In boxing the fight stopper is the shot that lands flush with the side of the jaw, torquing the head to the side and throwing it back simultaneously.

But the the bitch punch, the punch that signals total domination... When one of the fighters is already on his way to the floor, or perhaps attempting to duck a blow, and the other fires a downward shot to the back of his skull.

Christopher Hitchens just bitch punched Michael Moore.

Buff, talk about typical debate club bullshit.

if someone is against the specific actions taken by bush, then they have to be "for the bad guy". Not liking Bush's personal war on Saddam doesn't mean we were all going to go over and give him a hug and tell him how nice of a dictator he is.

It's stupid.

When you want to talk about re-writing history, let's talk about Chenney still talking about how Saddam and BinLadin were best buddies and they were both working together to get the US. Let's talk about how the Bush administration has managed to make the US public believe that the war in Iraq is as a result of the 9/11 attacks, that Saddam is somehow personally responsible. Let's talk about how the whole WMD thing just sort of disappeared into the wind... and how suddenly that wasn't the justification for war.

No movie in the world can be as bad as the reality that is Bushworld.

Alex

Buff,
there is not enough "256 shades of grey" in either Moore or his opponents.

Alkex,
your zest for "Paint me anti-Bush" is lacking those "256 shades of grey": either.

One will NEVER become an analytical mind using only black and white colors.

Looking at two of you squabling gives me more appreciation for my own brain.

Did You see the movie or read the rest of what Hitchens wrote? Obviously not. See, you're stupid, because that's exactly what Moore does, you idiot!

Face it, Alex, many of the people who are on YOUR side DO think Hussein is the good guy and Bush is the bad guy.

you are BOTH idiots, and remain so,
'til you understand ONE day that there are no good guys, there are no bad guys,
there are ONLY
good guys who do the bad deeds
and
bad guys who do the good deeds.

The world in humanity is NOT black and white,
regardless of your abilities ONLY use those 2 colors.

Buff, "my side?" heh? I don't have people on my side. Unlike y'all down there, we are actually allowed to have more than 2 choices. It ain't Donkey or Elephant... we have a whole zoo to work from.

Serge, my point exactly - there are way more than two colors. The world according to Bush is only one of those colors, yet there are many on this board that think the man should be made a saint, he can do no wrong, and is always correct. There is so much grey that cannot even be covered here.

Just can't leave Buff to post his one sided hatchet jobs without putting something back. What is funnier is that Buff actually buys into this stuff.

Buff: Hint, you sound exactly like the "anti-Meni". How special!

Alex



Last edited by RawAlex at Jun 22 2004, 09:22 AM

Are you saying that the US intelligence community didn't really believe that Iraq had WMD's? Are you saying that 9-11 didn't legitimately increase the concern within the United States defense establishment that WMDs in the hands of state actors such as Saddam were a clear and present danger to the United States? On what do you base that?

What were Bush's reasons for going to war? Not just "WMDs". Not just "9-11". Bush didn't concoct WMD intelligence. It was there before he even took office. The belief was prevalent among many in the highest echelons of the US intelligence services that Saddam had WMDs going well back into the 1990s.

These are the reasons given in the ultimatum to Saddam in the order that they appear.

1. Bad faith and violation of 12 years of UN resolutions
2. WMD intelligence
3. history of Saddam's actions in the Middle East
4. harboring and supporting terrorists including Al Qaeda
5. Danger that Iraq could continue to support terrorists elevating to WMDs.

Why do you not believe that he and many others didn't honestly believed these things? The evidence for an al Qaeda/Iraq connection may be weak but it is there. It certainly leads some people to believe there is one (not me). Why not Tenet? Why not Bush? Why not Clinton or Kerry?

What indication, if any, did Bush give before 9-11 that he was anything but an isolationist? Prior to 9-11, Bush was accused of being isolationist and creating a "Fortress America". What changed him?



Last edited by Colin at Jun 22 2004, 09:30 AM

I'd like to read your essay on the great guy Lenin was.

I'd like to read your essay on the great guy Lenin was.[/b][/quote]
He made the trains run on time!!

Wait, He could not even do that!

:D

I'd like to read your essay on the great guy Lenin was.[/b][/quote]
huh? are you depressed or just unstable today?

What's any of that got to do with the points the guy made about Moore's film?

What i find most amusing about Moore is that there really are quite valid and sensible arguements about the war in iraq on both sides of the debate. So valid and sensible in fact, that Moore shouldn't need to distort the truth and completely ommit certain facts to make his point.

But he does, and thus, entirely lacks credibility.

He made the trains run on time!!

Wait, He could not even do that!

:D[/b][/quote]
I don't think either of you EVER read Lenin or know what he was all about.....

you can argue with the same success the works of Hammurabi, Chai kai Shek or Navuhadonossor.

I don't think either of you EVER read Lenin or know what he was all about.....

you can argue with the same success the works of Hammurabi, Chai kai Shek or Navuhadonossor.[/b][/quote]
I know the Cossacks are huge fans of Lenin, the "good guy who does bad things" as you put it. He only murdered about 80% of them (which came out to about 300,000, right?) in Ukraine and southern Russia. De-Cossackization, I believe it was called.

That's exactly what I think. Though right now I lean a little to the side of "that was a bad idea" it remains to be seen. If consensual government can take root in the Middle East there may be new hope that a currently lost civilization will join the ranks of the modern.

The US will be searching for a policy which reduces and maybe even ends international terrorism. There will be successes. There will be setbacks. There will be catastrophes. There will be moments of lost faith and other moments of great resolution. The very existence of US administrations will be bet on these policies - so great is the change which has effected our perception of the world. These policies will - as was true in the Cold War - mutate and bend according to what is learned.

Iraq is one of the greatest experiments in the history of politics. I hope western civilization wins.

I know the Cossacks are huge fans of Lenin, the "good guy who does bad things" as you put it. He only murdered about 80% of them (which came out to about 300,000, right?) in Ukraine and southern Russia. De-Cossackization, I believe it was called.[/b][/quote]
1) it was done by Stalin, not Lenin

2) Tsar, who was replaced by Lenin was NOT better alternative to Russia,
have you ever heard of "pogroms"? Stolypin reforms, displacing millions of peasants?

I bet you have no clue what I am talking about....ignorance is bliss.

can YOU define what would be WIN?

definition, please.

The last political debate in my family was WHO won the second world war,
Russians or German and Japanese?

I argued with my father against my wife that ultimatelly Germans and Japanese WON and USSR lost....

shades of grey...

shit thats what I do ! ;-)))))

In order to understand the reasons for Bush's actions we would need to know all the information available.

We will never know all the information.

1) it was done by Stalin, not Lenin

2) Tsar, who was replaced by Lenin was NOT better alternative to Russia,
have you ever heard of "pogroms"? Stolypin reforms, displacing millions of peasants?

I bet you have no clue what I am talking about....ignorance is bliss.[/b][/quote]
The murdering of the cossacks was done by Lenin.

The de-Kulakization program was in the 1930s. Stalin modeled this campaign on Lenin's De-Cossackization program. Here Stalin introduced the innovation of the concentration camp, where prisoners were worked or starved to death. In the three year period of 1930 to 1932, Stalin (with the assistance of his Ukranian governor, Nikita Sergeievich Kruschev) oversaw the liquidation of 6 million people in Russia and Ukraine, through a combination of mass starvation, forced migration, and concentration camps where the goal was to, literally, work the prisoners to death.

I have the Black Book of Communism and Death by Government, two wonderful books describing in detail all of the great works by good men who did bad things.

can YOU define what would be WIN?

definition, please.

The last political debate in my family was WHO won the second world war,
Russians or German and Japanese?

I argued with my father against my wife that ultimatelly Germans and Japanese WON and USSR lost....[/b][/quote]
If Iraq becomes as stable of a democracy as Turkey, if a consensual government smack in the middle of the Middle East inspires the growing democracy movements in the Middle East, if the followers of Qutb and their ilk identify with political systems which we currently call "Western" we may win our security. These are tall orders. No one should kid themselves. I think the alternative policies to date haven't shown much in the way of success.

The murdering of the cossacks was done by Lenin.

The de-Kulakization program was in the 1930s. Stalin modeled this campaign on Lenin's De-Cossackization program. Here Stalin introduced the innovation of the concentration camp, where prisoners were worked or starved to death. In the three year period of 1930 to 1932, Stalin (with the assistance of his Ukranian governor, Nikita Sergeievich Kruschev) oversaw the liquidation of 6 million people in Russia and Ukraine, through a combination of mass starvation, forced migration, and concentration camps where the goal was to, literally, work the prisoners to death.

I have the Black Book of Communism and Death by Government, two wonderful books describing in detail all of the great works by good men who did bad things.[/b][/quote]
Nice googling work , buff!!!!!!

So true. Even today, for example, people debate why Truman decided to drop the bomb.

I know that I myself usually have multiple reasons for doing something and not just one - at least in spirit a mental checklist of sorts. I assume other people do the same. It would only make sense that there were pro and con factors in addition to various influences on such a momentous decision.

Memory has gone external. I used to feel smarter. Before the awesome power of google, I feel like an idiot. Anyone else feel this way?

Memory has gone external. I used to feel smarter. Before the awesome power of google, I feel like an idiot. Anyone else feel this way?[/b][/quote]
My point was plagarism is a given , but at least have the common courtesy to try and disguise it!!!

;-)))))

I never argued your ability to read,
your ability to comprehend what you read is at question.

How do you like Stalin's assesment made by anti communist Winston Churchill?

learn from him the shades of grey, not from me.

My point was plagarism is a given , but at least have the common courtesy to try and disguise it!!!

;-)))))[/b][/quote]
My point was I feel like an idiot.

So true. Even today, for example, people debate why Truman decided to drop the bomb.

I know that I myself usually have multiple reasons for doing something and not just one - at least in spirit a mental checklist of sorts. I assume other people do the same. It would only make sense that there were pro and con factors in addition to various influences on such a momentous decision.[/b][/quote]
you give to much credit to most of the people,
the majority lives in black and white world and quite comfortable with it,
shades of grey require thinking and analysis,
black and white does not,
and I see this on this board every god damn day

I have not seen Michael Moore's latest film.

I have never seen a Michael Moore film.

I might see a Michael Moore film if I'm really bored and it's on television.

The thing I find amusing about this whole "debate" is that some of the same people who condemn Moore for his lies and distortions have no objection to or completely deny that Bush and his minions made lots of lies and distortions to get us into the war (and vice versa).

Pull the string, the dolly talks ... :yowsa:

My point was plagarism is a given , but at least have the common courtesy to try and disguise it!!!

;-)))))[/b][/quote]
puuhleeze,
2 references in Google,
non of the authors is Russian historian,
2 100% anti communists
http://www.google.com/search?q=Lenin's...ization+program
which makes me HIGHLY suspicious of the accuracy of this information.....unless you, buff, beleive EVERYTHING you read on the internet.

I say the dis-information not confirmed by ANYBODY besides those 2 authors with anti-communist agenda, is BULLSHIT and falsification of history

Exactly!!!

It gives comfort. The black and white world is a wonderful place to watch the world from , everything is crystal clear , and simple.

Its a wonderful reassuring place.

But G-d help you when you take off the blinkers and realise the shading , you can never go back to seeing only in black and white , you have gained the blessed knowledge of true human nature , and the curse that comes along with that knowledge.

but I digress...

;-))


hmmmm hope this isn't the absinthe kicking in ;-))

Would you please stop giving YOUR opinions!!!!

It is better to regurgitate the opinions of others that have a hook that you find comfortable living with.

jeeez us!

;-)))

if i told you he was your brother
you'd reminisce then you would go about your day
if said you oughta give him some of your water
you'd shake your canteen and walk away

and the perception taht divides you from him, is a lie
for some reason you never asked why
this is not a black white world
you can't afford to believe in your side

this is not a black and white world
to be alive i say the colors must swirl
and i believe that maybe today
we will all get to appreciate
the beauty of grey

if i told you she was your mother
would you analyze the situation and be gone?
if i said you oughta give her some of your water
your eyes would light up like the dawn

and the perception that divides you from her, is a lie
for some reason we never asked why
this is not a black white world
you can't afford to believe in your side

this is not a black and white world
to be alive i say the colors must swirl
and i believe that maybe today
we will all get to appreciate

the beauty of grey
the beauty of grey
the beauty of grey
the beauty of grey

look into your eyes
no daylight
new day now

this is not a black and white world
to be alive i say the colors must swirl
and i believe that maybe today
we will appreciate the beauty of grey

this is not a black and white world
to be alive i say the colors must swirl
and i believe that maybe today
we will all get appreciate
yes we will all get to appreciate

the beauty of grey
(repeat 8x)

The majority of people are idiots too.

Analysis is exactly what the Department of Defense and National Security Council do. Major policy decisions seldom come completely out of the blue and US security considerations are debated within the National Security Council.

Colin, major policy decisions can be swayed by such things as:

- your father being used as a doormat (literally) in Iraq
- your family position in the oil industry
- the position of your key advisors and close staff in the energy business
- your desire to be a "tough president"
- your desire to make the world think like you.

I sort of like the US way: We will make you free if you like it or not.

The ultimate decision to invade or not invade IRAQ was made by one man, and there were many different things that could be read into his choice.

As for 9/11- even the commission has concluded that there are no provable links between Saddam and BinLadin, that Saddam had refused AlQaida training facilities in his country, and that before the war, there was no indications of terrorists using Iraq as a home base. That was Afghanistan, remember that country?

Linking 9/11 to Saddam is stroke of genius that allows them to write off every dead soldier as a "vicitm of the war on terror".

It is impressive.

The "little lies" of a film maker are nothing compared to the "little lies" of the current US administration, IMHO.

Alex

"Even the genius asks questions"
Me Against the world / 2Pac

"I think and think for months and years. Ninety-nine times, the conclusion is false. The hundredth time I am right"
Albert Einstein

"Yes, I googled to find those quotes, but I knew where to look!"
Rolo at Oprano

:)

Probably true.
And it also possibly true that no one on this board (with the exception of springedude) could name that one man.

hmmm,

Sergei,
These posts are probably the closest to the way I think you've ever made...

were you drunk or sober as you made these posts? I want to know in which states we are the most alike ;)



(cue sergei's reponse on how we are in no way alike)



Last edited by DrGuile at Jun 22 2004, 01:36 PM

DrGuille,
join GFYers
;_))

http://www.FuckYouLensman.com/showthread.p...threadid=316188

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