders, like we have been since the industry began? pretty please?

answered above also sausage ;-)

how these transactions are handled is at the discretion of the webmaster running the site - this is obviously the area that requires tweaking based on your own results at your own sites ... i'm personally just letting those folks have access & will eat the potential chargebacks from those clients.

the bottom line is that to come in under 1% chargebacks you have to do SOMETHING ... if 70% or more of your transactions are protected by this system, 10 potential chargebacks becomes 3 potential chargebacks ...[/b][/quote]
My cb rate is less than .5%. Now that I see you are an Aussie, I can see why you are pitching so hard. Don't be so obvious. It may well be a very good programme. I see a lot of weaknesses. It won't make anyone wet themselves for sure. Personally, I don't think it will last. I like Pennywize. They do a very fine job and I have personally recommended them to quite a few people. But I don't think this is a useful programme. Not because i don't like you but this is business here and I don't think it will fly.

processors aren't doing it because they are useless ... LOL

like you said, it all depends on how easy it is and the idea of clicking a link in a confirmation email is also an excellent way to do the approval. the good thing about this system however is that is has the extra step of using something *other* than your pc to confirm the transaction.

on one hand this might make it a bit slower but on the other hand, you CAN'T argue that someone stole your credit card, computer AND your cell or land telephone line.

while there are still a few things to be ironed out with the system, it is to be expected when so many countries are supported ... over the coming months the details will be refined and visa can stick their 1% chargebacks and their support of friendly fraud up their collective asses!

Slav, i guess i should say 'yes the patent is pending' or something LOL

if you think this is good, you should see some of the other products they have been building the last few months ... talk about SOLUTIONS!

this is just 1 little tiny bit of the overall project ... it makes me wet its so good ;-)[/b][/quote]
If it makes cj wet you know it's gotta be good!! :P

I will watch with great interest. If there is more, then maybe. So far, a bit of a wash. No offense intended but it just does not look great.

i don't need to pitch hard here js ... its called marketing, i'd teach you but i think it would be a waste.

aussies money helped build oprano js, your 'skills' built gfy ... nuff said huh?!

when you get more than a few signups a week you may see the use of this type of software :okthumb:

until then, best of luck with everything ;-)

when you get more than a few signups a week you may see the use of this type of software :okthumb:

until then, best of luck with everything ;-)[/b][/quote]
You have no idea, do you my Antipodean friend? You just live in your little dream world with your roos and wallabees and sheep and whatever else you get up to down there. I will continue to do what I do. Good luck with your pennywize pitch.

You have no idea, do you my Antipodean friend? You just live in your little dream world with your roos and wallabees and sheep and whatever else you get up to down there. I will continue to do what I do. Good luck with your pennywize pitch.[/b][/quote]
i guess i hit a personal note with the few signups a week huh?!?!? :rolleyes:

you are out of your element here sweetie, run back to the schoolyard - the kids will be impressed that you can spell antipodean!!

You have no idea, do you my Antipodean friend? You just live in your little dream world with your roos and wallabees and sheep and whatever else you get up to down there. I will continue to do what I do. Good luck with your pennywize pitch.[/b][/quote]
Damn J's that one stung good!

i guess i hit a personal note with the few signups a week huh?!?!? :rolleyes:

you are out of your element here sweetie, run back to the schoolyard - the kids will be impressed that you can spell antipodean!![/b][/quote]
The Thunder from DownUnder has been unleashed!

i guess i hit a personal note with the few signups a week huh?!?!? :rolleyes:

you are out of your element here sweetie, run back to the schoolyard - the kids will be impressed that you can spell antipodean!![/b][/quote]
No you didn't. But you do need a lesson in marketing. May I? You should never have a pissing match in the middle of a thread that you are pitching a product in.
Now, did the sheep hit a note with you?
Now if you think spelling Antipodean is difficult, you need to go back to school. Or are they hard to find in the "outback" or whatever it is you call it there. Probably just home, I am guessing.

so what you are saying is that pissing doesn't help marketing?!?!?!?

shit hey, i do have a lot to learn!!!!!! you should teach serge too, he has had it wrong all this time too!!!

I do actually agree with your overall point - i would never piss with anyone who had a valid point or concern. you, however, are just trying to start shit so why not use the opportunity to crush your pathetic self so I can get on with answering real questions that folks may have?

so in your gfy words ....

MUMMY HE STARTED IT!!!! :nyanya:

No, you silly little girl...I am just assuming you are a girl by your posting. You started the piss. Please re read the thread darling. And no one in their right mind would start piss trying to pitch something like this. Not quite sure why you did it. Must be that Aussie envy thing again.

No, you silly little girl...I am just assuming you are a girl by your posting. You started the piss. Please re read the thread darling. And no one in their right mind would start piss trying to pitch something like this. Not quite sure why you did it. Must be that Aussie envy thing again.[/b][/quote]
marketing a product does NOT require smiling sweetly when a moron like yourself jumps in with shit stirring comments ... in fact, if i did that, i think i would lose more respect than by pissing with you :rolleyes:

you have assumed i'm a girl? how clever after I said the product makes me wet :rolleyes:

if its ok with you, i'll continue this in the other thread, you are filling this one up with dribble (too weak to be called piss!!)

marketing a product does NOT require smiling sweetly when a moron like yourself jumps in with shit stirring comments ... in fact, if i did that, i think i would lose more respect than by pissing with you :rolleyes:

you have assumed i'm a girl? how clever after I said the product makes me wet :rolleyes:

if its ok with you, i'll continue this in the other thread, you are filling this one up with dribble (too weak to be called piss!!)[/b][/quote]
So sweety, I see you did not acknowledge the fact that you started the piss. OK, babe up to you, but you did. Holding your breath until you turn blue and crying in your 4x will not change that fact. Now say your sorry and go back to the regularly scheduled pitch.

I like the concept

The surfer has to jump through the hoop after they have paid, important consideration

and the Pennywize guys have done good work for years

You really are newbie deluxe, aren't you ?? :yowsa:

Now Vick. After they have paid, and say they are in Europe without a cellphone. Or they don't know how to text message. Or they are in North America and just say at that point their computer fails. What happens then?

Now Vick. After they have paid, and say they are in Europe without a cellphone. Or they don't know how to text message. Or they are in North America and just say at that point their computer fails. What happens then?[/b][/quote]
same thing that happens if your computer packs it in during a standard cc transaction ... in your support section, I would recommend adding a new paragraph to tell your surfer what to do in this case.

you could either a) have them email your support staff or b ) discuss with steve the other alternatives based on how you run your sites.

> Or they don't know how to text message.

for clarification, the surfer doesn't have to text message - they have to RECEIVE a text message with a pin code and enter this on the confirmation page before entering the members area. Most people are capable of pressing 'yes' or 'ok' on their phones to the message that says 'you have a new message from blah, read now?' if not, they might struggle a bit with browsing the members area and installing feed plugins etc!

same thing that happens if your computer packs it in during a standard cc transaction ... in your support section, I would recommend adding a new paragraph to tell your surfer what to do in this case.

you could either a) have them email your support staff or b ) discuss with steve the other alternatives based on how you run your sites.

> Or they don't know how to text message.

for clarification, the surfer doesn't have to text message - they have to RECEIVE a text message with a pin code and enter this on the confirmation page before entering the members area. Most people are capable of pressing 'yes' or 'ok' on their phones to the message that says 'you have a new message from blah, read now?' if not, they might struggle a bit with browsing the members area and installing feed plugins etc![/b][/quote]
but you gotta have the cell phone. I also want my customers to be able to join instantly. Even when I am not around. For instance, in a couple of days I am leaving for Asia to play. I don't need to be dealing with hooking up pissed off clients. I don't allow my staff access to my billing accounts, so it would just not work for me. This is not piss. This is business. Please do not take it personally. Piss about other things if you like.



Last edited by J'sdude at Feb 11 2004, 08:21 PM

Well there's your answer J'

Obviously I'm not qualified or versed in the program so I couldn't answer

But as a business person you have to appreciate the fact the an effort is being made to combat friendly fraud and to further lower CB ratios

Also as a forward thinking business owner you know the solution being offered will grow and undergo it's own evolution to met the demands of the marketplace - what you see today may be radically different from the solution you see 6 months from now as well as 2 years from now

I do appreciate the effort. I am sure a lot of time and devotion has gone in to its creation. I truly hope they can make it work. I have uses Pennywize on all of my sites since 2000 and they do a good job. I have also watched them grow, prosper and improve their product and I appluad them for that. It is the same with Netbilling. I have been with them right from the start and they did the same. They are now a solid and very reliable processing solution. In the very beginning they had their problems which they diligently worked out. If Pennywize can correct what I feel are the shortcomings of this system, I would gladly use them. I just don't feel it is ready yet.

js, if you had've stuck with this point in the first place instead of being a smart ass then we wouldn't have been dribbling!

yes you do have to have a cellphone currently for EU clients, as I said above, toll free numbers for EU are on their way. the biggest problem with this system currently is making it work internationally, which is nothing new - all cc companies, phone billing etc have this problem ... this system probably has the same or less amount of people who 'cant' use it than credit cards do.

"GSM is on target to achieve an historic milestone during the first quarter of 2004. With more than 970 million users at the end of December and an average of 15 million new users a month throughout 2003, the GSM Association, confidently expects the billionth GSM user to be connected during the first quarter"

i'd like a piece of a billion strong audience, no matter how many potential customers it misses!

and like vick said, in 6 months it may be totally different - this is what has worked in trials NOW and it will be changed as the times change.

I have to agree with CJ on this being a good program. Too many are sitting on their hands doing nothing.

Also here in Brisbane we have a much largeer number of quite successful porn companies who have proven to be more innovative and proactive than most overseas. I am sure Steve wouldn't be launching a product and putting his reputation on the line if it wasn't well tested and effective.

That could very well be. But reputation is not what will put money in the bank. Hell even NASA crashed a couple of space shuttles and they have a good rep. I just don't see where this will work for the average web owner. I truly wish I could see it. If you could point it out to me, then I would be willing to give it a try. Please convince me and I truly mean that. Pennywize is a great company.