Prechecked cross sales do surfers have any responsibility whatsoever?

[TheEnforcer]

Ok, so pre-check cross sales are the new rage as the evil business practice of the day? Why?

Do surfers not bear the responsibility of making sure they know exactly what they are igning up for?

Does the surfer bear no responsibility to find out what exactly they are agreeing to?

Can they whiz by those check marks without so much as a thought and not accept blame for their negligent actions?

WTF is it with allowing consumers to be dumb and not do their homework do we admire so much?

If a business discloses all their terms and a consumer ignores them why is the busines at fault?

We're going to be bailing out MILLIONS of people to the tune of billions of dollars all for people who were too dumb to think about the potential consequences of an ARM because they were too lazy or didn't care about the consequences. WTF should my sister and her family, who bought a house during the madness and were offered terms that would allow them to get a house that was over twice the cost of what they bought with a conventional mortgage, now have to help bail out people who were dumb enough to overextend themselves and take crappy mortgages they either knew and didn't care or were too ignorant to know could come back and bite them in the ass.

Now, I agree there are ways you can do prechecked cross sells that aren't soemthing I would do but the mere idea of prechecked cross sales as being bad no matter what I don't agree with.

[RawAlex]

Short answer is always "yes, the surfer has some responsbility", but the reality is "no, because the programs aren't being entirely straight forward about it".

Most of the prechecked cross sales are checkmarks BELOW the "join" button. For most people, those prechecks are below the fold, you have to scroll to find them, or in many cases you have to scroll far down the page to find cost of each one. None of the sites is straight forward with a total cost number. In other words, nowhere on any page does it say "by clicking enter you agree to $2.95 trial plus $1 trial plus a $1 trial, all of which will rebill within 3 days at $120 per month".

The reality is that this is a variation of what Zango got in shit with the FTC for - disguising the enter link, making the download link far above the terms, and pre-checking boxes to make a positive outcome.

[tony404]

The whole point of prechecked cross sales is to hope the customers isnt aware. We have unchecked cross sales on my sites, sometimes they buy most of the time they dont. When I shop at amazon they are always asking me would I also be interested in some item sometimes I buy sometimes I dont.
If the customer was aware they wouldnt do prechecked cross sales because it wouldnt given them the results they are looking for. All it does is achieve is some short term money for the person doing it. In the long term another porn customer will now will go to free tubes instead because they are gun shy. This industry is its own worst enemy.

[tony404]

Also with the mortgage meltdown, they planned on customers not knowing.When I went to get my mortgage they tried very very hard to sell me adjustable rate or interest only. Now my father is a former banker pounded into my brain fixed rates. So I kept saying no, they talk about how easy it was to get large mortgages. They made me jump thru hoops to get mine and it was less than the value of the house by 50 grand. I firmly believe I got dicked around because I insisted on a fixed rate.
I also believe the tax payer shouldn't be paying for this. I think the government should tell the banks you created this mess fix it, if you have to extend someones loan 100 yrs do it. If you don't fix this we will add more regulations then you ever dreamed of. But that's hard to do when they all except money from these people.

[TheEnforcer]

Short answer is always "yes, the surfer has some responsbility", but the reality is "no, because the programs aren't being entirely straight forward about it".

Most of the prechecked cross sales are checkmarks BELOW the "join" button. For most people, those prechecks are below the fold, you have to scroll to find them, or in many cases you have to scroll far down the page to find cost of each one. None of the sites is straight forward with a total cost number. In other words, nowhere on any page does it say "by clicking enter you agree to $2.95 trial plus $1 trial plus a $1 trial, all of which will rebill within 3 days at $120 per month".

The reality is that this is a variation of what Zango got in shit with the FTC for - disguising the enter link, making the download link far above the terms, and pre-checking boxes to make a positive outcome.


Ok, so you don't have a problem with them in principle just how some of the companies go about implementing them? Correct??

So, for example, if they had the checks above the final submit button with the full terms inside a box above the buy button that would be ok?

[RawAlex]

Ok, so you don't have a problem with them in principle just how some of the companies go about implementing them? Correct??

So, for example, if they had the checks above the final submit button with the full terms inside a box above the buy button that would be ok?

Nope.

if they had the check boxes ABOVE the submit, and they were NOT CHECKED BY DEFAULT, I wouldn't care. Further, I would want them to appear to be different from the T&C click that most of them have.

You have to both make it clear and make it option default to NO, not default to yes.

[DannyCox]

An example is when you download software where they have the prechecked boxes agreeing to have a Google, Yahoo, or whatever toolbar installed when you accept the download. Those are always clearly above the submit button and hard to miss. The other difference with those is you won't be getting an unexpected charge when you click submit.

The surfer does bear some responsibility as they should be checking all the fine print first (I always do) and understand what they are getting in to. But human nature being what it is, and these guys just trying to get their Porn fix as quickly as possible, I can understand how they will miss it. Add that to the fact the checkboxes and fine print are usually hidden below the viewable area, where you don't expect anything to be, and you can see how people will miss it much of the time.

The problem just isn't with the chargebacks, it's that we are training surfers to be leery of buying from any of us. It's a broad brush and we all get painted when people screw our customers. I can guarantee that many people who went through the precheck hell just won't bother joining any more Adult sites for fear of getting screwed again.

[MRock]

The problem just isn't with the chargebacks, it's that we are training surfers to be leery of buying from any of us. It's a broad brush and we all get painted when people screw our customers. I can guarantee that many people who went through the precheck hell just won't bother joining any more Adult sites for fear of getting screwed again.

Probably the biggest ding to adult online money since the start of the interewebs ... the quick buck artists ... creating the stereotype of us all as conartists and sheisters that run websites.

[TheEnforcer]

Nope.

if they had the check boxes ABOVE the submit, and they were NOT CHECKED BY DEFAULT, I wouldn't care. Further, I would want them to appear to be different from the T&C click that most of them have.

You have to both make it clear and make it option default to NO, not default to yes.

Why the default to no? Does the surfer in your scenario, if they are pre-checked, have ANY excuse not to read the terms and stuff they are agreeing to? It's all fully disclosed before they hit submit.

[Toby]

Why the default to no? Does the surfer in your scenario, if they are pre-checked, have ANY excuse not to read the terms and stuff they are agreeing to? It's all fully disclosed before they hit submit.

I agree with Alex on this. When it involves a financial transaction it should be opt in, not opt out.

[RawAlex]

Why the default to no? Does the surfer in your scenario, if they are pre-checked, have ANY excuse not to read the terms and stuff they are agreeing to? It's all fully disclosed before they hit submit.

There are two points here, one short, one long, so bear with me:

The short one: Quite simply, this isn't what they came to buy, it is an extra, and these outside sites should be properly investigated by the surfer before they buy them. most sites don't offer links to allow you to check the sites, they don't disclose that it is another company, etc. Pre-checking the boxes is like pre-checking the "I am 18" box - it is laughable, won't hold up in court, and certainly isn't the right way to do it.

The longer one: The sales pitch. Many of these sites involved are pushing price points, $2.95 3 day trials, $1 trials, Only $29.99 per month. They don't asterix it. Combined with the prechecked cross sales, these things are blatant lies. The only way you can get a $1 trial from some sites is (a) uncheck all the boxes on the form, (b) make sure you are only signing up for one site, and (c) don't do too much with your membership or it gets converted early. Failure to do so doesn't just cost you $1 or $29.99, but $124. If you can't see where this is wrong, you need to get your moral compass re-aligned, it's pointing up your butt! :)

Seriously the sales pitch and T&C here are key. The disclosure of charges isn't clear, often pushed to the bottom of the page, as asterix text in small letters, and have nothing to do with the offered price of the site. When I hit the join page, I expect it to be the price that was offered, not some other price.

Example: Godaddy (many don't like them) when you guy a domain they offer you up about 101 other things to go with your domain. NOT A SINGLE ONE IS PRE-CHECKED, NOT EVEN THE FREE STUFF.

This is super short term gain for long term fucking of the business. If Nick@Ilynx was around, he would probably be all over this with 5 cross sales on his join pages!

[bluemoney]

I just showed a join page to my 22 year old son. I asked him if he were buying how he would go about it.

He looked at the sign up page that had one pre-checked box and one unchecked box.

He looked the page over for a minute.

“I thought you wouldn’t have to buy porn”? he said

“Would you please throw me a bone here and pretend your buying it” I said :doh01:

He grabbed the mouse and unchecked the pre-checked box and checked the one that had been unchecked (it was less expensive)

“I would probably get this one but not both”

I asked him if he thought the pre-checked box was deceptive

“No I can see it right there . . . but if it were unchecked I probably wouldn’t have noticed either of them”

Let me add he was not coached and the boxes were in full view without scrolling at all.

My take! There is a line between “suggestive selling” and “sneaky selling”

[tony404]

Not a strong example. Not being in the heat of the moment is very different. Suggestive is unchecked boxes.

[Nymph]

I just showed a join page to my 22 year old son. I asked him if he were buying how he would go about it.

He looked at the sign up page that had one pre-checked box and one unchecked box.

He looked the page over for a minute.

“I thought you wouldn’t have to buy porn”? he said

“Would you please throw me a bone here and pretend your buying it” I said :doh01:

He grabbed the mouse and unchecked the pre-checked box and checked the one that had been unchecked (it was less expensive)

“I would probably get this one but not both”

I asked him if he thought the pre-checked box was deceptive

“No I can see it right there . . . but if it were unchecked I probably wouldn’t have noticed either of them”

Let me add he was not coached and the boxes were in full view without scrolling at all.

My take! There is a line between “suggestive selling” and “sneaky selling”

Hey sweetie, were the boxes above, or below the "submit" button?

[bluemoney]

Not a strong example. Not being in the heat of the moment is very different. Suggestive is unchecked boxes.

I respect your opinion and admit my test was far from scientific.

But on this page it’s almost hard to believe that anyone could miss it. I know that can’t be said for a lot of programs.



Hey sweetie, were the boxes above, or below the "submit" button?

Check it out http://admin.teenrevenue.com/cgi/click?account=204070&site=10&program=10&j=tour/submit.html Go through the process and have a look. Maybe I'm wrong

[softball]

Ya know, when I buy insurance, a car, a house or any other expensive item that will involve a long term commitment, then I read the contract. When I buy a pair of shoes, I don't.
If I had to spend five minutes reading a contract every time I got in a taxi or bought a carton of milk, there wouldn't be enough hours in the day and a lot of people would lose lot of money because I would stop shopping.

Porn should be the same. I don't get ripped off buying Playboy nor do I have to read their terms of purchase.

So fuck off on having to do any of this to buy porn. That shit is snake oil and we should all be thoroughly fucking offended.

"if my calculations are correct, when this baby hits eighty-eight miles per hour... you're gonna see some serious shit."

[Nymph]

I respect your opinion and admit my test was far from scientific.

But on this page it’s almost hard to believe that anyone could miss it. I know that can’t be said for a lot of programs.





Check it out http://admin.teenrevenue.com/cgi/click?account=204070&site=10&program=10&j=tour/submit.html Go through the process and have a look. Maybe I'm wrong

Ok, that one falls above the "purchase" button, and is through CCBill. Pretty plainly marked.

The ones that get me are those below the "purchase" button, and I'm sure on most peoples screen settings, they would have to scroll down to even see it. They are counting on someone in the heat of the moment pounding the pud with one hand, typing his info with the other, and no hands left to scroll.

[RawAlex]

Check it out http://admin.teenrevenue.com/cgi/click?account=204070&site=10&program=10&j=tour/submit.html Go through the process and have a look. Maybe I'm wrong

You are using a rare example where the check boxes are ABOVE the enter button, so he would have had to go past them to submit.

Go try: http://secure.filthynurses.com/signup/signup.php

in 1200 x 800. The cross sales are NOWHERE TO BE SEEN... until you scroll past the submit looking for them

[tony404]

if its such good of a deal then it should be a unchecked box. IMO Its a shame times are tough, so what does the industry do to the few that are willing to whip out a credit card? Rat fuck them as hard as possible. lol My father's favorite saying is "Then they wonder why"

[DannyCox]

Check it out http://admin.teenrevenue.com/cgi/click?account=204070&site=10&program=10&j=tour/submit.html Go through the process and have a look. Maybe I'm wrong

Unless you removed them from your pages, those are not the prechecked boxes we are all talking about. Those are just selection radio buttons for the surfer to choose the length of subscription he wants.

We are talking about prechecked selection boxes well below the submit button, where you are agreeing to join other websites.

[bluemoney]

We are talking about prechecked selection boxes well below the submit button, where you are agreeing to join other websites.
I agree, those are shady.

[Hell Puppy]

The line between clever marketing and outright fraud lies somewhere in the amount of disclosure.

[TheEnforcer]

There are two points here, one short, one long, so bear with me:

The short one: Quite simply, this isn't what they came to buy, it is an extra, and these outside sites should be properly investigated by the surfer before they buy them. most sites don't offer links to allow you to check the sites, they don't disclose that it is another company, etc. Pre-checking the boxes is like pre-checking the "I am 18" box - it is laughable, won't hold up in court, and certainly isn't the right way to do it.!

If disclosed in the terms and conditions and in an obvious spot I'm not sure I agree with you on this.

The longer one: The sales pitch. Many of these sites involved are pushing price points, $2.95 3 day trials, $1 trials, Only $29.99 per month. They don't asterix it. Combined with the prechecked cross sales, these things are blatant lies. The only way you can get a $1 trial from some sites is (a) uncheck all the boxes on the form, (b) make sure you are only signing up for one site, and (c) don't do too much with your membership or it gets converted early. Failure to do so doesn't just cost you $1 or $29.99, but $124. If you can't see where this is wrong, you need to get your moral compass re-aligned, it's pointing up your butt! :)

They were pitched on the $1 trial, $2.95 3 days or whatever but they are given a choice to stick with it or not. No one is holding a gun to their head and saying. "you gotta take these other offers" or you're not getting in. If they can see and read and they are above the join button then they absolutely have the capability to make their own choice on how to proceed. I won't say whetehr I agree or not but either way it was way too much agreement here between everybody to be a decent discussion so I feel I must chime in and not let everybody be too comfortable in their chumminess....

Seriously the sales pitch and T&C here are key. The disclosure of charges isn't clear, often pushed to the bottom of the page, as asterix text in small letters, and have nothing to do with the offered price of the site. When I hit the join page, I expect it to be the price that was offered, not some other price.

I will say I agree that they should be above the join button. On that aspect I will agree.

Example: Godaddy (many don't like them) when you guy a domain they offer you up about 101 other things to go with your domain. NOT A SINGLE ONE IS PRE-CHECKED, NOT EVEN THE FREE STUFF.!

I've seen plenty of prechecked stuff, whether it be free, free trial, or trial, on the non-adult side.

This is super short term gain for long term fucking of the business. If Nick@Ilynx was around, he would probably be all over this with 5 cross sales on his join pages!


He always treated me right when we did business together. :okthumb: He was always fair and prompt in our business dealings.

[gonzo]

He always treated me right when we did business together. :okthumb: He was always fair and prompt in our business dealings.
I can agree with that with one major exception for about 90 days. But it ended up ok anyhow.

[RawAlex]

If disclosed in the terms and conditions and in an obvious spot I'm not sure I agree with you on this.

They were pitched on the $1 trial, $2.95 3 days or whatever but they are given a choice to stick with it or not. No one is holding a gun to their head and saying. "you gotta take these other offers" or you're not getting in. If they can see and read and they are above the join button then they absolutely have the capability to make their own choice on how to proceed. I won't say whetehr I agree or not but either way it was way too much agreement here between everybody to be a decent discussion so I feel I must chime in and not let everybody be too comfortable in their chumminess....


Here's a scenerio for you. You go in to buy a new car. The lease rate is $299. per month. When you get the contract to sign, there are a couple of little boxes at the bottom already checked for you by the computer that adds in "rust proofing" "simonized interior" and "upgraded hubcaps". On the back inside the terms (which runs the full size of the form) there is disclosure (written out as total cost for rust proofing is one thousand nine hundred and ninety five dollars). So when the first monthly payment is due, you are suddently paying $389, because all those extra pre-checks have to get paid for during the lease term.

I bet you would be pissed off, and you would say it is wrong that they pre-checked the boxes without explaining to you. They will say "it's on the contract you signed". Legally, they may be just barely in the right, but you know you will never do business with them again.

There is too much agreement here because most of the people posting here these days are pretty level headed and want to have a business to do again tomorrow. Many of the people here have been around since the very first scams, and we have a pretty good feeling where this train wreck is going.

I have seen three types of people disagreeing about this: Bros / standup guys / top notch playahs, suckups who are dependant on programs to pay their bills, and newer people enjoying the big payouts not realizing the implications. Outside of that, I have seen little agreement with this concept.

[TheEnforcer]

Here's a scenerio for you. You go in to buy a new car. The lease rate is $299. per month. When you get the contract to sign, there are a couple of little boxes at the bottom already checked for you by the computer that adds in "rust proofing" "simonized interior" and "upgraded hubcaps". On the back inside the terms (which runs the full size of the form) there is disclosure (written out as total cost for rust proofing is one thousand nine hundred and ninety five dollars). So when the first monthly payment is due, you are suddently paying $389, because all those extra pre-checks have to get paid for during the lease term.

I bet you would be pissed off, and you would say it is wrong that they pre-checked the boxes without explaining to you. They will say "it's on the contract you signed". Legally, they may be just barely in the right, but you know you will never do business with them again.

There is too much agreement here because most of the people posting here these days are pretty level headed and want to have a business to do again tomorrow. Many of the people here have been around since the very first scams, and we have a pretty good feeling where this train wreck is going.

I have seen three types of people disagreeing about this: Bros / standup guys / top notch playahs, suckups who are dependant on programs to pay their bills, and newer people enjoying the big payouts not realizing the implications. Outside of that, I have seen little agreement with this concept.

You know who I am far more pissed at in that scenario? Myself for being dumb enough to not fully understand what I was agreeing to before signing on the dotted line. ESPECIALLY on a contract that ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES a long term committment. Everything was where I could take the time to read it. If I didn't take the time to go over the contract and know what it meant to sign it it's MY responibility. I've already said I think the cross sells should be easy to see above the join button so they know what they are agreeing to.

[RawAlex]

You know who I am far more pissed at in that scenario? Myself for being dumb enough to not fully understand what I was agreeing to before signing on the dotted line. ESPECIALLY on a contract that ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES a long term committment. Everything was where I could take the time to read it. If I didn't take the time to go over the contract and know what it meant to sign it it's MY responibility. I've already said I think the cross sells should be easy to see above the join button so they know what they are agreeing to.

Don;t you think it would be equally good to require a total charges - Your total today is $4.95, your total in 4 days is $120.74. ? All for fair disclosure, right?

[TheEnforcer]

Don;t you think it would be equally good to require a total charges - Your total today is $4.95, your total in 4 days is $120.74. ? All for fair disclosure, right?

I certainly would not oppose it.

[RawAlex]

I certainly would not oppose it.

I suspect if programs were obliged to do this, they would drop the cross sales in a second because no sane person is going to sign up for $120 of month recurring charges for porn.

[softball]

I say it again, you shouldn't have to read the fine print for an inexpensive consumable product. That is why we have consumer protection laws and we pay taxes to enforce them. How can anyone make an argument for this shit.
Apart from the fact that it makes a lot of money. We could also be discussing selling crack which takes no talent as well and also makes a lot of money. This shit is just plain nasty. It is indefensible.

[clickyoucutie]

Ok, so you don't have a problem with them in principle just how some of the companies go about implementing them? Correct??

So, for example, if they had the checks above the final submit button with the full terms inside a box above the buy button that would be ok?
this sounds better than some of the prechecked cross sales I've seen :okthumb:

[DannyCox]

I would probably have less of a problem if the checkboxes were up front and clear with the terms listed right next to them. Usually, upsells are something you are offering the consumer at a discount and I have a big problem with the price that people are getting screwed with. In all cases, they are a lot higher than the site they are planning to join.

I've also noticed that some of the upsell sites aren't even proper sites, but just a small area of extra content (and usually poor content). We can talk all we want about the responsibility of the surfer, but all this is being done just to rip-off the consumer, and is quite obvious. None of this would ever stand up in court and I doubt would even be protected in the least under any contract law.

I'd love to hear the opinion of a lawyer on the legitimacy of all this. Pornlaw? Anyone?

[tony404]

I say it again, you shouldn't have to read the fine print for an inexpensive consumable product.

Well said :)

[wingchun22]

Spill the beans Spare no verb and heavy on the adjectives please