A team of researchers examining the herbal remedy St. John's Wort have found it to be just as effective in treating patients with moderate to severe depression as the common anti-depressant prescription drug Paxil.

The researchers compared the effectiveness of St John's Wort to paroxetine, brand name Paxil, in a study that included 301 participants.


Among those who took St. John's Wort, 50 percent reported their condition improved, compared with 35 percent taking Paxil.

The researchers also found participants taking Paxil suffered 269 adverse effects, compared with 172 among those taking St. John's Wort.

The researchers said they support St. John's Wort as an alternative to treat depression.

The study appears in the online version of the British Medical Journal.

not even close, an old wives tale..placebo effect. more than likely these people didnt need to be on an SSRI and could have controlled their "depression" through activity, and amusement.

Paxil is a fucking evil drug

The side effects can be verry bad and the withdrwal when coming off the drug are aweful

:grrr:

a little norepiniphren, dopamine and tryptophan will do the trick, if you are mildly depressed;)

serious depression is a physiological problem, and should be treaated as such

The thing in turkey that makes you sleepy?

i had problems with zoloft, myself. side effects were not fun.

Here is the study published in the BMJ , Grimm.

Where did you get your Doctorate?

;-))

The thing in turkey that makes you sleepy? [/b][/quote]
yep the very same.. releases seratonin and melatonin, creating an overwhelming feeling of calm. and you dont have to take a pill... just do 10 minutes of physical activity;)

dopamine is also triggered by activity, certain colors, smells, and sunlight.

so if you are mildly depressed, take a walk in the sun;)

Sex and food get me over any depression I might be feeling :)

its one of many studies nick..

all show that it may or may not help mild clinical depression... not arguing that, the argument in EVERY ONE of these studies was whether the results were because of a placebo effect.. im depressed, i take a pill to make it better, i feel better, i go take a walk or talk to a friend.... or chemical.. as there is not much behind St Johns Wort releasing any more neurotransmitters than taking a walk or talking to a friend;)

as for the doctorate... no phd but..school of hard knocks, that and School of Chemistry and Chemical Engineering:)

sex??

whats that

:cryin:

This though one says its effective in the treatment of:

" moderate to severe major depression"

And the conclusion is "at least as effective".

Sex would be under th exercise column.. thats a literal explosion of every neurotransmitter you have to control muscle movement, increase heart rate, blood pressure, blood moving fast through your organs, creating a rapid dispersement of these chemicals over neural pathways, nerve endings firing at will... and that is all before orgasm;)



and food... depending on the type releases all sorts fo lovely chemicals into your body from your brain and pancreas and gastro-intestinal system..Pancreozymin, Cholecystoknin, give you that happy saieted "full" feeling...not to mention the digestive triggers flood your synapses with seratonin, adrenalin, etc, as your body prepares for digestion

You would be amazed at the sheer number of webmasters who suffer from varying degrees of a] depression, B] anxiety disorder, and c] ADD.

There have been studies on St. John's Wort....and they vary in what they say about the efficacy of this herb.

Whether it is a placebo effect or there are some real properties depends on whose clinical trial you want to believe.

There have been some non scientific studies, based simply on what people report as to whether St. John's Wort actually lifts the spirits; but, in my experience, all of these herbs and drugs.....are merely bandaids....

Without going into lengthy explanations, it's really a matter of economy. It's much less expensive to prescribe a lifetime of prozac, paxil, zoloft and the newer anti depressants than it is to co pay talk therapy, which is what these people truly need.

All these drugs accomplish is a film over the problem...physically, they allow the psyche to fool itself into thinking its fine when it isn't....

i can produced tens to hundreds of studies on St Johns Wort going back decades, even centuries... The greeks used it as an analgesic, pre-anesthesia.. you want to go into an operating room and get cut with the assurance of st johns wort being in your system?;)

for mild depression, or insomnia (which often go hand in hand).. you can take st johns wort, melatonin, valerian tea or root, etc.. it might make you sleepy... so might tylenol PM..

and besides, what your body releases naturally is way stronger.

and beware of HERBAL REMEDIES... not in this case, but in others, they are not regulated, and are sometimes way stronger than what you can get from a doc... see ginseng, ephedra, etc vs prescription varients for the the same purpose. also lack of regulation in herbal markets are dangerous.. need to consult your phsyician before taking hrebal remedies, as side effects could be a decrease in pancreatic enzymes, kidney problems, and acute rise in your Liver Enzymes.

i believe there is a direct correlation between that and insomnia and a lack of a proper circadian rhythm at all... staying up all night, sleeping during the day... can definitely make one depressed.. not to mention the added stressors of running your own business, not getting out as much, lack of one on one physical and verbal contact with real live friends... we get bogged down 24/7 between making our businesses work and not sleeping.. next thing you know you could end up a mess;)

I couldn't agree more.. if you are on any sort of MAOI or SSRI, and you are not talking to a professional, you need to be... the root of the problems may be chemical, but the remedy could be a change in lifestyle, diet, excercise patterns, social patterns, etc.. none of this a depressed individual is going to realize on their own.. talking out the way you feel should go hand and hand with any prescription.

I very much agree with your statement, Grimm....our bodies were not meant to go against the natural order of things.....it's unfortunate, but fuck with the circadian rhythm and things happen which can be rather annoying....

Stress, positive or negative, is seen by the body as an attack...the immune system will respond....and everyone knows it's hard to fight a war on two fronts...so we are making our systems work double time....fighting the daily constant war on disease prevention...AND fighting the stressors we add...like not enough sleep, sleeping during the day and staying awake at night..not enough physical activity..worry.....etc...etc...etc..

There are herbal remedies that are downright dangerous....people just don't get it..they think herbals are benign; when, in reality, they can kill you just like the prescription meds can.

After all, digitalis comes from a plant...pretty but deadly if you take too much....

Aspirin..well, willow bark....and had anyone known of its powers, it would have been a prescription...

Those are just two examples.....

The damned drug companies and herbal companies with their advertisements....and, I also blame the people for believing the 'magic bullet' theory of take this. Be cured. Bah.

I think I have ADD and I think I've always had it. It's never been diagnosed and I really don't need to take anything for it, but I do realize in hindsight that I probably could have benefited from therapy/medication or at least someone being aware of it when I was in school.

if it aint broke dont fix it;)

if it isnt causing a problem in your life, like a lack of function at something important to you, then technically, it isnt a disorder.

Drug companies want to sell drugs.. research and developement costs are in the billions.. so they are very convincing that every "disorder" needs treating.

even mild bipoars can go without treatment, as long as the highs and the lows dont effect their lives or make them a threat to themselves and others.



Raven.. substituting herbal rememdies for prescriptions is very dangerous.. Digitalis is a perfect example... used properly, in the correct synthesized form, it strenghtens the heart muscle and is a treatment for weak valve syndrome or forms of cardiomyopathy. it can stop an arythmia or tacicardia on a dime... also it can be used to stop seizures, and can be far more beneficial than tegretol, depakote or other anticonvulsives.

but if taken without supervision, in an herbal form, it can stop your heart dead in its tracks. can cause your brain to seize and die...

Lithium is a natural occuring element.. it is also a salt.. taking anything that contains natural lithium in it can lead to electrolytic shock and death.


just because it is Natural, does not make it safe for use...

and all herbal and prescription remedies can effect your liver.. so i wouldnt take anything without getting an Liver Function Test first.

I agree which is why I have no desire to do anything about it now. This way I have something to blame my "ditzy-ness" on :)

But I think I would have done a lot better in school had I been diagnosed then. No one could understand why I was in the top percentile in aptitude tests, but did horrible in school. :P

I will on monday. :cryin:

I've told this story before, but for those who haven't heard it:

I've had migraines since I was 13 and one of the prophylactics for it is anti-depression medication. I've tried several and most had absolutely zero effect on me, including not helping the migraines. Understand that when you spend 3-5 days a month curled up in a ball because of the pain, you're willing to try ANYTHING.

However, they tried me once on Prozac. I started at 10mg I think (maybe 5) for 5 days - nothing, so he had me double it. Within 48 hours I went into a deep chemical depression. It was the most bizarre thing I have ever experienced. I literally felt like a heavy black cloud was over me. I couldn't convince myself to get out of bed, off the toilet, out of my chair, etc. THANKFULLY I knew what was going on, stopped taking the stuff and was fine in another 48 hours. But it really gave me an insight to what people with chemical depression go through. :( The doctor said this happens to a very, very small percentage of people who take it for non-depression reasons. It freaked me out so bad that when I fill out medical forms and they ask me what I'm allergic to, I put down Prozac. I don't want someone giving it to me for ANY reason.

I'm with you, Grimm.....lithium has such a narrow range for toxicity....just a tiny bit too much can be lethal...

We don't have foxglove plants around our house, because dogs can eat it and die.

What people don't know can kill them and often does. They listen to the hype and call their docs...the docs prescribe..and the people believe this magic bullshit of advertising.

The one that has me roaring these days is the nexium commercials, and yes I realise I'm moving away from natural herbal products...this acid reflux thing....Christ, give me a break.
Change your damned diet.....stop eating the foods that give you heartburn.

Tums is another one. It has ingredients in it that make you need it more.....the more often you use them, the more you need to take it. It's called sales.

We as a people do not want the hard road. We continue to eat the foods which hurt us...take pills which only mask symptoms for the short term...we live our lives as if our bodies and minds can adapt...and the body and mind will do anything to avoid pain....it adapts as best it can....and, then we are surprised when the body says 'you win' and explodes.

All these disorders....did it occur to anyone that they are just another marketing campaign?

We all had ADD as children. Go look at the list of symptoms for ADD.....it's a syndrome..a set of behaviours...there isn't a child in the world that didn't qualify....

Acid reflux? Give me a break.

Depression? Who hasn't been depressed?

Peaches....I don't know anything about your headaches, but let me ask you this? Were you given an EEG before they diagnosed you with migraines?

Oh yeah, I've had EEG's, CAT scans, thyroid tests - you name it, I've had it. And I've tried every kind of medication for them and even relaxation and biofeedback therapy. Imitrex is the only thing that works and I'm starting to build up a tolerance for it. Even the other triptans don't work.

Warning for guys - TMI to follow: It's associated with my menstrual cycle. Every female on my mother's side of the family has had them. When I was pregnant, I didn't have a single one. Made me want to stay pregnant forever :P My mother's stopped when she hit menopause, but they started up again about 10 years later, but not as bad as before. I can tell you within 12 hours of when I'm going to start my period by when I have my headaches. Weather fronts get me too. If I knew 100% if would help, I'd get a hysterectomy tomorrow.

I agree which is why I have no desire to do anything about it now. This way I have something to blame my "ditzy-ness" on :)

But I think I would have done a lot better in school had I been diagnosed then. No one could understand why I was in the top percentile in aptitude tests, but did horrible in school. :P [/b][/quote]
thats also a sign of high intelligence, low school grades are often due to disinterest or boredom;) maybe you were just too smart:)

then again, your school days were before they started putting ritalin in the water:)

peaches.. thats odd for such a low dose.. sounds like a chemical allergic reaction.. minimum dosage for prozac is usually 10-20mg, ramped up over a two week period... if you go off of it suddenly, not ramping down your dosage.. it is very dangerous.. severe depression can often result...

with any SSRI it takes a while for the levels to be such in your brain that a plateau is reached and a difference can be felt.. normally a two week period, depending on the dosage and the half-life of the chemiacl compound.. then the SSRI (selective seretonin uptake inhibitor) can work, keeping seretonin flooded to a degree in your synapses, creating a stable level, and hence a stable mood.. In bipolar or manic patients, prozac often elevates the highs too much and needs to be moderated with an anticonvulsant, such as depakote. but in a person who is suffering from just depression... the levels stay such that moods do not drastically elevate or depress drastically, or at least thats the idea.. everyones body chemistry is different, and sensetivityand tolerance are higher in some than others. so reactions should be monitored by a psychiatrist or primary care physician.

Maybe you were misdiagnosed, or have an allergy to one of the mixing reagents, or such a low tolerance that it upset the balance too much

awww... im telling you, quick hitter to vegas, no moping:)


heres a crossover... my side effect for zoloft was exactly what you were looking for with your little blue pill;)

Oh yeah, I've had EEG's, CAT scans, thyroid tests - you name it, I've had it. And I've tried every kind of medication for them and even relaxation and biofeedback therapy. Imitrex is the only thing that works and I'm starting to build up a tolerance for it. Even the other triptans don't work.

Warning for guys - TMI to follow: It's associated with my menstrual cycle. Every female on my mother's side of the family has had them. When I was pregnant, I didn't have a single one. Made me want to stay pregnant forever :P My mother's stopped when she hit menopause, but they started up again about 10 years later, but not as bad as before. I can tell you within 12 hours of when I'm going to start my period by when I have my headaches. Weather fronts get me too. If I knew 100% if would help, I'd get a hysterectomy tomorrow. [/b][/quote]
one of many reasons i am glad i dont get a period.


hormonal levels are so shot during a menstrual cycle that anything could be the cause of it. Migraines suck. ive never had them, but i have friends that do. ouch.:(

peaches... do you ever have epileptic episodes or night terrors, or did you when you were younger? im sure you've asked but somebody in your condition could have mild epilepsy with some sort of hormonal trigger. just a thought.

the acid reflux stuff is for real.. there is a valve that controls backflow from your upper GI system into your esophagus.. i have a good friend who had this before all those prescription, now OTC medicines.. but people think heartburn is acid reflux all the time. sure, a prilosec will treat the symptoms of heartburn, but because it works doesnt mean your esophogeal valve is weak.

as for dogs.. cocoa beans are lethal, the theobromine in them can killl a dog. dont have cocoa beans? probably have a hershey bar laying around though:(

the acid reflux stuff is for real.. there is a valve that controls backflow from your upper GI system into your esophagus.. i have a good friend who had this before all those prescription, now OTC medicines.. but people think heartburn is acid reflux all the time. sure, a prilosec will treat the symptoms of heartburn, but because it works doesnt mean your esophogeal valve is weak.

as for dogs.. cocoa beans are lethal, the theobromine in them can killl a dog. dont have cocoa beans? probably have a hershey bar laying around though:(

doh double post.. board locked up on me.. must be the St Johns wart people or the stonemasons:)

Never. But they did try me on some anti-seizure medications for migraines also. I've taken three different ones I think. Nothing did anything at all except for one that made my night vision almost non-existent because I would see "light trails" and it made my extremities feel like they were asleep with the painful prickliness ALL the time.

Inderal did OK for years. I took it daily and had fewer headaches with less severity. I stopped taking it a few years ago because it was making me tired all the time. When I went back to take it again after a year or so because of how bad the headaches were, it didn't work anymore. I might try it again though. My body chemistry is just whacked I think!

Whenever something new comes out, I research it and call the Dr. :)

ouch.. like you have to take on one pain or problem to alleviate another.

Yeah. I guess after 30 years I'm just used to dealing with it. The Imitrex is really the elixir of the gods for me though :) Just wish I wasn't getting a tolerance for it.

I have mild migraines(diagnosed by a doctor) when Im extremely tired and/or stresed over a period of a few days.... and oinions seem to be a trigger also.

Happens maybe twice a year...

be nice to have something to counter-balance with it.

I'm too busy wondering about who I'm going to beat the shit out of to be depressed...

oops, time for another zoloft
;-))