Democratisation of Media

[miz_wright]

Democratisation of media

A while back, I subscribed to the Lefsetz Letter. Bob Lefsetz is some dude that's somehow involved in the music industry - I really can't tell you much more than that, 'cos I really can't be bothered to find out (tho I suspect if you're really curious, Google can probably help you out).

Anyhow.

Every day, I get an email - or five - from this guy, wherein he talks about all kinda stuff. The state of the music industry is generally at the crux of it, but sometimes it's about TicketRaper, sometimes it's about how artists can get ahead, sometimes it's about why artists are transcendent experiences to see live, sometimes it's about how the industry should make the music more accessible.

In one of the recent letters, there was this bit of insight:

"Everyone deals with their customers or they pay the price... This business is upside down. It believes it's in business with itself, when truly it's in business with its customers!"

And I was pulled up short, because this is exactly what I have been thinking about the industry I float around the fringes of. It seems endemic in the thought processes of much of the porn world.

All too often, in various discussions, I get a remarkably similar response to that Lefstez mentions in Friday's letter: we often forget who we are in business for.

Interesting.

When I talk to porn folk, there is all too often an idea that the customer is wrong - because we [read: the industry] are doing it are doing it this way, and the user wants to get it that way.

I know I'm still pretty new to this game, but... While I appreciate our job is to train the consumer to behave in certain ways, there are certain behaviours that have been ingrained in the user at this point. We won't be able to reverse that tide completely, but we can hope to perhaps divert them into profitable methodologies.

The end-user/ client/ customer ultimately has a lot more say in how things grow now than they did 10 years ago - much less 30 years ago. So why continue to try to use a mode of business that hasn't been working and has been outdated for years, just because it's what you used to know worked? Build new paradigms and create a new business model that gives users what they want. The ways we used to monetise content doesn't work - a user can get free content pretty much any day and from a multitude of sources. So let's figure out a way to create a reason to buy. They are out there. Where is the unique angle that makes it worth while for the user to open his/her wallet? Amanda Palmer - say what you will about her music, the woman's a helluva free thinker - has done this by giving her fans straight up personal interaction, holding late night webcam chats and auctions of her random stuff. Filmed smut clearly can't do the same thing, but there has to be an accounting somewhere for the idea that the fans are people too, and just 'cos they like to beat their meat or jill off doesn't make them shitty people.

And right now our industry, by and large, seems to believe our customers are out to rip us off. They're not. But they ARE consumers - and the consumer's job is to get the best price available. We do it when we shop - why do we expect our customers to be any different?

The music industry has fucked its fans for years by holding back blocks of tickets and jacking the prices of live shows to the stratosphere and selling $0.30 CDs for $15 that the artist never sees. Pr0n does a lot of the same stuff by holding DVD prices at a ridiculously inflated price for years (used to go into the store, and a smut flick was gonna run me $50 on DVD. What is that about?).

There are all too many similarities between the various branches of the entertainment complex - music, movies, smut - and every one is hurting. Why not learn from the mistakes we see in other sectors and improve our [read: the industry] product, our [read: the industry] delivery, and avoid coming to a place in the road like the RIAA has?


"... but you do have to respond to people's problems."

Yeh, exactly, Mr. Lefsetz. That's what I keep saying. Wouldn't it be nice if they would listen sometimes? There are hundreds of ways we could make entertainment across the spectrum better for all involved.

Profits always make it hard to think rationally though, I suppose. I kinda wish more people would realise that when you do a thing the right way, the profits follow - instead, we as a whole go for profit first, and then realise that the way we went about it cuts a lot of future growth out from under us all.

Doesn't anyone else remember the story about the golden eggs anymore?

[EmporerEJ]

While I appreciate your drawing a parallel between the recording industry, and the adult industry, there are several important differences.

One very important one, is, no one walked into a record store, and drug everyone away in cuffs, just for doing business. For those of us in the adult business in the 70's, (not me) and 80's (me,) this was a very real, and very imminent threat.
Every product/movie sold had a small "legal fund" fee "built in."

It's not as bad now, but the threat is still there, and VERY real. Invisible, secret name, in their mom's basement people think they are hidden, and safe. But real, visible companies have exposure on this today. Not only from local authorities, (usually worse,) but from the fed, and every other states' attorney general.

On the other hand, I'm constantly amazed at the difference in "price" the online industry charges for their content. I find your comparison specifically confusing.

While the sell through market sold adult DVDs for $50, (VHS tapes for about the same years ago as high as $89.98) the non adult industry followed suit. In the VHS days, new movies sold for $89.98, dealer cost about $72, with a ROI at about 45 days for rental stores.

Now, at least, DVDs sell for about $20, $17 wholesale, with an ROI at about 5 days by blockbuster standards.

But in the adult biz, you have online companies selling videos by the minute. Isn't that what your company does? And how much does that break down to, with a 90 minute movie? How about watching the second time? Do they pay again? And, again?

Even with a $50 DVD, it's a better deal. Once they own it, they own it, and can watch as often as they like....without pressure, and without a clock ticking in the back of their heads.

For the poor guy trying to "rub one out," which is the better deal?

And why is anyone surprised that he goes after all the free content he can watch?

Remember, there is a TON of content from the 70's, and 80's that has already been capitalized, over and over again. at this point, ANY amount of money earned on it is gravy.

[miz_wright]

There are major differences in the industries, yes - but the similarities I cite are accurate. The mainstream entertainment complexes are fighting the same battles against piracy the adult industry is.

The primary difference (other than the content itself) is how that content is consumed: I know very few people who watch the same skin flick over and over and over again as they will listen to a CD repeatedly or watch a summer blockbuster. In general, the porn consumer wants to get his nut to something different each time - we often say the fantasy is the selling point, and a major part of the fantasy is the variety available in content that isn't available in our shoppers' lives. As such, a PPM opportunity makes sense - s/he's not having to pay for the scenes that are filler, and can filter viewing options to best meet the needs of the moment.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I'm going to listen to Zeppelin 2 a helluva lot more than I'm going to watch Behind The Green Door (and I come back to the other thread about story line, here as well). So why would I pay for a whole fuck flick that I may - at most - watch once? If I want to do that, I certainly can - I can go to my neighbourhood smut shop and pick up a copy of the DVD or I can download the whole film via AEBN, if that's what tickles my pickle. But for years, I couldn't RENT a stroke film unless I wanted to leave my credit card and a ridiculous deposit with that creepy guy - and I had no choice but to buy it.

Mainstream shops had the same purchase prices, but could subsidise them through rentals - and I don't care if my boss pulls my financial statements and sees Blockbuster. I care a LOT, though, if I am Joe HighschoolTeacher, and I have a $150 deposit on hold ad Al's Stroke Shack. When VHS tapes came down in price, it was - in the past - about 8 months after the rental period had begun.

DVDs hit the market with an incredibly different pricing scheme, and as an industry, we weren't quite prepared for that.

[softball]

One very important one, is, no one walked into a record store, and drug everyone away in cuffs, just for doing business.

Selling and performing rock and roll, race records, nigger music (even ragtime) landed a lot of people in jail, or worse. Much worse than porn, EJ. Lives and careers and families were ruined on the flimsiest of excuses. Music is littered with victims and casualties.

[EmporerEJ]

Selling and performing rock and roll, race records, nigger music (even ragtime) landed a lot of people in jail, or worse. Much worse than porn, EJ. Lives and careers and families were ruined on the flimsiest of excuses. Music is littered with victims and casualties.

No, I'm afraid not. I know you love to argue, and I generally ignore you. But you call me out specifically here. Adult material has had much more in the way of arrest and ruin that the music industry. (And if you leave out the racial factor, the ratio goes WAY up.)
The number of video store owners arrested, put out of business, fined, restricted, was a weekly column in the video industry trade journals. This was tens and hundreds in the 80's, and it goes on today.
Not so much in the record industry, especially today.
When was the last arrest for singing a song?

Last video store raided, was within the past few days.

[softball]

Everyone deals with their customers or they pay the price... This business is upside down. It believes it's in business with itself, when truly it's in business with its customers!"

I have been prattling on about this for over a decade with tgp's and whatever they are morphing into. Its like a snake swallowing its tail. No wealth is created nor brought within. The battle cry has never been "Import or die". Blind links to move traffic around just piss off prospective "customers" (I have never liked the term surfer...call them what you would like them to be). This business is polluted with moron tgp owners who think that traffic is "King", which I think is the ultimate unprofitable oxymoron. Great traffic is "King" as is great "Content". But in our business, the unwashed masses have never understood what great traffic is....It is great marketing. The "traffic" is irrelevant....its how the eyeballs get to the appropriate content.
The old school guys that frequented these boards never did have clue, and lots believed them. Crooked, misdirected traffic...like dialer and any other scam bulllshit was not marketing. It was and is grifting. The heroes of this industry were grifters....con men. They made out and they made money. Not with skill, but with graft. Its like drug dealers. It never took any talent, because it is now becoming patently obvious that these fellas had none.
Now the business is suffering. A bit circuitous, but the logic is clear. They treated customers like surfers, ripped off millions, and left the building.

[softball]

No, I'm afraid not. I know you love to argue, and I generally ignore you. But you call me out specifically here. Adult material has had much more in the way of arrest and ruin that the music industry. (And if you leave out the racial factor, the ratio goes WAY up.)
The number of video store owners arrested, put out of business, fined, restricted, was a weekly column in the video industry trade journals. This was tens and hundreds in the 80's, and it goes on today.
Not so much in the record industry, especially today.
When was the last arrest for singing a song?

Last video store raided, was within the past few days.
Porn, like music, is just becoming mainstream. I am sure the raids go on, but hell, I think that what guys like Jerry Lee went through blows that away.

[EmporerEJ]

There are major differences in the industries, yes - but the similarities I cite are accurate. The mainstream entertainment complexes are fighting the same battles against piracy the adult industry is.

The primary difference (other than the content itself) is how that content is consumed: I know very few people who watch the same skin flick over and over and over again as they will listen to a CD repeatedly or watch a summer blockbuster. In general, the porn consumer wants to get his nut to something different each time - we often say the fantasy is the selling point, and a major part of the fantasy is the variety available in content that isn't available in our shoppers' lives. As such, a PPM opportunity makes sense - s/he's not having to pay for the scenes that are filler, and can filter viewing options to best meet the needs of the moment.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I'm going to listen to Zeppelin 2 a helluva lot more than I'm going to watch Behind The Green Door (and I come back to the other thread about story line, here as well). So why would I pay for a whole fuck flick that I may - at most - watch once? If I want to do that, I certainly can - I can go to my neighborhood smut shop and pick up a copy of the DVD or I can download the whole film via AEBN, if that's what tickles my pickle. But for years, I couldn't RENT a stroke film unless I wanted to leave my credit card and a ridiculous deposit with that creepy guy - and I had no choice but to buy it.

Mainstream shops had the same purchase prices, but could subsidise them through rentals - and I don't care if my boss pulls my financial statements and sees Blockbuster. I care a LOT, though, if I am Joe HighschoolTeacher, and I have a $150 deposit on hold ad Al's Stroke Shack. When VHS tapes came down in price, it was - in the past - about 8 months after the rental period had begun.

DVDs hit the market with an incredibly different pricing scheme, and as an industry, we weren't quite prepared for that.

So let's see...you're defending the pay per minute model? At the same time decrying the industry for not listening?
so, tell me, on this model, how much does one pay per minute for the 90 minute movie? About the same as what you pay to buy the DVD. And you're restricted to where you can watch it, and you certainly can't sell that non-DVD when you are done with it. And again, you are acutely aware of that ticking clock.

If it's just scenes they want, that may be why everyone is screaming about the free "tube sites." Let's face it....how do they know "what scene" they want, until after they watch it at least once? or spend their "minutes" searching through it?
If this were truly a selling tool, you would have a way to compile prefernces....say "all scenes with Tera Patrick, and her husband."
Then, I see some advantage to this model. And it's not a new concept....."mix tapes" have been popular since the audio cassette was introduced. People made it clear what they wanted. Look at apple's itunes.

And you've traded "giving your credit card to the creepy guy behind the counter" with "giving your credit card number to a company over the internet that you may not know where they are, who they are, or what they may do with your card." (Speaking in general , of course, as you were.)

NONE of my stores EVER took a deposit, and you had no embarrassment. You had a membership card, so we could assure you were over 18, and we had a back room. But it was "regular video store" not a "jack shack"

We had disney too.

As for adult film use, this may be a different consumption method between men and women.
Men have "collections" of porn, that they like to watch, and rewatch. They aren't watching for the story, in most cases. They like to re-experience the same porn, over and over again.

But hey, you go with that same model if it works for you.

As for the industry "not being ready for it," big surprise. I would refer you to the article I wrote about that 8 years ago, July 2001, in AVNOnline:

http://vrinnovations.com/Newslinks/magazines/AVNOnline72001.htm

[miz_wright]

EJ, you're ahead of the market on many things - that doesn't mean the business as a whole is. AEBN launched a mobile site four years ago. It happens - there are always those who see what's coming and try to prepare for it. But until a level of critical mass is reached, it's simply playing Cassandra. You are one man, and though you appear to always be ahead of the game, one man is hardly a tipping point of critical mass across the industry as a whole.

I say this not to minimise your intelligence, because you are incredibly prescient. But the knowledge you've had and published and implemented hasn't always been embraced on a macro level, and that's where the fallacies begin to creep in.

Anywhere I give my credit card is dangerous - I have no idea what my waitress does with it when she walks away from my table. But I'm a lot less likely to be recognised by an anonymous card processor when I go to the Food Lion to buy my green beans than I am at the dingy shop on the corner - and I'm sure as fuck not getting leered at when I pick up Fashionistas online. And for a lot of people? That's the safety zone.

Perhaps you like collections - that's fine. Perhaps others don't (my partner will rarely put the same fuckflick in more than once; he may be an anomaly). There are options either way, is my point, but there is much more coming down the pike that we all need to be aware of. I'm not saying I have all the answers, nor am I holding up AEBN as the last bastion of answers in porn - though I think we all have to have some level of agreement that Scott Coffman is a brilliant man, when it comes to capitalising on markets as they break as a rule.

My point is the world is changing rapidly around us - technology half lives are incredibly brief now, and everyone has a lot to think about. I'm not excluding AEBN from this, nor am I singling any one out. I just think it's interesting food for thought from a consumer angle.

[miz_wright]

They treated customers like surfers, ripped off millions, and left the building.

So the question I am getting at is this: How do we* repair that damage to the customers' image of us? How do we get past the training we've given them that they will be taken for a ride down the shit highway?

Where do we add value to the content that makes it compelling again?

*user of 'we" indicates industry solidarity, not specific corporate affiliations, kthx. This is all LIZ thinking out loud.

[softball]

I would start directly with the traffic "managers" (and I use the term loosely). Fuck off with all the crapola, and get back to the basics. When you offer something, you are, in fact promising a service or product. When I click on a blonde girl with a black bra and high heels, deliver. Not a granny in a corset. When you break your promises as much as these guys have (wtf is a skim and why does it even exist?) you will lose your potential customer.
I like the concept of tgp 2 with honesty. Deliver on promises.
However, big sponors (big????not so sure anymore) encourage bad behaviour. However, if....and this is a big if....they were as smart as a bunch of Arabs in the middle of nowhere up to their Kafias in sand (opec), they would see opportunities in co operation like any other industry. XBiz awards and all that shite are pure and simple bullshit. They mean zero and they should fold their fucking tents. Those kinds of resources and centralization need to be redirected into sorting out the biz. GFY and Netpond (the current Titanic) JBM should have long past their sell by date. They contribute to the pretzel logic that is porn. The so called webmasters that post on those forums are not part of the solution. They are the problem.
Its a solution I have been screaming about for years and have been shut down every time. So I just dusted it off, and shook it out one more time.
The curious thing is that a few small steps would effect a rather large change.
I walk up a lot of mountains in my day to day and this eighty year old guy on telemark skis, on Mt. Baker told me, deep in a blizzard that the peak wasn't that high if you took small steps. We made it to height that I never thought possible and stood at the top up to our assholes in snow and I have never felt so good. So it is possible.

[tony404]

watch it only once? Guys dont work that way. When I used porn, I bought dirty debutantes 1 and used it over and over til I wore the tape out. lol That's where adult makes a mistake they think if I give a full scene or two away on a tube, they will jack off and automatically want more.When actually that guy could jerk off happily to that one scene for a long time.
Also we are very different than the music industry because we cant go on tour.
We have always remembered without the customer we are nothing. Most in adult have a very short term thinking so its fuck them and move on. I got a possible member write my wife asking her to promise they were no hidden prechecks when he signed up because he got fucked hard before.

[softball]

When I used porn, I bought dirty debutantes 1 and used it over and over til I wore the tape out. lol That's where adult makes a mistake they think if I give a full scene or two away on a tube, they will jack off and automatically want more.When actually that guy could jerk off happily to that one scene for a long time.
I think we tend to generalize on this subject. Some guys like red wine and others won't touch it. If you could answer this question with any amount of certainty, then you could make a lot of money.
I also believe that access is a key. What do you, as a potential customer, have access to? Some guys have no interest in hunting and pecking through miles of crap. When they find what they want, they will hang around for awhile. If you have a network of similar product that he feels safe in, he will migrate from site to site comfortably, removing the uncertainty of the nasty net. That is one of the strengths of aebn. Just one trusted click to keep on keepin on. I admire that business model.

[Toby]

This all became a critical issue for Internet porn when the rate of new customers entering the market slowed to well below the rate number that they were being driven away by 'unfriendly' biz practices. I can't say for sure where that tipping point was, but it's been on a downhill slope for quite some time. The difference now, is that the economy has made more people on the business side stop and take a serious look at things. Some have turned back to delivering a product with more value, but far more have turned to feeding on others in the industry rather than on customers. Every time I think maybe this industry is going to finally grow up and become more of a business I'm disappointed at the result. Still far too many in this biz that never had any experince in doing business. {heavy sigh}

[Hell Puppy]

Like Toby, I'm not seeing a lot of reasons to be optimistic.

The industry as a whole wont mature on it's own. It's been over a decade now, and you still best be careful where you surf without protection or use an actual credit card versus a virtual.

You cant really force it to be fixed.

Governments dont get it, and the net is international. The FTC moves so slow they're easily chalked up to 'cost of doing business' if you have a good scam. Visa has some teeth, but they're also slow and are essentially playing whack-a-mole.

The processors are in a position to do the makeover, enforce some decorum when dealing with customers, and brand sites they process for as "trustworthy". But I dont see it happening. Why? Simple economics. More work for less transactions.

I've often thought a coalition, cartel or something similar, branded around customer experience, trust, truth in advertising, etc could work. Think of it as the "good housekeeping" seal. Way way back in the day, Ynot actually did this with some success with "Ynot member" sites. But sooner or later when you try to organize a bunch of rebellious personalities, it's doomed to break down, and it did.

Basically the largest obstacle to any of this is overcoming the fact that trying to organize webmasters is like cat herding.

[softball]

I think herding cats would be a snap compared to webmasters. The real problem with this business is the low entry and maintenance cost. Because of webmaster boards, it has become many guys social life, so they actually don't care that they only earn a couple of hundred bucks a month. Their "friends" don't know that, the traffic spins, and bullshit continues. Netpond is a prime example. Tons of webmasters not getting paid and they are still posting. Advertising still happens. They are afraid to leave because they will lose their social life.
I know of no other business where people will work months for free, just to hang out. Personally the door would not hit me in the ass if the money dried up. This is not fun. This is business.

[miz_wright]

Like Toby, I'm not seeing a lot of reasons to be optimistic.

The industry as a whole wont mature on it's own. It's been over a decade now, and you still best be careful where you surf without protection or use an actual credit card versus a virtual.

You cant really force it to be fixed.

Governments dont get it, and the net is international. The FTC moves so slow they're easily chalked up to 'cost of doing business' if you have a good scam. Visa has some teeth, but they're also slow and are essentially playing whack-a-mole.

The processors are in a position to do the makeover, enforce some decorum when dealing with customers, and brand sites they process for as "trustworthy". But I dont see it happening. Why? Simple economics. More work for less transactions.

I've often thought a coalition, cartel or something similar, branded around customer experience, trust, truth in advertising, etc could work. Think of it as the "good housekeeping" seal. Way way back in the day, Ynot actually did this with some success with "Ynot member" sites. But sooner or later when you try to organize a bunch of rebellious personalities, it's doomed to break down, and it did.

Basically the largest obstacle to any of this is overcoming the fact that trying to organize webmasters is like cat herding.

You hit on something I was thinking about last night, HP - you say it's been over a decade now, and I'm thinking it makes sense we are where we are. The online adult industry is a tween - and I think we all know (if not by personal experience than by living in the world at large) that someone 10-12 years old may make some decisions that are remarkably prescient, and others that defy logic and reason. I see a lot of that in this particular realm as well.

I think we tend to generalize on this subject. Some guys like red wine and others won't touch it. If you could answer this question with any amount of certainty, then you could make a lot of money.
I also believe that access is a key. What do you, as a potential customer, have access to? Some guys have no interest in hunting and pecking through miles of crap. When they find what they want, they will hang around for awhile. If you have a network of similar product that he feels safe in, he will migrate from site to site comfortably, removing the uncertainty of the nasty net. That is one of the strengths of aebn. Just one trusted click to keep on keepin on. I admire that business model.

Thank you, Rhet.

Your remarks about generalisation are spot on to my mind - it's human nature to create a generalised view, because our minds are predisposed to find patterns. So any time a discernible pattern emerges, the natural tendency to is to wedge all things with similar attributes into that pattern, without regard to the unlike factors.

In this instance, we talk about consumption opportunity - some guys like a vast array of variety, others want to know where the pop shot is going to happen from familiarity. Some guys like Claudia Marie's cans, some like Jenna Haze's more modest endowments - some want chicks with dicks. Remembering that although there are some commonalities, but a wider array of disparities is going to be key in a much more 360 way going forward.

[tony404]

Like Toby, I'm not seeing a lot of reasons to be optimistic.

The industry as a whole wont mature on it's own. It's been over a decade now, and you still best be careful where you surf without protection or use an actual credit card versus a virtual.

You cant really force it to be fixed.

Governments dont get it, and the net is international. The FTC moves so slow they're easily chalked up to 'cost of doing business' if you have a good scam. Visa has some teeth, but they're also slow and are essentially playing whack-a-mole.

The processors are in a position to do the makeover, enforce some decorum when dealing with customers, and brand sites they process for as "trustworthy". But I dont see it happening. Why? Simple economics. More work for less transactions.

I've often thought a coalition, cartel or something similar, branded around customer experience, trust, truth in advertising, etc could work. Think of it as the "good housekeeping" seal. Way way back in the day, Ynot actually did this with some success with "Ynot member" sites. But sooner or later when you try to organize a bunch of rebellious personalities, it's doomed to break down, and it did.

Basically the largest obstacle to any of this is overcoming the fact that trying to organize webmasters is like cat herding.

I think a big problem is too many things fall under the online adult industry umbrella and most of them dont have the industries best interests at heart. There was time a it was the producers,the distributors,the retailers and that was about it. it was more pure.

[DannyCox]

We have always cared about our customers (yes, customers) and put them first, always. This shows in that we have been in this business for 15 years, close to 13 with a paysite, and have hardly ever received a complaint. We take our customer service quite seriously and deal with issues immediately. It is gratifying to get all those "Thank you" responses we do get. That customer support has kept our customers around, and keeps them coming back.

We also have never promotes a single company that did things that I felt were bad for the industry. We do our due diligence before signing up to any affiliate program or selling any product on any of our websites. I have turned down many people I know personally as I didn't agree with their tactics, and they all do understand why.

Hell Puppy mentioned YNOT of which we were original members. YNOT was good, and did have an elitist feel to it as so many Adult Webmasters really did want to become one of us. It did help greatly in networking and in doing business. But like most things YNOT did change, and became steered by greed. That greed was the downfall of the original YNOT. Much of the scamming that followed was discussed, developed, and started by some of those original YNOT members! That started the stampede of scammers that followed.

I don't know what to do, but I just keep plugging away with the way we work and we are doing just fine. As most notice, I don't really associate much with other Industry people. I have rarely been involved in partnerships and kept almost everything I do close to the vest. That is what helped us flourish, and now survive.

[softball]

To put a finer point on what Danny said, I feel fortunate that we never participated in those early industry shows. In those heady days, I could easily have been led down the garden path with all the bling. My spidey senses said it was folly. Having seen it all before in my early rather nefarious career and what happened to a few of my colleagues (like they were shot), I kinda backed off. I spose I could have made more money, but I also have to live with myself. I have no admiration for rich grifters who only have that grift they earned here and are now trying to buy legitimacy. But we all know they are low life cocksuckers who hurt a lot of people along the way. Customers and colleagues. Its interesting watching progrmammes disappear at the moment. But fascinating to see the disbelief and how these guys hang on as they are getting kicked in whatever balls they think they have. Someone wanna collaborate on a book? I got a title....."Boogie Hangover"© :whistling

[EmporerEJ]

I have to say, Danny has a point.
We did participate with early shows, but it wasn't new to us.
In the late 80's I participated in the AVN Expo as a video retailer, and then again, in the early 00's when the Virtual Sex Machine was first introduced. I met Danny through the VERY fine folks over at Xplore media (Homegrown.) Moffit, Farrel, and Spike were absolutely the greatest guys in the industry, and instrumental to what success we've had. They were understanding and helpful with our first exhibitor show in New Orleans, gave me very valuable insight to that side of the industry.

In Canada, the people from Mile High media were also very accommodating, and I owe a debt of gratitude to them for "teaching me" about Canada.
:-)

(They know what that means)

I've always had a pretty good "hair on the back of the neck" sense, and I think it's served us well. There are a few decisions I'd like to have a re-do on, but hey, here we are.

[softball]

There are a few decisions I'd like to have a re-do on, but hey, here we are.

You gotta see "Whatever Works" Woody Allen's latest and hopefully last film. When you see it, you will know what I mean.

[gonzo]

I have rarely been involved in partnerships and kept almost everything I do close to the vest. That is what helped us flourish, and now survive.

:-pearl: advice!