this was posted at some other board and if there's anything I can do to help KC, let me know. If you need a shoulder to cry on, Brand0n's here for you





The Hun speaks:


Registered: Jan 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 697


Ok, Sextracker is now no longer allowed on submissions to the Yellow Pages. I also blacklisted paycounter for the exact same reason. Blind ads and dialer loads, and this time immediately after clicking their counter, which is clealy designed to make visitors believe there's some sort of movie or something...

I hope there will be a good alternative counter soon :nyanya:

King Weasel will save KC,
he always comes to his friends rescue!

I think worldsex.com is going the same route on the BANnage of 4th of July!. :headwall:

I just wish TGP guys were just as hard when it came to free hardcore content:

I wonder what have been the most expensive event for the adult industry:

1. dialers
2. free hardcore content

:unsure:

Is this just ironically funny?

Let's give the surfer free stuff but not try to monetize?

Lol.. you sound incredulous Vick! :P

Set you brain to stunned then check this... Voltar Posted a mini rant about being rejected from the Hun today allegedly due to his "advertising being likely to pull too many clicks" :yowsa:

It is good the way the Hun always has the balls to tell people his reasons though. :P

hmmmm...I always thought of Hun to be a Porn Mother Theresa,
with surfers and webmasters being a subject of his generosity,
selflessness
;-)))))

Opti, I think this is gallery from Voltar, which was rejected by the hun?:

http://www.bobtheknob.com/xxx-pussy-pic.html

Now, the hun probably have 1000s of new submissions he could list, so he choosed not to list this, which is fair (its his own business)... however if I bought gallery spots on the hun (or other tgps for that matter), then I´m sure I would be willing to pay even more, if the traffic was better converting and retaining - how can TGPs do this, well they could allow only paid galleries to show hardcore (with a few rules like no cumshot, long videos etc.), and free submissions to only show softcore or censored hardcore. This would leave the "hardcore" promotion to people who understand that there is a fine line between turning someone on, and making them cum, which again will mean more $$$ for everyone.

Yeah, some TGPs could loose bookmarks short term, however if they got enough paid spots to fill up their daily submissions need, then problem is solved, because the paid spots are hardcore.

Let the hardcore spots be controlled by someone who actual cares about their product/$$$$$$, and let the free submissions be for them who have unique marketing skills (ex. making censored hardcore, looking hardcore).

ahhh... the old days...

I remember when I used to use loads of bogus emails to submit my own accidentally on purpose non ndexed image folders to him and then once traffic started flick them ;-)))

Til he wrote to me and said , "Nick , some lil bastards are finding your image folders and submitting them , I just felt I should let you know"

hehehehe Really? , I came clean , and he said ok don't flick them for a few hours ...nice :)

Haven't sent a gallery to the hun since prolly 98 LOL.

Anyways his site , his rules.You want his traffic , you obey his rules.

Anyways , I thought he sold up ?

Be wonderful if we self regulate Rolo... but there is too many people ready to jump under the guard of those that allow it.

Free hardcore is here until someone makes it unprofitable or illegal for affiliate programs to take traffic from it imho.



Aaahhhh... where's Baldbastard? :-))

(that was also a nasty trick to do to another webmaster when badwidth was 8 bucks a GB too )

I actually used to think Hun was a bit an asshole for listing those ... i forgot about that... he really does like to give it all away doesnt he!!

Amazing how those non indexed folders used to be found in the old days
ah ha ha ha ha :D

Bottom line is it is Patrick's site and he can do with it as he pleases -
even if it is the Mother Teresa of porn and has hurt everyone's pocket long term including his own (sort if interesting hes still in the game, maybe he really does love the surfers)

But the abundance of material to be GIVEN away there still makes me scratch my head

I bought banner space there back in 2000 and couldn't convert it, can't imagine how challenging it is now - guess someone may be converting it or no one would be buying gallery placements - unless they have $ to burn and just like to see counter numbers spin

Remember how a pop up that looked like an open index drew hits like strippers to Ben Affleck?

Sweeeet :)

Also remember that guy ,Andy , was it ? That did that bannerswap thing?

It was a great way to test what surfers clicked on. :)

I remember sitting with GG and Tommy and telling them how to increase there $$$ from all the traffic they controlled and watching there faces turn evil.....

LOL

Evil huh?

:lol:

Andy Dunn....sewswap before Gamma got it.

Incredible tool...incredible newsletter.

What if we could make it more profitable? Like I described - having the free hardcore only controlled by people who want to turn it into $$$$$$? The only sacrifice is prehaps some lost bookmarks, but lets say the gallery spot value goes up 50% (higher price, and more paid spots), however the traffic drops 30% (which I think is worst case)? That is still more $$$ at the end of the day :-)

TGPs are like old houses, and today alot of them are controlled by slumlord mentality, however if they cleaned up their part of town - got rid of the people who do not pay rent, rob the stores etc, and improve their buildings and surroundings, so people with money wanted to live there, then they could make more money...

I'd like to offer some informed input Rolo... but I dont know sweet FA about TGPing really.. have a few linksites though and there seems to be almost dailly discussion amongst that group about how to best bring in a paid partner account system.

Not a paid spot thing like TGPs... a one off fee to buy a partner account that all (or lots) of linksites might use like a whitelist. The cost of $50 or so a pop each time a scammer gets banned would hopefully kill off a lot of the problem kids immediately.

Your idea of only allowing partners to submit hardcore content could work wth that... but you still have to convince everyone... and many just couldn't care less about it ..

I also think those few bookmarkers are a lot more valued by most sites than you imagine.

I'm with you on the plan... but am sceptical you can convince the traffic hubs to all agree to one standard and all do it at once... But if they do, I think I will start up up an all hardcore TGP myself. ( being really honest about it)

These are good ideas. Something we have been thinking about with Amateur Index for awhile.

Mike,

Amateur index would be a big drawcard to webmasters in that sort of system.. The time is ripe for someone to do this first and well... Would tie up a captive audience of almost all the daily workhorse webmasters eyes too.

It needs a few other key people like Tommy, Greenguy, Penisbot, Richard's et al to support a global system to make it work. But they would all be open to a good proposal at the minute imho.

I wouldn't be talking this up so publicly if I thought I could do it myself btw. Just really want it to happen asap to make my life easier... and as I think it will really make a sharp difference to the dollars generated overall by Linklists.

I´m not sure I have to convince anyone, since the TGP model is already changing - maybe in 1-2 years most TGPs will only have paid spots and hosted galleries, and then TGP owners will start looking at $, when choosing which galleries get listed (many are already, however they have not started the part of optimizing their own product, but this will come when more focus is at $, than on traffic).

The "traffic wanking game" is getting less important - as said in the hun posts, he needed a counter, so he can sell gallery spots, not because of an ego trip (ok, maybe that part will never die off, but it will be less important). What I want to know as a gallery spot buyer is the demographics of the tgp, and the traffic numbers - I´m not really interested if the site is #1, or #1000 on a counter list.

Free submissions to TGPs, Link Lists, SEs etc. should be replaced with something where both parties have an interest in making $.

Out of all of you good folks offering solutions and input.
How many of you currently run TGPs?

From what Ive read some of you guys are actually defending the use of autodownloaders and dialers?

Am I misreading somethng?

sites llike the HUN want all the surfers to come in, look around, click some links and come back again real soon...same with me, thats how we make our money.

i want a surfer to be able to come in and know that he wont be impeded or violated by unwanted downloads, dialers and console hells. i want him to be a happy guy, i want him to book mark me, i want him to have confidence in my site.
But most important, i want him in my stats, so i can sell some advertising :)

really?
I was positive yuo only do it for webmaster's benefit so they can make more money than you and visit your grave on the yearly basis
;-))))

really?
I was positive yuo only do it for webmaster's benefit so they can make more money than you and visit your grave on the yearly basis
;-)))) [/b][/quote]
ya, i dont recall ever twisting anyones arm to send me a gallery. i dont tell them to use hardcore content either. but its a way to get some easy traffic and a lot of webmasters seem to like easy traffic.

getting a lot of surfers to one page, gives the TGP owner quite a few options, selling spots or banner ads, sending the traffic to his own sites, selling traffic to a broker or trading some off hoping to get some new surfers in return. this is why we dont like these console chains and autoload crap that stops the flow.

how happy would you be if you bought the number 3 gallery on shemp, but the number 2 gallery right before you had an autodownload dialer or consol hell on it.... so it works better if all galleries contain decent sample pix that match the paysite and if the paysite tour can get the surfer to continue on to the sign up page.

I'd say that Shemp should be castrated...and I know a few girls who would do it for free
;-))))

I'd say that Shemp should be castrated...and I know a few girls who would do it for free
;-)))) [/b][/quote]
haha, actually i only have blanks in my gun these days ;)

Gonzo your right. not one mention of sex tracker or paycounter dialer gifts or spyware shit. people just don't get it. this last month we have heard nothing but spyware problems worldwide. computers crashes, files changing, ect... Don't people know this isn't gonna fly anymore? Let's ask KC if dialers are more profitable today or last month.













BTW, The Hun is looking for a simple counter that's counts. nothing more, nothing less....

A dirty little secret I'll share with the Oprano faithful, I've only been submitting EGC galleries to non-nude TGP's and the conversions are amazing, I'm doing a steady 1:200, now granted those are Hun numbers hitting the site, but I'm very happy with the ROI.

The NN guys have really cleaned up their act and gotten rid of all the underage bullshit and the traffic is amazing. I see more and more traffic coming in by the day and the ratios are very steady. Even back in the day when I was paying a mortage and living well just from TGP listings, I was always of the mindset that a TGP gallery should be a tease for the site and it made for better conversions and I never had to worry about adding hardcore content to the galleries.

We're actually going to start adding non-nude galleries for our affiliates to promote and I see a lot more sponsors getting ready to do it (who aren't already doing it).

ya, i dont recall ever twisting anyones arm to send me a gallery. i dont tell them to use hardcore content either. but its a way to get some easy traffic and a lot of webmasters seem to like easy traffic.

getting a lot of surfers to one page, gives the TGP owner quite a few options, selling spots or banner ads, sending the traffic to his own sites, selling traffic to a broker or trading some off hoping to get some new surfers in return. this is why we dont like these console chains and autoload crap that stops the flow.

how happy would you be if you bought the number 3 gallery on shemp, but the number 2 gallery right before you had an autodownload dialer or consol hell on it.... so it works better if all galleries contain decent sample pix that match the paysite and if the paysite tour can get the surfer to continue on to the sign up page. [/b][/quote]
I think what we all are getting around to saying is that hopefully the free for all attitude with some TGPs but more so the gallery submitters will swing back to more of a conservative attitude.

I think what happened over the last few years are a lot of post owners go away from the fact that a TGP is a disguised FPA to whatever they are advertising.
Not Shemp but some of the other TGPs have hired screeners or reviewers that got high on the power.

I remember one instance when I was working a DRM solutions 2 years ago. I dropped out a sample of the MGP I was going to submit with 90 less than 90 seconds of crystal clear pure video clips. And yes I stopped the clip before the surfer got off or saw more than just a tease. One reviewer told me that the thumbs in the gallery looked like screen captures and that I should have cleaned them up to be magazine quaility before submitting them.

Then you have very restrictive rules about numbers,sizes,links, etc etc etc. What Im saying is that the rules made it hard to get noticed so a lot more submitters began to offer more hardcore samples in order to rise about.

Just like the old billing model that we are seeing rotting on the vine... the TGP model is going to need to be revised as well.

Thats why is important for Oprano webmasters to have a meaningful dialog with folks like Shemp. Nobody is here to defend TGPs as a concept we hope to start a dialog to refine them.

More and more paysite owners have begun to realize that TGP traffic is the last easy way to generate clicks left in existance. Hopefully we can work together and improve that business model.

I think that hidden autodownloaders are not good for the adult industry image, and I also think that TGPs debating about what takes place at a site/counter they are linking too is their right, and that they have the right to remove the site/counter from their TGPs - they set their own rules.

However I think the ironic part is the complaining, about what is good/bad from a TGPs point of view... Sure TGPs build their traffic from bookmarks to their sites, and to get a bookmark you need to have a site, which the surfer would like to visit again. TGPs do this by adding new content daily, and thats also ok, but the ironic part comes when TGPs tries to look at everything from a surfers/bookmark point of view - they need to modify this a bit, and look what will be good for:

- TGP, who wants bookmarks
- Surfer, who wants content
- Paysite, who wants business

Its like a symbiosis, where they only can survive and prosper, if they all have room to breath.

Until recently TGPs, had no direct interest in seeing this symbiosis surviving (prehaps some were not aware that it exist), however with gallery spots and hosted galleries, then more TGPs start to see the importance of the symbiosis. What is important once TGPs sees that boomarks, content and business are all tied together, is that they stop looking at the surfer as a "victim" who needs to be nursed and paysites as evildoers, but instead look at him as a "consumer" who needs to be optimized for profit and paysites as partners.

So lets say we have 2 galleries with same model, layout, and paysite, but with 2 different set of pics/videos:

- Hardcore
- Softcore

Which one will get listed? I´m thinking most TGPs would take the hardcore version - maybe I´m wrong?

But I agree with your observation - paysites can do alot, which would have little impact on traffic or tgps, but hopefully bring more sales... ex. if giving out free content, then do not include the cumshot/moneyshot, offering free hosting to affilates limited the size of video files etc. that would be start. Cause and Effect :)

We will do this in the future :okthumb:

So lets say we have 2 galleries with same model, layout, and paysite, but with 2 different set of pics/videos:

- Hardcore
- Softcore

Which one will get listed? I´m thinking most TGPs would take the hardcore version - maybe I´m wrong?

But I agree with your observation - paysites can do alot, which would have little impact on traffic or tgps, but hopefully bring more sales... ex. if giving out free content, then do not include the cumshot/moneyshot, offering free hosting to affilates limited the size of video files etc. that would be start. Cause and Effect :) [/b][/quote]
of course i can only speak for my own site, but 99% of our submits come from our preferred submitters. these are webmasters that have a password and have been prescreened to submit galleries...ie ...i trust them....

they can submit anything they like, from hardcore to babes in bikinis. the surfer will determine what is profitable for them, not me.

you sort of make it sound like TGPs should be a support group for the sponsors and paysites, we exist to promote you and we should loosen up a bit so you will make more money..thats not how i view it....if i have to choose between keeping the surfer happy or a paysite owner happy, the surfer wins everytime...

The biggest problem i see with TGPs is that there are too many of them. They appear to be real easy to operate, so they attract the newbs. And of course its 10 times worse since the sponsors started giving away all the free content, galleries, hosting etc.

Amazing. the Hun's banned nearly everyone at some point or another from being on pages he lists. That is his prerogative, after all it's his traffic.

But to sit here and dog on KC for trying to make a buck is just ridiculous.

im such a noob on this board i dont even know who KC is....

I just returned from a beautiful Alaskan fishing trip so I haven't been able to follow this issue.

I'll contact the Hun and listen to his concerns and hopefully he and I can resolve them.

Consoles and Dialers are a part of this business and as the value of traffic continues to decline they have become valuable revenue streams. This is especially important when PayCounter buys the traffic at a nickel per click!!!

For the record, I have NEVER autoinstalled dialers or spyware, toolbars, adware, etc.

Thanks KK.

MasterP/Pornstar2Pac/Free-Poker-Ideaman doesn't care about counters or TGPs... he just wants to kick a little dirt in my face. Like you said before, "I've moved on".

I was being diplomatic :awinky: I would like to talk $$$$$, but I have found that TGPs are not tuned to the same business frequency as paysites, so we often misunderstand each other and our motives. But communication helps us understand each other :-)

My point is exactly that TGPs should not change their ideology, because of a single paysite, but because it will strengthen the TGPs... it will mean more target and arousing content/ads for TGPs, bringing more quality bookmarks, but also it brings more money to the TGP and paysite, because the surfer is exposed to more and better products. Sure there will also be benafits for paysites, but thats the idea behind paysites - that people pay to watch the content = $$$$$$ (money is not bad)

The problem for TGPs who want to make their money on pills, dvds etc., but not on content is that paysites will eventual start making their own TGPs to keep the surfer for as long as possible, or trade him with other sponsor´s galleries, tgps etc. Sponsors like BangBros, Pornkings etc. have already started their TGPs, but what will happende when 100s of other sponsors get the same idea, and start making a business out of TGPs?

Which TGP model will have the best survival chances?

- The version with focus on free
- The version with focus on marketing

I'm glad I caught that post KC.. was starting to get the impression it was a given that you had been!

I was being diplomatic :awinky: I would like to talk $$$$$, but I have found that TGPs are not tuned to the same business frequency as paysites, so we often misunderstand each other and our motives. But communication helps us understand each other :-)

My point is exactly that TGPs should not change their ideology, because of a single paysite, but because it will strengthen the TGPs... it will mean more target and arousing content/ads for TGPs, bringing more quality bookmarks, but also it brings more money to the TGP and paysite, because the surfer is exposed to more and better products. Sure there will also be benafits for paysites, but thats the idea behind paysites - that people pay to watch the content = $$$$$$ (money is not bad)

The problem for TGPs who want to make their money on pills, dvds etc., but not on content is that paysites will eventual start making their own TGPs to keep the surfer for as long as possible, or trade him with other sponsor´s galleries, tgps etc. Sponsors like BangBros, Pornkings etc. have already started their TGPs, but what will happende when 100s of other sponsors get the same idea, and start making a business out of TGPs?

Which TGP model will have the best survival chances?

- The version with focus on free
- The version with focus on marketing [/b][/quote]
its all competition isnt it, free enterprise at its best...

your point that the sponsors/paysites will start or have started their own TGPs only shows that they are coming around to accept our model as a viable and profitable way to do the business. Now if they tamper too much with it and start to work the surfer over with a barrage of bullshit, then their traffic will drop like a big rock in a bucket of water.

The smart sponsors already know the secret...make good simple galleries, with decent content that will be found on the paysite. Let your content presell your tour, let your tour give the surfer more reason to continue on. Make sure the members area actually gets some updates and provides what the tour said it would. And finally, develop a strong relationship with those TGPs that can market and display your galleries/tours to surfers that actually have the potential to buy something.

FREE is a very powerful word, especially on the interent. i always thought that the average surfer thinks he has paid his dues with his monthly isp bill. So by the nature of the business, you will have a ton of freeloaders. Its how skillful you are at extracting $$ from those people, that will determine how big your bank account is at the end of the year.

The most important thing I've gained from this thread is pretty damn simple.

Shemp, KC, you guys need to get to know each other. I have a feeling it would benefit you both.

:)

i think so :)
now ive figured out who KC is....

Sponsor programs are already doing this.. if we do end up totally corrupting the TGP traffic pool with loads of dirty TGP sites full of ads an no content would the surfers just put up with more ads to see the free porn? or stop surfing TGPs altogether? What do you think they will surf if that happens? P2P and newsgroups? Look for paysites to join in google adwords listings maybe...

With porn email traffic already much harder to get... would the biz have a terminal problem if the concentration of surfers around TGPs dispersed is another question worth thinking about it too. (lack of cheap/free sources of bulk traffic will make everyones costs skyrocket)

Sponsor programs are already doing this.. if we do end up totally corrupting the TGP traffic pool with loads of dirty TGP sites full of ads an no content would the surfers just put up with more ads to see the free porn? or stop surfing TGPs altogether? What do you think they will surf if that happens? P2P and newsgroups? Look for paysites to join in google adwords listings maybe...

With porn email traffic already much harder to get... would the biz have a terminal problem if the concentration of surfers around TGPs dispersed is another question worth thinking about it too. (lack of cheap/free sources of bulk traffic will make everyones costs skyrocket) [/b][/quote]
do you really think surfers will flee their current TGP havens and support sites where they will get "worked over".

the best thing sponsors can do is to try to work with these TGPs, geez its only been 7 years now. they should be going after strategic alliances, where their programs/galleries are highlited on the page, or as i have often arranged.... to take over a FPA page or a complete category page....

I'm loving reading Shemp's perspective in this thread. I really appreciate him taking the time to share his thoughts.

Thanks KK.

MasterP/Pornstar2Pac/Free-Poker-Ideaman doesn't care about counters or TGPs... he just wants to kick a little dirt in my face. Like you said before, "I've moved on". [/b][/quote]
hey now, I care about people like me not getting fucked by dialers and spyware. don't try to change the subject here. The Hun banned sextracker and paycounter for a reason...not for my amusement

No of course not... but do you think TGPs can live on bookmarks and trades alone?

If things go the "sponsor tampering" way you mentioned... I do think less people will go in search of any style gallery post to find porn because they will be jaded from hitting crappy sites that look like TGPs all the time.

But I wasnt making a point in my post.. I was more posign the "what if" questions; 1) Where would the traffic go? and 2) Would the industry adapt or die without TGPs?

ya, a very good discussion on an old topic.
you know before we had TGPs we had the sears catalog, lingerie section...
its was apparently very effective...

Yes, it will be, and I think paysites who start up TGPs will use the "if you can´t join them, then beat them" motivation, and with the amount of hosted galleries being produced by paysites, then I do not think its an impossible task.

I think there is a good amount of surfers, which by nature/situation are freeloaders, because of their age, income/matrial status, country etc. Sure they will end up seaching for free everything, and will never buy anything from the internet - let it adult memberships, dvds, pills etc.
However a good % of surfers are still able, and willing to pay for products - these are the people we want, they are consumers, so why build systems which cater to the lowest form of surfers - the freeloaders? Why not build system, which cater to the consumer instinct, variety of products, experiences etc.?

Freeloaders already have P2P systems like Kazaa etc. however consumers will not use hours on P2P to find their adult entertaiment, just to save $10-$30/month, they got jobs, families etc. to spend their time on, so if they only had the choice between P2P or paysite, then most of them would choose paysites...

Why make a TGP with focus on freeloaders, when TGPs make their money from consumers... is it better to have focus on this group? Sure on a counter a freeloader and a consumer count equal, however its the consumer who buys the subscription, the dvds, the pills, and this is the only thing which matters in the long run.

ya, a very good discussion on an old topic.
you know before we had TGPs we had the sears catalog, lingerie section...
its was apparently very effective... [/b][/quote]
Love that! Sears and Roebuck catalog analogy!!

I for one am loving this dialog without someone saying ...hey Shemp why dont you approve my gallery!

Yes, it will be, and I think paysites who start up TGPs will use the "if you can´t join them, then beat them" motivation, and with the amount of hosted galleries being produced by paysites, then I do not think its an impossible task.

I think there is a good amount of surfers, which by nature/situation are freeloaders, because of their age, income/matrial status, country etc. Sure they will end up seaching for free everything, and will never buy anything from the internet - let it adult memberships, dvds, pills etc.
However a good % of surfers are still able, and willing to pay for products - these are the people we want, they are consumers, so why build systems which cater to the lowest form of surfers - the freeloaders? Why not build system, which cater to the consumer instinct, variety of products, experiences etc.?

Freeloaders already have P2P systems like Kazaa etc. however consumers will not use hours on P2P to find their adult entertaiment, just to save $10-$30/month, they got jobs, families etc. to spend their time on, so if they only had the choice between P2P or paysite, then most of them would choose paysites...

Why make a TGP with focus on freeloaders, when TGPs make their money from consumers... is it better to have focus on this group? Sure on a counter a freeloader and a consumer count equal, however its the consumer who buys the subscription, the dvds, the pills, and this is the only thing which matters in the long run. [/b][/quote]
what site do you run? its a courtesy that i like to know who im talking with....