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http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/b...breaking_8.html
U.S. stopped Israeli raid to seize Arafat SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM Monday, September 15, 2003 The United States has prevented Israel's military from capturing the headquarters of Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat. U.S. government sources said the Bush administration sent a harsh message to Israel to suspend plans to capture Arafat's headquarters in Ramallah over the weekend. The sources said the had military planned to raid the so-called Muqata'a on late Friday and capture Arafat. .................................................. The U.S. sources said the Bush administration was alarmed by the Israeli entry into Ramallah on Thursday. An Israeli military force captured a PA ministry about 300 meters from Arafat's headquarters and established a command post for the capture of the Muqata'a. .................................................. .. Powell and Rice sent Israel a message, the sources said, that the United States regards any move to exile Arafat as harmful to Washington's interests in the Middle East, including the roadmap for a Palestinian state. At the same time, U.S. ambassador to Israel Daniel Kurtzer met Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and warned of an international backlash to Arafat's exile. |
Roadmap :) heh. Thats funny :agrin:
anyway, I highly doubt that Israel will notify the US about the exact time a raid on Arafat headquarters would take place. on another note... Its funny to see how the US tries to kill Saddam and Bin-Laden and protects Arafat. Do you also find it "funny"? :unsure: |
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while I do not necessarilly agree with the rational, The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is viewed by Washington as a "civil war"... Their definition of terrorism requires the terrorists to strike outside of their particular country... So, therefore, by their rationale, Arafat is not a terrorist because the PLO does not operate outside the boundaries of Israel-Palestine.... Although they did finally back off and declare Hamas to be terrorist... My feelings on the Israeli-Palestinian issue are somewhat mixed. As I have stated before, I respect the hell out of Israel for what they have accomplished. At the same time though, I can sympathize with the Palestinians to a certain extent (I often compare them to the plight of Native Americans here)... As far as the tactics used, the car bombings etc, again, while I do not agree ever with killing civilians or with terrorist type actions, I understand that in many of their minds they are using the available materials to get as much damage done as they can. They can not fight against tanks and machine guns with rocks and sticks. It is a sad situation and when finally their is a solution found, it will take many generations before all the hatred has dissipated. |
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Arafat is a terrorist and should have been killed decades ago.
He should be killed immediately! |
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Sorry for numbering your text.. its easier to address that way. 1. Who told you that???? Their definition of terrorism is not different than the Israeli one at all. Its only uncomfortable for them that Israel has its own agenda first - namly: Israel. The US government likes Israel to be quiet on the expense of Israeli lives, because it helps (so they think) US interests. Strategically I disagree and think the US is weakening itself by not being honest and calling a duck a duck. US should stick to its values and not be ambivalent. 2. Again - who told you that? PLO is a terrorist organization and so is almost every other palestinian organization. The fact that PLO is the "political" front of the terror organization it really is (Called Fatah and Al-Aqsa brigades) it mearly a cover up. Also - when a US citizen tried to blow up an airplane with a shoe - they called him what? 3. Indeed. And so did the European union - finally 4. We are not talking about the palestinians. We are talking about Arafat. Do you claim Arafat is the average palestinian? He has more money than all the people who post here altogether (including all the other message boards out there). He lives a happy rich life in a lurious house. He flies (used to) all around in his fancy helicopter and jet while his people desperately search for work and food. He rather continue the conflict than have piece and finally some comfort - when the palestinians you aer referring to would sign a peace treaty decades ago. 5. What?? I wouldn't address that statement really beside saying this.. You do realize you justify the 9/11 that way. don't you? 6. Right and wrong. Well.. Right because it is sad. But wrong because - it depends what you call the solution. But when the future generation is fed hatred, the solution is nowhere close. Generations will only get you further from the end. Last edited by XXXManager at Sep 16 2003, 12:51 AM |
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No you wouldn't Whenever there is a "civil war incident" in Israel by Fatah or Al-Aqsa brigades (namly PLO) the state department says he regrets that innocent people were killed by terrorists. I guess the state department is proof enough as to the "official" rationale |
damn, I am looking up various shit at the state department and you guys hit me with 5 or 6 more.....lolol...
anyway... I am going to eat dinner and then I will address more stuff.. But the OFFICIAL definition of terrorism prior to 9/11 was: from: http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2419.htm Patterns of Global terrorism - 2000 No one definition of terrorism has gained universal acceptance. For the purposes of this report, however, we have chosen the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the United States Code, Section 2656f(d). That statute contains the following definitions: The term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant/*/ targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience. The term "international terrorism" means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than one country. The term "terrorist group" means any group practicing, or that has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism. The US Government has employed this definition of terrorism for statistical and analytical purposes since 1983. ************************************************** ***** so perhaps I spoke too loosely when I stated: "Their definition of terrorism requires the terrorists to strike outside of their particular country... So, therefore, by their rationale, Arafat is not a terrorist because the PLO does not operate outside the boundaries of Israel-Palestine.... " and should have stated that the PLO and Arafat as their leader are not a Terrorist Group by their definition..... Because using the definition prior to 9/11 a terrorist group had to practice international terrorism. I am being called to dinner and if you ever want to see a terrorist, watch my Jen when dinner is ready and I don't come... I will bring in the current definition at that point.... But waiting for fucking pdfs to load is a pain in the ass and most of this stuff is located in pdfs.... Last edited by sarettah at Sep 15 2003, 09:00 PM |
5. What?? I wouldn't address that statement really beside saying this..
You do realize you justify the 9/11 that way. don't you? No, I do not justify anything with my statement. My statement stands as is. I did not agree or condone the actions. Understanding something does not condone the action or make a sympathetic ear. As far as the 9/11 situation that is TOTALLY different. The palestinians have a fair claim to the territories in dispute. They are fighting a war within their own country. The 9/11 attackers attacked a sovereign nation outside of their borders. Saying it is the same thing is akin to the U.S. not having the right to the revolutionary war and the southern states not having the right to fight the civil war. What goes on within a countries borders, by it's citizens is largely an internal matter. My statement was: "5. As far as the tactics used, the car bombings etc, again, while I do not agree ever with killing civilians or with terrorist type actions, I understand that in many of their minds they are using the available materials to get as much damage done as they can. They can not fight against tanks and machine guns with rocks and sticks." |
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As you yourself quoted - The term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant/*/ targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience. So it has nothing to do with international. Second - and I dont fully know what to make of this sentence which means nothing to me gramatically "The term "terrorist group" means any group practicing, or that has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism. " Even if - this sentence it to be considered to mean anything - The PLO can claim that they are not a group. They are for sure terrorists - because by the first definition quoted they do engage in terrorism. The last quote claims (I say again - it don't really say anything clear) that unless you are engaged in internaitional terrorism - you may be a group of terrorists but you are are not a "terrorist group".. dumb definition if you ask me. Are you sure you quoted it right? Anyway - even with this loose definition, the palestinian authority is not part of Israel. Even according to Israeli law. Also - by that definition, even if the PLO bombed a resurant in new york, they would not be a terrorist group because they can claim they don't have what is defined as a "country"? I say - stay away from semantically confusing quotes. By all means and purposes - PLO and every other group today in the palestinian authority you might have heard, is - officially and otherwise - considered by the US as a terroristic group (or if you want - a bunch of terrorists... to avoid the term group ;)) |
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Since they are not by the state departments own definition a "terrorist group" they do not show up on the State Departments list of Terrorist Organizations... That IS the rationale used from 1983 through 9/11/2001... Whether you want to believe it or not... It is fact and there is plenty of supporting documentation..... As far as the PLO and ALL palestinian organizations being "terrorist" groups, the same rationale is used by the palestinians and other groups to lavbel Israel as a terrorist nation.... "premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant/*/ targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience. " Would accurately define sending tanks into refugee camps.... Now...Let me make one thing totally, perfectly clear..... I am not the enemy here... I support Israel and most of it's actions... BUT I am a realist....In order to solve any problem, you must be able to understand both sides of the issue. I understand the Israeli side of the equation, I also understand the Palestinian side of the equation.... There are some that are right on both sides and there are some that are wrong... To believe it is a one way street, that only one side is right in any way in this whole thing is to guarantee that the whole thing never gets settled.... Whether we like it or not, Arafat was elected to represent the Palestinian Authority... The PA is designated to represent the Palestinian people in their negotiations with Israel.... If Arafat is taken out by anyone except himself or the Palestinian people you will see violence in Israel and the Middle East like never before.... edited in: here are the groups identified as terrorist in the 2000 report http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2450.htm Last edited by sarettah at Sep 15 2003, 09:21 PM |
Power politics. The US needs to appease it's Arab strategic "partners". Not much more to it than that.
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These are the new defintions of terrorism from the state department immediately after 9/11/2001.
http://usembassy.state.gov/lahore/wwwhircaterror.html The debate over the definition of Terrorism is as old as the term itself. There are several elements that run through the many definitions of terrorism. Under United States law terrorism is "the use of force or violence against persons or property in violation of the criminal laws for purposes of intimidation, coercion or ransom." The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) categorizes terrorism in the United States as one of two types--domestic terrorism or international terrorism. Domestic terrorism involves groups or individuals whose terrorist activities are directed at elements of American government or population without foreign direction, while international terrorism involves groups or individuals whose terrorist activities are foreign-based and/or directed by countries or groups outside the United States or whose activities transcend national boundaries. Long a danger to life and property on a local scale, only lately has terrorism been recognized as a strategic threat to the internal stability--and even survival--of countries. Terrorism is now seen as a threat to the security of the whole international community, particularly as terrorists have increasingly shifted from "conventional" to "unconventional" terrorism. Over the past decade unconventional terrorism has come to be regarded the most threatening of all terrorist tactics. This type of terrorism can be categories as follows: ......................................... |
The global report on terrorism for 2001 uses the same definitions as the 2000 report
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2001/.../html/10220.htm Colin, I saw you slip that post in there...lol.... |
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6. I believe that the ultimate solution is going to have to be two seperate sovereign nations.... edited in: If I missed anything, let me know.... Last edited by sarettah at Sep 15 2003, 09:30 PM |
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Correct!! You get a dancing Veggie! :cdance: |
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:yowsa: |
I explained to you why you are wrong, according to your own quotes. That has nothing to do with what I believe or not believe.
As to the PLO - PLO was not formed in Israel. Therefore it is international and qualifies to be "international" and therefore - by your quote - a group. If it is not in some list of someone - and I wish if possible to see which list you refer to - it is because they have some hidden (or otherwise) agenda. Secondly - Several palestinian terrorist organizations located in Israel - including Hizballah, Hamas, Izadin el kasam and others - are in the "list" of the US as terrorist organizations even before the 9/11. That is also a fact. Check out the list at the link you yourself brought: http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2450.htm So the argument you have brought forward seems strange and unclear to me and basically invalid. As to the definition you bring forward that may call "Israel" (I guess you mean the Israeli army (or IDF)) terrorist organization... When I was 15 years old, I was with a group of friends who littered the classroom floor with stuff before a class and caused the class to start late... Our teacher called us terrorists. Since then I learned not to take the words of a madman too seriously. If someone can not see the difference between IDF and a terrorist organization, I for one would not bother explaining to them the difference unless I knew them and cared about them personally. What some palestinians call or categorize IDF is not my concern. "premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant/*/ targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience. " That would qualify also the actions of the UN in the balkans, the actions of the US in.. well... everywhere, the actions of Russia in... well... everywhere on their side of the globe, china etc... Hell :) even a rock concert - as terror according to this definition ;) I see this as a loose and unclear definition of the term terrorism but it will do for now... As to IDF specifically 1. it is foremost tactically driven rather than politically driven. 2. etrated against combatant rather than noncombatant As to you specifically, I do not know what your views are, so I do not refer to you specifically but only what you say. I am quite sure you are not the enemy though. you claim one needs to understand both sides.. and that you do. I do not want to sound well.. harsh.. but what makes you think you understand the sides? I dont things the sides understand themselves... Claiming that someone understand things and he has therefore the key to solve problems :) well... that is a bit far fetched.. "Whether we like it or not, Arafat was elected to represent the Palestinian Authority... The PA is designated to represent the Palestinian people in their negotiations with Israel.... If Arafat is taken out by anyone except himself or the Palestinian people you will see violence in Israel and the Middle East like never before...." Elected? What made him elected? Do you know who was the other candidates in the PA elections? Do you know it was only one person? Do you know no one really knew that person? Do you call that elections? Like Saddam is elected in Iraq? LOL. they both won remarkably their "democratic" elections. 90-99% of the votes. Do you also know when were the elections? about what? 10 years ago? oh.. more? right.. The PA is representing the Palestinian people? That is a joke. and you would understand the joke if you knew enough about both the Palestinians and their "leadership" (imho). "If Arafat is taken out by anyone except himself or the Palestinian people you will see violence in Israel and the Middle East like never before...." yeye - We have heard threatening prophecies like that before. Btw - where was that logic before taking out the leader of Iraq? and the leadership of Afghanistan? Do you think that Arabs in the middle east will suddenly stop loving Israel as they do now? When you have people dying every day you stop caring so much about cynical politics and start thinking about why a "leader" who supports terrorism and stopped representing his own people for so long still being feathered by counties like the US and EU and start thinking why such an obstacle for a possible peace arrangement is not removed for the benefit of all sides. As for the roaring "violence in the middle east".. I guess you consider your own country's action in the Middle East love making? Remember - I am not the enemy here either. I only call things as I see them as well. Facts are (my facts of course - others may disagree) - Most Palestinian groups are terrorist. Even if they have "nice" political fronts. Chances are - if you negotiate a peace treaty with a terrorist or terrorist organization you will fail. If you are in a position where you face a terrorist - shortest route around it is not to wait for him to remove himself (as you saw in Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea, Cuba, ....) but to remove him. Claiming that your enemy calls you a terrorist and therefore your claim that he is a terrorist is invalid - requires you to be very unconfident person for it to stick. ("you" doesn't mean anyone specific) When you have cancer, you don't have to worry about getting cancer (but about curing it). Same for violence. (now add "middle east violence to that fact). Poor people don't make their leader legitimate. The whole issue if "Palestinians are miserable" and therefore Arafat is a legitimate person is based on ill logic. |
truce......
XXX...I don't know where you are.... I assume Israel ?? (or very close) If so, then you are inside...looking out.... I am outside looking in... 2 very different viewing points.... As I said... I very much support the right of Israel to exist.... I will leave it at that because I am tired of arguing with someone that I don't think I really disagree with very much..... I will have to answer this though.... "Claiming that someone understand things and he has therefore the key to solve problems well... that is a bit far fetched.." I do not claim to have the answer... I just know that to settle any dispute you have to understand the positions that both sides are coming from... That is the starting point. If you never get to the starting point, you never get to the ending point... and yes, Arafat has created the problem of never wanting to get to the ending point.... |
Where did the IDF come from again?
The remnants of the Haganah. Which were what? Jewish terrorists that fought the British and Palestinian population. Funny how a nation founded on terrorism cries so much about terrorism. |
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sarettah: I don't know if you know about [Labret] but a word of advice... The best way to deal with his arguments is ignore them :)
The inside/outside issues is irrelevant. It like I will tell you that you can't really see the issue with Iraq or Afghanistan because you are in the US. I honestly don't understand where people came up with this argument that people from "within" can not view things for real. As to your observation.. Every kid in the area knows exactly where the Israelis and where the Palestinians "come from". There is no need to be an outside "observer" from a far away country who's average interest in the subject and the region as whole can be summed to 20 minutes a week. (true though that some individuals pay much ,more attention than an occasional article in the newspaper or a show on TV). Last note: There is no need for a truce. We are not at a battle and not even a fight. We are just having a friendly conversation and exchange of views. It is a healthy thing and much appriciated (at least on my part). |
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Why not just answer the question? |
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The Haganah -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The underground military organization of the yishuv in Eretz Yisrael from 1920 to 1948. The Arab riots in 1920 and 1921 (q.v., see also Tel Hai) strengthened the view that it was impossible to depend upon the British authorities and that the yishuv needed to create an independent defense force completely free of foreign authority. In June 1920, the Haganah was founded. During the first nine years of its existence, the Haganah was a loose organization of local defense groups in the large towns and in several of the settlements. The Arab riots in 1929 (q.v.) brought about a complete change in the Haganah's status. It became a large organization encompassing nearly all the youth and adults in the settlements, as well as several thousand members from each of the cities. It initiated a comprehensive training program for its members, ran officers' training courses; Established central arms depots into which a continuous stream of light arms flowed from Europe. Simultaneously, the basis was laid for the underground production of arms. During1936-1939, the years of the Arab Revolt, were the years in which the Haganah matured and developed from a militia into a military body. Although the British administration did not officially recognize the organization, the British Security Forces cooperated with it by establishing civilian militia (see Jewish Settlement Police—J.S.P., and also, Jewish Auxiliary Police—ghafirs). In the summer of 1938 Sepcial Night Squads—S.N.S. were extablished, under the command of Captain Orde Wingate (see also Plugot Sadeh, Yitzhak Sadeh). During the years of the riots, the Haganah protected the establishment of over 50 new settlements in new area of the country (see Homa Umigdal—Stockade and Watchtower Settlements). As a result of the British government anti-Zionist policy, expressed in the White Paper of 1939, the Haganah supported illegal immigration and organized demonstrations against the British anti-Zionist policy. With the outbreak of World War II, the Haganah was faced with new problems. It headed a movement of volunteers, from which Jewish units were formed for service in the British army (see Jewish Brigade Group). It also cooperated with British intelligence units and sent its personnel out on various commando missions in the Middle East. Another example of this cooperation was the dropping of 32 Jewish parachutists in 1943-44 behind enemy lines in the Balkans, Hungary and Slovakia. Europe (see also Hannah Szenesh, Enzo Sereni, Havivah Reik). At the same time, the Haganah further strengthened its independent basis during the war. A systematic program of training was instituted for the youth of the country. In 1941, the Haganah's first mobilized regiment, the Palmach came into being. At the end of the war, when it became clear that the British government had no intention of altering its anti-Zionist policy, the Haganah began an open, organized struggle against British Mandatory rule in the framework of a unified Jewish Resistance Movement, consisting of Haganah, Irgun Zevai Le'umi - Etzel, and Lohamei Herut Yisrael—Lehi. Haganah branches were established at Jewish D.P. [displaced person] camps in Europe and Haganah members accompanied the “illegal” immigrant boats. In the spring of 1947, David Ben-Gurion took it upon himself to direct the general policy of the Haganah, especially in preparation for impending Arab attack. On May 26 1948, the Provisional Government of Israel decided to transform the Haganah into the regular army of the State, to be called “Zeva Haganah Le-Yisrael”—The Israel Defense Forces. |
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Why not just answer the question?[/b][/quote] He's a fucking idiot. He wants to justify muslim terrorism. Fuck him. |
Buffy, gimme a break.
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Were they terrorists? Yes. Is that ALL they were? Hell, no. |
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You are there.. I am many miles remote seeing what I see on CNN/ABC/CBS or reading in the KC Star or on the Internet.... The news I have available has been washed, rinsed, inspected, rejected, neglected prior to being placed in front of me.... When 9/11 happened here, I was watching it live on TV... raw, unedited.. Much the way the Israeli and Palestinians see what is happening over there on a daily basis.... It is much more real in that context.... and yes, it is a friendly conversation... It was getting too fast for me...lol...I am old fucker, not so fast at the keyboard anymore, ya know.... :agrin: |
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One mans Freedom Fighter is another Man's Terrorist..... |
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And why were the Jews being attacked by Palestinians again? Oh thats right, they were immigrating illegally and seizing other people land. Why? Because they have an old book that justifies their killing and siezing of other peoples land. idiot. Last edited by [Labret] at Sep 16 2003, 04:19 AM |
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Thats why you dont hear me crying about 9-11. What comes around, goes around. And anything that kills off a couple thousand Americans cant be a bad thing can it? Well, cept to the economy. |
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hmmm, well after two years of the "War On Terror", I am inclined to believe its their turn.
I would like to see an actual effort on their behalf to put the word terror back in terrorism. Perhaps a dirty nuke in the Mall of America, or simultaneous truck bombings of elementary schools all over the country. Something that really makes you sit back and say "holy shit". Or god forbid some kind of massive biological attack on an urban area. I say they target New York City again. The audacity of attacking that shithole a third time I think would seriously put a damper on George W's election campaign. So see... terrorism can be a good thing. Last edited by [Labret] at Sep 16 2003, 04:37 AM |
I say fuck this whole taking a turn pretense. Let's mount a sustained war.
Bush is a pussy. He needs to tap more into the sick side of human nature - like the kind that exists in my mind - and really match holy war with holy war. From sand into glass and desert into oil shares. |
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Lemme explain something to you, and not that I expect you to even remotely understand this sort of policy as it is neither black nor white, left nor right... rub those last few brain cells together and contemplate this a bit. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Much the same way the American Nazi Party befriended the Nation of Islam (that would be nigger muslim terrorists to you Buffy), the same way Finland fought for both and against the Nazis during World War II, or even how the United States embraced Saddam when he turned on Iran, as well as the "Freedom Fighters" of Afghanistan that fought the evil Russians that eventually became the Taliban and Al Queda... is how I look at the world. I care about as much about sand niggers as you obviously do about reading and higher education. However, they like to kill Americans and Zionists. That I like. Make that I love. So... the enemy of my enemy is my friend. For the time being. Again, I dont expect you to understand as it does not fit with your view of left and right and will probably cause you much bewilderment and frustration. Its ok though, we dont actually expect you to understand. Last edited by [Labret] at Sep 16 2003, 06:56 AM |
Labret,
Why are "the Zionists" your enemy? |
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