Homegrown remembers when...

[Far-L]

Time for a good ol' fashioned nostalgia thread...

Since I haven't been around these parts for a while, and I started the dang thread, I will go first:

Serge and FM used to fight for pages and pages about which came first, the chicken or the egg, the program or the affiliate

Ynot was a dirty toilet for pissing rather than a tidy desk for study

Evil Chris was doing his show with Dugmor at WRP (ahead of their time when you think about it)

Throwing a webmaster party actually brought in affiliates

Seth still had an office in Seattle... and Flying Crocadile was still run by an expert on shrooms

(add some of your own faves)

[softball]

All night drunken brawls on Amateur Masters.....

[Far-L]

All night drunken brawls on Amateur Masters.....

lol, I resemble that remark...

The greatest of all those rants was the world war three of Cam wars.

[softball]

lol, I resemble that remark...

The greatest of all those rants was the world war three of Cam wars.

I have foggy memories of that. Something to do with who was going to broadcast from Internext or something. Before Dan Hogue bought the board.

[gonzo]

.....when Homegrown was only a magazine

....when a guy named Farrell posed nekkid for a series by Giffy Girls

....when the debate was gif or JPG / PCboard or Wildcat

....when status was owning a HST Dual Standard

...when Jim Maxey was king of the world

...when Lee Noga was busted for scanning nekkids from magazines and reselling them on CD for BBS.

....when the real show was called OneBBSCon

...when an elderly pirate couple called Rusty and Edie were busted by axe wielding Feds for piracy.

Welcome back my oldest online friend. Im pretty sure there are less than a dozen of us that understand the above ramblings but remember that we were there as this began.

Im pretty sure Dennis Hayes, Ward Christianson and Phil Katz never knew who Ron Levy or Serge were either. But then again they probably dont know them either.

[Far-L]

.....when Homegrown was only a magazine

....when a guy named Farrell posed nekkid for a series by Giffy Girls

....when the debate was gif or JPG / PCboard or Wildcat

....when status was owning a HST Dual Standard

...when Jim Maxey was king of the world

...when Lee Noga was busted for scanning nekkids from magazines and reselling them on CD for BBS.

....when the real show was called OneBBSCon

...when an elderly pirate couple called Rusty and Edie were busted by axe wielding Feds for piracy.

Welcome back my oldest online friend. Im pretty sure there are less than a dozen of us that understand the above ramblings but remember that we were there as this began.

Im pretty sure Dennis Hayes, Ward Christianson and Phil Katz never knew who Ron Levy or Serge were either. But then again they probably dont know them either.

lol, yes, that is the way, way back... don't forget theGeneral bbs

... and the day a kid walked in to our San Diego office offering to sell upskirt pics from Mission Beaches unsuspecting bathing beauties -a kid who we turned away and told him to check out this thing called the internet and when we saw him a month later he had a site called "busty amateurs"...

[gonzo]

lol, yes, that is the way, way back... don't forget theGeneral bbs

... and the day a kid walked in to our San Diego office offering to sell upskirt pics from Mission Beaches unsuspecting bathing beauties -a kid who we turned away and told him to check out this thing called the internet and when we saw him a month later he had a site called "busty amateurs"...

The General... hes either in jail or in mexico still I think.

Look on the bright side ... you could have bought that content and he would have found God and wanted it all taken down.

Good to see your legal issues have fully closed and to have you back around.

Danny Cox says Ive lost my goddamn mind by going into the webcam biz.

[Hell Puppy]

.....when Homegrown was only a magazine

....when a guy named Farrell posed nekkid for a series by Giffy Girls

....when the debate was gif or JPG / PCboard or Wildcat

....when status was owning a HST Dual Standard

...when Jim Maxey was king of the world

...when Lee Noga was busted for scanning nekkids from magazines and reselling them on CD for BBS.

....when the real show was called OneBBSCon

...when an elderly pirate couple called Rusty and Edie were busted by axe wielding Feds for piracy.

Welcome back my oldest online friend. Im pretty sure there are less than a dozen of us that understand the above ramblings but remember that we were there as this began.

Im pretty sure Dennis Hayes, Ward Christianson and Phil Katz never knew who Ron Levy or Serge were either. But then again they probably dont know them either.

...Big dickin' was RLL'ing your drives to get 50% more storage.

...A couple of hundred megs and a couple of pioneer 6 CD changers full of Lee's stolen images and Giffy Gold was big time.

...traffic generation was putting obnoxious watermarks on your stolen jpegs. McHenry was the king of obnoxious.

...good parties and dinners weren't populated by kids who were scammers and dopers instead of businessmen, but instead were occupied by the likes of Dennis Hayes, Ward Christiansen, Phil Katz, George Peace, Fred Clark, Chuck Forsberg, Jim Harrer, Andy Keeves, Bob Mahoney...and yes even Jim Maxey....complete with his white linen suit. This would've been at the Broadmoor circa 1993-1994.

I could go on about that last one for a while because that was a dinner that took competitors and got them working together and ultimately led to some standardization, ongoing open communications between principles, and even the early foundations of an industry lobby (which still exists in form of USIIA, but is woefully underfunded).

Dont see it ever happening in adult, the true businessmen will always be undermined by the rogue elements.

[Far-L]

When Homegrown launched Steve Sweets video line and the Sweets threw that crazy party where there was naked sushi girl "platters" and live fisting sex shows and that insane pornstar was getting gang banged in the muddy back yard...

"shaving" was the operative term for scamming

Brian Muir and those genius amateur site tours

[RawAlex]

... when phone sex was a bigger business than the internet.

... when 2 cents a click could make you millions.

[gonzo]

Far L where do you see this crazy ride in 3 years?

[SteveHardeman]

Good stuff. I don't understand 90% of it but I like reading about it. :-)

[MikeSouth]

Hey Far-l

I remember all this shit....damn Im dating myself.....I been at this way too long.

[softball]

Hey Far-l

I remember all this shit....damn Im dating myself.....I been at this way too long.

fifteen years...a decade and a half. Pretty soon you will be shooting girls that weren't even born when you started.

[Far-L]

Hey Far-l

I remember all this shit....damn Im dating myself.....I been at this way too long.

lol, to quote a fave Dead tune, "too much of everything is just enough"...

This thread is all about us old timers patting ourselves on the back for staying alive, staying alive, ah, ha, ha, ha staying alive... and educating the newer arrivals to the game about the fact that we have survived not only the bad times but in some cases the good times too.

[Far-L]

... when phone sex was a bigger business than the internet.

... when 2 cents a click could make you millions.

And when a click bot would do all the work, lol.

[gonzo]

And when a click bot would do all the work, lol.

oh and lest not forget when there was one industry publication and it didnt suck the cock of its advertisers or try to get them over with the rest of us.

Ole Jack Rickard cashed out way before us all and took his Hummer and said fuck all of us.

[gonzo]

Good stuff. I don't understand 90% of it but I like reading about it. :-)

Here you go Steve... let me connect all the dots from 1993... a panel discussing dealing with adult pictures online .... with Jim Maxey and Oprano alumni Lee Noga.

http://www.archive.org/download/bbscon93-adultgifs-ryan/bbscon93-adultgifs-ryan_64kb.m3u

This is back when I formally registered gonzo.com yet you can see now in 2010 some of these issues are still with us.

[Far-L]

Here you go Steve... let me connect all the dots from 1993... a panel discussing dealing with adult pictures online .... with Jim Maxey and Oprano alumni Lee Noga.

http://www.archive.org/download/bbscon93-adultgifs-ryan/bbscon93-adultgifs-ryan_64kb.m3u

This is back when I formally registered gonzo.com yet you can see now in 2010 some of these issues are still with us.

You are a master historian... time to bust out that Lee Noga video clip where she went after the panel at that internext way back when.

[RawAlex]

You are a master historian... time to bust out that Lee Noga video clip where she went after the panel at that internext way back when.

Downstairs, in New Orleans... we all egged her on to do it too :)

[DannyCox]

When Homegrown launched Steve Sweets video line and the Sweets threw that crazy party where there was naked sushi girl "platters" and live fisting sex shows and that insane pornstar was getting gang banged in the muddy back yard...

And we had the Internet rights to the first three Sweets videos (then STP Productions). That "insane pornstar" was one of our girls (that Steve destroyed)! ;)

I remember talking in the phone with some guy names Moffitt from a little company called Homegrown. That was back in 1996 when I was working with Trans-Video with setting up on-line stuff. We talked to Moffitt about selling HGV on-line and he laughed at us, saying the Internet was just a flash in the pan and we wouldn't make money (I always have to bring that up when I see him!) ;)

Then there was the huge gang fight at my studios with the Homegrown and Wild Rose boys taking on all the Italians that tried to crash the party! That was F'n wild, even when the gun fire started!

[DannyCox]

Orlando, 1996, JoeE puts on the very first big webmaster party at a convention. When he goes to pay for it, his credit cards are maxed out and they wouldn't take his company or personal check. They were going to toss him out of the hotel until Pushrod and I chipped in to cover him.

I remember the first Vegas show when ScottPB puked all over some guy in the elevator. Not pretty. That was the same show where he had the shit kicked out of him by someone who I can't remember!

[Far-L]

And we had the Internet rights to the first three Sweets videos (then STP Productions). That "insane pornstar" was one of our girls (that Steve destroyed)! ;)

I remember talking in the phone with some guy names Moffitt from a little company called Homegrown. That was back in 1996 when I was working with Trans-Video with setting up on-line stuff. We talked to Moffitt about selling HGV on-line and he laughed at us, saying the Internet was just a flash in the pan and we wouldn't make money (I always have to bring that up when I see him!) ;)

Then there was the huge gang fight at my studios with the Homegrown and Wild Rose boys taking on all the Italians that tried to crash the party! That was F'n wild, even when the gun fire started!

Yeah, I was right next to Lincoln when that cat pulled the gun and pointed it in his face before pointing it up at the ceiling and firing. (Right after Michael Moore said how guns were no big deal in Canada, lol) I knew we were in Canada though when a couple of those bastards went to their car and came back with sawed off hockey sticks.

You know how to throw one hell of a gang bang / orgy though my friend.

And please, always remind my brother about that... he said the same thing about DVD too btw... the list goes on but it is too embarrassing to continue, lol... until I start sobbing.

[Far-L]

Downstairs, in New Orleans... we all egged her on to do it too :)

We are forgetting one of the early classics... The Kremen vs. Cohen battle for Sex.com - back when that domain was pulling millions per month.

[softball]

Ah.....the when we stories. Like the old dogs playing poker. Not that there is anything wrong with it. Like a buncha old journalists telling expense account and bang bang stories from the middle east....the generation after the Viet Nam vets....who followed the WW2 vets...
Its a sign of aging gracefully when everything was much more fun....when we. You all need to join the Legion and go bowling on Friday nights.

[softball]

Its not quite the same when the biggest drama is "will sleazydream return?" or will Internext crash and burn in pile of ashes and no one can afford Grey Goose anymore. And if you can pay your mortgage, you are in the top 3 per cent.

[LAJ]

I remember when being 30 was old for this industry.

[softball]

I remember when being 30 was old for this industry.
I think it still is....

[gonzo]

Ah.....the when we stories. Like the old dogs playing poker. Not that there is anything wrong with it. Like a buncha old journalists telling expense account and bang bang stories from the middle east....the generation after the Viet Nam vets....who followed the WW2 vets...
Its a sign of aging gracefully when everything was much more fun....when we. You all need to join the Legion and go bowling on Friday nights.

Oprano has been accused more than once of being a dinosaur museum .
Funny though... it didnt take me a bad board skin and selling out people to try to turn to doing business though.

I wonder if Eric will post a tutorial on how to pose as a model like Sunny Leone on ICQ and the steps to successfully stealing affiliate traffic?

I figure it will go over as big as the secret anti piracy forum they have.

And dont worry the piss will continue to flow here so no worries about the call of the pussy... "POST PROOF OR BE BANNED"

[Toby]

I remember when being 30 was old for this industry.

I guess I was born a generation early. I was 37 when I got started in this biz, about 13 years ago.

[Far-L]

Ah.....the when we stories. Like the old dogs playing poker. Not that there is anything wrong with it. Like a buncha old journalists telling expense account and bang bang stories from the middle east....the generation after the Viet Nam vets....who followed the WW2 vets...
Its a sign of aging gracefully when everything was much more fun....when we. You all need to join the Legion and go bowling on Friday nights.

lol, so well put. Forget the legion and bowling though... I play hockey and still resist belonging to any sort of clubs like that. Of course, I also have all my old movies when I was in front of the camera that I can bust out to show my fellow geezers when I get to that point too.

Really, the reason for this thread is twofold.

First, to tip a hat and shake the hands of all my old compadres and maybe even a few arch nemesis' from back in the day when I used to be a regular on this board.

Second, to show the newer generations that the more things change the more they stay the same and the few tried and true players that lasted through it all, weathering the storms of shit that raged continuously, tend to offer the best contrast between good and evil. There are always going to be "sky is falling" doomsday prophets so it helps every now and then to give it all a frame of reference and provide some insights on how to survive the apocalypse.

And of course some of these stories can be pretty entertaining if you haven't heard them 10 times before already... ;-)

[softball]

My first when we porn story, but you guys were still jerking off to Sears catalogues so it is kinda hard to share was a movie called "The Wrong Time, The Wrong Place, the Cockney Rebel Special" shot in 1983 in Wales on a budget of 125 thousand pounds with 12 feature magazine girls and the guy who went on to be Ben Dover. We all got busted and tossed into the Blackwood nick. The lighting director was shit scared cause he told his wife he was shooting a wildlife film for the BBC. We all lived to tell the story.

[MikeSouth]

ya know Im betting everyone here has homegrown stories....me i got lots of em

a hotel shoot that went bad in vegas, another where we shot Anna Malle and melissa Hill in their first scene ever. toymaster and his girl...I forget her name...man those were the days. I remember moffet telling me I needed to shoot more "gaping assholes" and I was thinking yall distribute Max you have all the gaping assholes ya need LOL

i remember mark kulkis taking a shot at farrel and moffet by saying they sounded like names out of a dr suess book.

But how many here know the REAL history and the tie in between Moffet and Farrel and the Movie ( and book) Walking Tall?

[Far-L]

ya know Im betting everyone here has homegrown stories....me i got lots of em

a hotel shoot that went bad in vegas, another where we shot Anna Malle and melissa Hill in their first scene ever. toymaster and his girl...I forget her name...man those were the days. I remember moffet telling me I needed to shoot more "gaping assholes" and I was thinking yall distribute Max you have all the gaping assholes ya need LOL

i remember mark kulkis taking a shot at farrel and moffet by saying they sounded like names out of a dr suess book.

But how many here know the REAL history and the tie in between Moffet and Farrel and the Movie ( and book) Walking Tall?

lol, make sure you clarify the original "Walking Tall" and not that unfortunate Rock remake... and actually the original tale was told in a book by the title "12th of August" that was made into the grindhouse classic "Walking Tall".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Line_Mob

[LAJ]

Nah... I got into this biz in 2000 and was 31 and the vast majority of the people back then were still in their 20s. Go to a show... look around on the boards in threads where people ask you their age... look at all the newbies and startups getting into the biz nowadays... the majority now are 30 and up.

[softball]

Nah... I got into this biz in 2000 and was 31 and the vast majority of the people back then were still in their 20s. Go to a show... look around on the boards in threads where people ask you their age... look at all the newbies and startups getting into the biz nowadays... the majority now are 30 and up.
Wonder why? They pissed away their twenties and didn't learn anything and this is all they got?

[LadyMischief]

For all the "when we" stories we have at Homegrown, goodness knows there's just as much recent fun. We don't mess around when it comes to having a good time! :)

[Far-L]

Wonder why? They pissed away their twenties and didn't learn anything and this is all they got?

Not sure that is the case. I remember when the adult industry (pre-online) was dominated by people that never went to college and maybe didn't even finish high school and if not definitely then probably had organized crime connections and failed actors and actresses that were desperate for a buck. Now, I look around and see plenty of folks with high degrees and even substantial mainstream work backgrounds. Hell, my own bro/partner is a Stanford grad - not that it means much when clobbering time comes around.

Surely, besides the celebrity videos, the fact that the industry has become so much a part of mainstream western culture is also largely due to that participation from "the heartland" and the "middle of the road" and the "normal" people. I know when I did my first tv interviews on the "Joan Rivers" show and the first episode of HBO's "Shock Video", the reaction to us being a couple of college educated, not drug addicted, from nice middle class families, with no history of abuse, and completely unembarrassed about our choice of vocation, young adults made a huge impression. We expected to be vilified and instead they were like, "wow, how interesting, good for you".

[Far-L]

Far L where do you see this crazy ride in 3 years?

Three years from now...

GFY will be sold to the Church of Scientology and being changed into "GoFindYourself" a self help site designed for enticing people to buy in Dianetics and will sell L.Ron Hubbards books.

R_n will announce that CE is back... again. Under new management with a completely revamped design.

Mike South and Peter North will start a website called North vs. South, the civilian porn war

Paris Hilton will convince me to finally return to amateur porn to make a video sequel to "One Night in Paris" that will be called "Can't Forget Paris"

Serge will return to Oprano to chastize Gonzo about his choice of wines served at the after party following the Academy of Cams Award ceremony.

I am sure there is more but let my crystal ball cool down for a sec.

[MikeSouth]

dude yer a riot...you kill me....I miss you guys man say hello to moff for me....

[MikeSouth]

and aI predict that Moffet and Farrel will sue the makers of the walking tall remake for defamation, I mean that was an abysmally bad movie, yall should sue...LOL

[TheEnforcer]

Ahhh.. great memories.... good stuff in this thread...

I remember when I was still married when I first got into this biz in the late 90's lol

[kath]

Why do I always think I can just pop by Oprano in the AM before starting work and ever actually get OUT of one of these threads? OMG - a decade + of memories... some of my personal faves:

- going to my first event (ia2000) and meeting people in the elevator... trying to quietly nudge my husband and go "OMG that's so-and-so..." without acting like a spaz
- packing only "business" clothes for that first trip because I had no idea it would be a casual "come as you are" type event and trying to find a store to buy some jeans/t-shirts that first evening so I wouldn't look like a dork all week
- when Lee Noga flipped out as "host" @ the Atlanta AWE and we replaced her with Dokk (and he did an awesome job from there on out)... that was also the event where I first met Mr. Gonzo and the Atlanta crew - talk about life-changing!
- getting "crabs" from JoeE for Christmas - I thought I'd "arrived" LOL
- the super-networking events like the penthouse NatNet parties @ Cybernet Expo in New Orleans - that whole New Orleans trip was a blast, unlike the poor Internext copy that followed...
- the dreaded/beloved boob wars following every event, especially that one in Vegas where I "accidentally-on-purpose" whacked my then-boss @ the CE/ANS booth in the back of the head with a whole box of boobs after BigB taught me how to really make them "fly"
- but especially working with so many genius minds over the years, brain-storming over dinners, lunches, coffees and drinks @ industry events... some of them are out of the business, some of them I've lost touch with over the years and a few that I sorely miss...

Damn it... I need to get back to work - thanks for the trip down memory lane, hope I can get back to 2010 in time to start the day - LOL.

:okthumb:

[Far-L]

Why do I always think I can just pop by Oprano in the AM before starting work and ever actually get OUT of one of these threads? OMG - a decade + of memories... some of my personal faves:

- going to my first event (ia2000) and meeting people in the elevator... trying to quietly nudge my husband and go "OMG that's so-and-so..." without acting like a spaz
- packing only "business" clothes for that first trip because I had no idea it would be a casual "come as you are" type event and trying to find a store to buy some jeans/t-shirts that first evening so I wouldn't look like a dork all week
- when Lee Noga flipped out as "host" @ the Atlanta AWE and we replaced her with Dokk (and he did an awesome job from there on out)... that was also the event where I first met Mr. Gonzo and the Atlanta crew - talk about life-changing!
- getting "crabs" from JoeE for Christmas - I thought I'd "arrived" LOL
- the super-networking events like the penthouse NatNet parties @ Cybernet Expo in New Orleans - that whole New Orleans trip was a blast, unlike the poor Internext copy that followed...
- the dreaded/beloved boob wars following every event, especially that one in Vegas where I "accidentally-on-purpose" whacked my then-boss @ the CE/ANS booth in the back of the head with a whole box of boobs after BigB taught me how to really make them "fly"
- but especially working with so many genius minds over the years, brain-storming over dinners, lunches, coffees and drinks @ industry events... some of them are out of the business, some of them I've lost touch with over the years and a few that I sorely miss...

Damn it... I need to get back to work - thanks for the trip down memory lane, hope I can get back to 2010 in time to start the day - LOL.

:okthumb:

Boob wars! The best part of any trade show and something that I can genuinely say that even after all the trouble we had with CE back in the day that I still thank them for.

Recalls back when all the amateur girl solo sites used toplists and fought endlessly over who was syphoning traffic, bad trades, etc. and when so many would send their exit traffic on the "no thanks" link to places like disney dot com.

[Far-L]

How about some of the classic meltdowns...

Hanco...the company that spent millions throwing parties before they even made a penny and was done before any would could say "hanc-who?"

Joe E, legendary, say no more

Busty Amateurs! Holy crap... but couldn't it be... born again?

Many more...

[gonzo]

I think the biggest meltdown I ever saw was more like a crash and burn.

I cant remember the guys name but he was and early paysite owner and was building up to be a content provider. He also considered himself a player and a pimp.. so much that he had porn star tattooed across his knuckles.

Anyhow this guy was making a lot of noise and bragging how he always was banging and filming these very fresh faces. And keep in mind he could have been a potential FFN.

He was writing all of these educational pieces to make a name for himself until it all ended. "Porn Star" got popped for shooting and fucking underaged girls. Seems like he was trolling the Greyhound station and picking up hungry runaways. [see every joke here has a reference to a fact]

He was convicted and went away for a few years ...came back and was offering to consult since he couldnt own an adult site anymore as part of his probation.

Now you know why the faces were so fresh and how another asshole fucked it up for the rest of us with more 2257 pressure.

Never did hear how those "porn star" tattoos worked out for him while he was in the cell with Big Dick Black.

[Hell Puppy]

Two words: tom blanchard.

[Far-L]

Two words: tom blanchard.

Greg Lasrado

[softball]

Greg Lasrado

Is he in jail?

[gonzo]

Is he in jail?

I think I read that Shiraz is out with his fellow inmate ScottPB.

[softball]

I think I read that Shiraz is out with his fellow inmate ScottPB.

Do they teach you to fix Lambos in jail?

[Far-L]

Any predictions for what or who will be the next spectacular crash and burn?

[gonzo]

Any predictions for what or who will be the next spectacular crash and burn?

Toss up between Jayxxx and PornoDan or the final chapter of AFF.

[Far-L]

Toss up between Jayxxx and PornoDan or the final chapter of AFF.

lol, can't speak for either JayXXX or AFF but I can certainly say that Porno Dan has made an art form of crashing and burning (but somehow only coming through with a bit of a singe) which is at times awe inspiring.

[softball]

lol, can't speak for either JayXXX or AFF but I can certainly say that Porno Dan has made an art form of crashing and burning (but somehow only coming through with a bit of a singe) which is at times awe inspiring.
Teflon comes to mind

[EmporerEJ]

Toss up between Jayxxx and PornoDan or the final chapter of AFF.

I hope it's not Porno Dan.
The guy always seems to be "swinging" away.

:huh:

[MikeSouth]

define crash and burn...porno dan got the blonde tips knocked outta his hair last night.

but I say AFF because the pornodan and xxxjay thing wont get big enough to explode.

Someone give Dominic Kane legendary Liars address will ya.

[RawAlex]

I have to say that XXXJay has impressed me with his ability to not be standing under heavy objects when they fall. It is a real skill.

[Toby]

Hey Far-L wtf is up with this? :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown

http://www.pornhub.com/users/HomeGrownVideo

[softball]

Hey Far-L wtf is up with this? :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown

http://www.pornhub.com/users/HomeGrownVideo

Interesting. Theft?

[Toby]

Interesting. Theft?

Not with an affiliate link to HomeGrown above each clip. :mad:

[softball]

Not with an affiliate link to HomeGrown above each clip. :mad:
I was trying to be "generous". Farell, could you please drop by and explain your position.

[Far-L]

I was trying to be "generous". Farell, could you please drop by and explain your position.

What is the problem here? We advertise on tubes. If our content is used without permission or without our branding then we ask it to be removed or replaced.

Is this an anti tube tribunal? Upon what charges am I being accused? Can you please be more specific?

[Toby]

What is the problem here? We advertise on tubes. If our content is used without permission or without our branding then we ask it to be removed or replaced.

Is this an anti tube tribunal? Upon what charges am I being accused? Can you please be more specific?

Pornhub is one of the largest illegal tubes (as in stolen content). Why would you choose to do business with theives?

[softball]

What is the problem here? We advertise on tubes. If our content is used without permission or without our branding then we ask it to be removed or replaced.

Is this an anti tube tribunal? Upon what charges am I being accused? Can you please be more specific?
Thanks for responding.

[tony404]

boy the tone here changed quick lol

[EmporerEJ]

boy the tone here changed quick lol

Are you surprised?

[Far-L]

I don't mind a heathly debate of this but seems to me that you all think that it is a character issue and not a business consideration. Either way... I am open to discussion. Let's go.

[Toby]

I don't mind a heathly debate of this but seems to me that you all think that it is a character issue and not a business consideration. Either way... I am open to discussion. Let's go.

The high volume of traffic on PornHub and other sites like it is due to the large number of full scenes and full dvds. Nearly all of these longer vids have been "uploaded" without consent of the copyright holder. Without that stolen content there would be minimal traffic to the site.

By doing business with PornHub you are participating in the exploitation and use of that stolen content to generate income for both yourself and for PornHub.

Not only is this ethically questionable, it's detrimental to the health of this industry, particularly to those whose content is being used without consent.

[gonzo]

I have more to say about this but I dont want to steer the conversation one way or another so I will contribute 2 things in hopes that the thread stay constructive.

1. Instead of falling for another membership drive by the FSC promising to save your content I recommend Eric Green's service at Remove Your Content.

Removeyourcontent offers adult content producers, webmasters and distributors a unique service to fight online media piracy. We do not publish client lists, actively solicit services or upsell through webmaster affiliate programs. Nearly all of our business has been by word of mouth, repeat and referals. If you are frustrated with online content theft and file-sharing, please consider our service to help you take back your copyrights!


2. Brazzers seems to be in a little trouble here in atlanta for alleged money laundering.

http://adultfyi.com/read.php?ID=40145

[sarettah]

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:okthumb:

[MikeSouth]

OK advertising on pornhub puts money directly into the pocket of a company that is doing it's best to fuck every honest adult webmaster in this biz. I took Jule Jordan to task for this and owned his ass.

I dont need money badly enough to accept a paid ad from brazzers or Adult Friend Finder or any number of others...I'd rather eat gruel than put any money in their pockets.

For me its even good business sense as well as ethical

[tony404]

I don't mind a heathly debate of this but seems to me that you all think that it is a character issue and not a business consideration. Either way... I am open to discussion. Let's go.

pink visual I think sees it different
http://www.xbiz.com/news/117538

[Toby]

pink visual I think sees it different
http://www.xbiz.com/news/117538

:okthumb: :clapping: :beer:

[gonzo]

pink visual I think sees it different
http://www.xbiz.com/news/117538

I was about to say that the wager just went up a notch with that lawsuit.

I stand by my crash and burn prediction.

[softball]

Here is the way I see it Far-L........ Making money stealing other people's hard work (case in point Illegal tubes) is pure and simple theft. Any moron can get hot product and fence it. It makes you a thief. Maybe worse than a crack dealer, who at least pays for his product and if he steals it, runs a high risk of getting shot. If you do business with people who steal from others, you probably think you are at arm's length. I say you are encouraging bad behavior and are consciously involved in theft of other people's hard work.
When I read some of the when we stories on this thread, I kinda shake my head as well. You all seem to look back fondly on some very shady business practices. (some of which were down right illegal). A lot of this stuff is what killed the golden goose. It wasn't smart business at all. Personally, I have never participated in that dishonesty and am not about to start.
I detect a lot of desperation lately in the biz from both big and small companies. And apparently your solution is to dance with the devil. We may have had differences in the past, but I always respected you as a person. But now that the shit has hit the fan, perhaps true character surfaces. I hope I am wrong and you can convince us otherwise. I know I am just a voice in the wilderness.

[Far-L]

Toby - I don't recall you taking the same position when tgp and mgp raised the same questions. Now don't give me the "well it is whole movies" argument because as far as I am concerned any content that is used without permission is not ok. A surfer can jerk off to a single image just as easily as a 20 second low res clip or a full HD movie. The unfortunate fact is that content producers must police their own copyrights and trademarks and that requires eternal vigilence by the copyright holder. Your argument is just plain sophistry and is an emotional reaction rather than a logical determination. How does putting up my content solicit any sort of illicit use of content? How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent? If I see my content up there without permission then I have it fixed with our branded versions and they act with extreme promptness; in my experience, that means they are acting appropriately. I usually receive a result within MINUTES.

EJ - I will take your point much more seriously when we actually see a royalty report for that content of ours that just happens to also be used in your animated sig gif - btw... don't remember authorizing that usage but correct me if I am wrong since that deal is from years ago.

Mike South - I have to worry enough about our content and I am not about to take on yet another battle for this industry. You and I both know that we have our own responsibility to police our own marks. When we contact a tube about our unauthorized usage I base my criticism of them for or against on whether they respond to our remove request quickly and whether they accept our offer to work with authorized versions. Are we getting some sort of preferential treatment? I seriously doubt it. When I first sent emails to the "offenders" I was professional and direct and I often was responded to with compliments for being that way instead of coming at them with the typical tirades that many approach the situation with.

One thing I learned years ago "coming online" is not to believe what you see or hear. I remember freaking about password sites until I learned that the majority of those passwords were seeded by the programs themselves as a means of getting traffic. There is a strong possibility that a lot of so-called unauthorized content going up probably is being put up by programs.

Gonzo - I have heard nothing but great things about that service, thanks for throwing that in.

The truth here is that since the beginning of online adult marketing there has been a business model of free to pay conversion. Has it been abused? Yes. Is there a way for it to work? Yes. Is there going to be a perfect condition where no content goes up unauthorized? No. Does that mean that you can't still try to work with the situation? No, not at all, and like everything else in this world you just have to try to make the best of it.

[Far-L]

Here is the way I see it Far-L........ Making money stealing other people's hard work (case in point Illegal tubes) is pure and simple theft. Any moron can get hot product and fence it. It makes you a thief. Maybe worse than a crack dealer, who at least pays for his product and if he steals it, runs a high risk of getting shot. If you do business with people who steal from others, you probably think you are at arm's length. I say you are encouraging bad behavior and are consciously involved in theft of other people's hard work.
When I read some of the when we stories on this thread, I kinda shake my head as well. You all seem to look back fondly on some very shady business practices. (some of which were down right illegal). A lot of this stuff is what killed the golden goose. It wasn't smart business at all. Personally, I have never participated in that dishonesty and am not about to start.
I detect a lot of desperation lately in the biz from both big and small companies. And apparently your solution is to dance with the devil. We may have had differences in the past, but I always respected you as a person. But now that the shit has hit the fan, perhaps true character surfaces. I hope I am wrong and you can convince us otherwise. I know I am just a voice in the wilderness.

I don't believe in content theft at all, nor was any of my recollections fond remembrances condoning the behaviours or business practices of those that went down in flames. I love that quote from Sun Tzu that runs something like "happiness is seeing the bodies of your enemies float by in the river". Will some of these companies be the companies of tomorrow that burn up in thier own greed? I hope so and I would actually bet on it.

You use phrases like "dance with the devil" and try to insinuate that I am somehow doing something innapropriate when the actuality is far from that. I work hard to protect our content and I have spent more time and money fighting for the rights of content producers in this industry than most, probably including you. The tubes owners we have worked with have been very proactive making sure that they are only working with legit material. I suppose you have some sort of inside information to the contrary? Share it then, or are you just content to just make accusations based on suppositions of entirely circumstantial evidence? That doesn't seem very ethical to me.

[softball]

So what you are saying is that the content thieves you work with are ok in your book because when they steal something, they give it back right away when asked. So buddy breaks into your house and steals your watch. Oops he gets caught and you say just give it back and thats the end of it. It sounds awfully like the guy that gets busted for speeding and he tells the cop that he was just keeping up with traffic. You lay down with thieves and pretty soon it sounds ethical. But it isn't. It has still fucked online business and you are doing more damage than any good you did fighting that Acacia thing which was a tempest in a teapot from the get go.
So, how does it feel to be one of the bad guys now that you are grown up? Fuck me, I hope I never get that old. Is Hannity on radio pre set?

[Far-L]

pink visual I think sees it different
http://www.xbiz.com/news/117538

I would love to see this go all the way and settle the issue once and for all but what do you want to bet that there is a quick out of court settlement that puts Pink Visual up front and center on those sites?

[Toby]

Far-L, Wankability isn't the issue here, you've completely missed my whole point. Let me restate.

It's the existence of those long clips that is driving the traffic on these illegal tubes. Surfers visit Pornhub because of the existence of that stolen content. If the long clips weren't there then Pornhub would be no different than the hundreds of other tube sites with sponsor provided promo clips, and modest traffic volume.

As for your question, "How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent?" That's really not difficult at all. Do you see any links back to the originating site on most of that content? Are the watermarks still readable on the clips? The answer is no on the vast majority of the long clips. In addition, I've read comments by numerous producers stating that they've not authorized use of long clips on any site.

The bottom line is really quite clear and irrefutable. If you're doing biz with Pornhub et. al. then you're supporting content theft.


Toby - I don't recall you taking the same position when tgp and mgp raised the same questions. Now don't give me the "well it is whole movies" argument because as far as I am concerned any content that is used without permission is not ok. A surfer can jerk off to a single image just as easily as a 20 second low res clip or a full HD movie. The unfortunate fact is that content producers must police their own copyrights and trademarks and that requires eternal vigilence by the copyright holder. Your argument is just plain sophistry and is an emotional reaction rather than a logical determination. How does putting up my content solicit any sort of illicit use of content? How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent? If I see my content up there without permission then I have it fixed with our branded versions and they act with extreme promptness; in my experience, that means they are acting appropriately. I usually receive a result within MINUTES.

[softball]

I love that quote from Sun Tzu that runs something like "happiness is seeing the bodies of your enemies float by in the river"

Could have just as easily come from "The Godfather".

[softball]

I would love to see this go all the way and settle the issue once and for all but what do you want to bet that there is a quick out of court settlement that puts Pink Visual up front and center on those sites?
Far-L I have to say its kinda sad to see you making so many excuses.....

[gonzo]

I would love to see this go all the way and settle the issue once and for all but what do you want to bet that there is a quick out of court settlement that puts Pink Visual up front and center on those sites?

Many of us will agree on this point that your probably right.

[tony404]

I would love to see this go all the way and settle the issue once and for all but what do you want to bet that there is a quick out of court settlement that puts Pink Visual up front and center on those sites?

yeah I can see that.

[softball]

yeah I can see that.
I sort of get it, but its not a matter of settling any issue, its a matter of stopping piracy....theft of assets...once and for all. Everything else is just double speak. Karl Rove 101

[bluemoney]

:jerry:

[Toby]

:jerry:

Jerry wishes he had that kind of traffic volume. :rolleyes:

[EmporerEJ]

Far-L
You mis-understand, my message in response to the mood change was in defense Of YOU.

I thought you posted a perfectly open and friendly thread, and it was quickly turned into something nasty, very quick. And it wasn't warranted.

I was about to say, and will say, I think you can do whatever you want with YOUR content, and any clown that complains about it should confine themselves to any content, they themselves created.

Please contact me via private message with a current direct contact info.

[Toby]

Far-L
You mis-understand, my message in response to the mood change was in defense Of YOU.

I thought you posted a perfectly open and friendly thread, and it was quickly turned into something nasty, very quick. And it wasn't warranted.

I was about to say, and will say, I think you can do whatever you want with YOUR content, and any clown that complains about it should confine themselves to any content, they themselves created.

Please contact me via private message with a current direct contact info.

So I can put you down in the column under "supports content theft" as well. :rolleyes:

This is far more complex than just doing what you want with your own content. This is a case of exploiting stolen content (or more precisely the traffic generated by the unauthorized use of that stolen content) for financial gain. Personally, I don't need the money badly enough to crawl in bed with thieves.

[EmporerEJ]

So I can put you down in the column under "supports content theft" as well. :rolleyes:

This is far more complex than just doing what you want with your own content. This is a case of exploiting stolen content (or more precisely the traffic generated by the unauthorized use of that stolen content) for financial gain. Personally, I don't need the money badly enough to crawl in bed with thieves.

No, thank you Toby, you can't put words in my mouth. I don't accept your premise. It's exactly like I said. I know FAR-L and the Homegrown people would have nothing to do with theft, and because they may have made a legit deal with someone about their content, doesn't make them "supporting everything else that party may or MAY NOT do." (I honestly don't know the other people, and frankly, don't care to.)
They aren't answerable to you for their content, or how they want to market their product. I haven't checked, but I'll bet it's their name on the electric Bill.

Next, you'll say, because I wrote a few articles for a magazine, I was somehow responsible for an ad for one of the crooked vendors that may have appeared in the same issue with something I wrote?

While the rest of the industry stood around pulling Their collective pud, homegrown stood up against Acacia with their own money. I remember that one, do you? Everyone was hiding under the blankets and hoping Acacia wouldn't notice their website, while these guys went out and Kicked Acacia's ass.
On THEIR dime. (and they're STILL paying.) EVERYONE in ANY kind of streaming business OWES THEM.
The entire streaming video WORLD (not just adult,) benefited from their efforts. And if you can't see that, then man, I feel sorry for you.

And still, the "armchair legal minds" sat around on boards spouting off about how much bullshit it was. But they said it quietly, from under cover.
Not a whole lot of folks sending them checks, or joining the fight.
I for one, am VERY grateful.

If I knew nothing else about the Homegrown folks, that would be enough of a character statement to squelch any thought as to their "intentions."

I don't know what it is that's made you so bitter recently, but after knowing your words for so many years to be level headed, I gotta tell you, I've been wondering.

:scratchin

[Far-L]

So what you are saying is that the content thieves you work with are ok in your book because when they steal something, they give it back right away when asked. So buddy breaks into your house and steals your watch. Oops he gets caught and you say just give it back and thats the end of it. It sounds awfully like the guy that gets busted for speeding and he tells the cop that he was just keeping up with traffic. You lay down with thieves and pretty soon it sounds ethical. But it isn't. It has still fucked online business and you are doing more damage than any good you did fighting that Acacia thing which was a tempest in a teapot from the get go.
So, how does it feel to be one of the bad guys now that you are grown up? Fuck me, I hope I never get that old. Is Hannity on radio pre set?

You are another sophist. All you are doing is making colorful and insulting analogies that may or may not fitly describe the situation... but you sound clever making them I will give you that... no matter how insulting they are.

Didn't you used to go buy a different name in the amateur masters board heydey? Why did you change it? I find that... highly... suspicious.

You call Acacia a tempest in a teapot? Then for one that proves how little you know and basically reveals how seriously you should be considered in your opinion. Tell that to Time Warner, AOL, or any of the other parties in the case and see if they agree with you.

You only are trying to disparage me with highly personal attacks just like back in the day. Some things never change. Working with the tubes we work with doesn't make me "bad". You may not agree with it but you have yet to make one real point that makes one iota of sense on deeper inspection.

For example, let me take your silly crack analogy and twist it another way... who is more ethical, the dealer that sells uncut product in a free society where drugs are legal or the cop that plants drugs on a suspect to make a bust in a society where those same drugs are illegal? I see you as the dirty cop.

I have never condoned stealing content and for any of you to infer otherwise is just plain wrong.

[Far-L]

Far-L, Wankability isn't the issue here, you've completely missed my whole point. Let me restate.

It's the existence of those long clips that is driving the traffic on these illegal tubes. Surfers visit Pornhub because of the existence of that stolen content. If the long clips weren't there then Pornhub would be no different than the hundreds of other tube sites with sponsor provided promo clips, and modest traffic volume.

As for your question, "How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent?" That's really not difficult at all. Do you see any links back to the originating site on most of that content? Are the watermarks still readable on the clips? The answer is no on the vast majority of the long clips. In addition, I've read comments by numerous producers stating that they've not authorized use of long clips on any site.

The bottom line is really quite clear and irrefutable. If you're doing biz with Pornhub et. al. then you're supporting content theft.

Actually you are the one missing the point and I would have figured that you would not need it spelled out, but since that is not the case I will do my best to make it simple and clear enough for you to understand.

You and I both know that tgp started with stolen content and mgp as well. You also know that both of those changed in due course due to changing trends in the industry - namely, copyright holders policed their content more and the main purveyors of those traffic pumps changed to be compliant with legalities or face litigation... Now if I am not mistaken, you used to use tgp/mgp to get traffic, correct me if I am wrong, but who did you work with if that was or still is the case? Were all of them squeaky clean from day one? I bet not. In fact, none of them still are because the fact remains that despite their best efforts unauthorized content still gets posted time and again. Or maybe you worked with top list trade scripts? Well, all of those were sorely misused and abused so did that make you a crook because you supported that and did your best to use them in an honest fashion? So what does that make everyone that used or continues to use those advertising methods? Crooks? Tell that to every program out there and see what kind of response you get.

Maybe when you guys get away from trying to accuse me of being dishonest and unethical then something more intelligent can enrich this discussion.

[Far-L]

No, thank you Toby, you can't put words in my mouth. I don't accept your premise. It's exactly like I said. I know FAR-L and the Homegrown people would have nothing to do with theft, and because they may have made a legit deal with someone about their content, doesn't make them "supporting everything else that party may or MAY NOT do." (I honestly don't know the other people, and frankly, don't care to.)
They aren't answerable to you for their content, or how they want to market their product. I haven't checked, but I'll bet it's their name on the electric Bill.

Next, you'll say, because I wrote a few articles for a magazine, I was somehow responsible for an ad for one of the crooked vendors that may have appeared in the same issue with something I wrote?

While the rest of the industry stood around pulling Their collective pud, homegrown stood up against Acacia with their own money. I remember that one, do you? Everyone was hiding under the blankets and hoping Acacia wouldn't notice their website, while these guys went out and Kicked Acacia's ass.
On THEIR dime. (and they're STILL paying.) EVERYONE in ANY kind of streaming business OWES THEM.
The entire streaming video WORLD (not just adult,) benefited from their efforts. And if you can't see that, then man, I feel sorry for you.

And still, the "armchair legal minds" sat around on boards spouting off about how much bullshit it was. But they said it quietly, from under cover.
Not a whole lot of folks sending them checks, or joining the fight.
I for one, am VERY grateful.

If I knew nothing else about the Homegrown folks, that would be enough of a character statement to squelch any thought as to their "intentions."

I don't know what it is that's made you so bitter recently, but after knowing your words for so many years to be level headed, I gotta tell you, I've been wondering.

:scratchin

Much appreciated, EJ, i apologize for knocking on you previously. You are still good people in my book... no matter what Thrillhammer says about you. ;-)

[Toby]

Maybe when you guys get away from trying to accuse me of being dishonest and unethical then something more intelligent can enrich this discussion.

Far-L, you can justify this in your own mind any way you wish, but the fact is that you are doing business with content thieves who are exploiting the traffic generated by the unauthoriized use of stolen content for financial gain. This isn't just my opinion, but based on numerous public discsussions on multiple boards over the last several years it's the prevailing opinion within the industry.

What TGP/MGP did in the distant past is irrelevant. And for the record, I've never knowingly traded traffic with other TGPs that were using stolen content. There hasn't been much stolen content on TGP's in many many years.

What is relevant is what Pornhub is doing today.

I can see you're too deeply invested in your position at this point to change it, so there is but one thing left for me to do. I shall add Homegrown to my blacklisted sponsors alongside Brazzers, AFF, Dee's Evil Empire, Incredible Dollars,Twistys, Kink.com and some others. I will not promote, nor will I accept galleries from others that promote these sponsors. I'm just one small webmaster, but I know there are others that feel the same about doing biz with Pornhub.

[EmporerEJ]

Much appreciated, EJ, i apologize for knocking on you previously. You are still good people in my book... no matter what Thrillhammer says about you. ;-)

He's just mad 'cause he's gotta drag that damn heavy chair all over the place......and I looked better on TV.

:yowsa:

[Toby]

I don't know what it is that's made you so bitter recently, but after knowing your words for so many years to be level headed, I gotta tell you, I've been wondering.

I'm not bitter, nor have I changed my views. The only thing that is different is that I am a bit more outspoken.

You're the only one in this thread defending Far-L's position. That in itself speaks volumes.

[RawAlex]

The easiest way to see the effects of long clip tubes sites on the business is to look at what those sites are selling. Hint: They ain't selling porn.

What they are doing is turning porn into the throwaway, the gimmie, the gimmick that gets people in the door. It isn't what they are intending to sell. They are trying to sell dating, cams, and just about any well paying scam of the month.

If their intention was to sell porn, they would do it with short clips. When they are putting up long clips, full scenes, or full scenes split over a couple of files you know that their intention isn't to sell porn.

So every time you allow a video of yours to run on one of these sites, you are teaching more people not to pay for porn (it's a freebie!) and you are degrading the value of your content and back catalog with it.

Short term, you might see some sales, but in the long run, a whole generation is learning not to pay.

[EmporerEJ]

I'm not bitter, nor have I changed my views. The only thing that is different is that I am a bit more outspoken.

You're the only one in this thread defending Far-L's position. That in itself speaks volumes.

You've always been outspoken. And usually, level headed. And for years, I've respected your opinion. But in this case, I guess we just disagree. And there is nothing wrong with people disagreeing, I suppose.

You bet I support Far-l. Character counts. And in the last 11 years of the online biz that I've known Far-l, I know he's a standup guy, honest, and very helpful to the industry. As is his brother, and Spike.

And even if I didn't personally KNOW about their character, I would still be on the "content creator/owner's" side on this.
It is, very simply, the golden rule. "he who holds the gold, makes the golden rule."
It's Their product. THEY aren't doing anything wrong, except marketing their product in a way that has somehow tripped the "Toby moral alarm."

I don't know about the tube people, maybe they did what they are accused of. But I don't have an opinion, because they are just a company accused of something.
There is alot of that going around with these tube people...all of them. The big guys too. and with direct interaction.....ie, they own the site(s.) Why aren't you railing against them?

I didn't see one of them on your list.

So, if you want to say my defense of Far-L speaks something?
You bet. I'll take that. With Honor.

I don't agree with your interpretation of what it means, but I'll stand with them.

[Toby]

The big guys too. and with direct interaction.....ie, they own the site(s.) Why aren't you railing against them?

I have no idea who you're referring to. Brazzers is on the list. They're the owners of Pornhub, Tube8, Keezmovies and Extremetube. If you're aware of other major sponsors/producers that own/operate illegal tube sites then by all means name them and show me the evidence they're connected. I'll add them to my blacklist.

Not every sponsor on my blacklist is there for the same reason. In fact most are there due to overly aggressive pre-checked cross sales.

[EmporerEJ]

The easiest way to see the effects of long clip tubes sites on the business is to look at what those sites are selling. Hint: They ain't selling porn.

What they are doing is turning porn into the throwaway, the gimmie, the gimmick that gets people in the door. It isn't what they are intending to sell. They are trying to sell dating, cams, and just about any well paying scam of the month.

If their intention was to sell porn, they would do it with short clips. When they are putting up long clips, full scenes, or full scenes split over a couple of files you know that their intention isn't to sell porn.

So every time you allow a video of yours to run on one of these sites, you are teaching more people not to pay for porn (it's a freebie!) and you are degrading the value of your content and back catalog with it.

Short term, you might see some sales, but in the long run, a whole generation is learning not to pay.

Crap-

Let's dial this clock back.
This EXACT same scenario started 25 years ago.

From '85-94, I owned a chain of video stores in Central PA. We had an adult room, and that's where the profit was.

And we had new releases, and we had cheap stuff. And even today, ALL the studios sell DVDs for a $1 or less wholesale. It's called a "loss leader."
Sell the cheap stuff for next to nothing, get them in the "store," and sell them something else. Next time you walk in a drug store, explain why they are selling motor oil, and candy?

A (legitimate) tube site is just the same thing. Piracy is theft, plain and simple. But there are some awful; fuzzy licensing deals in this industry, and there is "fair use" in marketing a product. I don't know that any of that explains the current situation, but neither does anyone else. Certainly not another vendor that happens to be on the site, selling their product through the same "store front."

Personally, tube sites don't help, or hurt my business. I can understand why it worries website owners that have been selling someone else's products for years, through a nicely designed website, and making 50+% on others' work, with no value added.

Maybe it's time to take a hard look at the "membership model" websites have been doing for years? You had a great run, but the market is changing.


When I grew up TV was "Free." We had an antenna, and a rotor, and we were forced to watch 10 minutes per hour in commercials to "pay" for the content. Now, people pay upwards of $200/month for this same "free" TV model, with 20+ minutes of commercials. Who is complaining about THAT rip off?

Point being, markets change, adapt or die. But don't blame the public that wants something for free because we taught them that. You might as well shake your fist at the sun for giving you a sunburn.

(Nobody is gonna like this, but it's true)

[EmporerEJ]

I have no idea who you're referring to. Brazzers is on the list. They're the owners of Pornhub, Tube8, Keezmovies and Extremetube. If you're aware of other major sponsors/producers that own/operate illegal tube sites then by all means name them and show me the evidence they're connected. I'll add them to my blacklist.

Not every sponsor on my blacklist is there for the same reason. In fact most are there due to overly aggressive pre-checked cross sales.

It would be inappropriate of me to name them for several reasons, not least of which, is, I'm not privy to the details of the situation, only what I read in the media. Smart fellow like you will probably have it come to you. And frankly, I'd prefer you didn't ask me to confirm it when it does.

So I choose NOT to attack other people, even when I know for a fact they are using others' intellectual property in a way I don't approve of. It's Not my place to tell them how to run their business.

[softball]

You are another sophist. All you are doing is making colorful and insulting analogies that may or may not fitly describe the situation... but you sound clever making them I will give you that... no matter how insulting they are.

Didn't you used to go buy a different name in the amateur masters board heydey? Why did you change it? I find that... highly... suspicious.

You call Acacia a tempest in a teapot? Then for one that proves how little you know and basically reveals how seriously you should be considered in your opinion. Tell that to Time Warner, AOL, or any of the other parties in the case and see if they agree with you.

You only are trying to disparage me with highly personal attacks just like back in the day. Some things never change. Working with the tubes we work with doesn't make me "bad". You may not agree with it but you have yet to make one real point that makes one iota of sense on deeper inspection.

For example, let me take your silly crack analogy and twist it another way... who is more ethical, the dealer that sells uncut product in a free society where drugs are legal or the cop that plants drugs on a suspect to make a bust in a society where those same drugs are illegal? I see you as the dirty cop.

I have never condoned stealing content and for any of you to infer otherwise is just plain wrong.

So, you either think I am wise and philisophical or specious. I will assume the former, though I am sure, as your rhetoric implies, you mean the latter.
I have to take acception. I actually tell it like I see it and talk it like I walk it. Sooooo.....Acacia? Time Warner et al? Even big companies can be intimidated. I have always thought and still do, that patent was going to crash and burn one way or the other. That whole deal was up to you. At the time, I offered two thousand dollars to support that fight and never heard back from your little coalition. Talk to your good friend JMM....perhaps he had something to do with that. another stellar individual and close friend of yours.
And yes....as Toby says, theft is theft and you have been caught with your fingers in the cookie jar.
And, as I said before, this theft that you are defending is more harmful to the business than Acacia ever was. The worst that could have happened with them was license fees. This shit that Homegrown is supporting by propping up thieves, is actually putting people out of business. I just shake my head that a company like yours continues to defend this.

you may not agree with it but you have yet to make one real point that makes one iota of sense on deeper inspection.
Bullshit.


Didn't you used to go buy a different name in the amateur masters board heydey? Why did you change it? I find that... highly... suspicious.
Buy a name? What does that mean????lololol
And what is suspicious exactly?

I gotta admit, you still post like the old days with your non oxford dictionary. Words as weapons.

[RawAlex]

When I grew up TV was "Free." We had an antenna, and a rotor, and we were forced to watch 10 minutes per hour in commercials to "pay" for the content. Now, people pay upwards of $200/month for this same "free" TV model, with 20+ minutes of commercials. Who is complaining about THAT rip off?

Point being, markets change, adapt or die. But don't blame the public that wants something for free because we taught them that. You might as well shake your fist at the sun for giving you a sunburn.

(Nobody is gonna like this, but it's true)

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on the TV thing. First off, TV was never "FREE!", it was just without apparent cost. But first, you had to buy a receiver (often expensive), and you have to power it, and then you had to sit through commercials. You paid for TV with your attention.

Plenty of people are complaining about paying high dollars for "FREE!" tv, usually until you tell them to stick an antenna outside and see what they get. They would miss their A&E, FX, ESPN, CNN, and all those other channels that they get.

Cable or Sat isn't selling you TV, they are selling you reception.

As for "markets change", I get in to this discussion often enough in the mainstream world. The simple fact is if nobody is paying for porn, porn will no longer be made at the same level it is made now. The current situation is untenable for both sides, because the tubes are entirely reliant on low to no cost high quality porn they can push to sell their dating and cam shows, and the porn companies aren't making enough money to keep making the porn. If and when the porn business can no longer supply the content, both sides fail.

As I have said to many before, I can't help but thinking that porn (and news, and other things) will all move to "pay per view" or "pay per use" environments, and get out of the types of "FREE!" promotions that aren't doing anything but helping other industries who have no intention of paying for the content to start with.

[Far-L]

The easiest way to see the effects of long clip tubes sites on the business is to look at what those sites are selling. Hint: They ain't selling porn.

What they are doing is turning porn into the throwaway, the gimmie, the gimmick that gets people in the door. It isn't what they are intending to sell. They are trying to sell dating, cams, and just about any well paying scam of the month.

If their intention was to sell porn, they would do it with short clips. When they are putting up long clips, full scenes, or full scenes split over a couple of files you know that their intention isn't to sell porn.

So every time you allow a video of yours to run on one of these sites, you are teaching more people not to pay for porn (it's a freebie!) and you are degrading the value of your content and back catalog with it.

Short term, you might see some sales, but in the long run, a whole generation is learning not to pay.

Ok, thanks for actually saying something intelligent and not making a personal attack on me.

I thought the same thing about free content years ago. I couldn't believe people would give away, gasp, photos of cumshots... ie, the MONEY SHOT!!! I thought why pay when you could get free money all day long. Well, that of course turned out not to be the case, and today I doesn't seem different. I say that because why would any of the tube traffic convert for us? And sometimes converts really well under the circumstances...

I have used the example before and I will use it again here. Free tv and pay tv. You can catch Sopranos for free edited and years after it played on HBO unedited. That is essentially how people are using the tubes. Most, like us, "recycle" the content in tubes but it is no where near the quality people find inside Homegrown. Nor is there any where near the kind of customer service and member experience. Now I agree that sites that don't have what we have or do what we do will be hurt by tubes in the manner you describe, but that was no different during the height of tgp/mgp when customers would get inside certain member areas and think... "wtf, I have seen all this stuff already for free!" Am I supposed to be struggling to worry about those site's programs? Sorry, but no. The sooner they disappear the better for every single quality membership based site as far as I am concerned.

The time tested adage of you get what you pay for still applies, imo.

[Far-L]

Far-L, you can justify this in your own mind any way you wish, but the fact is that you are doing business with content thieves who are exploiting the traffic generated by the unauthoriized use of stolen content for financial gain. This isn't just my opinion, but based on numerous public discsussions on multiple boards over the last several years it's the prevailing opinion within the industry.

What TGP/MGP did in the distant past is irrelevant. And for the record, I've never knowingly traded traffic with other TGPs that were using stolen content. There hasn't been much stolen content on TGP's in many many years.

What is relevant is what Pornhub is doing today.

I can see you're too deeply invested in your position at this point to change it, so there is but one thing left for me to do. I shall add Homegrown to my blacklisted sponsors alongside Brazzers, AFF, Dee's Evil Empire, Incredible Dollars,Twistys, Kink.com and some others. I will not promote, nor will I accept galleries from others that promote these sponsors. I'm just one small webmaster, but I know there are others that feel the same about doing biz with Pornhub.

lol. Busted. You can't be that oblivious or that much in denial can you? The relevance is very much the point and exactly why you come out looking like an even bigger hypocrate to deny it. You are in essence saying, "if I didn't know about it or it happened in the past then as far as you are concerned it didn't happen." Sounds like kind of loosey goosey moral authority as far as I am concerned.

Sorry to hear we are blacklisted from something that never ever supported us one bit in the first place. I can see your efforts against those other programs have been highly successful.

Guess I better go back to doing gang bangs for $50 bucks a pop in LA.

[Far-L]

So, you either think I am wise and philisophical or specious. I will assume the former, though I am sure, as your rhetoric implies, you mean the latter.
I have to take acception. I actually tell it like I see it and talk it like I walk it. Sooooo.....Acacia? Time Warner et al? Even big companies can be intimidated. I have always thought and still do, that patent was going to crash and burn one way or the other. That whole deal was up to you. At the time, I offered two thousand dollars to support that fight and never heard back from your little coalition. Talk to your good friend JMM....perhaps he had something to do with that. another stellar individual and close friend of yours.
And yes....as Toby says, theft is theft and you have been caught with your fingers in the cookie jar.
And, as I said before, this theft that you are defending is more harmful to the business than Acacia ever was. The worst that could have happened with them was license fees. This shit that Homegrown is supporting by propping up thieves, is actually putting people out of business. I just shake my head that a company like yours continues to defend this.


Bullshit.


.
Buy a name? What does that mean????lololol
And what is suspicious exactly?

I gotta admit, you still post like the old days with your non oxford dictionary. Words as weapons.

Leave it to you to start hammering for my late night typos after playing 5 hours of hockey. Get off the sauce, rummy. You aren't adding anything to this discussion other than your bilious nature. If you have nothing to say other than I made a grammatical mistake then you have already revealed that your contribution to this business discussion is just a bunch of bluster to try sounding important and superior.

By the way, that comment about offering money to the defense group is an utter and complete lie. What did you do? Post in a thread that you would help? So what, so did a hundred other people that never did any more than make that claim to look like they were "behind us". You never contacted us. My phone and email was, is, and will always be easy to find. You never offered money. Maybe you thought you did that during one of your drunken stupors but I assure you that is incorrect.

[Toby]

lol. Busted. You can't be that oblivious or that much in denial can you? The relevance is very much the point and exactly why you come out looking like an even bigger hypocrate to deny it. You are in essence saying, "if I didn't know about it or it happened in the past then as far as you are concerned it didn't happen." Sounds like kind of loosey goosey moral authority as far as I am concerned.

Sorry to hear we are blacklisted from something that never ever supported us one bit in the first place. I can see your efforts against those other programs have been highly successful.

Guess I better go back to doing gang bangs for $50 bucks a pop in LA.

Give me a fuckin' break and quit evading the damn issue. I'm not oblivious nor am I denying that it happened. The fact that it happened isn't at issue unless you think I personally did biz with them and am therefore no longer credible. I did not then and I do not now. I check out my trade partners pretty closely. I can't recall the last time I found stolen content on a TGP requesting a trade.

I have had a few galleries submitted to my TGPs with stolen content. Those submitters were immediately blacklisted and other TGP owners where they submitted were notified, as well as the owner of the content and the site they were trying to promote with the stolen content.

The TGP past is irrelevant because it's not currently at issue. What is at issue is that Pornhub currently contains mostly stolen content and you don't seem to have any qualms about doing business with them. If the stolen content was in their past, but they were running a clean site today, we wouldn't be having this disussion.

Pornhub is dirty now, and you are doing business with them now. That's the only issue that is relevant.

[RawAlex]

Ok, thanks for actually saying something intelligent and not making a personal attack on me.

I thought the same thing about free content years ago. I couldn't believe people would give away, gasp, photos of cumshots... ie, the MONEY SHOT!!! I thought why pay when you could get free money all day long. Well, that of course turned out not to be the case, and today I doesn't seem different. I say that because why would any of the tube traffic convert for us? And sometimes converts really well under the circumstances...

I have used the example before and I will use it again here. Free tv and pay tv. You can catch Sopranos for free edited and years after it played on HBO unedited. That is essentially how people are using the tubes. Most, like us, "recycle" the content in tubes but it is no where near the quality people find inside Homegrown. Nor is there any where near the kind of customer service and member experience. Now I agree that sites that don't have what we have or do what we do will be hurt by tubes in the manner you describe, but that was no different during the height of tgp/mgp when customers would get inside certain member areas and think... "wtf, I have seen all this stuff already for free!" Am I supposed to be struggling to worry about those site's programs? Sorry, but no. The sooner they disappear the better for every single quality membership based site as far as I am concerned.

The time tested adage of you get what you pay for still applies, imo.

I think though you are denying one reality: It isn't your old content that is on tube sites (and / or out on torrents), it is the brand new stuff.

Example, I wrote a blog entry yesterday about content that a sponsor had just added hours before. When I went to check, the content was indexed into Google on tube sites and on torrents, literally within hours of it's release.

Your content isn't any more or any less protected than that. I am sure that you can find content that is only weeks old already widely available for free, in full.

Tube sites that work with illegal or questionably sourced material, who play exceptionally long clips, etc, are not doing you any favors. They aren't giving you promotion, they are giving your valuable product away, and lowering it's market price. Heck, with over exposure, it could even lose it's actual value.

If you were talking about only 4 or 5 year old content, perhaps you might have a point. But fresh content is out there, and you appear to be saying that it isn't important that you support or work with one of the tube sites with the dirtiest hands of all.

http://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?viewkey=2076915176

How much porn is being promoted here? NONE. They already know what you are denying, that their customers know that the market value of porn is zero. 81 minute video? No problem, we aren't selling porn, we are selling adult friend finder and bigger penises. There isn't a single porn link out of there. That should tell you everything you need to know. You are not getting promotion, you are getting used. That they happen to use lube instead of dry humping your corporate ass doesn't really change the result, just how much you think it hurts.

[Far-L]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on the TV thing. First off, TV was never "FREE!", it was just without apparent cost. But first, you had to buy a receiver (often expensive), and you have to power it, and then you had to sit through commercials. You paid for TV with your attention.

Plenty of people are complaining about paying high dollars for "FREE!" tv, usually until you tell them to stick an antenna outside and see what they get. They would miss their A&E, FX, ESPN, CNN, and all those other channels that they get.

Cable or Sat isn't selling you TV, they are selling you reception.

As for "markets change", I get in to this discussion often enough in the mainstream world. The simple fact is if nobody is paying for porn, porn will no longer be made at the same level it is made now. The current situation is untenable for both sides, because the tubes are entirely reliant on low to no cost high quality porn they can push to sell their dating and cam shows, and the porn companies aren't making enough money to keep making the porn. If and when the porn business can no longer supply the content, both sides fail.

As I have said to many before, I can't help but thinking that porn (and news, and other things) will all move to "pay per view" or "pay per use" environments, and get out of the types of "FREE!" promotions that aren't doing anything but helping other industries who have no intention of paying for the content to start with.

In your assessment of "free tv" you claim that it wasn't free because you had to pay for the reciever, antenna, etc. and that is essentially "paying for reception" too, right? Well, cable makes you pay a premium for reception AND content. However, also in your example the content providers never profited from which tv or antenna you bought, while cable operators do pay the content providers for subscriptions, even if they are collected as "packages" or "bundles" of content including the channels you named.

I agree that pay per use or view will always be strong, but I also think that a premium can be charged for a quality member experience... as long as membership has its privileges so to speak. I believe it is human nature to strive for elite and privileged experiences, entertainment or otherwise.

C'mon... after sex can be free, right? So why do people pay for it. Even billionaires. Even movie stars. And so on, throughout history.

[Far-L]

Give me a fuckin' break and quit evading the damn issue. I'm not oblivious nor am I denying that it happened. The fact that it happened isn't at issue unless you think I personally did biz with them and am therefore no longer credible. I did not then and I do not now. I check out my trade partners pretty closely. I can't recall the last time I found stolen content on a TGP requesting a trade.

I have had a few galleries submitted to my TGPs with stolen content. Those submitters were immediately blacklisted and other TGP owners where they submitted were notified, as well as the owner of the content and the site they were trying to promote with the stolen content.

The TGP past is irrelevant because it's not currently at issue. What is at issue is that Pornhub currently contains mostly stolen content and you don't seem to have any qualms about doing business with them. If the stolen content was in their past, but they were running a clean site today, we wouldn't be having this disussion.

Pornhub is dirty now, and you are doing business with them now. That's the only issue that is relevant.

Precisely my point. What tgp's did you work with? All the top ones that I know of admit openly that they started with unauthorized content. If you did business with any of them then you knowingly or unknowingly, doesn't matter which, worked with admitted scammers. Now you want to sit in a glass house and throw stones at me like you are somehow superior. What makes that worse is you think that because it happened yesterday instead of today makes a difference. Well, to the truly ethical person it does not.

I don't know what content is or is not authorized on Pornhub. All I know is that they have proactively and professionally and responsibly handled my issues with our content being used without permission. And that is what we use as a measure of whether or not they are intentionally stealing OUR content. Other companies may have had a different experience, but that is their matter as a company to deal with. Maybe the Pink Visual lawsuit will prove otherwise and I can see the situation in more black and white terms like you so clearly do. When that day comes, if it comes, because I doubt it will, then I will be happy to admit my wrongness.

Until then, do me a favor and lay off your baseless accusations and admit your own "unclean hands".

[Toby]

Precisely my point. What tgp's did you work with? All the top ones that I know of admit openly that they started with unauthorized content.My first TGP didn't go online until 2004. It and all but my most recent are narrow niche fetish wear specific. I don't trade with large general category TGP's. I trade with other niche relevant TGPs. Even if some of them were involved in content theft years ago, I still fail to see what that has to do with today. If they're clean now, and have been so for years, then their traffic today is clean.

Stolen content on TGPs hasn't been more than an isolated issue for many years, ever since sponsor hosted galleries became the norm.

Until then, do me a favor and lay off your baseless accusations and admit your own "unclean hands".My hands are clean, and your attempts to discredit me rather than address the real issue have become rather transparent.

[tony404]

right or wrong gonzo should give far-l a free banner on oprano. I dont remember ever seeing a 3 page thread here. lol

[Far-L]

My first TGP didn't go online until 2004. It and all but my most recent are narrow niche fetish wear specific. I don't trade with large general category TGP's. I trade with other niche relevant TGPs. Even if some of them were involved in content theft years ago, I still fail to see what that has to do with today. If they're clean now, and have been so for years, then their traffic today is clean.

Stolen content on TGPs hasn't been more than an isolated issue for many years, ever since sponsor hosted galleries became the norm.

My hands are clean, and your attempts to discredit me rather than address the real issue have become rather transparent.

So, you are ok with those tgp that "cleaned up their act". Well, as far as I can tell, all the tubes we are working with seem to be making the same effort so what is the difference? Degrees of cleanliness? That is like degrees of pregnancy as far as I am concerned. You either are clean or you are not and if you are not then how you deal with it is what look at and what I deal with accordingly... just like you apparently.

I successfully discredited you already so doing so again at this point is useless. I have responded to your allegation directly by concrete historical examples and I didn't rely on any sort of insinuation or personal insult to try and disparage you unfairly, as you have been doing to me.

I have dealt with our unauthorized usage and I continue to do so. I have been very proactive about protecting our content. If anyone does not respond to our request for removal then we get very upset and seek legal remedy immediately. We work with tubes that are proactively removing our unauthorized content and fairly promoting our authorized content. My job is not to protect my competition's content as that responsibility rests on them. That is my position. I am not ducking or avoiding anything. Take it or leave it.

[gonzo]

right or wrong gonzo should give far-l a free banner on oprano. I dont remember ever seeing a 3 page thread here. lol

You havent been around here a long time Tony. Threads have pushed 30 pages or more until we all got busy working other ways besides the economics of piss.

This is a heated topic and its being aggressively debated. The difference is that most of the people debating actually know each other as opposed to being keyboard warriors.

They are also businessmen who have a degree of respect for each other.

That being said Farrell is my oldest friend in this business and he knows how to get in contact with me should he need to for any reason.

Toby is someone that I have met in the last 5 years or more that I respect as well as Graham.

Its a good debate.... you have Farrell representing HGV as a studio.... Graham who represents the individual director/ content producer and Toby whos role is a pure affiliate.

At this point I have nothing constructive to add so Im reading just like you are.

[Far-L]

You havent been around here a long time Tony. Threads have pushed 30 pages or more until we all got busy working other ways besides the economics of piss.

This is a heated topic and its being aggressively debated. The difference is that most of the people debating actually know each other as opposed to being keyboard warriors.

They are also businessmen who have a degree of respect for each other.

That being said Farrell is my oldest friend in this business and he knows how to get in contact with me should he need to for any reason.

Toby is someone that I have met in the last 5 years or more that I respect as well as Graham.

Its a good debate.... you have Farrell representing HGV as a studio.... Graham who represents the individual director/ content producer and Toby whos role is a pure affiliate.

At this point I have nothing constructive to add so Im reading just like you are.


Thanks, I just want to add for the sake of clarity that I am a program owner/partner, content producer, and the affiliate of many other programs... and have been around long enough to see this debate come up time and time again. Really, there are two debates here, free vs pay, and authorized vs stolen. For me, the first is full of varying shades of grey while the other is black and white. The problem is the line between the two debates gets blurred by emotions like anger and anxiety.

As an aside... One has only to plumb the old amateur board archives to see that I have been down the piss trail with Graham on more that one occasion. Nothing new there.

[Toby]

So, you are ok with those tgp that "cleaned up their act". Well, as far as I can tell, all the tubes we are working with seem to be making the same effort so what is the difference? Degrees of cleanliness? That is like degrees of pregnancy as far as I am concerned. You either are clean or you are not and if you are not then how you deal with it is what look at and what I deal with accordingly... just like you apparently.

I successfully discredited you already so doing so again at this point is useless. I have responded to your allegation directly by concrete historical examples and I didn't rely on any sort of insinuation or personal insult to try and disparage you unfairly, as you have been doing to me.

I have dealt with our unauthorized usage and I continue to do so. I have been very proactive about protecting our content. If anyone does not respond to our request for removal then we get very upset and seek legal remedy immediately. We work with tubes that are proactively removing our unauthorized content and fairly promoting our authorized content. My job is not to protect my competition's content as that responsibility rests on them. That is my position. I am not ducking or avoiding anything. Take it or leave it.
You've not done a thing to discredit me but attempt to make general references to past practices of a some old TGPs that I've never had any dealings with. Your examples have nothing at all to do with doing business in the here and now with content thieves. I would have had the same issues with doing business with those old TGP sites when they were content thieves. (BTW, damn few of them still exist, and those few that do remain are mostly under different ownership. The only thing still the same about the majoirity of those sites is the domain name)

I'm not currently dealing with thieves, nor have I knowingly done so in the past. If Porhub et al were truly trying to clean up their act, all of the unauthorized clips would be gone from their sites. Until then, they are in the content theft business. No grey area, no degrees of clean. Either there is a large quantity of stolen content on their sites or there is not. At this point the vast majority of clips on their sites is still stolen content.

As for having dealings with those that were shady in the past, they'd first need to demonstrate they can operate a clean site for a substantial time. As I stated earlier, content theft on TGPs is ancient history, it hasn't been an issue in many many years so the point is more or less moot.

You can keep dancing with the Devil, but sooner or later there will be a price to pay.

P.S. That old amateur board no longer exists, the archive is long gone, only the domain survives, much like those old TGPs.

[Far-L]

You've not done a thing to discredit me but attempt to make general references to past practices of a some old TGPs that I've never had any dealings with. Your examples have nothing at all to do with doing business in the here and now with content thieves. I would have had the same issues with doing business with those old TGP sites when they were content thieves. (BTW, damn few of them still exist, and those few that do remain are mostly under different ownership. The only thing still the same about the majoirity of those sites is the domain name)

I'm not currently dealing with thieves, nor have I knowingly done so in the past. If Porhub et al were truly trying to clean up their act, all of the unauthorized clips would be gone from their sites. Until then, they are in the content theft business. No grey area, no degrees of clean. Either there is a large quantity of stolen content on their sites or there is not. At this point the vast majority of clips on their sites is still stolen content.

As for having dealings with those that were shady in the past, they'd first need to demonstrate they can operate a clean site for a substantial time. As I stated earlier, content theft on TGPs is ancient history, it hasn't been an issue in many many years so the point is more or less moot.

You can keep dancing with the Devil, but sooner or later there will be a price to pay.

P.S. That old amateur board no longer exists, the archive is long gone, only the domain survives, much like those old TGPs.

Ok, so as long as you didn't knowingly deal with thieves you are somehow superior? Ok. Tell that one to the judge.

How much of Pornhub is stolen content? Please tell me something specific and not based on hearsay. I don't know. All I know is they take our stuff down when asked if it goes up and they replace it with our branded version. Sounds like they are making an effort to clean up. If not, then hopefully that Pink Visual lawsuit will make it clear for you, me, and everyone else that has a dog in this fight.

But seriously, you still need remedial courses in logic and ethics.

[Toby]

Ok, so as long as you didn't knowingly deal with thieves you are somehow superior? Ok. Tell that one to the judge.

How much of Pornhub is stolen content? Please tell me something specific and not based on hearsay. I don't know. All I know is they take our stuff down when asked if it goes up and they replace it with our branded version. Sounds like they are making an effort to clean up. If not, then hopefully that Pink Visual lawsuit will make it clear for you, me, and everyone else that has a dog in this fight.

But seriously, you still need remedial courses in logic and ethics.

Scanning through the clips on that site, assuming the most recent week of uploads are an accurate sampling, then about 80% or more of the clips are from unauthorized sources. If you want a more accurate figure from another source then maybe Gonzo can get Eric from RemoveYourContent to give his estimate on that figure.

I'll take the remedial course recommendation under advisement, but since you're the only one in my nearly 50 years on this planet to question my logic or my ethics I just don't see that happening.

[gonzo]

Thanks, I just want to add for the sake of clarity that I am a program owner/partner, content producer, and the affiliate of many other programs... and have been around long enough to see this debate come up time and time again. Really, there are two debates here, free vs pay, and authorized vs stolen. For me, the first is full of varying shades of grey while the other is black and white. The problem is the line between the two debates gets blurred by emotions like anger and anxiety.

As an aside... One has only to plumb the old amateur board archives to see that I have been down the piss trail with Graham on more that one occasion. Nothing new there.

I have to wonder from my own experience what is it you are doing right that others are ineffective with concerning your content with Pornhub.

I know several studios that have tried getting a line of communication with them that couldnt even get a fuck you.

Maybe thats something to take constructively away from this debate.

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

That being said Ive unknowingly supported some scary billing practices in the past.

And I made my share of cash with Wegcash as they paid me for email addresses that I realized later were being collected to spam. That looks harmless now when you compare their free tube site that will recur to a $106 charge in 3 days if you were naive enough to give up a credit card.

It is apparent that each of us have to decide what the cost of doing business is and where to draw the line.

Ill have to honestly say I dont agree with what your doing but I dont think that makes you a bad person either.

All in all Im not one to judge as Im not in your shoes and I dont have the same business pressures as you.

What Im trying to say is that if some of us dont start to work together towards some solutions there isnt going to be much left to make a living with very soon.

Its not just the tube issue.

This industry as a whole has trained the consumer that in most cases they can get their jerk on for free. The ones left willing to pay for value live in fear of being hammered with a bunch of charges for things they didnt want.

Its a perfect storm if you add in the recession and the low bar of entry to make your own porno.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?

[gonzo]

ONe more thing as for Pornhub piracy...

This is a very interesting read

http://www.takedownpiracy.com/2010/01/connecting-dots-brazzers-and-tube-sites.html

[Hell Puppy]

Much as I hate it, the quote shows to be more and more true over time...

"Everyone has the ethics and morals they can afford..."

[Hell Puppy]

Everyone bitched when pic posts appeared because they gave away too much content...and overall conversion rates for the industry dropped slightly.

Then came thumb posts....those drew much more traffic! Everyone bitched, conversions dropped some more.

Then MGPs....same deal...

Now to draw the huge traffic, you give away full length clips on a tube site...MASSIVE traffic. But conversion rates are insane.

And as the number of customers drop, the temptation to milk every penny you can get off of the credit cards you do see is too much for many.

So how do we outdraw the tubes? HD Tubes? I haven't really dug, but I bet there are some out there. Or maybe we give private cam shows away for free.

We can bitch, moan and fight amongst ourselves, but the reality is we're circling the bowl.

[Far-L]

Scanning through the clips on that site, assuming the most recent week of uploads are an accurate sampling, then about 80% or more of the clips are from unauthorized sources. If you want a more accurate figure from another source then maybe Gonzo can get Eric from RemoveYourContent to give his estimate on that figure.

I'll take the remedial course recommendation under advisement, but since you're the only one in my nearly 50 years on this planet to question my logic or my ethics I just don't see that happening.

I will wait for Gonzo or Eric to give me something better than your assumption which is based on what? You saw a lot of content there? I can't tell. But seeing as how you are still content to condemn people based on circumstantial assumptions I will just add that to the list of reasons why your assessments of me and my business practices hold so little weight.

[Toby]

I will wait for Gonzo or Eric to give me something better than your assumption which is based on what? You saw a lot of content there? I can't tell. But seeing as how you are still content to condemn people based on circumstantial assumptions I will just add that to the list of reasons why your assessments of me and my business practices hold so little weight.

Both RawAlex and myself have told you how to tell which videos are stolen. You just have to open your eyes and look. 80% is a conservative estimate.

[gonzo]

I will wait for Gonzo or Eric to give me something better than your assumption which is based on what? You saw a lot of content there? I can't tell. But seeing as how you are still content to condemn people based on circumstantial assumptions I will just add that to the list of reasons why your assessments of me and my business practices hold so little weight.

I only know what studios told me last year when I was talking with them lat year as we were developing marketing for RealTouch.

Eric works with this every day and all day. Ill see if he has some stats but he keeps a low profile as would I.

[Far-L]

I have to wonder from my own experience what is it you are doing right that others are ineffective with concerning your content with Pornhub.

I know several studios that have tried getting a line of communication with them that couldnt even get a fuck you.

Maybe thats something to take constructively away from this debate.

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

That being said Ive unknowingly supported some scary billing practices in the past.

And I made my share of cash with Wegcash as they paid me for email addresses that I realized later were being collected to spam. That looks harmless now when you compare their free tube site that will recur to a $106 charge in 3 days if you were naive enough to give up a credit card.

It is apparent that each of us have to decide what the cost of doing business is and where to draw the line.

Ill have to honestly say I dont agree with what your doing but I dont think that makes you a bad person either.

All in all Im not one to judge as Im not in your shoes and I dont have the same business pressures as you.

What Im trying to say is that if some of us dont start to work together towards some solutions there isnt going to be much left to make a living with very soon.

Its not just the tube issue.

This industry as a whole has trained the consumer that in most cases they can get their jerk on for free. The ones left willing to pay for value live in fear of being hammered with a bunch of charges for things they didnt want.

Its a perfect storm if you add in the recession and the low bar of entry to make your own porno.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?

Ok, this is chock full of stuff to respond to and I may not get to it all but here goes:

What worked for me was simply sugar instead of vinegar, a professional approach that was simple, direct, and succinct. "We don't want our content up without permission and request that you remove it, and, btw, since our content seems so popular on your site why don't we find a way that is mutually profitable". Something along those lines has been highly effective for us. I often received responses like "thank you for your professional demeanor, yes we will work with you, and this is a better approach than the hate mail we typically get..."

Next, I don't expect everyone to do what we do or agree with what we do. Everyone is free to choose their own path in this admittedly difficult arena. I resisted tgp and mgp for a long time, and that cost us dearly in the long run. For us, in this case, I was not going to make the same mistake we made last time. The whole tube debate is fraught with "damned if we do, damned if we don't". That is what makes it so difficult for companies in our position. In our case, we have decided that we are going to make the best of a bad situation and try to survive. Our business model has had to flex and bend and contort many times over the years. What worked yesterday may be tomorrow's downfall. That is true in any industry.

However, I came into this business having studied a very successful grassroots business that thrived on so-called "free content". As a huge Grateful Dead fan I can essentially get any recording of any show I want for free. So why do I pay for their content? The answer lies in premium quality and excellent service and a user experience that justifies me laying out the cash. Based on those principles, I feel that "free content" is never going to wipe out "paid content". More than likely, only those that don't deliver the whole kip and kaboodle will be gone tomorrow and to me that is not a problem but a perk.

[Far-L]

Both RawAlex and myself have told you how to tell which videos are stolen. You just have to open your eyes and look. 80% is a conservative estimate.

Because you don't see a link? What about the traffic trades with "our friends"? How about the possibility that they actually did license some of the material. You are making a causal inference based on circumstantial evidence. Doesn't hold up for me but you can run with it if it makes you feel better about your superiority complex and all.

[gonzo]

Ok, this is chock full of stuff to respond to and I may not get to it all but here goes:

What worked for me was simply sugar instead of vinegar, a professional approach that was simple, direct, and succinct. "We don't want our content up without permission and request that you remove it, and, btw, since our content seems so popular on your site why don't we find a way that is mutually profitable". Something along those lines has been highly effective for us. I often received responses like "thank you for your professional demeanor, yes we will work with you, and this is a better approach than the hate mail we typically get..."

Next, I don't expect everyone to do what we do or agree with what we do. Everyone is free to choose their own path in this admittedly difficult arena. I resisted tgp and mgp for a long time, and that cost us dearly in the long run. For us, in this case, I was not going to make the same mistake we made last time. The whole tube debate is fraught with "damned if we do, damned if we don't". That is what makes it so difficult for companies in our position. In our case, we have decided that we are going to make the best of a bad situation and try to survive. Our business model has had to flex and bend and contort many times over the years. What worked yesterday may be tomorrow's downfall. That is true in any industry.

However, I came into this business having studied a very successful grassroots business that thrived on so-called "free content". As a huge Grateful Dead fan I can essentially get any recording of any show I want for free. So why do I pay for their content? The answer lies in premium quality and excellent service and a user experience that justifies me laying out the cash. Based on those principles, I feel that "free content" is never going to wipe out "paid content". More than likely, only those that don't deliver the whole kip and kaboodle will be gone tomorrow and to me that is not a problem but a perk.

I dont know what methodology studios use to communicate. I have found that many I have personally dealt with over the years STILL dont get the internet and could benefit from someone that knows how to work the problems we all face as well as doing some effective PR.

My experience is most use the National Enquirer approach by releasing a promo about having a porn vid of some dead rock guitarist or a statement on offering a mother of 8 a contract to be in a porn video.

I would agree with you on the premium quality issue except for one thing.
When you dont pay for content it frees up money to develop a better free experience than is available in some cases for pay.

I came into this business from the shareware mentality. You hold back something for your paying clients. A feature, the rest of the movie or behind the scenes.

Shareware gave away something for free as well as building goodwill with a base of fans that were potential customers. I know several guys back from the BBS era that became millionaires with this approach and the programs werent very complex.

Marshall Magee and AutoMenu come to mind.
You remember good ole Dos and the command prompt?
This program started out at $5 to register and heres how far it went well after he made his first million.

http://www.magee.com/magee/Automenu.htm

[Toby]

Because you don't see a link? What about the traffic trades with "our friends"? How about the possibility that they actually did license some of the material. You are making a causal inference based on circumstantial evidence. Doesn't hold up for me but you can run with it if it makes you feel better about your superiority complex and all.

You're the only one that seems to be having issue acknowledging the fact that most of the content on Pornhub is stolen. I'm not just pulling this info out of thin air. Pornhub has been the topic of discussion many times on the various boards over the last several years with nearly every major producer/sponsor lamenting about their content on Pornhub.

Nearly all of the clips over about 7 or 8 minutes are unauthorized. I'm not aware of ANY sponsors allowing use of longer clips. The few licensed longer clips are pretty clearly watermarked. They're all older discounted broker content. The exact percentage of stolen content, whether it's 44.99% or 99.44% isn't really relevant anyway. What is relevant is that they have a large amount of stolen content on their sites and the presence of those longer clips is what is driving their traffic.

You're not going to believe anything I say, so go look for yourself, open your own eyes, just take off the blinders and rose colored glasses first. Look at how many clips have had the bottom portion stretched to remove the waterark. Look at how many clips are from known sources who produce their own exclusive content. It's not rocket science.

P.S. The better way to not make the same mistake as with tgp and mgp is to provide hosted FLV's for your affiliates.

[gonzo]

A moment of levity if I may.

I looked at the link Toby posted in the earlier thread and I have to wonder... if you go to work for Homegrown do you have to become a porn star?

[LadyMischief]

A moment of levity if I may.

I looked at the link Toby posted in the earlier thread and I have to wonder... if you go to work for Homegrown do you have to become a porn star?

Well I wouldn't say that, but I would say that if you work for Homegrown, you have to be free-spirited. Most of us HG folks embody what we love, sex, sensuality, sexuality, and the celebration of all that it is. It's not just a product we push or a service we offer, it's a lifestyle and a mindset first and foremost.

[EmporerEJ]

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?

Well, first of all, I gotta check some of my old BBS CDs.....
:huh:

I've got a suggestion, and it's very simple;

The people that create a product do what they WANT with a product. The rest are subject to what they can build from the creator. But it still follows the golden rule.

And much like the buggy whip manufacturer of old, stop crying about getting an increasing share of a decreasing market, and start creating new markets.

That's how a free market works, lest we forget, 15 years ago, there was no industry for many here. (FAR-L was in the basically same Biz, though.)

[softball]

By the way, that comment about offering money to the defense group is an utter and complete lie.
Fuck you. I don't lie. You should know that by now. You might try and hunt down your old friend Jeff Miller whose ethics you seem to be emulating and ask him. Rummy? I think not. I just see through you and you hate it. That kind of slander is the last resort of the loser. And as far as I can see, you have painted yourself into a corner. BTW, I never pointed out a grammatical error in anything you posted. You just got trumped and trying to fob it off as a grammatical malfunction just sucks (pardon the simplicity). After a hard day of hiking in the mountains of Big Sur, I might be pardoned for not being as bellicose as you try and make me out when I point out what I see as the truth. The old Far-L would never have resorted to lying on a web board. The new Far-L is not as charming, witty or as astute. What the fuck happened to you. dude?

[softball]

Much as I hate it, the quote shows to be more and more true over time...

"Everyone has the ethics and morals they can afford..."
Bingo

[softball]

Ill have to honestly say I dont agree with what your doing but I dont think that makes you a bad person either.
I agree, G. I don't think Far-L is a bad person. I totally disagree with what his company is doing and I think he is misguided and gets very angry when challenged and leads with his chin. But I am sure he is an entertaining fellow. I gotta say though, HG and companies that support content theft in any way are very bad for business and ethicsgo out the window when business is bad. Especially when you have a boatload of people depending on you for their rent cheques.

[gonzo]

I agree, G. I don't think Far-L is a bad person. I totally disagree with what his company is doing and I think he is misguided and gets very angry when challenged and leads with his chin. But I am sure he is an entertaining fellow. I gotta say though, HG and companies that support content theft in any way are very bad for business and ethicsgo out the window when business is bad. Especially when you have a boatload of people depending on you for their rent cheques.

We are all in the same boat if its 1 or 100 that depend on this for a living.

I do agree with creating new markets with products as well but for now I see no innovation.

[Far-L]

Fuck you. I don't lie. You should know that by now. You might try and hunt down your old friend Jeff Miller whose ethics you seem to be emulating and ask him. Rummy? I think not. I just see through you and you hate it. That kind of slander is the last resort of the loser. And as far as I can see, you have painted yourself into a corner. BTW, I never pointed out a grammatical error in anything you posted. You just got trumped and trying to fob it off as a grammatical malfunction just sucks (pardon the simplicity). After a hard day of hiking in the mountains of Big Sur, I might be pardoned for not being as bellicose as you try and make me out when I point out what I see as the truth. The old Far-L would never have resorted to lying on a web board. The new Far-L is not as charming, witty or as astute. What the fuck happened to you. dude?

lol. Nice try but if that is all you got then you are going to have to try a lot harder.

First, I was friendly with Jeff back in the day but I have neither seen or heard from the guy in many years so you can hardly call that a "friend". You can ask him about his involvement or lack thereof in our defense group. But if you made any sort of deal with Jeff I can assure you that he never brought it to the group, and I can also say that he has been out of the defense group for quite some time. You guys are great at assuming everything so I bet you can fill in your own details as to why.

How is it that you have added one single valuable thing, one small contribution of intelligent discourse, to this thread? Remind me, because I don't think anyone here is that impressed that you are trying to badger and belittle me like you were still in High School.

Btw... the rummy comment harkens back to the days when I used to have to put up with your self important drivel. You forget who I know and what I know about you. If you have cleaned up your act then bully for you.

You obviously haven't stopped being a self important bloated bag of wind. With an alias like "rhetorical" doesn't that say it all?

That was a rhetorical question.

[softball]

You forget who I know and what I know about you. If you have cleaned up your act then bully for you.
What the fuck are you talking about? Dude, have you considered anger management. First I was lying about my offer. Now you are not so sure.
because I don't think anyone here is that impressed that you are trying to badger and belittle me like you were still in High School.
I would say your anger is again getting the better of you. I think if you re read your rhetoric and the conclusions you jumped to, the shoe is clearly on your foot.
I dunno, Far-L you seem to be spinning out of control. Who put the bug up your ass and how come you are losing it so badly?

[softball]

I just re read this thread.....hmmmmm. With the state of this biz today (I think someone already said this, but hey I wanna say it again) this is not a time to be fighting like old housewives. Business is business and we all have to make a living. I personally disagree with the way HG is doing it and that is a matter for legitimate discussion. However, I also think that this thread is not doing anyone any good. I would like to apologize to Far-L for participating in the hair pulling. I would also like to say that Toby had a good point in bringing this topic up. I have nothing but respect for Toby and the way he does business.
Gonzo has done a great job of steering the ship. Many would have locked the thread or worse.
I am bowing out of this melee but I do think a lot of good arguments have been made and everyone knows my position which has remained steadfast since tgp's stole content as anyone who ever followed amateurmasters will attest.

[tony404]

Well, first of all, I gotta check some of my old BBS CDs.....
:huh:

I've got a suggestion, and it's very simple;

The people that create a product do what they WANT with a product. The rest are subject to what they can build from the creator. But it still follows the golden rule.

And much like the buggy whip manufacturer of old, stop crying about getting an increasing share of a decreasing market, and start creating new markets.

That's how a free market works, lest we forget, 15 years ago, there was no industry for many here. (FAR-L was in the basically same Biz, though.)
Giving the house away is not some new hot business model. Sorry its just keeps diluting the value of porn. The problem is most who became successful on the net weren't brilliant but lucky. From the whole affiliate model, instead lets make a better product that people will want to sell and will convert.It was lets give them $100 a sign up.It was like a ponzi scheme that could only be sustained if the sign up numbers were high. They started to tank so then its lets bang the credit card and its because the affiliates want so much.If this was truly a smart industry when the economy slowed down. All free stuff should of been pulled back dramatically to make the value go up. But no its now give away full scenes on the hope they may buy. It all has a air of desperation to it. It's like from Casino "We had the world by the balls and we fucked it all up "
This statement has nothing to do with Far-L. Its all very short term and its sad.

[gonzo]

I just re read this thread.....hmmmmm. With the state of this biz today (I think someone already said this, but hey I wanna say it again) this is not a time to be fighting like old housewives. Business is business and we all have to make a living. I personally disagree with the way HG is doing it and that is a matter for legitimate discussion. However, I also think that this thread is not doing anyone any good. I would like to apologize to Far-L for participating in the hair pulling. I would also like to say that Toby had a good point in bringing this topic up. I have nothing but respect for Toby and the way he does business.
Gonzo has done a great job of steering the ship. Many would have locked the thread or worse.
I am bowing out of this melee but I do think a lot of good arguments have been made and everyone knows my position which has remained steadfast since tgp's stole content as anyone who ever followed amateurmasters will attest.

I expected the thread to be heated. And I also figured noone here would get down to making threats against the other... just a have a sitdown.

Most of us work with this all day everyday so its an important issue and always a lot of emotion involved when your talking about the way people make a living. Especially during a time when several have the potential to go bust.

This isnt GFY. I didnt allow traffic junkies to skin the board and ban anyone that didnt like it. And I dont have to label each thread as an educational seminar.

Hopefully this got everyone thinking and we can collectively figure a way back into profitability.

I leave you with this Xbiz article as a parting gift.

RedTube Wants to Start Serving Subpoenas After Email Threat (http://www.xbiz.com/news/117582)

[EmporerEJ]

Giving the house away is not some new hot business model. Sorry its just keeps diluting the value of porn. The problem is most who became successful on the net weren't brilliant but lucky. From the whole affiliate model, instead lets make a better product that people will want to sell and will convert.It was lets give them $100 a sign up.It was like a ponzi scheme that could only be sustained if the sign up numbers were high. They started to tank so then its lets bang the credit card and its because the affiliates want so much.If this was truly a smart industry when the economy slowed down. All free stuff should of been pulled back dramatically to make the value go up. But no its now give away full scenes on the hope they may buy. It all has a air of desperation to it. It's like from Casino "We had the world by the balls and we fucked it all up "
This statement has nothing to do with Far-L. Its all very short term and its sad.

Not sure why you quoted me......
Are you giving an example of people "crying?"

(BTW-I participated in NONE of that crap. We don't do membership sites, free content giveaways, etc....)

[tony404]

Not sure why you quoted me......
Are you giving an example of people "crying?"

(BTW-I participated in NONE of that crap. We don't do membership sites, free content giveaways, etc....)

Your statement reminded me of that adapt or die mantra that turns my stomach.

[EmporerEJ]

Your statement reminded me of that adapt or die mantra that turns my stomach.

Ahhh, well yea.
That's a shame. Unfortunately, that seems to be the way it is.
The world doesn't work on a group hug.

[Far-L]

rhetorical - apology accepted. For the record, I was not and am not angry. Angry would sound more like "fuck you" for example... like, ahem, you... but which I never stooped to even though I feel you and Toby were very personal in your attacks on me directly. You should know from our old days of piss and glory on AM that I don't get angry and don't hold grudges in board warrior sparring.

Toby - I don't think I am the one wearing blinders or rose colored glasses and I could make a case that you are but it would really serve no purpose, would it? You have your position and I have mine. We don't do business with each other or compete in our niches. Your advice about hosted flv is sound but already something we are doing but thanks for mentioning it nonetheless.

Tony404 - I agree that some other practices have been far more destructive to customer trust and satisfaction, but on a positive note... we often hear from our customers that they are finally happy to find a site that doesn't treat them like others have and delivers more than what is promised with out viruses, bad billing, etc. These are the same customers that sometimes stay with us for years. Maybe I should be thanking all those assholes that pushed these tired of all the bullshit surfers into our arms?

Finally, for the record, we don't put up longer than 5 minute branded clips on Pornhub. They take down anything that is up without our branding. They get some content. We get some decent traffic. That is all there is to it. I can't be the police for other people's content. Sorry to sound calloused but I really don't care which of my competitor's sites go out of business because they gave away all their stuff. I consider that doing us a favor.

There are plenty of things that people can get easily for free but which they still choose to pay for. Remember, sex is after all free, so why do people still pay for it and why is selling it still referred to as the oldest profession?

[Far-L]

I expected the thread to be heated. And I also figured noone here would get down to making threats against the other... just a have a sitdown.

Most of us work with this all day everyday so its an important issue and always a lot of emotion involved when your talking about the way people make a living. Especially during a time when several have the potential to go bust.

This isnt GFY. I didnt allow traffic junkies to skin the board and ban anyone that didnt like it. And I dont have to label each thread as an educational seminar.

Hopefully this got everyone thinking and we can collectively figure a way back into profitability.

I leave you with this Xbiz article as a parting gift.

RedTube Wants to Start Serving Subpoenas After Email Threat (http://www.xbiz.com/news/117582)

How moronic. Don't those idiots know that doing something like that will do more harm than good? Let the lawsuits run their course.

[tony404]

rhetorical - apology accepted. For the record, I was not and am not angry. Angry would sound more like "fuck you" for example... like, ahem, you... but which I never stooped to even though I feel you and Toby were very personal in your attacks on me directly. You should know from our old days of piss and glory on AM that I don't get angry and don't hold grudges in board warrior sparring.

Toby - I don't think I am the one wearing blinders or rose colored glasses and I could make a case that you are but it would really serve no purpose, would it? You have your position and I have mine. We don't do business with each other or compete in our niches. Your advice about hosted flv is sound but already something we are doing but thanks for mentioning it nonetheless.

Tony404 - I agree that some other practices have been far more destructive to customer trust and satisfaction, but on a positive note... we often hear from our customers that they are finally happy to find a site that doesn't treat them like others have and delivers more than what is promised with out viruses, bad billing, etc. These are the same customers that sometimes stay with us for years. Maybe I should be thanking all those assholes that pushed these tired of all the bullshit surfers into our arms?

Finally, for the record, we don't put up longer than 5 minute branded clips on Pornhub. They take down anything that is up without our branding. They get some content. We get some decent traffic. That is all there is to it. I can't be the police for other people's content. Sorry to sound calloused but I really don't care which of my competitor's sites go out of business because they gave away all their stuff. I consider that doing us a favor.

There are plenty of things that people can get easily for free but which they still choose to pay for. Remember, sex is after all free, so why do people still pay for it and why is selling it still referred to as the oldest profession?


We get the same thing.When I worked for Mercedes Benz they drummed into your head without the customer we are nothing. People forget that. We go out of our way for our customers, alot of them cancel thru us. We always ask why are you canceling and take the things to heart on what we can do better. Also if the reason was I lost my job or my hours were cut or im losing my home. We cancel them and also give them a month free and say thank you for being a customer. Many come back and join again and again.

[Far-L]

Now... unless anyone wants to still address the tube issues... let's return to our previously scheduled program...

I remember when Lightspeed's Tawnee Stone ruled the world of "solo girl" sites and she really was 18... well... closer to 18... within a decade of 18 shall we say.

[DannyCox]

I remember when this new little site called Persian Kitty asked us for a link exchange! :okthumb:

[Far-L]

I remember when this new little site called Persian Kitty asked us for a link exchange! :okthumb:

Yes, about the same time Carol was setting the standard for amateur sites that is still unmatched to this day... ;-)

[gonzo]

I remember when this new little site called Persian Kitty asked us for a link exchange! :okthumb:

MikeAi and Persian Kitty... now those are 2 folks along with Green guy that proved how much money you can make with an index site.

[Far-L]

MikeAi and Persian Kitty... now those are 2 folks along with Green guy that proved how much money you can make with an index site.

Whatever happened to MikeAI?

[gonzo]

Whatever happened to MikeAI?

Mike is still around. I speak to him and Serge frequently.

Mike sold Oprano to me with Serge and he sold Purecash to WEG who promptly tanked it before it got out the gate.

[Far-L]

Trivia question....


What was the first great billing company blowout?

[RawAlex]

Trivia question....


What was the first great billing company blowout?


Before DMR? ;)

[gonzo]

Trivia question....


What was the first great billing company blowout?

I can tell you who the first large 3rd party biller was.

[Far-L]

Before DMR? ;)

That is what I had as the answer...

Funny story about that time...

After the original Player's Ball there was an after party up in one of the suites and we had a live sex show going on... which somehow I found myself in the middle of at one point. (Don't ask me how that happens... just when I thought I was out... they pulllllllll me back in). In the room, J$tyles, Sweet T, and Oystein were all having a conversation about the very recent implosion of DMR and getting into some interesting details. Little did they know, as they had never met me before, that not only was I a professional porn dude but also a super secret agent scooping on everything they said as I jam-a-lam-a-ding-donged away on the bed. Just call me Bond, Jimmy Bond.

Opened my eyes about some stuff that people always suspect but never have the insider track to know for sure.

[gonzo]

I can tell you who the first large 3rd party biller was.

And no it wasnt CCBill or Ibill or Epoch.

[Hell Puppy]

And no it wasnt CCBill or Ibill or Epoch.

Teleflora, believe it or not.

[RawAlex]

That is what I had as the answer...

Funny story about that time...

After the original Player's Ball there was an after party up in one of the suites and we had a live sex show going on... which somehow I found myself in the middle of at one point. (Don't ask me how that happens... just when I thought I was out... they pulllllllll me back in). In the room, J$tyles, Sweet T, and Oystein were all having a conversation about the very recent implosion of DMR and getting into some interesting details. Little did they know, as they had never met me before, that not only was I a professional porn dude but also a super secret agent scooping on everything they said as I jam-a-lam-a-ding-donged away on the bed. Just call me Bond, Jimmy Bond.

Opened my eyes about some stuff that people always suspect but never have the insider track to know for sure.

I still have a web800 jacket somewhere.

[Far-L]

I still have a web800 jacket somewhere.

who here is willing to admit they grabbed a cum towel from Camz?

[RawAlex]

who here is willing to admit they grabbed a cum towel from Camz?

I used it to check oil on my car for while.

[EmporerEJ]

who here is willing to admit they grabbed a cum towel from Camz?

Still have mine somewheres.....

[gonzo]

who here is willing to admit they grabbed a cum towel from Camz?

I used mine at the bukkake Sat night.

[gonzo]

hopefully that Pink Visual lawsuit will make it clear for you, me, and everyone else that has a dog in this fight.



You know that going the full ride to a court case is as likely as Phil Collins wrestling the Ultimate Warrior

qs0pyWCNEIY&NR

[Far-L]

You know that going the full ride to a court case is as likely as Phil Collins wrestling the Ultimate Warrior

qs0pyWCNEIY&NR

They were one of the first to jump out of the Defense Group in the Acacia matter and sign a licensing deal... Looks great at first looking like heroes of the industry, making press, but the true heroes are those that will go the distance, though they are hardly ever recognized for it.

[gonzo]

They were one of the first to jump out of the Defense Group in the Acacia matter and sign a licensing deal... Looks great at first looking like heroes of the industry, making press, but the true heroes are those that will go the distance, though they are hardly ever recognized for it.

Ill also remind everyone that they sold Yappo out to the same fuckers that own Xtube brokered by the assclown supremeus Bob Rice.

And I see Kristin over on GFY talking about prechecked cross sales as if Top Bucks is some hero of the surfer when they had at least 2 prechecked on the Topbucks sites the last time I looked.

The love that media spin!