Are Trade Shows a thing of the past?

[softball]

JFK started a thread at the zoo about the future of trade shows. I am wondering if they are really necessary or just a hangover...pun intended...from a previous decade?
I have been to broadcasting trade shows in the past and they have always had new cameras, new standards, new toys to play with. A peek into the future. It seems that Porn shows all have the same "seminars" and always seem to be bragging about business being done. Its a monotonous litany. "Mainstream" trade shows talk less about business being done, because it just is. Stuff gets sold. Orders for new toys get taken and so on. This business has stuffed itself and the trade shows never had the acumen to peek into the future and help forge a path or change a direction or even really prepare anyone to cope with this cataclysmic change. It seems that they (the shows) never had any vision beyond the best blow job award or titties to touch.
So where is/was the value?

[Toby]

Adult trade shows need to grow up and actually get more focused on business.

[gonzo]

JFK started a thread at the zoo about the future of trade shows. I am wondering if they are really necessary or just a hangover...pun intended...from a previous decade?
I have been to broadcasting trade shows in the past and they have always had new cameras, new standards, new toys to play with. A peek into the future. It seems that Porn shows all have the same "seminars" and always seem to be bragging about business being done. Its a monotonous litany. "Mainstream" trade shows talk less about business being done, because it just is. Stuff gets sold. Orders for new toys get taken and so on. This business has stuffed itself and the trade shows never had the acumen to peek into the future and help forge a path or change a direction or even really prepare anyone to cope with this cataclysmic change. It seems that they (the shows) never had any vision beyond the best blow job award or titties to touch.
So where is/was the value?

That thread is hilarious - in my opinion.
Large companies telling them to produce some ROI or they wont be there next year are ignored.

Im not sure which was more amusing... Cocaine Chris's ass kissing and glib ignorance of the business [did he really think that everyone bought he was a big baller in the unsold Presidential Suite?] or Helmys sheer arrogance and disdain for everyone in the thread - I guess he was mad no one was telling him early what kind of music they want to hear at the pool....

All these shows have a thin chance of remaining as they are. Large mainstream shows like InterOp and Comdex were wiped from the face of the earth - what makes you think either of these ass clowns can do what Interface couldnt? Hell when you have to move to a new office cuz you cant pay the rent on the old place is very telling.

[softball]

Its all about ROI. For the cost of one of these shows, I can fly to Europe, have a great holiday, hook up with some local talent, take some photo sets and videos that will earn me money, write the whole thing off and have tons of "fun". And if I want lots of boobies, Europe is full of fun clubs that you are guaranteed to get drunk AND laid.

Having said that, I did have a good time at LAJ's show and I did do some business....

[Cleo]

This last show was so small that I didn't even bothering going the last day.

The best part of the show for me was the private get together at Dave & Busters which wasn't part of the show.

It's kind of funny that I drove down to the hotel a day early so that I wouldn't have to stand in a long line to get my show pass since the entire show I never saw more then a handful of people in line.

While it was nice meeting some people in person there was nothing about the show that would have made it worth the cost if I wasn't a local that didn't have to stay in the hotel with no travel expenses. I doubt I will be going next year, if there even is one, and I stopped traveling to out of town shows a few years ago.

My personal opinion is that the internet has all but killed trade shows unless it is a product that people need to see in person and pornstars and dildos aren't a product that needs to be seen in person.

[softball]

My personal opinion is that the internet has all but killed trade shows unless it is a product that people need to see in person and pornstars and dildos aren't a product that needs to be seen in person.:-pearl:

[gonzo]

This last show was so small that I didn't even bothering going the last day.

The best part of the show for me was the private get together at Dave & Busters which wasn't part of the show.

It's kind of funny that I drove down to the hotel a day early so that I wouldn't have to stand in a long line to get my show pass since the entire show I never saw more then a handful of people in line.

While it was nice meeting some people in person there was nothing about the show that would have made it worth the cost if I wasn't a local that didn't have to stay in the hotel with no travel expenses. I doubt I will be going next year, if there even is one, and I stopped traveling to out of town shows a few years ago.

My personal opinion is that the internet has all but killed trade shows unless it is a product that people need to see in person and pornstars and dildos aren't a product that needs to be seen in person.

Finally someone calls it the way it was and you didnt even brag about how many events youve sponsored in the past.

They all want new blood but nobody wants to do what it will take to bring that back in the door especially in Florida. that show was a haven for every girl starting a site on the web to meet up and do shoots. Once they jacked the price to 3 bills that ended all of that.

I can understand why the hotel is on lockdown after I was there with JoeSho one year and this local was beating us up for drugs and ass for about an hour.

Joe wouldnt give him any booty so the guy asked him to buy him drinks instead...they locked the hotel down the very next year. Well except for the hookers that get in on the mysterious "talent" pass that you never see advertised.

[Toby]

There ARE some products that would be nice to see in person. Not products that we sell, but products that we use. Cameras, archive storage and backup systems, CMS software, etc. I'm just not sure vendors would be interested in putting up a booth or sending a rep to give a presentation. Tip of the hat to Tony404 for this idea.

[softball]

I think it is very simple. They don't have the traffic AND they don't have the content. A recipe for disaster. Plain as the nose on your face.

[RawAlex]

I have to say this... I read the first page of the thread at the zoo, and at the bottom of the 1st page was the punchline: The guy spewing the most in the thread (Shap) rarely if ever attends shows.

I can't read any further, my eyes are watering from the laughter.

[Toby]

There are a few gems in that thread, in terms of insight and/or suggestions, but for the most part they're getting no play from those that need to be paying attention.

I have to give kudos to Jay and Connor, not so much for what they had to say, but for what they chose not to say in response to Helmy.

[gonzo]

There are a few gems in that thread, in terms of insight and/or suggestions, but for the most part they're getting no play from those that need to be paying attention.

I have to give kudos to Jay and Connor, not so much for what they had to say, but for what they chose not to say in response to Helmy.
They withheld a rocking playlist for the pool music?

[Toby]

They withheld a rocking playlist for the pool music?

Hehe, if it we're only so simple.

Jay down-played the whole situation, so most probably missed it. For those that weren't watching closely...

Early last Sept Helmy starts a drama thread on GFY, the gist of which is he's pissed about comments that Connor made about XBIZ Vegas moving their dates from July to a week prior to the already announced June dates for Cybernet Expo.

Supposedly this date change was necessary due to the heat in July in Vegas. But the poll that XBIZ itself ran only 28 out of 48 said to move it. Also, early June isn't all that much cooler than early July in Vegas.

I think this was all really just posturing on Helmy's part to move the XBIZ show ahead of Cybernet on the Calendar. Jay and Connor simply moved their dates to the end of June.

Looking at the numbers after the fact, Cybernet had better attendance than in 2008 while attendance at XBIZ Vegas was an embarrasment.

Karma is a biatch.

[softball]

Supposedly this date change was necessary due to the heat in July in Vegas.
I guess this was a surprise to all involved. Blame global warming.

[Hell Puppy]

There ARE some products that would be nice to see in person. Not products that we sell, but products that we use. Cameras, archive storage and backup systems, CMS software, etc. I'm just not sure vendors would be interested in putting up a booth or sending a rep to give a presentation. Tip of the hat to Tony404 for this idea.

interesting thing here is this HAS been done a couple of times, but never once incorporated into the show itself.

TMM did it when NATS was new.

they had a seminar room away from the show floor. they had techies who could actually answer questions demoing it live right there on the big screen. it was well attended, and I have no doubt generated some of their early sales.

hell, i was in attendance and i bought it. you'd NEVER EVER get a chance to sell me like that with a booth bunny on the show floor. i dont like any sort of hard sell. but sit my in a room with a group of people and teach me something, and you get my undivided attention for an hour or so as long as your product is compelling.

[Hell Puppy]

I have to say this... I read the first page of the thread at the zoo, and at the bottom of the 1st page was the punchline: The guy spewing the most in the thread (Shap) rarely if ever attends shows.

I can't read any further, my eyes are watering from the laughter.

i guess the zoo is good for entertainment.

but how can you put any value in 99% of the words uttered over there when the majority of the posts are people just wanting to get their post count up and sigs viewed?

i pretty much only show up over there for the "entertainment" threads. sounds like i might actually have to read this one...ugh.

[gonzo]

I added a little editorial on this topic
http://oprano.com/blog/?p=15

[JFK]

I have to say this... I read the first page of the thread at the zoo, and at the bottom of the 1st page was the punchline: The guy spewing the most in the thread (Shap) rarely if ever attends shows.

I can't read any further, my eyes are watering from the laughter.

Alex, you do need to read further, there are some good suggestions in the following pages, we shall see if anyone will take them seriously, or was this just another excercise in futility as Sly has stated;)

btw Gonzo, Nice one:okthumb:
And the show organizers cant be too happy with those that avoid paying sponsorship dollars by hosting events in their room under the guise of breakfast and bongs

[TheEnforcer]

Great discussion going on... Haven't been to a show in a few years but when I went to the shows a few eyars ago they were productive. I agree though that the adulty biz in general, not just shows, has lagged WAY behind mainstream in terms of innovation...

[Hell Puppy]

Interesting little side show over there...some good discussion, but overall I think there's a good demonstration of how little most people understand about how trade shows really work.

The viewing angles fascinate me...

From the attendees point of view there's a pretty strong agreement that:

1) There are too many shows, they'd rather see a smaller number of larger more well attended shows than a dozen or more small-ish shows.

2) ROI and costs are now important, cheaper badges, cheaper venues, cheaper destinations are all very desirable.

3) The formats of the shows and content of seminars are "same old same old" and return little if any value unless you're a noob.

Meanwhile, the show producers we've heard from:

AVNChris -- Same thing we've heard from all of his predecessors. They claim they want the feedback, then they do same shit. He's clearly thinking Vegas/Miami rotation as usual. As long as they make money, or as long as that contract with the Diplomat lasts, nothing is changing.

Helmy -- Not surprisingly, it seems Helmy isn't exactly open to criticism. He left the thread early on.

LAJ and Connor -- These guys are the only ones who've really tried to consistently tweak their format to provide value and go after venues that are affordable to keep costs down. Their fellow show promoters clearly aren't out to do 'em any favors as evidenced by moving dates of Xbiz summer to be in front of 'em and on top of 'em. So these guys are taking the position of they'll continue to just quietly do their own thing. I respect that.

Sponsor point of view....

Surprisingly few big name sponsors chiming in....and these guys are who really dictate which shows live and die. Pretty clear the employees of these companies are desperate for the shows to continue. They insist we cant afford to let any of them die. This is silly, free market WILL correct the problem of more supply than demand every time. But I see where they're coming from since less shows means potentially less employees needed by these companies to support said shows.

[Hell Puppy]

I added a little editorial on this topic
http://oprano.com/blog/?p=15

Largely on the mark, but I think you missed some origins...

The shows really didn't start out as "party shows". The origins are really with two shows:

1) IA2000 is what we now know as Internext. It started out as an audiotext show. It evolved into an adult internet show partially as a natural progression of that industry. In fact, many of the original big players in the business, such as CE, have their origins in the 900 biz.

2) Adultdex. Sharpie could comment more here, but basically you put 150-200K geeks in Vegas for Comdex, they are virtually all porn consumers, so it's a natural to setup a consumer oriented porn show somewhere in town at the same time and that's what Faye did. It too evolved to the web focus and more of a B2B show as Comdex died, spanwing what we know as Cybernet Expo.

Both of these shows had focus, had a purpose for being. I attended the first web oriented version of IA2000 back in 97-98 at the Monte Carlo. That was when we really learned who was who, discovered a lot of new programs, and bought a ton of content. At that time, the show saved me weeks of research on the tools I needed to launch pay sites, etc. Epoch and ccBill were just coming into being. at this time. DMR was the big processor then...I learned enough at that show to know not to use them. ;)

Adultdex was a chance to do consumer marketing with a captive audience.

But now, ask yourself what exactly is the purpose of many of these shows?

There isn't one other than to get everyone together to see friends, party a bit on sponsor tab and make money for the show producer. This model dies as soon as people have to watch ROI...and we're there.

[Toby]

Yeah, it's become painfully obvious as that thread has wound down that the issues that really need to be addressed won't be. Some of the minor suggestions will probably get incorporated piecemeal across several of the shows, but the thinning of the herd is going to have to happen the hard way.

There's an opportunity here, for someone willing to run a show at a deficit for a couple of years to get themselves established. Put together a show that truly does provide ROI for show sponsors, programs, vendors AND affiliates. Do it right and both AVN and XBIZ will be the ones crying the downsize blues.

[DannyCox]

I attended the first web oriented version of IA2000 back in 97-98 at the Monte Carlo.

The first IA2000 show that included the Adult Internet was in Orlando in October of 1996. I think there were maybe 40 of us there and since the show floor was only geared toward Audiotext, we all mainly hung out in the lobby bar. That was the beginning of many of the initial large companies as real networking was being done.

By the next year, in October 1997, the webbies had half the show floor and the big parties got their start. JoeE threw a big party with strippers in the hotel ballroom, and then when it came time to pay, his credit card was refused and the hotel wouldn't take his check. Pushrod and I had to bail him out of that one ;)

We went to all the early shows, and stopped in 2002 just because it wasn't worth the money anymore. I could get more business done on the phone than I ever could at a tradeshow. We used to have our booth at every show, but by 2002 it was so bad with more people coming to our booth to try and sell us crap than people who were actually interested in what we had to offer, that we stopped that. Complaining to AVN about the people walking around, leaving flyers on your tables, and grabbing people at your booth, just fell on deaf ears.

I've easily spent well over a quarter of a million dollars at tradeshows, from having booths, seminars and sponsorships. There was no ROI on that! With the tradeshow operators allowing basic attendees to walk the show floor, hawking their crap, it just didn't make sense to spend money on things anymore. Almost all "real" tradeshows have a policy in place where no one other than actual exhibitors/sponsors can promote on premises. By turning a blind eye, the tradeshow operators have only hurt themselves and the business.

After 2002, we were only at one other show, which was summer Internext in 2004. That was the biggest waste of my time! Farrell and I put on the Amateur Roundtable seminars, and even there, we had people trying to promote their programs.

I have all sorts of how rants, but I'll stop now ;)

[Electra]

Well I haven't been to a show for a while. I would like to start going again..maybe just do one a year...but I also read JFK's thread and now I am totally confused as to what shows are worth the time and effort. I think I need to be lured. LOL

[RawAlex]

Hell Pussy, I still have a DMR / Web800 jacket I got at that show, freaking thing is indestructible. Too bad DMR blew up so fast (and cost most of us a ton of money).

Adultdex was exactly a consumer show. In the last couple of years, a webmaster component was added mostly because enough webmasters were in town for it. But on the retail side the show really suffered, as Comdex died off, Adultdex did as well. Effectively, the AEE show does the same thing in January, sucking up to a show full of geeks :)

Toby, I think the problem is that the adult industry isn't aligned to shows. There are no product cycles, there is no real promotion anymore (just raise the payouts, woohoo!). Also, the video porn people don't want to deal with online people still to this day, treating us as 9th class citizens and pretty much peeing on everything we do. Some of them think that the web people have killed the porn business completely (and they wouldn't be wrong). So we can't even get the large part of the porn world to be part of a show.

I thnk that AVN and XBIZ are both already crying. It isn't clear that there is a real replacement that would bring back ROI for online companies.

[gonzo]

[quote=DannyCox;829260
After 2002, we were only at one other show, which was summer Internext in 2004. That was the biggest waste of my time! Farrell and I put on the Amateur Roundtable seminars, and even there, we had people trying to promote their programs.
[/quote]
FWIW Danny I spent the day in that Roundtable and it was the most free flow of information that was useful that Ive ever seen at any show. Farrel did a goo job of moderating it but yes there were too many people trolling around with their own agenda.

Thank you for sponsoring it as it was one of the most enjoyable days Ive ever spent at any show. And yes I spent damn near all day in there.

I think this is a great idea to get a show started to interest new people. Combine that with a the old content shoots we used to have where you can actually allow affiliates in to shoot some original conent to poromote programs and I think you have a winning formula. This was done also and I spent an entire day of Webmaster Access in Atlanta with Cory at this shoot. Another enjoyable day.

Gives a guy a few ideas ya know . . .

[gonzo]

I thnk that AVN and XBIZ are both already crying. It isn't clear that there is a real replacement that would bring back ROI for online companies.
It is what it is Alex... but you also bring up another idea to make it succesful. I know everyone is looking for some ROI but lets face it... its a gahtering for people in this biz to socialize and see friends. Add some ROI into that and you got a winner.

[Toby]

It is what it is Alex... but you also bring up another idea to make it succesful. I know everyone is looking for some ROI but lets face it... its a gahtering for people in this biz to socialize and see friends. Add some ROI into that and you got a winner.
IMO, among current shows, Cybernet Expo is doing the best job of providing that balance and I do know that both Jay and Connor were paying attention to what the masses were saying in that thread at the zoo.

It's difficult to be all things to all people, and I think perhaps Cybernet tries a bit too hard to be that at times.

Did any other US/Canada shows have an increase in attendance over 2008?

[softball]

People pay to learn new things. They will show up if you can provide new tools of the trade demos. Something that will give them a competitive edge. I still say shows need to provide a glimpse into the future, not the past. When we stories and dick swinging won't provide direction and ultmately profit.

[Toby]

People pay to learn new things.:-pearl:

As an example... I maintain the website for a paralegal trade organization. Their annual conference is in October and just a couple of weeks ago I finished updating the online registration. Over two days there are five workshop sessions, with a choice of four different workshops during each session. Attendees must specify at the time they register which one of the four workshops they will attend during each of the five sessions. Registration Fee is $650 and all it includes besides the workshops is breakfast buffet both mornings and closing party on the second evening. Hotel, lunch, dinner, etc. is all extra.

That's a bit extreme for this biz, but replace the existing seminar "panels" with an individual doing a presentation on a specific subject. That would force a prepared presentation, and be far more likely to be informative. Two or three each day, with two running at a time. Pair them up to be aimed at different segments of attendees. Yes you'll likely have to pay these people to do presentations, but just a few additional attendees per speaker due to the quality presentations would more than cover that cost.

[softball]

Who in the straight world earns out of porn and would be willing to send reps? That would be a good first step. Trade organizations like make up artists. Camera manufacturers or sellers. Software providers that need exposure.
The problem is that the biz is certainly shrinking. Not necessarily in the dollar volume, but those who provide the products and services. I think these shows missed their opportuinty years ago when it was rockin and rollin and full of wide eyed kids with money to spend.
Problem is, and I have said it before, they weren't real business people and still aren't. Pornography was just a pot of gold that took no depth to mine it. Today you have to dig for what you get. Just like real bidness and many are failing. Dead men walking.

[tony404]

Ive been to two shows webmaster access 2004 and the atl forum.I got turned off at WA sat in seminars heard bulllshit like there are no new ideas for content. If you buy a gallery spot from me, I have no idea how it would do its your problem as all the bros chuckled. And the new ceo of ibill shook my hand thanked me for my loyality and told me how rock solid they were.
I think regional get togethers will be the future, money isnt flowing as easy so getting raped on costs at a show isnt a oh well fuck it anymore.
I find I come up with ideas when I have coffee or dinner with someone. When Jace and I did get togethers at my loft with no free booze. They were business like and I actually did some business.

[MikeSouth]

when this biz got into bed with the porn valley crowd...avn buying the internet shows and all that...it was doomed I was telling people look what porn valley has done...whored out cheap product, oversaturated the market and they are now about to see a serious downturn... there is a coming shakeout.

Nobody listened and porn valley used us to delay the shakeout all the while we adopted thier model and viola

Here we are.

The chickens have come home to roost

[softball]

when this biz got into bed with the porn valley crowd...avn buying the internet shows and all that...it was doomed I was telling people look what porn valley has done...whored out cheap product, oversaturated the market and they are now about to see a serious downturn... there is a coming shakeout.

Nobody listened and porn valley used us to delay the shakeout all the while we adopted thier model and viola

Here we are.

The chickens have come home to roost

I have been pounding this drum since Amateurmasters and got shit on from great heights. Being a wierd little website that obviously couldn't earn a living, I was doomed. Well, he who laughs last....etc. etc.
I hate to see this because it effects me as well, but on the other hand I do kind of feel vindicated when I have watched a lot of old school high rollers crash and burn.
The whole Netpond crowd is the latest of the rip off merchants...the "nice guys"...the Bros to old school not in a gfy kind of way....to go down leaving a trail of destruction. And what is unbelievable, is the silence from old school business people. I just don't get it.
This is a major rip off and they pulled it off...smooth as silk. The long con works.

[tony404]

one of the best quotes on gfy on the subject and so true :

Originally Posted by Atticus
Only in this industry would people welcome the consolidation of choices. Nobody needs to have a "sit down" regarding the state of industry trade shows. It's a free market and if there are more shows than the market will bear, then some will die off. If all of the current shows continue to offer a decent ROI for sponsors, organizers and attendees then they will remain. If, as an attendee, you feel a show isnt worth your time, then dont go. If enough people feel likewise you'll see the show cancelled.

Combining the two biggest shows of the Summer into 1 isnt going to solve anything. Without competition it will just end up raising sponsorship, badge and hotel pricing.

If you really wanted to work together for the "benefit of the industry" how about setting up a universal advertising guideline and not accept ads from companies that utilize practices that harm the industry as a whole, ie: hidden pre check cross sales, hiding behind DMCA's, using stolen content etc.

Just saying...

[Hell Puppy]

You guys have really touched on a couple of key truths that I haven't seen in that other thread as of last time I checked it...

One, the industry is still filled with people with no real business experience....or business ethics for that matter. The other is letting porn valley "lead" us is stupid. What in the hell do they know about the web? Or running a trade show for that matter.

Meanwhile, "Web 2.0" shows and seminars around SEO, affiliates, blogs, etc are blowing past us in size. I would also argue that they are now blowing past us in innovation where we used to always lead simply because we have one of the most in demand products on the web.

Also, this business is totally cut throat. The industry rips off customers and each other. There's very little overall cooperation.

This makes doing something like providing seminars or panels with true value a tough sell. Who wants to tell the bro's your secrets only to have them replicated and exploited to the point no one can make a buck with them?

The answer is B2B and education on tools and indeed teaching those who WANT to learn how to be businessmen instead of basement warriors how to do so. Some good topics have been thrown out for workshops. I'd add business 101. Think about topics like benefits of incorporation, how to manage your taxes, how to get health insurance, how to setup a SEP-IRA, etc? Although most of those are U.S. specific..

There's opportunity for a new entity that focuses on trade shows or does them well in a related industry to step in and grab attendees and sponsors alike. Provide the ROI, protect the sponsors, etc. It would take deep pockets to start, but the industry is ripe for something like this. I'd love to see one of the shows bought out by totally new blood.

[softball]

This industry is capitalism in its purest form. There is no co opeeration. Never will be. There is no regulation. Never will be. There is no industry association to set guidelines. Never will be.
The whinging and whining has only started since people realized that this business is not recession proof and the vultures jumped in and seized the opportunities available.
Live by the sword. Die by the sword. Mostly trade shows never evolved into real trade shows like real world shows and are now paying the price.

[tony404]

This industry is capitalism in its purest form. There is no co opeeration. Never will be. There is no regulation. Never will be. There is no industry association to set guidelines. Never will be.
The whinging and whining has only started since people realized that this business is not recession proof and the vultures jumped in and seized the opportunities available.
Live by the sword. Die by the sword. Mostly trade shows never evolved into real trade shows like real world shows and are now paying the price.

oh eventually there will be regulation and when it finally does come around its going to hurt. I agree with Hellpuppy like T having an accountant speak and pay him to speak so its not a big ad for his/her services. The reason most seminars suck is they are cheap paying for those.

[Hell Puppy]

oh eventually there will be regulation and when it finally does come around its going to hurt. I agree with Hellpuppy like T having an accountant speak and pay him to speak so its not a big ad for his/her services. The reason most seminars suck is they are cheap paying for those.

The only area where regulation can really be applied is at the processing level. Anything else can be worked around because of how open the internet is.

I dont know that voluntary cooperation or organization will every happen.

The best possible thing that could happen is for the cost of entry to go way up.

[RawAlex]

Actually, the price of admission did go up, (the visa fees) and all that happened was the amateurs got chased out of the business and the scammers paid the fee and kept going.

Raise the price of admission, you actually make it easier for the scammers, as they may be the only game left in town.

[Hell Puppy]

Actually, the price of admission did go up, (the visa fees) and all that happened was the amateurs got chased out of the business and the scammers paid the fee and kept going.

Raise the price of admission, you actually make it easier for the scammers, as they may be the only game left in town.

$400 a year isn't exactly the type of bump I had in mind...

That $400 a year has been more than offset in drops in hosting fees.

[miz_wright]

For me, and the work that I do, there can be great value in a show from a networking perspective. I may get new business, but the relationships that come home with me from a show are something I won't get via ICQ - and I take a long-view approach, typically. I would really like to see things like round-robin networking dinners, or non-industry speakers (because we need people to speak who aren't focused on pimping a program or safeguarding their secrets), et cetera.

Shows are incredibly valuable to me from the perspective of the job I do, and while it's certainly true everyone needs to blow off steam sometimes, there are many opportunities to make the shows a stronger opportunity for business than they are currently.

[RawAlex]

$400 a year isn't exactly the type of bump I had in mind...

That $400 a year has been more than offset in drops in hosting fees.

No, but it was indication enough that increased fees / costs seem to cull mostly the honest ones (who didn't make an ass load of money off the last scam) and leave the scammers to run the roost.

You know, when a company buys out about a half a dozen programs, and rather than integrating them into a great huge program, they instead keep them all seperate in little seperate companies each with it's own processing and it's own name for the cross sales, you sort of can see what is going on. Many of the "playahs" at this year's show made their money on this sort of thing in 2008 and 2009. So honest people like you and me have less reason to go to a show, because we ain't going to take the free drink and declare them as "stand up guys".

Even a $5000 fee wouldn't change anything for them, but it would take out most of the remaining amateur sites in one shot.

[LAJ]

This is a great thread. And while I do appreciate the kudos... I also appreciate the criticism of trade shows in general and am listening.

It's quite refreshing when the norm is a group of people who "get it" as opposed to the norm being people spouting off who don't.

I'm going to put this out there regarding free badges. There is no way we are going to give everyone free admittance to Cybernet Expo and it just slays me who those who don't put together trade shows or attend one every two years are out there telling us to do it.

1. Free badges bring in riff raff and unqualified attendees
2. Free badges cheapen the trade deals I have in place as well as sponsor packages. Why should Joe Schmoe get to come to the show for free when Oprano is out there actively promoting Cybernet Expo or attorney Eric Bernstein is paying for a sponsorship so that everyone can have coffee, juice or water on their way into the seminars every morning?
3. Our badges are cheap to begin with ... this year we charged $75 all inclusive four months out from the show and then ran a $99 special for the next two months after that. People bitch all the time about tube sites killing the adult pay site model and that people need to pay for their porn. Well... the same could be said about trade shows giving it away for free as well for the purpose of traffic and/or falsely inflating their numbers.
4. This ties in with #3... I'm not looking for a "aww you poor boy" here... but lets face it. Connor and I bust our asses for Cybernet Expo and we need to be able to make just a LITTLE bit of money somehow for our 6 months plus of efforts. Almost all of the sponsorship money we make goes directly into the show... meeting space, hotel expenses, beverages, and a zillion other nickel and dime things... it adds up big time.

[softball]

This is a great thread. And while I do appreciate the kudos... I also appreciate the criticism of trade shows in general and am listening.

It's quite refreshing when the norm is a group of people who "get it" as opposed to the norm being people spouting off who don't.

I'm going to put this out there regarding free badges. There is no way we are going to give everyone free admittance to Cybernet Expo and it just slays me who those who don't put together trade shows or attend one every two years are out there telling us to do it.

1. Free badges bring in riff raff and unqualified attendees
2. Free badges cheapen the trade deals I have in place as well as sponsor packages. Why should Joe Schmoe get to come to the show for free when Oprano is out there actively promoting Cybernet Expo or attorney Eric Bernstein is paying for a sponsorship so that everyone can have coffee, juice or water on their way into the seminars every morning?
3. Our badges are cheap to begin with ... this year we charged $75 all inclusive four months out from the show and then ran a $99 special for the next two months after that. People bitch all the time about tube sites killing the adult pay site model and that people need to pay for their porn. Well... the same could be said about trade shows giving it away for free as well for the purpose of traffic and/or falsely inflating their numbers.
4. This ties in with #3... I'm not looking for a "aww you poor boy" here... but lets face it. Connor and I bust our asses for Cybernet Expo and we need to be able to make just a LITTLE bit of money somehow for our 6 months plus of efforts. Almost all of the sponsorship money we make goes directly into the show... meeting space, hotel expenses, beverages, and a zillion other nickel and dime things... it adds up big time.

Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges.....lol


Seriously, though. I used to attend broadcasting trade shows all the time and I never paid for admission. It was always taken care of by folks like Sony or Ikegami that wanted me to see their latest and greatest. It also worked very well. The last show that I went to, I saw Sony's latest Betacam, and I bought it. It prolly cost them a few bucks for the admission, but the camera cost 62K. I made a ton of money out of that camera and it was a great choice after seeing it and playing with it at the show.
That, to me, should be the end result and purpose of a trade show. We all have to make some money out of our attendance.

[LAJ]

Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges.....lol


Seriously, though. I used to attend broadcasting trade shows all the time and I never paid for admission. It was always taken care of by folks like Sony or Ikegami that wanted me to see their latest and greatest. It also worked very well. The last show that I went to, I saw Sony's latest Betacam, and I bought it. It prolly cost them a few bucks for the admission, but the camera cost 62K. I made a ton of money out of that camera and it was a great choice after seeing it and playing with it at the show.
That, to me, should be the end result and purpose of a trade show. We all have to make some money out of our attendance.

You are talking consumer shows... BIG difference when everyone who attends is the end user vs. everyone attending having something to sell.

[softball]

You are talking consumer shows... BIG difference when everyone who attends is the end user vs. everyone attending having something to sell.
a 62 thousand dollar camera is not exactly a consumer camera. Those shows are also about pitching free lance services and any number of professional contacts are made. Those cameras and other equipment don't pay for themselves. So I respectfully disagree.

[Cleo]

Personally I think $75 for a trade show is a very good price point. Just high enough to keep out the riffraff but cheap enough that buying tickets is no big deal.

My only real complaint about InterNEXT is how expensive it has become and not only the cost of passes. The Diplomat is about the most expensive place it could be held down here. I spent almost $60 just on parking my car and don't even get me started about the price of snacks and drinks. IMO InterNext has all but killed itself with its price point.

[softball]

Personally I think $75 for a trade show is a very good price point. Just high enough to keep out the riffraff but cheap enough that buying tickets is no big deal.

My only real complaint about InterNEXT is how expensive it has become and not only the cost of passes. The Diplomat is about the most expensive place it could be held down here. I spent almost $60 just on parking my car and don't even get me started about the price of snacks and drinks. IMO InterNext has all but killed itself with its price point.

These guys actually believed porn was recession proof and we actually believed we were pimps. A lack of vision is killing InterNext. Those gold chains were ten karat plate.

[Cleo]

I didn't get the incredibly loud 2 Live Crew pool music. It wasn't just that I don't care for Hip Hop. It was so loud that my teeth were vibrating. Talking, as in trying to network, was impossible. I don't know... maybe I've just gotten old but it seems like the music should be kept down to a level that allows people to talk to each other.

[Toby]

Maybe nation-x will pop in and address the music volume issue since it was his program launch party that they were performing at.

The costs for everything at Internext has been out of hand for some time now and probably the biggest reason I quit attending that show. The 'playas' all want someplace nice to go, which is fine, but they can go do their own thing in Curacao or Barcelona or wherever.

There are still opportunities for sponsors to provide free badges without making them free to everyone. Mojohost did just exactly that at Internext. If you signed up in advance to take their data center tour they paid for your show badge.

[gonzo]

I have always promoted the show on this board once I bought it.
Cybernet with its flaws has always been approachable - didnt matter if it was Fay or Jay they have always been reasonable.

Fay Sharp started this show out to be more about the business and less about the music. Granted the locations have been on the cheaper side but the shows in San Diego and Tampa were some of my best networking times.

Seminars were always stuffed full of people taking notes, taping and etc.

Theres usually something there to learn even if its not in a seminar room.
The show has attracted many program owners that do get it and spend a lot of one on one time with affiliates to forge a better working arrangement.

I said it before and was ignored so Ill say it again here so it doesnt get glossed over... you can see the difference in the philosophy of these shows before and after by reading.

You will have Jay out looking for the best topics for a panel and the right people to get on them, while you have Alec trolling for the play list for the music by the pool and all Ive seen out of Chris is "I love you man ... we will see you in the same places at the same time in 2010 ... wanna free ticket?."

In the past Kathee Brewer and MJ were repairing these seminars like with the NATS demo. They both understand this business tried their best. Both are no longer with the company and now as Mike said we have Hirsch wanting to telling us how to build websites. Stick to hiring geniuses like AlienQ - your made for each other.

Now Alec pretty much plays for a grandstand like now where hes inviting Fishbien to come into a public dialog with him. Like was said to me earlier - if he really wanted to get it done they would already be working it out in private.

The free market will sort all of this out soon enough. Right now the main event for many of these shows has been the Porn Poker tour which is now looking for a better ROI. I can recall several nights in Miami in the past when thats the only thing that ws going on.

How will they attract people there coming to hear 2LiveCrew with nothing to do in the evenings?

We did a bit on clusterfuck theater where we called and goofed on the staff of the hotel. they told us that there was a lottery for employees to work there during Internext. Im wondering if that will hold true for next year?

[DannyCox]

In my previous life as an Engineer in Aerospace & Defence, I attended a number of Industry Trade Shows. They were all run basically the same. These shows include the SAMPE show (Society For The Advancement Of Material And Process Engineering), the SME show (Society Of Mechanical Engineers), as well as a couple of other directly related to Aeronautical Engineering for Materials and Processes.

The seminars were not just throw togethers with panels of friends. Six months before a show, there was a "Call For Papers" where people interested in presenting would submit a brief on what they wanted to talk about. Those papers were looked at by a panel of experts, and then short-listed. Those who made the first cut were contacted, and had two months to submit a complete paper on the subject at hand. Those were then gone through, and the final people for the various seminars were selected. I presented a paper at the October 1992 SAMPE Technical Conference entitled "Materials And Process Optimization For Dual-Shell Satellite Antenna Reflectors". I gave a brief on it at the conference and took questions. Everyone had the paper in their hands the day the conference started, so they could go through it and come up with informed questions or comments. All I received for presenting my paper was a free show badge which saved my company about $500.

Real Trade Shows are well thought out affairs, with applicable seminars and show floors that truly cater to those in attendance. They are not about "friends" or the "old boys" networks. They exist to serve the industry, give the suppliers a place to promote applicable wares, and to inform through relevant and proper seminars. And of course, there are cocktail parties put on by the various suppliers. But no one runs around being stupid or getting drunk as everyone there is not only representing themselves but their companies. At a Trade Show, there is no down time, you are always on and always working.

I've never seen a huge party at any of the Trade Shows I've attended in my other industries. There was always a sponsored welcome cocktail party, cocktail parties held by various suppliers in different suites, and a closing cocktail party. That was it for "parties". Dinners were all smaller affairs and meant for work and networking. Suppliers were open to snealing away with you for a beer, but it was still all about business. The thing we knew about Trade Shows was they were there to learn and work, not party. Many guys that were friends would leave in the evening to party it up away from the conference hotel, but no one would ever make an ass of himself amongst his peers. That would kill your career there and then!

I also did a few publishing Trade Shows when I was in university and working for the newspaper. Those were basically the same with applicable show floors and seminars.

That really is the reason I stopped going to shows, they were an embarrassment! If I want to drink and party, I can do that close to home. If I want to travel to party, well, I'll do it as a holiday. To me, a Trade Show is about work and I do try to treat it as such. Our industry shows tend to have totally useless seminars done with no preparation or planning, and given by people without the requisite experience! I've honestly yet to hear anything useful at a show seminar, it's all been about "Buy My Shit!".

[gonzo]

Maybe nation-x will pop in and address the music volume issue since it was his program launch party that they were performing at.


Hes on a cruise and didnt attend Internext either.

[gonzo]

That really is the reason I stopped going to shows, they were an embarrassment! If I want to drink and party, I can do that close to home. If I want to travel to party, well, I'll do it as a holiday. To me, a Trade Show is about work and I do try to treat it as such. Our industry shows tend to have totally useless seminars done with no preparation or planning, and given by people without the requisite experience! I've honestly yet to hear anything useful at a show seminar, it's all been about "Buy My Shit!".
I guess we work different. I know when I attended Comdex or InterOp it was all about work. Not getting drunk to sleep by the ocean or cramming 3 people into one room in order to be able to afford a couple of beers out of the mini bar.

But hey what do I know? Im unemployeed right?

[Mediaguy]

To get back to the question: Are Trade Shows a Thing of the Past?

I don't think they are. But they will have to remodel themselves and drop out of the "more bling is more bucks" attitude that made the Vegas Internext shows something to stay away from.

I didn't get the incredibly loud 2 Live Crew pool music. It wasn't just that I don't care for Hip Hop. It was so loud that my teeth were vibrating. Talking, as in trying to network, was impossible. I don't know... maybe I've just gotten old but it seems like the music should be kept down to a level that allows people to talk to each other.

Has nothing to do with age... I was at that show, and that to me was a complete waste of networking time as well. Big loud boom-boom parties in clubs are the worst example of tradeshow overspending and wastes of time I can think of.

We learned from our own office parties at trade shows by overspending on a split up of space: one for dancing/party and one for talking/networking. Had a big light show and overpriced DJ at the back, and subdued mellow shop-talk room at the front... guess which paid off?

The back room was empty most of the night, but our front room was packed... shows are for schmoozing. You can stay home and be blinded and deafened at a disco for less, if that's what you're into.

But create an atmosphere where disparate people can connect, meet face-to-face often for the first time, network and trade ideas, and you have a success.

The tradeshows will just have to lean down and get back to the business of business if they want to survive, and we'll all profit from that. I myself am looking forward to the newer "old" formats :P

Dos centavos.

[tony404]

also if its business why does there have to be loud parties, excessive drinking and half naked models. Most of us look at naked chicks all day long whether its shooting them or looking on a screen. Its like it doesnt make you cool to have a bunch of paid girls half naked at a show its a waste of time and money. I think you took those things out you would have a much smaller show but a much more serious one.

[RawAlex]

also if its business why does there have to be loud parties, excessive drinking and half naked models. Most of us look at naked chicks all day long whether its shooting them or looking on a screen. Its like it doesnt make you cool to have a bunch of paid girls half naked at a show its a waste of time and money. I think you took those things out you would have a much smaller show but a much more serious one.

Yeah, but no passed out ball hanger pictures. That is the entire best memory of Internext.

[AdorableAudrey]

As an indie paysite owner I've felt a little out of place at the shows I've been to so far (Internext & Xbiz in Vegas), they definitely don't feel like they cater to small business owners like myself. I have enjoyed the connections I've made and picked up some valuable information at the shows but I have to say that private get-togethers and content shooting meets are a much better use of my travel dollars and time usually.

Then again without going to them I never would have met Gonzo and got to bowl naked at his party, which is a memory I will cherish forever even though it totally supports what you guys are saying about useless drunken antics instead of business...

[gonzo]

As an indie paysite owner I've felt a little out of place at the shows I've been to so far (Internext & Xbiz in Vegas), they definitely don't feel like they cater to small business owners like myself. I have enjoyed the connections I've made and picked up some valuable information at the shows but I have to say that private get-togethers and content shooting meets are a much better use of my travel dollars and time usually.

Then again without going to them I never would have met Gonzo and got to bowl naked at his party, which is a memory I will cherish forever even though it totally supports what you guys are saying about useless drunken antics instead of business...

That was a suite party and the company was glad to have everyone that showed up. Several people were bowling nekkid that night too but I can say no one passed out there.

[tony404]

That was a suite party and the company was glad to have everyone that showed up. Several people were bowling nekkid that night too but I can say no one passed out there.

I know some people would pay big money for the gonzo, hellpuppy naked bowling pics. lol

[gonzo]

I know some people would pay big money for the gonzo, hellpuppy naked bowling pics. lol

Violation - Thats a Violation of the hairy ass rule.

[housekeeper]

Good thread and some interesting viewpoints, I'd like to see companies offering more software or equipment as well, but as was pointed out not quite feasible. The first show I went to was in Chicago circa 1985, it was actually a CES show and the porn section was kind of like an addendum to the electronics show. Is that not how the shows were born, out of CES shows which were originally in Vegas, I think?

Anyhow, hope the low attendance is just a passing fancy. Like many others I have attended trade shows for years in a myriad of industries, it's always a beautiful thing when human interaction is involved...

[RawAlex]

Violation - Thats a Violation of the hairy ass rule.

I just don't want to see what the NFL referee signal would be for that one.

[Hell Puppy]

I know some people would pay big money for the gonzo, hellpuppy naked bowling pics. lol

Optometrists might pay....as it would cause people to claw their eyes and generate a lot of biz for 'em....

You couldn't really see much of anything for the hair anyway.

[Hell Puppy]

also if its business why does there have to be loud parties, excessive drinking and half naked models. Most of us look at naked chicks all day long whether its shooting them or looking on a screen. Its like it doesnt make you cool to have a bunch of paid girls half naked at a show its a waste of time and money. I think you took those things out you would have a much smaller show but a much more serious one.

Arguments can be made in name of branding and taking care of your best customers for the drinking and girls. But I absolutely agree about the music volume. There's no business being done AT ALL if the volume is so loud you cant have a conversation.

I've come home with a sore throat more times than I can count just from trying to talk at a club party.

[brand0n]

2livecrew...

please.

im sorry but im not dropping 2k to go to a show that the main focus of is "2livecrew" and thepornpokertour.

if i want ignorant hip-hop i can visit any of the night clubs in the area and jam all night to "me so horny" for 100 bucks.

i go to a weekly poker game, costs me 50 bucks.

so, i in a nutshell have the highlights of this show for 150 dollars and do so in a local area.

i personally have bitched about the shows so many times that i think they hate me. they got greedy as fuck, and figured that there wasent a bottom for them to hit. that litterly the sky was the limit and the could keep going and going.

well i think that this show should clearly demonstrate that is not the case.

[MRock]

Never been to any trade show for adult. I can not comment about how they have been run or organized. I DO KNOW that I was told years ago ( 1999-2000 ) it was a waste of time by several other amateur webmasters, so we never worried about going. What does that say about how things were run???

On a related note, we used to go to many amateur web girl meetings here in Florida. One of my favs was a party hosted by Honez in Daytona. Ideas were exchanged, photo shoots done or arranged and they were awesome fun and productive. They have all but disappeared now ... have not been to one of those since the 9/11 fall of the web ...

[tony404]

I find I get more at dinners like we all did sat. And I agree hellpuppy the music is nuts, we didnt go back sun to the atl forum because my voice was gone. As far as branding I have been to a few things sponsored by the big boys, I never used their product or pushed their service. To me its much more powerful, I come on here ask people their thoughts and buy a product based on that. Then who bought drinks and naked girls. Maybe I have been in adult too long over 25 yrs, to me its a business nothing more. The cool look at the naked chicks lost its luster a long time ago.

[Hell Puppy]

I've continued to think about this, and I think it all starts with the attendees. And with the show operators, the type of show you put on dictates what type of attendee you draw.

Somewhere along the way, almost all of the adult industry shows became party shows. I think a lot of that is because that's what attendees came to expect. The attendees were going to see friends and business partners, have some good meals, go out to the clubs and in some cases maybe get wide and snort something off a strippers ass.

Deals done were incidental as the real work was always done by email and icq back at the office anyway. You might meet someone new, hear an idea, but the shows were social. In many cases the sponsors were there to entertain their best traffic providers just to make sure someone else didn't buy 'em toot and hookers and lure away those clicks.

This all worked well and good when the web was full of newbs who would easily part with their credit cards and sign up. Insane amounts of money were flying all over.

Fast forward to now. The money isn't there on either side. ROI is king.

So what are the attendees who still have money to go to shows today looking for? I think there are a lot of answers in these threads, let's see who acts upon it.

Personally, I'd like to do maybe 3 shows next year. I dont do drugs of any kind. I dont do hookers. I will drink socially, but I can afford to buy my own good booze instead of whatever is in the well. Though i can be suckered in with a really good meal. I do like to learn new things, and I am always on look out for new business however.

[RawAlex]

The shows face a real weird problem:

If there aren't a whole ass load of parties, nobody seems to want to show up. If they have the parties, people show up, party all night, are useless all day, and the only time you meet anyone is when they are too drunk and the music is too loud.

No ROI on that one.

[Hell Puppy]

The shows face a real weird problem:

If there aren't a whole ass load of parties, nobody seems to want to show up. If they have the parties, people show up, party all night, are useless all day, and the only time you meet anyone is when they are too drunk and the music is too loud.

No ROI on that one.

True if you target the guys looking to party.

I think there is a grossly underserved market of business people, especially small business operators, contained within the adult industry. The same guys the bro's and ballers have always made fun of ironically.

Either way, the shows have to get "right sized". Shows drawing 3000 or more people are done. Shows drawing 300 might very well be done.

[C H R I S 2.0]

For anyone who thinks that adult trade shows are done- I suggest you attend Adult Novelty Expo along with several other very populas shows.We had over 150 exhibtiors at ANE.

AEE is still going strong, albeit not as strong as it has been in the past - but still strong.

Before you start name calling I suggest you look within at your own business to see what you can do to improve- as I will be doing the same.

:waving:

[C H R I S 2.0]

Oh and Gonzo - i fully respect your opinions and realize that you were close with MJ and Cat. Cat is still writing for us as is tom hymes who I also hae the utmost respect for.

Obviosly I need to earn your trust - I hope I can do so in the future.

[gonzo]

Oh and Gonzo - i fully respect your opinions and realize that you were close with MJ and Cat. Cat is still writing for us as is tom hymes who I also hae the utmost respect for.

Obviosly I need to earn your trust - I hope I can do so in the future.

Im easy Chris.
Return my call / ICQ / email when Im asking for details about a show that Im responsible for overseeing.

I really didnt know Monty that well but he was open and professional to me the entire time he was with your company. MJ being gone is a loss.

I dont know Tom very well either but I found him of the utmost level of professionalism when he moderated the panel I was on in Vegas. He was very prepared and talked to the issues. Rare. Ya scored on this readdition.

Kathee I have to admit I have known for several years and she should be writing for several tech and adult magazines as she is both knowledgeable and professional about any subject she takes on. You guys should pay her more and listen to her about repairing the mess the magazine is in as well as the website.

I cant remember when I went to AVNonline for any news.
Outside of my own sources my first stop is Xbiz- followed by Ynot and then when Im checking the ad rotation Ill see what the beermasters are doing at GFY.

Each of your fellow employees will tell you Ive never been an AVN ass kisser. Ive told them like it was straight up. Just like the conversations Ive had in the past year with Anne, Kristin and now Alec. We dont agree on every point but if someone asks in earnest Im going to be honest.

Being Southern Im just not much for the LA porn royalty show.
As we say down here... "Dont Sing It - Bring it!"

Every one of the show owners in that thread at GFY all agreed on ONE thing - its time for a change. However didnt really see much substance being discussed beyond that by anyone.

I dont have anything personal against you. I dont know you. But the business as reached a point where none of this is a joke and anyone that treats it as such will be joining KB on stage in a comedy routine. [I hear hes very good]

I challenge any of you to step up to the plate and "sell" us on why we should attend your show going forward.

2Live Crew isnt a draw. I know the guys that hired Dmoney and I dont think they intended the promo to be a show draw.

$300 for a ticket to sit at a resort hotel isnt either - its ego stroking.
Dont tell me how you guys do that to keep out the riff raff when every night I see the pool area lined with local hookers wearing a mysterious "talent" badge. They are HOOKERS. They arent shooting scenes they are selling ass.

And honestly Chris if im going to take a vacation - Im certainly not going to do it with the rest of the industry. I see enough of this all day - every day.

Lets be honest. The shows started out as an excuse for guys in this biz to go party and get some ass. I should know - at the time I used this excuse to get away from my 9-5 job where this was just a hobby. And it was awesome. Where else can you get that smashed and hang out with women that you used to jerk your dick to when you were a kid PLUS new eager fresh faces as well. It was like shooting fish in a barrel and some of the best times of my life. Everything had just started and I dressed in suit and hung out on the rim of the activity.

Theres a picture somewhere around here that my datacenter partners took of me with Nina Hartley,Porsche Lynn and Cristy Lake piled up on a couch. Back then web guys didnt mix well with the dvd stars. And one of the funniest times was in Miami turning down being filmed getting a blow job. I hadnt eaten but twice the time I was there becasue of the Cyebrerotica multiple free bars and this chick insisted that I be able to pop a massive load on cam.

I grew out of this as time went on and I realized that not only could I make a living out of this but I was pretty good at it too. However the shows never did grow out of it.

And now yall need to innovate as well as the rest of us.

[gonzo]

For anyone who thinks that adult trade shows are done- I suggest you attend Adult Novelty Expo along with several other very populas shows.We had over 150 exhibtiors at ANE.

AEE is still going strong, albeit not as strong as it has been in the past - but still strong.

Before you start name calling I suggest you look within at your own business to see what you can do to improve- as I will be doing the same.

:waving:
Come on Chris.
Save that shit for GFY.

Ive been at the past 5 AEE shows. Slowly but surely you guys have allowed teeth whitening booths, donate for a prayer and people just selling shit to take over at least a 3rd of the back portion of the hall.

The Palms for Internext is a shit hole.

I hear they treat the locals better than they treat us. Several people were bumped the first night of the first year down the strip. And hotel management's attitude was FUCK you. Im not sure how I avoided the bump when I saw the Mighty 12clicks sent down the road much to his disdain.

I wouldnt be surprised if many people stayed elsewhere this year in order to make the trip and just hung out at the bar and skipped a badge.

Your missing the point - the name calling across the boards is because the input you get seems to fall on deaf ears. Everyone is frustrated.

The business as a whole wants these things to improve. They must improve for the better of us all.

Yet wheres the Summer show going to be in 2010?

[C H R I S 2.0]

Finally someone calls it the way it was and you didnt even brag about how many events youve sponsored in the past.

They all want new blood but nobody wants to do what it will take to bring that back in the door especially in Florida. that show was a haven for every girl starting a site on the web to meet up and do shoots. Once they jacked the price to 3 bills that ended all of that.

I can understand why the hotel is on lockdown after I was there with JoeSho one year and this local was beating us up for drugs and ass for about an hour.

Joe wouldnt give him any booty so the guy asked him to buy him drinks instead...they locked the hotel down the very next year. Well except for the hookers that get in on the mysterious "talent" pass that you never see advertised.

Badge : $300 / Half Price for Webmasters!!]
Hotel: $600.00
Food: Negotiuable


Total Tab: $600.00 - $1000.00

That loving feeling : priceless.....

And finally as for our attendance... we more attendees thatn any other adult digitalmedia trade show.. If the qty of shows thinned out... which vegas will be a great example of... we will see if this improves show quality....

Can you save judgement until then....

[C H R I S 2.0]

Come on Chris.
Save that shit for GFY.

Ive been at the past 5 AEE shows. Slowly but surely you guys have allowed teeth whitening booths, donate for a prayer and people just selling shit to take over at least a 3rd of the back portion of the hall.

The Palms for Internext is a shit hole.

I hear they treat the locals better than they treat us. Several people were bumped the first night of the first year down the strip. And hotel management's attitude was FUCK you. Im not sure how I avoided the bump when I saw the Mighty 12clicks sent down the road much to his disdain.

I wouldnt be surprised if many people stayed elsewhere this year in order to make the trip and just hung out at the bar and skipped a badge.

Your missing the point - the name calling across the boards is because the input you get seems to fall on deaf ears. Everyone is frustrated.

The business as a whole wants these things to improve. They must improve for the better of us all.

Yet wheres the Summer show going to be in 2010?

Thanks for actually speaking to me like a person.... much appreciated!!

Vegas will be at the Palms - Summer will most likely be at the westin again because of contracts...
personally I would like to take the show to Cancun...

[C H R I S 2.0]

Im easy Chris.
Return my call / ICQ / email when Im asking for details about a show that Im responsible for overseeing.

I really didnt know Monty that well but he was open and professional to me the entire time he was with your company. MJ being gone is a loss.

I dont know Tom very well either but I found him of the utmost level of professionalism when he moderated the panel I was on in Vegas. He was very prepared and talked to the issues. Rare. Ya scored on this readdition.

Kathee I have to admit I have known for several years and she should be writing for several tech and adult magazines as she is both knowledgeable and professional about any subject she takes on. You guys should pay her more and listen to her about repairing the mess the magazine is in as well as the website.

I cant remember when I went to AVNonline for any news.
Outside of my own sources my first stop is Xbiz- followed by Ynot and then when Im checking the ad rotation Ill see what the beermasters are doing at GFY.

Each of your fellow employees will tell you Ive never been an AVN ass kisser. Ive told them like it was straight up. Just like the conversations Ive had in the past year with Anne, Kristin and now Alec. We dont agree on every point but if someone asks in earnest Im going to be honest.

Being Southern Im just not much for the LA porn royalty show.
As we say down here... "Dont Sing It - Bring it!"

Every one of the show owners in that thread at GFY all agreed on ONE thing - its time for a change. However didnt really see much substance being discussed beyond that by anyone.

I dont have anything personal against you. I dont know you. But the business as reached a point where none of this is a joke and anyone that treats it as such will be joining KB on stage in a comedy routine. [I hear hes very good]

I challenge any of you to step up to the plate and "sell" us on why we should attend your show going forward.

2Live Crew isnt a draw. I know the guys that hired Dmoney and I dont think they intended the promo to be a show draw.

$300 for a ticket to sit at a resort hotel isnt either - its ego stroking.
Dont tell me how you guys do that to keep out the riff raff when every night I see the pool area lined with local hookers wearing a mysterious "talent" badge. They are HOOKERS. They arent shooting scenes they are selling ass.

And honestly Chris if im going to take a vacation - Im certainly not going to do it with the rest of the industry. I see enough of this all day - every day.

Lets be honest. The shows started out as an excuse for guys in this biz to go party and get some ass. I should know - at the time I used this excuse to get away from my 9-5 job where this was just a hobby. And it was awesome. Where else can you get that smashed and hang out with women that you used to jerk your dick to when you were a kid PLUS new eager fresh faces as well. It was like shooting fish in a barrel and some of the best times of my life. Everything had just started and I dressed in suit and hung out on the rim of the activity.

Theres a picture somewhere around here that my datacenter partners took of me with Nina Hartley,Porsche Lynn and Cristy Lake piled up on a couch. Back then web guys didnt mix well with the dvd stars. And one of the funniest times was in Miami turning down being filmed getting a blow job. I hadnt eaten but twice the time I was there becasue of the Cyebrerotica multiple free bars and this chick insisted that I be able to pop a massive load on cam.

I grew out of this as time went on and I realized that not only could I make a living out of this but I was pretty good at it too. However the shows never did grow out of it.

And now yall need to innovate as well as the rest of us.


I think this thread may actually get some results VS the one at the the zoo...:clapping:

[C H R I S 2.0]

Also Gonzo - let me tell you a few of the things we are doing to make the experience better for both attendees and sponsors:

1. Lowering Prices for Webmasters

2. Lowerng Sponsorship Prices by as much as 50%

3. Combining Vegas and AEE in ne mega week super show.. No Break

4. Lowering prices to encourage more suite parties /networking events

5. Not allowing OUTSIDE PARTIES - your not involved your not involved.

6.

:-pearl:

I appreciate all feedbacjk... please leave here as it seems to be a more intelligent posting forum..

[C H R I S 2.0]

$75.00 is fine for webmasters.

I will even let webmasters in for free, and buy them drinks...

Fact of the matter is that we need the webmaster back at the show, period

[C H R I S 2.0]

:yowsa::yowsa:
Oh and Gonzo . Cocaine Chris...cmon.

Low Blow- I have a family to support, please.

I already took a break to solve this problem, dont even think that it has resurfaced.
:cryin:

[DannyCox]

When AVN first took over IA2000, we did deal with them quite a bit, and they were happy to work with us on giving breaks to the Amateurs in attendance and giving us free space to hold our various Amateur seminars. Then, after some personnel changes, things just went silent and we could never get responses to questions again, or any assistance.We did feel a bit ignored.

The only communication we did have were AVN sales people trying to sell us booth space, but then also ignoring the comments I did have on that booth space. We had booth space at every show from 1999 to 2003, and that last show in Vegas in 2003 was the last straw. As I mentioned previously, it was getting both frustrating and tedious having more people come to our booth trying to sell us there stuff than showing interest in ours! It felt like over half the walk around's on the floor were only there to sell and promote. Complaints about this just fell on deaf ears and were ignored. It is wrong to allow people in who are not exhibitors or sponsors of the show to sell on the show floor, especially when they are leaving promotional materials all over the place and grabbing people right out of your booth! that killd it for us ever exhibiting or sponsoring again.

We also stopped going to shows when the main selling points being used were the "parties". Even avnchris made a post on AWW with the subject line, "Last Call for Alchohol......... I mean FREE Badges......" (sic). I know that is supposed to be humorous, but that really is the basic sell for shows...the party promotion before business promotion. It's also something I, and many others, are not the least bit interested in. I want to be told why I should go as it relates to my business, not my liver!

I may be totally naive, but I do believe that the real decision makers in our Industry are sick of these style of shows and would like to see something truly more business oriented. I know very few people who take any of the seminars seriously as all they are about is someone sitting on a panel saying "Buy My Shit!". Very little thought goes into those seminars, and in most industry trade shows, panel members are not allowed to promote their own products while on panel. Speakers are selected on their knowledge and ability to properly speak, not on the "old boys" network that has gone on much too long.

There really is a lot to do and a massive overhaul of the show concept needs to be done. Trade Show promoters need to concentrate on the ability of their attendees to do business, not the bottom line, as that bottom line will rise with a properly produced show.

[Toby]

...personally I would like to take the show to Cancun...

Why? If you're looking to increase attendance of rank and file webmasters, moving the show to a resort location outside the US isn't conducive to that goal. If program owners, billing companies and other vendors want a B2B show in Cancun or similar that should be a separate event.

First and foremost, before anything else will make any significant difference both shows need to be moved to more affordable venues. I'm not just talking about the hotel room prices, but all of the other ammenities too. I don't mind spending some coin for a nice meal a couple of nights while at a show, but for other meals I want something nearby or on site that is affordable but not fast food.

[Cleo]

for other meals I want something nearby or on site that is affordable but not fast food.
We were rather shocked when we were charged $2 for about 10 peanuts but not as shocked as the $45+ bill for a latte, water and pastry.

[miz_wright]

Also Gonzo - let me tell you a few of the things we are doing to make the experience better for both attendees and sponsors:

1. Lowering Prices for Webmasters

2. Lowerng Sponsorship Prices by as much as 50%

3. Combining Vegas and AEE in ne mega week super show.. No Break

4. Lowering prices to encourage more suite parties /networking events

5. Not allowing OUTSIDE PARTIES - your not involved your not involved.

6.

:-pearl:

I appreciate all feedbacjk... please leave here as it seems to be a more intelligent posting forum..

Number (3) makes me hurt just thinking about it. I don't even see how that can work -- a lot of us do both shows, and that just insures I have to be in two places at one. As it stands now, for just I'next, I am generally trying to be in three places at once, just for webmasters. Anyone who say me in Florida saw me running from meeting to meeting and apologising for not being able to stop and chat. January is generally 3x as bad - and trying to work a booth at the same time?

... I don't see how that helps?

This year's Vegas show was brutal, already - checking out and moving to the Palms, working a booth all day, and then hustling ass to the Palms to start Show #2? I sounded like a tranny hooker on a bad day, and I was just getting to the show where I could speak to my clients.

Chris, you know I adore you, but trying to put the consumer show on at the same time a lot of us will need to be working with webmasters seems... Tough.

[RawAlex]

Chris, Vegas is a clusterf*ck to attend, I would hate to think of exhibiting and trying to talk to webmasters. I did both this year, and honestly, I won't do it again in the current configuration.

The Palms absolutely sucks. Far from everything, close to nothing, and the show floor in a night club is total stupid, sorry. It once again creates the isolation, as the "rich guys" hide out upstairs in their private lodges, and the masses huddle down on the floor. It is anything but inviting, a totally anti-social setup that seems much more intended to create an "us and them" mentality than anything else.

AEE is actually the better show now, I made more contacts and had more time to talk to people than I did at the Palms. heck, I suspect that most of the actual business at The Palms was done at the lobby bar on opening night, not on the show floor..

You want to really make it go? Here are some tips:

Get one of the smaller areas at the ventian for a couple of days before AEE - 2 days max. Make the webmaster show badges also "industry" badges for AEE, and vis-versa. Encourage the "video" people who do sell content online, or who do have online programs to participate. Make a small show floor (doesn't have to be massive), create some social areas, etc. Make the webmaster show a warmup to "the big show". Understand that the video and novelty market and the online markets are constantly merging. Why separate them by days and distance?

AVN needs to accept that they cannot continue to charge super high badge prices to webmasters. $300 for a "party pass" may be good for some people, but as a bottom line business expense, paying $300 for one show, and then $150 more for another show isn't exactly a good start. I can meet almost all of those same people without a badge in the lobby of the two hotels.

Easiest way to tell it doesn't work is just to check your attendance in Miami. The numbers are there if you really want to see. Attendance WAY down. Attendance is what makes these shows work, if the people I would want to meet aren't going, why would I go? A badge at $50 and a hotel bar that doesn't charge the same amount for a mixed drink would be a very good start. A 4 day run in Miami can easily run 3k now. I can get near enough the same ROI staying home, so why do it? Heck, 3k would get me to Phoenix, to Cybernet, and enough left over to do QuebecExpo too. You have to justify your costs - attendance should be telling you that the costs aren't justified.

I could go on, but I will let someone else take a whack at this.

[Jim_Gunn]

Number (3) makes me hurt just thinking about it. I don't even see how that can work -- a lot of us do both shows, and that just insures I have to be in two places at one. As it stands now, for just I'next, I am generally trying to be in three places at once, just for webmasters. Anyone who say me in Florida saw me running from meeting to meeting and apologising for not being able to stop and chat. January is generally 3x as bad - and trying to work a booth at the same time?

... I don't see how that helps?

This year's Vegas show was brutal, already - checking out and moving to the Palms, working a booth all day, and then hustling ass to the Palms to start Show #2? I sounded like a tranny hooker on a bad day, and I was just getting to the show where I could speak to my clients.

Chris, you know I adore you, but trying to put the consumer show on at the same time a lot of us will need to be working with webmasters seems... Tough.


I am in full agreement with this. The AEE and Internext shows are both important to me and I want them to be consecutive, one after another, NOT running at the same time. I am not sure by AVNChris' wording what he meant exactly. The way it is now they are back to back with one day in between which is fine. If they are run at the same time like you guys did a few year ago, that will be a nightmare since we cannot be in two places at once.

[C H R I S 2.0]

I am in full agreement with this. The AEE and Internext shows are both important to me and I want them to be consecutive, one after another, NOT running at the same time. I am not sure by AVNChris' wording what he meant exactly. The way it is now they are back to back with one day in between which is fine. If they are run at the same time like you guys did a few year ago, that will be a nightmare since we cannot be in two places at once.

Thats is exactly what i meant:yowsa:

[brand0n]

how bout you just give me a life time pass right now.

ill sing praise of avn from here out.

ya im a fucking sell out, so what of it.

[gonzo]

:yowsa::yowsa:
Oh and Gonzo . Cocaine Chris...cmon.

Low Blow- I have a family to support, please.

I already took a break to solve this problem, dont even think that it has resurfaced.
:cryin:
Fair enough.
Its a bad habit of mine to poke fun at everything including myself.

I really dont care either way and wouldnt have known had I not been asked to pull a pretty nasty post over here about it by an anon.

I didnt know it was a problem large enough to warrant a break so in retrospect it was also in bad taste.

As long as you honor your business commitment with me - it doesnt matter to me what you do on your time.

[Hell Puppy]

Yeah, I remember the year both AEE and Internext were held at same time over at the Sands. That was rough. The exhibitors were run ragged. The attendees struggled to find people because they were spread amongst multiple locations.

I despise the Palms. I was among the bumped first year there despite early arrival, their customer service sucked in how they handled it. And I will never stay there again as a result. Period.

And last year, I stayed in a tower suite down on the strip for the entire time for what one night would've cost me at Palms. I bought a badge, but I think used it for a grand total of 5 hours. Waste of time. I couldn't wait to get out of that hotel...food sucks, their bars suck, their service sucks.

Came back over for one of the parties only to find the club pretty empty yet any place to sit had a reserved sign on it for whatever "stars" were to show up later as an "attraction". Get fucking real. I'm in the business, I'm not there to worship a porn star. If I cant grab a pit, sit, have a conversation and do a little business, I'm out of there. And I was.

That pretty well ended my attendance last year. I spent my time offsite with people I actually wanted to see.

[gonzo]

The dual shows were a nightmare that year.
And Chris can you guys hire people that register you that arent from the retirement home?

Grandpa tried to tell me that one badge got me into the other show when I knew damn well it didnt. The guy refused to acknowledge me any further as it was about time for his break and they werent going to cut the badge that was PAID for until we got with one of the regualr staff that happened to pop in.

[tony404]

When AVN first took over IA2000, we did deal with them quite a bit, and they were happy to work with us on giving breaks to the Amateurs in attendance and giving us free space to hold our various Amateur seminars. Then, after some personnel changes, things just went silent and we could never get responses to questions again, or any assistance.We did feel a bit ignored.

The only communication we did have were AVN sales people trying to sell us booth space, but then also ignoring the comments I did have on that booth space. We had booth space at every show from 1999 to 2003, and that last show in Vegas in 2003 was the last straw. As I mentioned previously, it was getting both frustrating and tedious having more people come to our booth trying to sell us there stuff than showing interest in ours! It felt like over half the walk around's on the floor were only there to sell and promote. Complaints about this just fell on deaf ears and were ignored. It is wrong to allow people in who are not exhibitors or sponsors of the show to sell on the show floor, especially when they are leaving promotional materials all over the place and grabbing people right out of your booth! that killd it for us ever exhibiting or sponsoring again.

We also stopped going to shows when the main selling points being used were the "parties". Even avnchris made a post on AWW with the subject line, "Last Call for Alchohol......... I mean FREE Badges......" (sic). I know that is supposed to be humorous, but that really is the basic sell for shows...the party promotion before business promotion. It's also something I, and many others, are not the least bit interested in. I want to be told why I should go as it relates to my business, not my liver!

I may be totally naive, but I do believe that the real decision makers in our Industry are sick of these style of shows and would like to see something truly more business oriented. I know very few people who take any of the seminars seriously as all they are about is someone sitting on a panel saying "Buy My Shit!". Very little thought goes into those seminars, and in most industry trade shows, panel members are not allowed to promote their own products while on panel. Speakers are selected on their knowledge and ability to properly speak, not on the "old boys" network that has gone on much too long.

There really is a lot to do and a massive overhaul of the show concept needs to be done. Trade Show promoters need to concentrate on the ability of their attendees to do business, not the bottom line, as that bottom line will rise with a properly produced show.

Well said.

[gonzo]

how bout you just give me a life time pass right now.

ill sing praise of avn from here out.

ya im a fucking sell out, so what of it.
DUde you told me you were a big baller.
Why you always trying to line up freebies?

[tony404]

$75.00 is fine for webmasters.

I will even let webmasters in for free, and buy them drinks...

Fact of the matter is that we need the webmaster back at the show, period

Why does it have to be about free booze? lol Also isnt anyone seeing the trend the webmaster affiliate is disappearing. So trying to get more people is hard to do when the industry is trying to push out the small webmaster.

[EmporerEJ]

When I attend Vegas shows, I also like to hit up CES, So a schedule that allows the shows before, or after CES, in sequence, would be best. That way, one could attentd all the shows, one after another, by staying about a wekk. (Which I usually do)
But, being the frugal guy that I am, I stay downtown on Fremont street for the week for one night's price on the strip. Much less "crazy" and the people in the hotels are more appreciative, and the tipping is lower for better service.

And there shouldn't be a fee, or a very low fee for admission to qualified attendees.
Just my opinion.

[Hell Puppy]

That's the good and bad of vegas for a show.

Everyone has different tastes in hotels, and there's something for anyone's preference and wallet. It makes for a very attractive destination because of that and there being so much to do other than the show.

But that is also the problem with Vegas shows. It's a BEAR to get everyone you want to see in the same place at the same time. If you dont have someone's cell number and/or a pre-arranged meet, you can both spend 5 days in town and never once see each other.

[Hell Puppy]

Also, timing of CES/AEE does not really allow for running a show like Internext BEFORE they come to down due to the proximity of New Years.

[EmporerEJ]

That's the good and bad of vegas for a show.

Everyone has different tastes in hotels, and there's something for anyone's preference and wallet. It makes for a very attractive destination because of that and there being so much to do other than the show.

But that is also the problem with Vegas shows. It's a BEAR to get everyone you want to see in the same place at the same time. If you dont have someone's cell number and/or a pre-arranged meet, you can both spend 5 days in town and never once see each other.

Real old fashioned way to solve that.
Bulletin board with pieces of paper on it.
Right inside the gate, and don't charge people to use it, for shit's sake.

[gonzo]

I fear this thread will come to an untimely end . . .

[Hell Puppy]

Real old fashioned way to solve that.
Bulletin board with pieces of paper on it.
Right inside the gate, and don't charge people to use it, for shit's sake.

I'm sure there's a high tech equivalent...hell that's an opportunity for someone. I'd say 80% plus of show attendee's tote smart phones of one sort or another.

[EmporerEJ]

I'm sure there's a high tech equivalent...hell that's an opportunity for someone. I'd say 80% plus of show attendee's tote smart phones of one sort or another.

That's the problem...all that connectivity, and no one to connect to.

[Cleo]

I'm sure there's a high tech equivalent...hell that's an opportunity for someone. I'd say 80% plus of show attendee's tote smart phones of one sort or another.
Augmented Reality (http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/yelp_brings_first_us_augmented_reality_to_iphone_s .php) Porn Apps?

[C H R I S 2.0]

right on gonzo

[LAJ]

As an indie paysite owner I've felt a little out of place at the shows I've been to so far (Internext & Xbiz in Vegas), they definitely don't feel like they cater to small business owners like myself. I have enjoyed the connections I've made and picked up some valuable information at the shows but I have to say that private get-togethers and content shooting meets are a much better use of my travel dollars and time usually.

Shameless plug time...

Adorable Audrey... our show is catered specifically for people such as yourself. I really hope you give Cybernet Expo San Fran a try in 2010. I'll do what I can to make the experience great for you.

[gonzo]

Some input and observations from us that are irrelevant.

First off Chris ... your missing the point. Cancun? Lets run the price up even higher.

I DONT WANT A VACATION WITH EVERYONE IN THIS INDUSTRY AND I REFUSE TO CONTINUE PAYING FOR SHOWS LIKE IM GOING TO ONE.

Secondly... AVN signed a longterm contract to score a bigger deal. Good for you but now you are unable to react to a changing market yet you guys are in hopes we are going to bail you out until it ends?

In a free market thats called a poor business decision. Someones mistake is others gain.

Honestly the way AVN has treated the web side of this business for years as redheaded stepchildren ... I cant see many rushing to your aid to clean up a mistake you guys made.

And now I turn the gun on us on the web as some of us have observed ... we are turning into the video side of the market... the trend several of us are seeing is programs don't want to deal with webmasters, and they don't have a clue how to make money online any more, except to scam it.

They don't want to deal with the webmasters.

This entire business needs an enema.

[Hell Puppy]

It's fucked across the board. There are so many things broken about the industry or rather the business models it is built upon, that it is a complete and total mess.

And at the same time, even those who see it and might be wise enough to want to make moves to fix it are in a position where they'd have to sacrifice a huge chunk of their business to do so.

Who wants to be the first big PPS program to adjust your membership models and subsequently pay affiliates what that sign up is really worth? The sheep will move to the next $100 per signup weekend program. And those who have real traffic will just go cut a prepaid deal with whichever of your competitors will give them the best deal.

Meanwhile you aren't going to increase your number of signups significantly even if you feed it quality traffic yourself. Why? Because thanks to things like cross sales we've made savvy users absolutely paranoid about giving up their credit card number to anything that even remotely smells like porn. The people who should be our best customers will usually very quickly run across a site they want to join that gives them nothing but a cookie cutter back end and slams their card from so many angles they have to cancel the account with the credit card company and get a new number.

So much for repeat business.

[EmporerEJ]

Augmented Reality (http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/yelp_brings_first_us_augmented_reality_to_iphone_s .php) Porn Apps?

I LOVE that idea!

[brand0n]

DUde you told me you were a big baller.
Why you always trying to line up freebies?
ive never uttered those words to anyone, let a lone you.

im a traffic guy, always have been, always will be.

and in that same breath, i do not care if i am making 10 dollars a month or 10 thousand, ill take any freebie i can get from anyone at any time.

everyone rich ive ever spoke to got that way from not spending money on things they didnt have 2.

i drop in here from time to time to read whats posted here, i am not here to start any issues or problems.

if you do not want a webmaster who youve known to be in this biz for over 10 years visiting, please tell me so, and ill head back to the zoo.
:scratchin

[gonzo]

ive never uttered those words to anyone, let a lone you.

im a traffic guy, always have been, always will be.

and in that same breath, i do not care if i am making 10 dollars a month or 10 thousand, ill take any freebie i can get from anyone at any time.

everyone rich ive ever spoke to got that way from not spending money on things they didnt have 2.

i drop in here from time to time to read whats posted here, i am not here to start any issues or problems.

if you do not want a webmaster who youve known to be in this biz for over 10 years visiting, please tell me so, and ill head back to the zoo.
:scratchin
When you get thin skinned?
And I will agree if its free its for me!
Where did you move to?

[brand0n]

i guess in my older years im trying to move as far away from name calling and shit strirring as possible. its never done me a bit of good really.

i moved back to myrtle beach sc. i still have my house (being rented currently) in charlotte and ive rented a beach house for the time being until i can figure out what life holds for me next.

as it stands i am in ohio with my programing team working on a new traffic venture. pulling an all nighter currently. heading back to the beach on the 5th or so, then down to FL for a few days to work on a deal with a fellow traffic webmaster, see if we cant swap some of my gray hat non productive mainstream traffic for some of his black hat productive adult traffic.

guess im getting old gonz.. if its not about making a dollar, saving a dollar or securing a dollar all ready made, im not really into it any more. both time and life are short. im not going to waste either unless its on one of those 3 above.

how you doing? back in ga eh? tell erica i said hello, and that ive never wished ill of her, instead wished the best.

[MikeSouth]

There has been some good constructive ideas here, but one of the things I see lacking is how the show is marketed. The show organizers need to look at whom they are trying to attract and for what.

lets take adult expo because its the perfect example.

Used to be you had to have some sort of reason to be there. You had to at least ut up the facade that you were involved in the industry...even when a CES badge would get you in. They didn't advertise on the radio and late night TV to come see suzy sukskok at the Sahara Convention Center Fri afternoon where sumlameniggas will be rappin their latest attempt at music and imwithstupid.com will be giving away 1000 dollars cash to whoever can best imitate steve o

Sure there were tire kickers, lots of them but they at least had to bother to print up a business card that related them to the industry.

When AVN figured out they could make money by inviting the dumb masses to see suzy, sumlameniggas and "morans" all for the low low price of 50 bucks per person per day or whatever the focus of the show shifted....from a business show to a fan show.

What they failed to do was offset the exhibitors cost, now the exhibitor is there to entertain the fans, not to do business and the cost to provide that entertainment has gone WAY up and exhibitors are dropping out because there is no ROI on suzy, sumlameniggas and a moran.

The same thing has happened to the adult internet shows that have been taken over by porn valley.

I mean when you have Joanna Angel speaking on a panel to adult webmasters and she says her site gets "5 million hits a day" that should tell you something....This actually happened and the guy next to me says to me shit I didn't know she owns google.

The bottom line here is if you want the show to be industry focused market it that way and do some q c on your product.

I dont go to shows whose main focus is Suzy Sukskok will be at the fantasy island booth and sumlameniggas will perform at the party we are throwing on Saturday night which, btw, costs 100.00 per person to attend but we do give you a chair and a bottle of andre cold duck but only if there are at least 4 of you......

[Robert]

First seminar I went to at a show in '00, I was eager to learn but left dissapointed. Second one I spent half asleep with a drink in my hand listenning to the same crap I'd heard at the first. Never bothered with a third.

[gonzo]

[quote=MikeSouth;829718

I mean when you have Joanna Angel speaking on a panel to adult webmasters and she says her site gets "5 million hits a day" that should tell you something....This actually happened and the guy next to me says to me shit I didn't know she owns google.

.[/quote]
She also said not to do anything but constantly shoot content for 2 years too. And I still dont think she owns google.

We heard a lot of bullshit come off of that panel. Program owners that talk in 3rd person was the other example. Shit I didnt know The Rock was in porn.

Joanna is a smart and articulate woman. She does know how to market to her fans but I dont think she knew how a typical person gets into this business without the backing of the west coast. There were a lot of new girls starting out in that biz in that room in Tampa and they asked a lot of questions outside of the seminar to diffuse a lot of misinformation on that panel. She should have kept KevinG on staff to help her out. But who am I to say anything to her as she is doing quite well. Point is that I dont think this was the best use of her as a show draw.

I still contend and tell Jay this constantly that the Tampa show was the best Cybernet Expo Ive ever been to. And Ive been to most of them in the past even when I was dog assed broke and staying 15 miles offsite to be able to attend.

[RawAlex]

MikeSouth, one of the problems is when the show people and the attendees no longer have the same goals. Basically, a good "business" show has the goal of bringing all the major players together under one roof, creating a situation where people can meet, get business done, find new products, programs, whatever, and get things done. When the show has that goal, they profit when things go right.

Well, in AVN's case, the webmaster shows are now just excuses for a 3 day bender and exchange of beers to keep people as "top notch bros". The AEE show is now more about entertaining the public rather than getting business done.

I am sure that in both shows, business is done - but it isn't the goal of the shows, as as a result, the purpose of the shows has slipped away from the average webmaster / producer.

AVN's aim is purely bottom line at this point, so if selling $50 tickets to the droolers and selling $300 badges to the webmasters is the way to make money, they are there. But as has been shown in the last couple of years, the attendance is dropping, the exhibitor count at the AEE show is dropping (the back half of the show floor this year was, umm, more like a flea market than anything else). The writing is on the wall.

[gonzo]

i guess in my older years im trying to move as far away from name calling and shit strirring as possible. its never done me a bit of good really.

i moved back to myrtle beach sc. i still have my house (being rented currently) in charlotte and ive rented a beach house for the time being until i can figure out what life holds for me next.

as it stands i am in ohio with my programing team working on a new traffic venture. pulling an all nighter currently. heading back to the beach on the 5th or so, then down to FL for a few days to work on a deal with a fellow traffic webmaster, see if we cant swap some of my gray hat non productive mainstream traffic for some of his black hat productive adult traffic.

guess im getting old gonz.. if its not about making a dollar, saving a dollar or securing a dollar all ready made, im not really into it any more. both time and life are short. im not going to waste either unless its on one of those 3 above.

how you doing? back in ga eh? tell erica i said hello, and that ive never wished ill of her, instead wished the best.
Age is inevitable for all of us but it beats the alternative.
We are both back in Atlanta. I had family and a house here to return to when the task was completed.

Erika is doing well with the chance to make decisions for herself. And she agrees life is too short to be worried about board drama.

[Erika]

i guess in my older years im trying to move as far away from name calling and shit strirring as possible. its never done me a bit of good really.

i moved back to myrtle beach sc. i still have my house (being rented currently) in charlotte and ive rented a beach house for the time being until i can figure out what life holds for me next.

as it stands i am in ohio with my programing team working on a new traffic venture. pulling an all nighter currently. heading back to the beach on the 5th or so, then down to FL for a few days to work on a deal with a fellow traffic webmaster, see if we cant swap some of my gray hat non productive mainstream traffic for some of his black hat productive adult traffic.

guess im getting old gonz.. if its not about making a dollar, saving a dollar or securing a dollar all ready made, im not really into it any more. both time and life are short. im not going to waste either unless its on one of those 3 above.

how you doing? back in ga eh? tell erica i said hello, and that ive never wished ill of her, instead wished the best.


There is nothing anyone can say or do to offend me ;) We are who we are.

[Toby]

The days of "panel" seminars being acceptible has come and gone. From what I've seen in the numerous comments across several boards on the future of trade shows, that's probably the most universal. The seminars have to be improved, more formal, more relevant, more informative.

Atlanta Forum last year brought in speakers on general business topics. Those went over well, other than being a bit early in the day for this crowd.

The live shoot demo by Spannow and crew at Cybernet got rave reviews.

I don't recall anyone even mentioning any of the panels at various shows in a positive light.

I hope there are a few show organizers lurking out there, reading along, taking notes...

[Erika]

I have only been to 2 trade shows. The Costa Rica show and the Atlanta forum. Costa Rica to me was not much of a biz show, but more of a vacation for freeloaders. The Atlanta Forum I did not get to experience too much because of the person I went to those shows with. In my opinion, consumer shows would be the most beneficial. You target the people you want to really do business with. Having drinks with webmasters and half the people at a trade show who usually don't do squat in porn in a waste. I consider those the "bro" and "big baller" shows.

I say target the consumers and if you know what you are doing, you really don't need many affiliates. Webmaster shows have become nothing but a popularity dick sucking contest and with the economy, not many go to them as much as they did.

[Toby]

I say target the consumers and if you know what you are doing, you really don't need many affiliates. Webmaster shows have become nothing but a popularity dick sucking contest and with the economy, not many go to them as much as they did.
Trade shows, by definition, are not consumer shows. They're for people who are in the trade.

Consumer shows can be very beneficial for producers and performers, but they really only work well in LARGE markets. AEE in Vegas during, or overlapping, with CES for example, or the Erotica shows in Los Angeles. Consumers are not going to travel outside their local area to attend.

[gonzo]

Trade shows, by definition, are not consumer shows. They're for people who are in the trade.

Consumer shows can be very beneficial for producers and performers, but they really only work well in LARGE markets. AEE in Vegas during, or overlapping, with CES for example, or the Erotica shows in Los Angeles. Consumers are not going to travel outside their local area to attend.

Shes talking about the invasion styled promos we did the last couple of years into consumer shows.

When we were doing the panels and dragoncon and frolicon to promote existing and new sites. Worked out quite well.

[Toby]

Shes talking about the invasion styled promos we did the last couple of years into consumer shows.

When we were doing the panels and dragoncon and frolicon to promote existing and new sites. Worked out quite well.

But that's not really relevant to Adult Trade Shows.

[RawAlex]

I have only been to 2 trade shows. The Costa Rica show and the Atlanta forum. Costa Rica to me was not much of a biz show, but more of a vacation for freeloaders. The Atlanta Forum I did not get to experience too much because of the person I went to those shows with. In my opinion, consumer shows would be the most beneficial. You target the people you want to really do business with. Having drinks with webmasters and half the people at a trade show who usually don't do squat in porn in a waste. I consider those the "bro" and "big baller" shows.

I say target the consumers and if you know what you are doing, you really don't need many affiliates. Webmaster shows have become nothing but a popularity dick sucking contest and with the economy, not many go to them as much as they did.

If you are selling your brand "Erika", then yes, a public show is probably very good for you. AEE in fact is a great show for the performers to get exposure (the right kind) to their potential fan base, to grow a fan base, to make them more loyal. if it wasn't for some truly insane rules in Vegas, there would be a huge market for these stars to sell and autograph merchandise all day.

The problem is we are talking B2B here. You did spot some of the problem, people who show up to trade shows but don't do squat in the porn business, just came down for a party. Vegas adult webmaster show was terrible for that, probably 1/3 of the people attending bought badges just to get invites to the parties. Their only involvement in porn was the use of their right hands and kleenex.

It is the reasons why shows like Cybernet, Phoenix, etc all end up being more productive, becuase they aren't marketed to the same people, and most if not all the people you meet at the shows are actually in the business.

[bluemoney]

As an indie paysite owner I've felt a little out of place at the shows I've been to so far (Internext & Xbiz in Vegas), they definitely don't feel like they cater to small business owners like myself.
And that's too bad. I promote many Indies and would enjoy meeting them and hearing their take on the biz. I would also love the opportunity to shoot some fresh content with a solo girl I promote for about an hour or so. Exclusive content for an affiliate could go a long way in creating a good business relationship.

[tony404]

I think people also dont realize you really dont need to be face to face to do business anymore. When I was a headhunter I placed board room level executives never met anyone. I couldnt tell you that the ceo's who wrote the checks to us or the guys I placed looked like. When I was with a dotcom I did a deals with a large dotcoms and marketers never met anyone.

[Toby]

I think people also dont realize you really dont need to be face to face to do business anymore. When I was a headhunter I placed board room level executives never met anyone. I couldnt tell you that the ceo's who wrote the checks to us or the guys I placed looked like. When I was with a dotcom I did a deals with a large dotcoms and marketers never met anyone.
The value of shows for me, in terms of doing new business, is those new contacts with people that I've never worked with before, that I'd never spoken with or often never even heard of before meeting them at a show. The shows just put everyone in the same place at the same time.

[EmporerEJ]

Well, I think if they want to have fans come, that's Ok. But they should have "Trade only" time, if that's what the show is about.
If we exhibit at a show, we are looking for both "customers." But, everyone knows you deal with things, and keep the both locked up on "Fan" days.

And the badges should be CLEARLY marked "Fan".
Charge the fans, cut the price on the exhibitors.
I donb't have a problem with AVN/XBiz, or whoever making a buck on the shows, but make it a REASONABLE buck.

And charging talent to be there? What kind of sense does that make? No Talent, no droolers.
Just make sure you have different days, different things. But all the CES Geeks in one place? It's a gold mine.....mine it.
It's good for the industry all around.
That's how the show got started, y'know?

I'm a classic example.....started out as a hybrid CES/AVN (Video store owner, worked in both industries)

[Hell Puppy]

Mike hits upon one of the key problems. And that is the agenda of the people producing the shows. Whether it be AVN, xbiz or whoever, they are doing it as a for profit venture. Any show is, but the difference here is they are using the long outdated exhibition/seminar model, which I think we've all pretty well established is broken.

The best shows right now are those that are actually put on for "business partners". The show itself, call it a summit or whatever, is not for profit, though they will try to at least break even or subsidize the hell out of the event with sponsorships or registration costs. But the underlying goal is to bring together business partners who are in a symbiotic relationship to learn and strategize how they can all grow together.

To put it another way, our shows are all about everyone trying to protect or expand their piece of the pie....and it's a shrinking pie. I'd be more interested in learning how to grow the pie. I dont mind sharing, I have no desire to be a monopoly, and I will help people if it helps me. Adult shows as they exist now do not foster this type of relationship at all...

[gonzo]

Theres that word again . . . "summit" .

I wonder way off somewhere if there is a bell being rung...

[tony404]

Mike hits upon one of the key problems. And that is the agenda of the people producing the shows. Whether it be AVN, xbiz or whoever, they are doing it as a for profit venture. Any show is, but the difference here is they are using the long outdated exhibition/seminar model, which I think we've all pretty well established is broken.

The best shows right now are those that are actually put on for "business partners". The show itself, call it a summit or whatever, is not for profit, though they will try to at least break even or subsidize the hell out of the event with sponsorships or registration costs. But the underlying goal is to bring together business partners who are in a symbiotic relationship to learn and strategize how they can all grow together.

To put it another way, our shows are all about everyone trying to protect or expand their piece of the pie....and it's a shrinking pie. I'd be more interested in learning how to grow the pie. I dont mind sharing, I have no desire to be a monopoly, and I will help people if it helps me. Adult shows as they exist now do not foster this type of relationship at all...
good points, I think that will never happen because there are waaay too many agendas and way too many who couldnt make nickle in the real world and the thought this world is crumbling.Makes them do anything to save what they have. There is a real desperation in the air.

[EmporerEJ]

Mike hits upon one of the key problems. And that is the agenda of the people producing the shows. Whether it be AVN, xbiz or whoever, they are doing it as a for profit venture. Any show is, but the difference here is they are using the long outdated exhibition/seminar model, which I think we've all pretty well established is broken.

The best shows right now are those that are actually put on for "business partners". The show itself, call it a summit or whatever, is not for profit, though they will try to at least break even or subsidize the hell out of the event with sponsorships or registration costs. But the underlying goal is to bring together business partners who are in a symbiotic relationship to learn and strategize how they can all grow together.

To put it another way, our shows are all about everyone trying to protect or expand their piece of the pie....and it's a shrinking pie. I'd be more interested in learning how to grow the pie. I dont mind sharing, I have no desire to be a monopoly, and I will help people if it helps me. Adult shows as they exist now do not foster this type of relationship at all...

Look, I appreciate your opinion, but I just can't agree. I've never heard of a trade show put on "Not for profit." Sounds more like you are having "a meeting." Or maybe a sewing group?
You could put your own show/summit, on maybe?

And hell yes, it's about a bigger piece of pie. And I DON'T agree with you on "Shrinking pie." Maybe from your seat?

The adult industry has STEADILY grown since the mid 80's when I started in in it?

And you want to know about something new...something that "grows the pie?"
What the hell have I been doing for the past 9 years?
I invented the Virtual Sex Machine, and created an enitrely NEW channel to RESELL the "Pie" (Content...new or old, is NEW to the VR market,) in.
Don't blame me if some people can't see it. "Others" seem to get it as we are now beginning to see "Knock offs," or put more kindly for the benefit of others here, "similar players in the VR field."

[EmporerEJ]

good points, I think that will never happen because there are waaay too many agendas and way too many who couldnt make nickle in the real world and the thought this world is crumbling.Makes them do anything to save what they have. There is a real desperation in the air.

Real desperation because there has been little change in the adult market in the past 30 years.

Film to Video (Big Jump in sales) 80's
Video to DVD and web in the 90's. (New sales channels for basically the same product)
The public is still just watching a video of porn on a screen.
80's- Theater, and then TV screen-
90's-00's- TV screen & Computer screen......(And now it lags, and is jumpy)

And they've finally figured it out.

Hence, they expect it for free. And some in the industry, are happy to oblige with Tube sites. (Which I don't care about)
But everyone else screams "The sky is falling" because the days of shooting fish in the barrel is over.

Boy, we couldn't see this one coming, like 10 years ago? When all the other "business models" in the non-adult industry also failed to monetize web traffic?

PLEASE. If you don't give the customer some kind of "value added" service, real or perceived, he eventually figures it out, and you've lost his attention, and his dollars.

Maybe there NEEDS to be "desperation in the air."

[tony404]

Real desperation because there has been little change in the adult market in the past 30 years.

Film to Video (Big Jump in sales) 80's
Video to DVD and web in the 90's. (New sales channels for basically the same product)
The public is still just watching a video of porn on a screen.
80's- Theater, and then TV screen-
90's-00's- TV screen & Computer screen......(And now it lags, and is jumpy)

And they've finally figured it out.

Hence, they expect it for free. And some in the industry, are happy to oblige with Tube sites. (Which I don't care about)
But everyone else screams "The sky is falling" because the days of shooting fish in the barrel is over.

Boy, we couldn't see this one coming, like 10 years ago? When all the other "business models" in the non-adult industry also failed to monetize web traffic?

PLEASE. If you don't give the customer some kind of "value added" service, real or perceived, he eventually figures it out, and you've lost his attention, and his dollars.

Maybe there NEEDS to be "desperation in the air."

you have some good points but I think there is desperation when you have big companies giving away full scenes on the hope some will join after jerking off to their stuff for free.

[MikeSouth]

Look Im not saying they shouldnt profit, they should...what I am saying is market your product to your target market stop trying to be everything to everyone...it doesnt work.

If you want to be a fan show dont rape your exhibitors, you need them to survive...as Adult Expo is finding out.

If you want to be a trade show keep the fans out, or at least limit it to those willing to make an effort to pretend to be legit....Those guys sometimes do get in the biz....I did.

BTW I like Cybernet Expo I think it is one of the better shows but I cant justify going to SFO for it

[EmporerEJ]

you have some good points but I think there is desperation when you have big companies giving away full scenes on the hope some will join after jerking off to their stuff for free.

Yea, I agree. I'm still trying to figure out that business model?
Own a tube site, and a "per minute" site?

I guess it works if you ONLY give a tease, but they don't?
I dunno, seems counter productive to me..

[EmporerEJ]

Look Im not saying they shouldnt profit, they should...what I am saying is market your product to your target market stop trying to be everything to everyone...it doesnt work.

If you want to be a fan show dont rape your exhibitors, you need them to survive...as Adult Expo is finding out.

If you want to be a trade show keep the fans out, or at least limit it to those willing to make an effort to pretend to be legit....Those guys sometimes do get in the biz....I did.

BTW I like Cybernet Expo I think it is one of the better shows but I cant justify going to SFO for it

I'm with you on "Rape the exhibitors." Main reason we don't exhibit.
Charge us $3K, have to deal with the teamsters, who, I'm sorry, were downright rude, offensive, and abusive, and then, the crem d'la crem, don't allow us to demonstrate our product with adult content.
It was an ADULT show, and we couldn't run an adult video on the screen.
What a joke.

On the other hand...Canada LOVED us. Price was CHEAP, fans were all VERY polite, other exhibitors were VERY polite, and show managment was very accomodating.

No American cheese for my sandwich.......but hey, what can you do? When is Rome......

[tony404]

Yea, I agree. I'm still trying to figure out that business model?
Own a tube site, and a "per minute" site?

I guess it works if you ONLY give a tease, but they don't?
I dunno, seems counter productive to me..

I own paysites and have some clips for sale stores. I agree with you, I cant figure out the business model of giving it all away. I think its because its not a business model.

[EmporerEJ]

I own paysites and have some clips for sale stores. I agree with you, I cant figure out the business model of giving it all away. I think its because its not a business model.

I GOT IT!

The head of Vivid just said so, on CNBC. (They are re-running the Porn/pleasure special, probably or ratings...THEY -CNBC- Know their business model!)

Anyhow, Steven, (head of vivd, who one time sued AEBN's Tube site for having their content on it, then, later on, made a deal with them to put their content on their tube site......) well, he said "Who knows, maybe some day we'll be giving away our content for free to sell advertising on our website."

Okeee.....dokeee.....

How d'yall feel about that?

[gonzo]

In my opinion I think Steve likes publicity for the sake of publicity.

Ive been told bad press is better than no press at all.

[EmporerEJ]

In my opinion I think Steve likes publicity for the sake of publicity.

Ive been told bad press is better than no press at all.

T'is true....was ever so.
:whistling

[miz_wright]

I GOT IT!

The head of Vivid just said so, on CNBC. (They are re-running the Porn/pleasure special, probably or ratings...THEY -CNBC- Know their business model!)

Anyhow, Steven, (head of vivd, who one time sued AEBN's Tube site for having their content on it, then, later on, made a deal with them to put their content on their tube site......) well, he said "Who knows, maybe some day we'll be giving away our content for free to sell advertising on our website."

Okeee.....dokeee.....

How d'yall feel about that?

Hasn't that pretty much been the big complaint against certain industry players? The buying of that advertising space?

Off topic, but I would expect to start seeing that bleed off.

[RawAlex]

Hasn't that pretty much been the big complaint against certain industry players? The buying of that advertising space?

Off topic, but I would expect to start seeing that bleed off.

It is why his comment is so outrageous, because Vivid in theory is at the TOP of the food chain, not the bottom. They should be the ones buying banner spots from others, not selling them. If Vivid is using their content to only sell dating sites and push penis pills, then you know that there isn't any money left in porn.

[miz_wright]

It is why his comment is so outrageous, because Vivid in theory is at the TOP of the food chain, not the bottom. They should be the ones buying banner spots from others, not selling them. If Vivid is using their content to only sell dating sites and push penis pills, then you know that there isn't any money left in porn.

I'm not seeing where you get Hirsch using his content to push penis pills, but ok.

[RawAlex]

I'm not seeing where you get Hirsch using his content to push penis pills, but ok.

If he is going to sell advertising on porn sites, what exactly do you think they would be pushing? Coca Cola isn't lining up to be on the vivid site. What else is there?

[EmporerEJ]

If he is going to sell advertising on porn sites, what exactly do you think they would be pushing? Coca Cola isn't lining up to be on the vivid site. What else is there?

They seem to have been working hard to build the "Vivid Lifestyle" (Read "Playboy" brand wanna be here)

Then, you'd be buying your Vivid underoos.

[miz_wright]

If he is going to sell advertising on porn sites, what exactly do you think they would be pushing? Coca Cola isn't lining up to be on the vivid site. What else is there?

With regard to the specific case pointed to up thread, he isn't. He's simply changing his use of existing promotional material for vetted traffic to his content and program.

Coca-Cola has broad level investorships to concern itself with in a way most adult companies don't.

[EmporerEJ]

With regard to the specific case pointed to up thread, he isn't. He's simply changing his use of existing promotional material for vetted traffic to his content and program.

Coca-Cola has broad level investorships to concern itself with in a way most adult companies don't.

Who knows....maybe they'll be smoking and pushing "Vivid-cigs."

:whistling

[gonzo]

I fear this thread will come to an untimely end . . .

As predicted...

Anyone seen a date for the 2010 show anywhere?

[JFK]

As predicted...

Anyone seen a date for the 2010 show anywhere?

Actually, no I have not ?:scratchin

[RawAlex]

Just checked the AVN sites, nothing past this last show. Las Vegas is still 2009.

I don't remember if I mentioned, but I got hit up already about a month ago to buy a "cheaper" pre-registration badge for AEE. I would find it interesting that AEE is already taking registrations and yet the web show that runs at almost the same time is nowhere to be seen.

Perhaps AVN and XBiz has deep in negotiations right now. Secrets, you know?

[JFK]

Just checked the AVN sites, nothing past this last show. Las Vegas is still 2009.

I don't remember if I mentioned, but I got hit up already about a month ago to buy a "cheaper" pre-registration badge for AEE. I would find it interesting that AEE is already taking registrations and yet the web show that runs at almost the same time is nowhere to be seen.

Perhaps AVN and XBiz has deep in negotiations right now. Secrets, you know?

just an fyi, AEE is not run by AVN, its licensed out;)

[RawAlex]

just an fyi, AEE is not run by AVN, its licensed out;)

Thus explaining the difference and why they can't seem to get A and B together in one place. Perhaps the people running AEE would like to run a webmaster show for the 2 days before AEE opens? ;)

[Hell Puppy]

Look, I appreciate your opinion, but I just can't agree. I've never heard of a trade show put on "Not for profit." Sounds more like you are having "a meeting." Or maybe a sewing group?
You could put your own show/summit, on maybe?

And hell yes, it's about a bigger piece of pie. And I DON'T agree with you on "Shrinking pie." Maybe from your seat?

The adult industry has STEADILY grown since the mid 80's when I started in in it?

And you want to know about something new...something that "grows the pie?"
What the hell have I been doing for the past 9 years?
I invented the Virtual Sex Machine, and created an enitrely NEW channel to RESELL the "Pie" (Content...new or old, is NEW to the VR market,) in.
Don't blame me if some people can't see it. "Others" seem to get it as we are now beginning to see "Knock offs," or put more kindly for the benefit of others here, "similar players in the VR field."

I think you're missing my points here...

"Not for profit" on a show...of course the idea is to make money, but the money isn't coming from attendee badges, exhibitor fees, sponsorships, advertising, etc as is the typical model. What I'm referring to are things like the shows Oracle or SAP do.

They MAY or may not make a profit off the show itself, that's incidental. What they're looking to do is see all of their customers and business partners grow and thus buy more of their core product. They're in business to make money off their core products not shows.

As for the shrinking pie...anyone really think there's as much money coming into the adult web in 2009 as there was in say 2002? I think page views, users and every other metric are up....they're WAY up, but we're giving a lot away.

DEMAND for our product is high as ever. ACCESSIBILITY and ease of distribution, also better than it's ever been. People have privacy, convenience, easy of use, and heck with today's cable modem speeds quality of the streams is getting better all the time.

But for reasons we're all aware of, it's harder and harder to get a user to trust us with their credit card number. The people who should be our best customers, the guys who have disposable income and are free with their credit card get taught a lesson as soon as they happen across the wrong site. Unfortunately this doesn't take long.

[EmporerEJ]

I think you're missing my points here...

"Not for profit" on a show...of course the idea is to make money, but the money isn't coming from attendee badges, exhibitor fees, sponsorships, advertising, etc as is the typical model. What I'm referring to are things like the shows Oracle or SAP do.

They MAY or may not make a profit off the show itself, that's incidental. What they're looking to do is see all of their customers and business partners grow and thus buy more of their core product. They're in business to make money off their core products not shows.

As for the shrinking pie...anyone really think there's as much money coming into the adult web in 2009 as there was in say 2002? I think page views, users and every other metric are up....they're WAY up, but we're giving a lot away.

DEMAND for our product is high as ever. ACCESSIBILITY and ease of distribution, also better than it's ever been. People have privacy, convenience, easy of use, and heck with today's cable modem speeds quality of the streams is getting better all the time.

But for reasons we're all aware of, it's harder and harder to get a user to trust us with their credit card number. The people who should be our best customers, the guys who have disposable income and are free with their credit card get taught a lesson as soon as they happen across the wrong site. Unfortunately this doesn't take long.

Again...we'll have to agree to disagree on the show thing.
I think $200 entrance is too high, but i don't have a problem with some kind of "gate fee" to keep the squirrels out.

As for the industry....hey, the industry did it to itself.
Again, I refer to the article I wrote back in 2001, (And being the arrogant bastard I am, saying I told you so.)

AVN Article- ...Sleeping Sex Industry (http://vrinnovations.com/Newslinks/magazines/AVNOnline72001.htm)

And all those scam games, people played, hurt us all. Fortunately, we ship a durable good, with a signature, so we don't have those same kind of problems. Our customer feel a bit better knowing they'll get a box fro the UPS man, or they could do a charge back. We have no problem with that.

For the decent folk, like most here, I feel bad they have to put up with this crap. Many of the people here have been around for years, like me. For the scammers, I have NO pity. I hope they fry for what they've done to us all. (See the august talk back in XBiz (Print) magazine for my VERY open opinion on THAT.)

[tony404]

got life extension magazine today. they are having a 3 day conference in fl at the westin ft lauderdale room rates are $89 a night. That says it all. adult webmasters are the only ones to pay inflated hotel prices in the middle of summer in fl. lol

[EmporerEJ]

got life extension magazine today. they are having a 3 day conference in fl at the westin ft lauderdale room rates are $89 a night. That says it all. adult webmasters are the only ones to pay inflated hotel prices in the middle of summer in fl. lol

HEARD THAT!

So, what's the deal.....you buying an ice cube tray?

[RawAlex]

got life extension magazine today. they are having a 3 day conference in fl at the westin ft lauderdale room rates are $89 a night. That says it all. adult webmasters are the only ones to pay inflated hotel prices in the middle of summer in fl. lol

I think in some ways it comes from a two-fold problem for adult conventions.

The first year in Florida, it wasn't specifically a "whole hotel" takeover, which lead to some situations, particuarly on the first and last day of the show. So one of the issues is that Internext is forced to pretty much assure the hotel of a complete sellout. So room rates are calculated to make sure that AVN isn't underwater even if only 75% of the rooms sell.

Now, as for comparing the westin to the diplomat, I just checked Expedia for rates (in canadian dollars) for next month for 5 days. Diplomat, cheap room is $301 a night, westin is $110. So on that scale, (almost 3 times) the room rates for Internext are actually in keeping with the relative room rates in Florida.

When Internext signed the long term agreements, they were selling out the show, offloading people to the hotel by the golf course, and even pointing people to cheaper properties in the area. The show was a massive oversold deal that had no chance of failure in the near future. However, the 2009 summer show was very lightly attended (you could book a standard room the morning of the show), and images from the show indicate that the crowd was very light. I remember when the showroom floor upstairs was filled, the pool bar was crowded, and basically the property was swarming with people. This last show honestly looked like less than half that crowd, and without a show floor, much of the game is given over to social rather than more organized events.

So the prices of the hotel rooms are in line, but perhaps at this point the property is well beyond what the vast majority of people are willing to pay. The Playahs (including the Iporn people, I gather) can afford to pay the price, but the average webmaster and small program owner will have a very hard time to justify paying out a couple of thousand dollars, only to end up in a place where they can't find anyone they really would like to meet, because there is no show floor, no real events, and just people wandering around in bathing suits getting drunk.

With AVN Chris out the door, perhaps someone can give this show (and vegas) a serious, sober second thought and come up with a show that is more conducive to getting business done.

[tony404]

I think in some ways it comes from a two-fold problem for adult conventions.

The first year in Florida, it wasn't specifically a "whole hotel" takeover, which lead to some situations, particuarly on the first and last day of the show. So one of the issues is that Internext is forced to pretty much assure the hotel of a complete sellout. So room rates are calculated to make sure that AVN isn't underwater even if only 75% of the rooms sell.

Now, as for comparing the westin to the diplomat, I just checked Expedia for rates (in canadian dollars) for next month for 5 days. Diplomat, cheap room is $301 a night, westin is $110. So on that scale, (almost 3 times) the room rates for Internext are actually in keeping with the relative room rates in Florida.

When Internext signed the long term agreements, they were selling out the show, offloading people to the hotel by the golf course, and even pointing people to cheaper properties in the area. The show was a massive oversold deal that had no chance of failure in the near future. However, the 2009 summer show was very lightly attended (you could book a standard room the morning of the show), and images from the show indicate that the crowd was very light. I remember when the showroom floor upstairs was filled, the pool bar was crowded, and basically the property was swarming with people. This last show honestly looked like less than half that crowd, and without a show floor, much of the game is given over to social rather than more organized events. and as far as vegas I dont think it has really sunk in for them. Chris was talking how vegas will be the biggest show ever. its like wake up those days are over.

So the prices of the hotel rooms are in line, but perhaps at this point the property is well beyond what the vast majority of people are willing to pay. The Playahs (including the Iporn people, I gather) can afford to pay the price, but the average webmaster and small program owner will have a very hard time to justify paying out a couple of thousand dollars, only to end up in a place where they can't find anyone they really would like to meet, because there is no show floor, no real events, and just people wandering around in bathing suits getting drunk.

With AVN Chris out the door, perhaps someone can give this show (and vegas) a serious, sober second thought and come up with a show that is more conducive to getting business done.

Good points.Also why do they have to take over a whole hotel? Is it really necessary to have half naked models running around, like we dont look at this enough all day long. its like they all wanted to be rock stars and the shows are the excuse. It shouldnt be about being rockstars it should be about being business people. The shows are really like a shining example of whats wrong with adult. Its all on flash and the quick buck and being a pimp no substance or longterm viability.I read on the jungle someone saying vegas will be the biggest show ever its like wake the fuck up those days are over.

[EmporerEJ]

Good points.Also why do they have to take over a whole hotel? Is it really necessary to have half naked models running around, like we dont look at this enough all day long. its like they all wanted to be rock stars and the shows are the excuse. It shouldnt be about being rockstars it should be about being business people. The shows are really like a shining example of whats wrong with adult. Its all on flash and the quick buck and being a pimp no substance or longterm viability.I read on the jungle someone saying vegas will be the biggest show ever its like wake the fuck up those days are over.

Geeez.....let's not go all "doom & Gloom" here.....
I'm not staring at the bottom of the bottle.
They said the same bullshit in the late 80's after the meese commission. So please, don't be surprised when I don't start lamenting the failure of the adult industry.

I'm not saying there isn't going to be a weed out of the slackers......but sex isn't going anywhere. And selling it is only getting better, and more widespread.

Hell, I remember the days when we worried everyday the cops were gonna bust one of my stores for the "back room." They picked at random. Got a store about 3 miles down the road from me. Too close for comfort.

When was the last time they busted a video store?

[RawAlex]

Good points.Also why do they have to take over a whole hotel? Is it really necessary to have half naked models running around, like we dont look at this enough all day long. its like they all wanted to be rock stars and the shows are the excuse. It shouldnt be about being rockstars it should be about being business people. The shows are really like a shining example of whats wrong with adult. Its all on flash and the quick buck and being a pimp no substance or longterm viability.I read on the jungle someone saying vegas will be the biggest show ever its like wake the fuck up those days are over.

Alas, one of the problems of these shows is that people apparently can't control themselves, and as a result, "public nudity" is a real issue. It does come a bit from the young guys, ton of money thing, it also comes from a number of people in the business who honestly couldn't get laid in a whore house with a fist full of hundreds.

More than anything, it's because the conventions stopped being conventions, and started being all about the parties, the drunken adventures, etc. The first few years of IA / Internext (florida and vegas) the program owners and principal players spend their days on the show floors, had dinner with a couple of friends, and attended the cocktails. By 2004 or so, the program owners were nowhere to be found, often partying all night and then disappearing all day, running their own parties offsite, many of them not even bothering to get show badges. The show floor in Vegas now is a joke, and in Florida, it is gone entirely. Based on the reports I got, it was almost useless in Florida this time to try to find many people before 3 or 4 in the afternoon. That isn't conducive to doing business.

I think it comes down to this: Few of the players really want to talk business with anyone except their bros, because they are using dishonest business methods, shaving, cross sales, spamming, dishonest advertising, and many, many other sneaking and shitty things to make a living, so they are working on the "down low" of porn marketing. They don't want to talk to anyone that might actually ask them what the fuck they are doing. So instead, they come to the shows, hide out with their bros, take lots of pictures, and act like they met everyone. It's PR at it's very worst.

AVN shows are like the Zoo at this point - both seriously lacking in webmasters, and seriously lacking in any true relationship to the adult industry.

[gonzo]

I think it comes down to this: Few of the players really want to talk business with anyone except their bros, because they are using dishonest business methods, shaving, cross sales, spamming, dishonest advertising, and many, many other sneaking and shitty things to make a living, so they are working on the "down low" of porn marketing. They don't want to talk to anyone that might actually ask them what the fuck they are doing. So instead, they come to the shows, hide out with their bros, take lots of pictures, and act like they met everyone. It's PR at it's very worst.

AVN shows are like the Zoo at this point - both seriously lacking in webmasters, and seriously lacking in any true relationship to the adult industry.

:-pearl::-pearl::-pearl::-pearl::-pearl:

Alec.... Jay heres a void for both of you guys to step up to with your shows. Step up to the mike... Chris is off with SE Guru playing spin the needle.

Your turn on the mic.

[Hell Puppy]

got life extension magazine today. they are having a 3 day conference in fl at the westin ft lauderdale room rates are $89 a night. That says it all. adult webmasters are the only ones to pay inflated hotel prices in the middle of summer in fl. lol


who is sponsoring the urinals?

[gonzo]

who is sponsoring the urinals?
Whos spondoring the toilet paper in the rooms so we can get ass cancer from the ink?

[miz_wright]

Believe it or not, I have breakfast meetings at every show. I tend to set up my major meetings between 8 am and 11 am with add-ons throughout the rest of the day.

Sure there are people who will treat it like a vacation or not get up til 3 pm or act like "ballas" -- I don't think the problem is endemic to the shows - AVN and xBiz have provided what has been asked for (who's heard all the bitching when there aren't "enough" parties? *raises hand*). I think the biggest problem is that people stopped being as hungry, and the show putter-onners are convenient scapegoats.

There's still a shit tonne of business to be done at a show, if one is hungry and looks for it.

[RawAlex]

There's still a shit tonne of business to be done at a show, if one is hungry and looks for it.

The same can be said for any situation, online, on the phone, whatever.

However, shows are suppose to (IMHO) serve up that business pretty much right in front of you, and take steps to make it possible for you to actually do business. Cybernet in it's current form does a good job with things like Corridor Cruising, and other events have speed networking or other events that promote meeting new people.

What really always makes me laugh is after a show, you say "Gee, I never saw (insert playah name here) at the show", and then a few days later they are on the Zoo posting all their "show" pictures. When you look at the pictures, you realize they really weren't at the show, they just happened to be in the same city (and same hotel) as the show at the same time. Most of their pics are private parties, limo shots, nightclub VIPs, drunken shots by the pool at 4am, etc. Most of them never have a single actual "at the show" picture, except perhaps poolside in Florida grabbing some chick's ass.

So even if you wanted to do business with these people, meet them, discussion whatever, it is impossible. At best, you get a "rep" that has no authority to do anything, often has little true knowledge of the product, and certainly can't trade traffic, links, or whatever of their own accord. I would have better luck reaching the "playah" via email or ICQ than I would being at the show.

In the end, the shows fail because parties are nice, but they are hard to bottom line justify.

[EmporerEJ]

Believe it or not, I have breakfast meetings at every show. I tend to set up my major meetings between 8 am and 11 am with add-ons throughout the rest of the day.

.

Yea.....vacation or not, I'm not doing business meetings at 8am in the morning.
I'm in the Adult business.

3am? No problem
6am? No problem, (but I'm starting to get fuzzy.......)

7am-noon- you are talking to yourself


Unless of course, I travel to the west coast....then I can function on the "normal" (And who decided that anyhow?) business hours.

[tony404]

Believe it or not, I have breakfast meetings at every show. I tend to set up my major meetings between 8 am and 11 am with add-ons throughout the rest of the day.

Sure there are people who will treat it like a vacation or not get up til 3 pm or act like "ballas" -- I don't think the problem is endemic to the shows - AVN and xBiz have provided what has been asked for (who's heard all the bitching when there aren't "enough" parties? *raises hand*). I think the biggest problem is that people stopped being as hungry, and the show putter-onners are convenient scapegoats.

There's still a shit tonne of business to be done at a show, if one is hungry and looks for it.

When you think about it. Its so not cost effective to have to go to shows to have meetings that could be handled on phone or internet. Its not like your repping a company thats new. AEBN is the biggest at what they do. So its not like you are going to run into someone who doesnt know who your company is and works in adult. And if they dont know chances are they have no traffic and are worthless.

[miz_wright]

Yea.....vacation or not, I'm not doing business meetings at 8am in the morning.
I'm in the Adult business.

3am? No problem
6am? No problem, (but I'm starting to get fuzzy.......)

7am-noon- you are talking to yourself


Unless of course, I travel to the west coast....then I can function on the "normal" (And who decided that anyhow?) business hours.

And, being self-employed, that is your prerogative. I fond those to be very productive hours for me. On the other hand, I am kind of known for being the crazy-needs-no-sleep woman, 'cos I am generally up by 6.30 am to attend office business and going to sleep around 4 am.

When you think about it. Its so not cost effective to have to go to shows to have meetings that could be handled on phone or internet. Its not like your repping a company thats new. AEBN is the biggest at what they do. So its not like you are going to run into someone who doesnt know who your company is and works in adult. And if they dont know chances are they have no traffic and are worthless.

Tony - thank you for the kind words about the company. I will freely admit I run into people who have no idea who we are with some regularity. And some of those end up being incredibly valuable contacts *shrug*

[Toby]

Tony, I have to disagree. There are just some things that are more effectively handled face to face where each person can see the facial expressions, body language etc. of the person they're talking with. Also, there are things that are said face to face that just wouldn't be mentioned via email, ICQ or over the phone. Maybe I'm a bit old school in this regard, but being able to look someone in the eye as you shake their hand goes a long way to establishing a trust factor.

In my case, as strictly an affiliate webmaster, being at the shows demonstrates I'm not some surfmaster wannabe living in Mom's basement doing this on the side.

Also, as I've mentioned in the past. Shows for me isn't strictly about doing business. I also get some new perspectives and some fresh ideas just from the interaction with others that you just don't get from boards or other online communication.

You really should watch Liz work a show just once. She'll talk to more people before lunch on the first day than I will during the whole show. If she didn't bring in enough new and additional business to justify the cost of sending her to shows I'm sure AEBN would have stopped sending her ages ago. They've never been one of those companies that toss money around wildly just to make a splash.

[donnylong]

Trade Shows = whore, hookers, beer and whores, hookers and beer :wnw:

[Cleo]

Trade Shows = whore, hookers, beer and whores, hookers and beer :wnw:
And there is the problem.

Oddly I have no interest in hookers, whores or beer.

[tony404]

Tony, I have to disagree. There are just some things that are more effectively handled face to face where each person can see the facial expressions, body language etc. of the person they're talking with. Also, there are things that are said face to face that just wouldn't be mentioned via email, ICQ or over the phone. Maybe I'm a bit old school in this regard, but being able to look someone in the eye as you shake their hand goes a long way to establishing a trust factor.

In my case, as strictly an affiliate webmaster, being at the shows demonstrates I'm not some surfmaster wannabe living in Mom's basement doing this on the side.

Also, as I've mentioned in the past. Shows for me isn't strictly about doing business. I also get some new perspectives and some fresh ideas just from the interaction with others that you just don't get from boards or other online communication.

You really should watch Liz work a show just once. She'll talk to more people before lunch on the first day than I will during the whole show. If she didn't bring in enough new and additional business to justify the cost of sending her to shows I'm sure AEBN would have stopped sending her ages ago. They've never been one of those companies that toss money around wildly just to make a splash.

I placed boardroom level executives as a head hunter and never met anyone it was all on the phone. One of my biggest clients who paid over $100k in fees to this day I dont know what he looks like. and I found him making cold calls from a directory.I can tell you about face to face at webmaster access atl the ceo ibill shook my hand and looked me straight in the eye and told me I was with a winner.

[EmporerEJ]

......I can tell you about face to face at webmaster access atl the ceo ibill shook my hand and looked me straight in the eye and told me I was with a winner.

And you were.....He won all the marbles, then ran off with them and started an IPTV company that disappeared as quickly as it showed up.


:waving: