http://www.duocash.com/merchants/AdultMerc...hantInfo3.0.pdf - just got an email saying these guys are now offering adult transactions ...

has anyone had any experience using this system for mainstream or for adult?

interested to hear your views on the whole idea of prepaid phone cards for porn access ... i have always thought it an interesting idea but difficult to implement but this seems really easy ...

I've always liked the concept too. Online purchasing of it helps solve the lack of real-world distribution problems too. Apparently they can be bought by phone in the US and Canada, and anywhere (?) in the world via a checking account. Nice find, CJ.

Theyve been arond now for over 2 years.
As an ex-competitor Ive had both extensive conversations with them as well as done a ton of research on the subject and the company.

Hit me in email and Ill be happy to foward you all the comparison charts etc that I have from a year ago.

Although they have been in biz for 2 years, this appears to be the first time they have offered adult services ...

little concerned that they are also processing for kezaa ... talk about jumping on the 'high risk' bandwagon!!

but, they allow several standard phone cards (not sure which companies) to be spent at sites who are using them to process ... that part makes me excited ... if I think of the number of times i've bought a phonecard in the states while i'm travelling only to come home with half of the credit still left, i'd probably have several hundred dollars laying around ...

someone told me a number this morning ... there is $600 000 000 sitting dormant on phonecards at any one time ...

IM not sure why they are just now talking about adult. I met them at both shows last year. They had a booth in Florida and Vegas. The adult restriction never came up. BTW there were 2 other prepaid psuedo solutions at both shows as well.

The challenge for every company has been the distrubution angle. Of course had the mainstream boys down here gotten funding instead of worrying about lectures on sexual harrassment wed know if our distribution model was valid.

Everybody that has tried this idea was banking on making money off of the float and the breakage...

The phone card model of distribution is a good one, but it has problems matching up with adult the way business is currently done.

First off, the retail merchants only want to stock your lowest denominations. The big seller is the $20 card. Now the retailer wants a cut of that, there are a few ways to deal him his cut, but suffice to say that $20 face value is probably going to be more like $17 by the time the poor guy goes to use it.

Currently webmasters do not like to sell memberships that cheap. So that's one problem. We haven't even talked about trying to carve off a transaction fee for the processor on top of all of this. And also keep in mind that it is an absolute bitch to setup recurring with a pre-paid model.

It is a good solution for micropayments....I can see some real use for a one time viewing of a video or something like that.

No one has solved the pre-paid equation for adult yet. I have a few ideas on my shelf that I'd like to test that are variations of the theme, but they require more of a time, money and technical investment than anyone is currently willing to throw around. GonZo and I tried it with some mainstreamers last year.....we wont be doing that again.

Every process I've seen or read about deals with some sort of online payment system, or card funding....... is there a reason online processing is the only thing being thought about?



Last edited by fatbaby at Dec 10 2003, 11:03 PM

Actually with pre-paid, especially phone cards, you can buy them from a retailer which essentially funds them with cash.

But this is also one of the things that makes recurring near impossible....without a tie back to a credit card or bank account, there's no way to refill it....if it's empty, it's empty.

We can install a callback door and then send em an address to put the check in the mail. That will probably be made obsolete by the Dragon BBS Credit Card door though.

Gonzo :)

Dragon BBS was many many years ago. I knew alot of sysops who used there shit....

There are two big hurdles in pre-paid cards. One is distribution, the other acceptance. If you arent doing a card with a Visa or Mastercard logo on it, you have to convince the merchants to accept the product, and make the changes necessary for use. No merchant wants to go to that expense unless there are already a widely distributed network of cards. Cardholders don't want cards they cant use everywhere, the push, especially here in the states by consumers, is to get rid of all the different store brand cards and so forth we used to have and just keep the big brand cards to use everywhere.

Thus you create a Catch -22 situation -- if you cant get merchants to go to the time and expense to accept the cards, then you cant get consumers to get the cards and use them.

Perfect example of this situation is Discover. Owned and backed by Sears, one of the worlds largest domestic consumer creditors and been around for at least 15 years with decent distribution. With the ability to use those cards in EVERY Sears on the planet including catalog sales from day one, where is the distribution on them today? When they first came out they were sending them to Sears customers like candy. If you didn't activate the first one they would keep on sending them to you until you did, even though you could only use it at Sears. But they had a tremendous credit market base to build from with all those Sears cards out there...

The issuing side of Visa has no problem telling you that it takes millions of cards actively being used to begin to have a viable brand. Mastercard and Visa running on the same platform gives them even more viability among consumers, since pretty much every merchant that takes one takes the other -- there's nothing radically different about the process.

Think about Amex too, I want to say its been around longer than Visa and not quite so long as Mastercard.

If you look at the percentage of your sales broken down by payment method you start to see just how lopsided the distribution is on it.

Every possible payment option is a good option -- there is no doubt of that in my mind. Just realize that so long as Visa/MC are an option for consumers that is what most of them will take.

I believe the figure that was quoted recently was that 12% of consumer transactions worldwide were handled with those products. That is a truly scary number.

Vending Machines.... In adult stores, titty bars, juice bars, bathrooms...

with an enter the amount you want to buy option.....

You put the cash in the machine, card pops out precoded for the dollar amount....

end of the month, retailer gets his cut from the machine tally.....

*************************************
2nd thought (wow, 2 in a row, damn red letter day)

How come anyone has not set up an "adult only" version of online paying like paypal ?

Shouldn't be that hard to do....hmmm.



:huh:

Deja Vu...

Wheres that thread when we were discusssing how viable Epassporte could be?

I still agree with some of the things you say and disagree with others.


Distribution and acceptance remain the challenge. And that goes for Epassporte too...

Eggsackly....

Merchant acceptance, in the form of the webmaster, is actually the easier part of this equation as long as you dont make it a pain in the ass to signup. It gets easier every day, as I think the majority of us would try putting a button for just about anything on our join page so long as it didn't preclude using one of the existing forms of payment.

The users on the other hand are a lot tougher to crack. You've gotta some give them incentive to want to buy in and gain their trust. At the same time, the buy in process has to be both painless but also secure against scam. That's a *tough* formula.

I'm sure you notice the big Visa logo on every ePassporte card ;)

And you still cant imagine how much its cost in development even with that...

'02 summer internext in Miami there was a group there pushing pre-paids. I believe it was called 6card.com. Cards looked real nice, had huge porn stars on the front of them with enough clothing on so that the cards could sit right next to a register at a kid's eye-level at 7-11 and not have anyone screaming.

Quite a number of problems with them. Paysites don't want to join the list of sites that accept that card unless there's a certain number of cards currently in use. It's just not worth their time to do the coding. And without a big list of sites you can use the card at, you have a hard time getting footmen to do the distribution for you. They want a product they know will sell, something they can slap down on the counter and say "Look, for $20 your customer gets access to 200 full-fledge porn sites"... not "...access to 10 full-fledge porn sites".

The store merchant gets a cut, the footman gets a cut, the regional distributor gets a cut... add webmasters into that mix with the percentages they're demanding these days and you may as well count on pennies per card once it gets back to your bank account. Although the webmasters *would* cut out the footman and the store merchant; the distributor could just mail it out direct.

The real juice to what Duocash is doing is that you can *also* use it as a genuine phone card. That's gonna be the kicker. There's already a ton of phone card distribution going on; the footmen who can walk in with a card that has a bonus of being able to use it online is going to have a hot product on his hands from the merchant's point of view.
This *could* be big; depending on the consumer's reaction to it in the brick-and-mortar stores.

R_n is the *only* person I see making a visible push to put a porn credit card into the hands of the surfers, with his CyberAgeCard.com site. AFAIK you can't use it anywhere else than on his sites, but it's a start. (Slightly off-topic but close enough... it's cards.)



Last edited by Carrie at Dec 11 2003, 03:04 AM

I know of a couple of companies in Spain working with prepaid cards.

They sell 20 euro cards in bulk to sexshops for 10 euros a piece,
the cards work only with their site though.

But if you've got the distribution covered,
it's just the same as paying the webmaster 50%,
you get the other 50% in advance and there's no processing fees,
just the cost of printing the cards.

CyberAge isn't Ron, fyi, Carrie, unless he's on a secret buying spree ;)

Edit to add -- putting a card with a near naked chick on a convenience store counter or in a mans wallet isn't going to sell more porn, it's just creating a stigma for the consumer. Perfect example of this is the funny look on so many mens faces when they are buying condoms ;)



Last edited by *KK* at Dec 11 2003, 01:43 AM

Hellpuppy, I was thinking the same line as you with both of your posts above ...

Many adult merchants may not be prepared to sell a subscription for $9.95 or $4.95 or whatever but I am ;-) At the end of the day, we are all throwing shit at the wall and seeing which chunks stick in the processing world at the moment and this company *seems* to make the process a lot easier than the setup for anything else we've tried lately ...

IF its easy as they claim it is, there may be a lot of clientelle with the attitude 'may as well give it a go' ...

The deciding factor for whether this company succeeds or not seems to be whether they can take advantage of the dormant funds on a big enough market share of phone card companies ... ie those companies who already have cards in consumers hands

lots of good info on this page, thanks all!

It often amazes me how many people you meet in person that really doesnt pay any attention to who you are...

Carrie did you get any information from them on all of this?

Hellpuppy, I was thinking the same line as you with both of your posts above ...

Many adult merchants may not be prepared to sell a subscription for $9.95 or $4.95 or whatever but I am ;-) At the end of the day, we are all throwing shit at the wall and seeing which chunks stick in the processing world at the moment and this company *seems* to make the process a lot easier than the setup for anything else we've tried lately ...

IF its easy as they claim it is, there may be a lot of clientelle with the attitude 'may as well give it a go' ...

The deciding factor for whether this company succeeds or not seems to be whether they can take advantage of the dormant funds on a big enough market share of phone card companies ... ie those companies who already have cards in consumers hands

lots of good info on this page, thanks all![/b][/quote]
Putting all this together isnt as easy as it seems.
Ive already said that this is the slice of pie that nobody is marketing to.
Maybe Carrie will find all that 6card stuff....

I'm seeing more places that let you call 900 numbers to get their memberships.Seeing it in online gambling sites too with making deposits. Is this a good option?

Actually, the REAL kicker is that DUOCASH is NOT selling phone cards. What we are doing is to act as the VISA model.... ie, we are ENABLING existing phone cards that are already on the shelves.

Many of you (KK of course also....HI Ya sweetie!) are right when you say the problem is in dsitribution. The same thing happened with Amex....they issue a proprietary card that they must 1) Convince the merchant to accept while 2) get the customer to carry. That's a closed system and it's VERY hard to start and grow.

With the open system, such as Visa....ANY bank can issue the card, and any card can carry the logo.

This is how we have done it with DUOCASH. You can envision the telcos and the telcard companies as the banks....any of which can carry the DUOCASH logo, and we are the interchange through which the monies are transfered to the merchants.

As to the denomination problems, There are new phone cards out now that can be loaded at the point of sale.....up to $100.... and we are also about 4 weeks from the customer being able to reload the cards by phone or online.

As for distribution, we are currently completing deals in the EU and Australia....as well as the far east....for distribution in these regions as well as the US.

If any of you have any questions at all about this..... I have no life (:-) ), and you can always reach me at
+1 954 650 5789
Michael Sperber
mike@duocash.com

and by the way....we have found a way around all of the phone card 50% fees as well.

In addition....since we are right now closing some VERY large deals in the mainstream....music downloading, ringtones, etc.... The market awareness for the general consumer will be that much higher.

Michael Sperber
mike@Duocash.com
+1 954 650 5789

Okay someone knock me over the head. I thought Cyberage=Ron pre-retirement (cough).
It's probably all the "Cyber" stuff sticking in my head.

Gonzo I *do* still have some of the 6card promo material, I think I was digging through that Internext's box of stuff just last night... I'll check and see if a certain fur-wearing person's name is on anything :awinky:

Sperbonzo...
So you're not interested in physical distribution, because you're going to use cards that are already in circulation?
What's the process to be able to accept Duocash on your paysites?
What are you guys doing to actively promote/market this to both the consumer and the webmasters?

No, it's not that we AREN'T interested in Physical distribution....we are continuously looking for more telcard distributors to become DUOCASH enabled. It is that we are not trying to get retail merchants to carry a proprietary card. We don't have to try to get those retail merchants to pick up and carry another product....we just have the telcard distributors themselves add the DUOCASH function to their already existing product.

As for integration.....it is fairly simple, usually it takes about half a day on our side to set up the account, and then a day or so on the merchant side...with a few days for testing. It is basically just a webcall to the Duocash gateway system.

We are now starting to promote actively to the adult webmaster community (One of the reasons that they hired me), as well as making big pushes in music downloads...rigntones, etc..... Watch the newspapers for some big deals coming around in the next month or 2. It's going to be splashy! :)

Actually with pre-paid, especially phone cards, you can buy them from a retailer which essentially funds them with cash.

But this is also one of the things that makes recurring near impossible....without a tie back to a credit card or bank account, there's no way to refill it....if it's empty, it's empty.[/b][/quote]
Actually, as I said earlier....in about 4 weeks or so, reloading the cards by phone or online will become possible

The only sticking point I see with something like this is it'll be harder to keep minors out....if a 15-16 year old kid can purchase a phonecard, this could potentially be a way for them to access porn sites....

Hi Michael!!

Thanks for stopping by ;-)

I like that you are attacking the distribution problems by going after deals with companies who already have distribution deals ... curious to know how many and which companies you already have on board that allow duocash sites to buy stuff with their phone cards ...

ie, how much money is already sitting there for the taking??!?!?! ;-)

btw, did I ever send you any of those photos from the day at steve irwin's park?! I came across them the other day and there are some funny ones ;-)

Right now we have enabled the following:

I.D.T.
Quest
G.T.S.
Network I.P.
Onlinetelcard

and we are going for more, domestically and offshore...all the time.

needless to say.....Millions of dollars are there.

....and NO, you never did send me those shots from the park....or the beach! I may try to make it back down to Oz in the beginning of next year, but are you coming to internext? I'd love to try to drink you under the table this time! :awinky:

>>I'd love to try to drink you under the table this time!

Gee that would be hard :rolleyes:

I saw LIVE, live in concert the other night & had 1 drink at the bar before we went in and I was tipsy ... not quite the aussie alcohol machine I used to be :P

stupid liver!

will shoot you over some of the pics in a sec - i think there's one of you with an albino kangaroo LOL

The poker site I play on has something similar in place. You can buy a prepaid 'phone card' and then directly transfer the value of the 'card' to your account. No physical card is issued, just a card number.

We do deal with some gambling sites, and they are starting to come to us in big numbers now that word is getting out. We actually have a deal to enable onlinetelcard (as I mentioned above), and they issue virtual phone cards that can be used right away for either calls or for DUOCASH web merchants.

Hi Michael. If you have an answer to SykkBoy's question, I too would like to hear it. Thanks.

Hi Michael. If you have an answer to SykkBoy's question, I too would like to hear it. Thanks.[/b][/quote]
...they dont card you when you buy a prepaid phone card.
Thats why the sticking issue of distribution keeps coming up.
Its slick to be able to piggy back that backbone though.

If you bought a 6card it had to be gotten from behind the counter from the clerk. Just like for beer and tobacco...they'd card your ass.

*bump*

very interesting

As far as the Age verification issue is concerned, we will be partnering with various companies that perform egs verification services....but in the end it will be up to the merchant. DUOCASH acts as an interchange for the various prepaid phone cards to be used for online purchasesof many different types not just adult. As with any interchange, the merchant or reseller is responsible for age verification.

So the answer is no...
Back to them days of getting a copy of the dirvers in the mail.

So the answer is no...
Back to them days of getting a copy of the dirvers in the mail.[/b][/quote]
Not exactly.....there are many VERY inexpensive services out there.....IDVerify, Tritech, etc....that can do the age verification thing for you

So the answer is no.

Ah, well.

Well, like I said, we are the interchange. If a certain industry has certain requirments, it's quite possible that someone will step up and start a third party reseller gateway of Duocash processing that will offer a lot of the things that adult webmasters want......Just as what happened with VISA/MC.
You can't go to Visa or an acquirring bank and tell them that you want....realtime reporting, and affiliate tracking for example. You have to go through gateways and third party processing for that. (Unless you build/buy it on your own, as with people that have their own merchant account)

Well, as it turns out, we WILL be partnering with a company that will supply all of the features that the smaller adult merchant (who have less technical resources), will need.

Affiliate tracking, password managment, age verification, etc, etc, will be put together for you. We expect to have this "3rd party" style system worked out prior to the show in Vegas. Thus we will have both a direct transactional hook-up available for the bigger players who already have all of their own systems in place; and will be able to refer the smaller webmasters, that need these systems provided for them, to a solution as well.

So this should answer/fix some of the questions that you have had.

An all-in-one solution including age verification makes this much more attractive! :okthumb:

Sounds awesome.

I sent you and email to discuss distribution. It must have got lost in the Xmas rush.

Sounds awesome.

I sent you and email to discuss distribution. It must have got lost in the Xmas rush.[/b][/quote]
Hey there Gonzo....Did you send me an email? I'm not seeing it....or just not recognising it. Was this regarding Cyprus? Hit me up again, or let me know your email and I'll send you some info.

Hey there Gonzo....Did you send me an email? I'm not seeing it....or just not recognising it. Was this regarding Cyprus? Hit me up again, or let me know your email and I'll send you some info.[/b][/quote]
gonzo@gonzo.com

The #1 rated addy in my spam filter! :nyanya:

The #1 rated addy in my spam filter! :nyanya:[/b][/quote]
Your jealous I been using it for 10 years.

gonzo@gonzo.com[/b][/quote]
Ah HA! I DID send you a reply! Did you get it?