Prechecked Cross Sales: Getting out of hand

[RawAlex]

Big discussion at the zoo as XXXJay as set up his PPS program, but also tagged on about $100 of prechecked cross sales on his stuff.

This morning, I am checking out a new ebony site from ARS, and low and behold I I find two prechecked cross sales:

I would also like free access to realitypass.com for a special price! 4 days for free then $ 38.87 every 30 days
I would also like free access to incrediblepass.com for a special price! 3 days for free, then $ 36.04 every 30 days

So the $4.99 "trial" turns into a $104.90 bomb in a few days.

...and program owners wonder why people sign up and then cancel after 1 or 2 days. Quite simply, your product isn't worth $104.90 a month.

This is like going to buy a pair of socks for a couple of dollars, and when you get home you discover that the store also put pants, a shirt, and a pair of shoes in the bag and charged you off $150 for the honor.

[tony404]

I was told in the early days it was alot worse and basically to shut up.

[RawAlex]

I have discussed elsewhere that this may be the main reason for the move to NATS. Cross sales are apparently easy to set up, and programs that just use a single processor (like CCBill can still do it, which is much harder to do with the standard ccbill interface).

One thought that came up was personal information privacy - most of the cross sales involve giving information (personal) from one company to another in order to make the sale happen. I don't see a very good disclose to who the third party is in these sales.

[Toby]

Some of the bullshit these guys are spouting as reasons/justification for the deceptive cross sales is comical. The sad part is they actually believe their own BS.

A larger number of affiliates are catching on to the bullshit, but I don't think that that it's getting anywhere close to a critical mass where the offending programs will take notice.

One board, mostly TGP owners, are tossing about the idea of an affiliate coalition. A loosely formed webmasters union so to speak, that would have a list of best practices and grade sponsors on their compliance.

A noble idea, but I don't know if it would ever have enough influence to put pressure on programs to comply. Perhaps if a few whales signed on?

[RawAlex]

Well, so far i am avoiding Deecash like the plague, decreasing or stopping use of sponsors with multiple pre-checked cross sales, and slowing down on those who use them at all. I think that CCBill may see some benefit from this because their systems don't support cross sales in the same manner, so those programs are less likely to get involved.

I don't have anywhere near the problem with unchecked cross sales, although I think a re-reading of the program terms might be in order in regards to rev-share, as this could be considered sale income in some cases.

Toby, I think that an affiliate coalition might actually not be a terrible thing, if nothing else programs need to know that at least some people aren't baffled by their bullshit.

[Hell Puppy]

Some of the bullshit these guys are spouting as reasons/justification for the deceptive cross sales is comical. The sad part is they actually believe their own BS.

A larger number of affiliates are catching on to the bullshit, but I don't think that that it's getting anywhere close to a critical mass where the offending programs will take notice.

One board, mostly TGP owners, are tossing about the idea of an affiliate coalition. A loosely formed webmasters union so to speak, that would have a list of best practices and grade sponsors on their compliance.

A noble idea, but I don't know if it would ever have enough influence to put pressure on programs to comply. Perhaps if a few whales signed on?

This idea has been kicked around in various forms since at least 1997 ranging from things like a Better Business Bureau stamp of approval to models like BizRate to pure traffic coalitions.

The problem is getting webmasters to swim in the same direction on anything is like herding cats. The reason most of the successful ones are here is they are fiercely independent and not the types who fall in line and tow a corporate line.

Also adult webmaster ethics is an oxymoron. Some of us are definitely more ethical than others, but think about it from the view of the outside world. We all make money peddling flesh on the internet, the average guy on the street will look down his nose at you and talk shit about you to his friends. Then ask you if he can have some passwords when he gets you in private.

Now add all of that with good old fashioned greed, and it's only a matter of time before it all falls apart.

There have been some coalitions with successful runs focused around simply traffic exchange, but they fall apart when the rules get too invasive. Examples include Kacy's "Certified" amateurs and way way way back in the day C.O.N.D.O.M. which was anti popup. Ynot originally also has a "Ynot Members" area that had some decent quality requirements, that too fell apart. And Ynot itself, at least the YnotRick era, tanked over blindlinks.

[Hell Puppy]

Well, so far i am avoiding Deecash like the plague, decreasing or stopping use of sponsors with multiple pre-checked cross sales, and slowing down on those who use them at all. I think that CCBill may see some benefit from this because their systems don't support cross sales in the same manner, so those programs are less likely to get involved.

I don't have anywhere near the problem with unchecked cross sales, although I think a re-reading of the program terms might be in order in regards to rev-share, as this could be considered sale income in some cases.

Toby, I think that an affiliate coalition might actually not be a terrible thing, if nothing else programs need to know that at least some people aren't baffled by their bullshit.

Where's GBU when you need it....

[RawAlex]

Where's GBU when you need it....

Ugly just don't cover it.

[gonzo]

Where's GBU when you need it....
I still own that. Maybe its time to reexamine how Its ued right now I have resturant reviews on it.

[bluemoney]

Seems as though more and more “villagers” at GFY are picking up pitchforks & torches to storm a few castles!

Look out Dr. Frankenstein, you created more than one monster!

[RawAlex]

Seems as though more and more “villagers” at GFY are picking up pitchforks & torches to storm a few castles!

Look out Dr. Frankenstein, you created more than one monster!

It's too bad that the bros and stand up, to notch guys are circling the wagons and are shouting down the complainers. It's a pretty good indication that the cross sale thing is something that a few over there have been profiting from.

[tony404]

It's too bad that the bros and stand up, to notch guys are circling the wagons and are shouting down the complainers. It's a pretty good indication that the cross sale thing is something that a few over there have been profiting from.

I got told that many in the industry are amazed how stupid I am. lol

[gonzo]

I got told that many in the industry are amazed how stupid I am. lol
Being indignant is the first refuse of the cockholster.

[Hell Puppy]

I got told that many in the industry are amazed how stupid I am. lol

I put the same weight in anything said over there as I would something said by a snot nosed teenager still wearing his Burger King uniform....

[RawAlex]

Add TopBucks to the "Two prechecked cross sales" crew... another $100+ bomb by day 4.

[Toby]

I'm thinking about adding big notice to the submit page on my TGP's, telling submitters that I will not list sites promoting sponsors using any below the submit button pre-checked cross sales.

I don't like any pre-checks but the below the submit button ones are way over the line.

[RawAlex]

I'm thinking about adding big notice to the submit page on my TGP's, telling submitters that I will not list sites promoting sponsors using any below the submit button pre-checked cross sales.

I don't like any pre-checks but the below the submit button ones are way over the line.

I am starting to think you won't have many galleries to list... I would say 50% or more of the non-CCbill programs have prechecks of one sort or another.

[Buckwheat]

Those dudes at DeeCash are straight up! They gave me a bunch of stuff

A pack of DeeCash Insense

A Rage Cash Koozee

And an Epic Cash rehab overnight bag!

Oh yeah! and this cool dot for my head!

<<<----------- Check it!

[softball]

Add TopBucks to the "Two prechecked cross sales" crew... another $100+ bomb by day 4.

Interesting because I heard on the qt a couple of weeks ago that these guys were backing off on buying content and their sales were seriously down. Makes sense, huh? This reminds me of rats and ships and other mighty maritime tales of sunken boats.
I think a lot of these guys were never very good businessmen, but lucky rounders.

[RawAlex]

Oh yeah, add in twisty's with this single solid shot:

Sign me up for another subscription to Naughtycuteteens.com $0.00 for 2 days (trial) then $42.35 recurring every 30 days

My question is this: depending on the terms of a given program, a 60% rev share might be seen to include all revenue generated with my traffic on signups - so that 60% in theory should include all cross sales. I wonder if anyone bothered to think about that before they started slapping these things on revshare tours?

[Toby]

I don't know if THEY thought about it, but I certainly did. It's why I deleted all of my Twistys links about six months ago.

[tony404]

I dont have a MBA but to suck the few customers willing to spend money dry in a tight economy.Isnt the best business model to go with IMO.

[gonzo]

http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/showthread.php?p=818292#post818292

[Hell Puppy]

I can see I need to go heads down this week and do a house cleaning.

[Nymph]

I can see I need to go heads down this week and do a house cleaning.

Yeppers, I'll be doing the same thing, and then comes the replenishing of sponsors I had to ax.

Just a thought......Since a lot of the sponsors have their own forums, either private or public, has anyone posted on those asking about this practice?

[Gerco]

What about using unchecked cross sales? I'm sorry for the question but this is actually new to me. Also, with ccbill only processing, you can have a pre-checked cross sale on your join page easy. So it's not just bigger programs that can do it. I have none, but I did try to add one for a week just to do some testing, for me it did not work for the simple fact that the cross sale was not related to my site, or my content. I actually think I would do better with links from inside my members area to other sites offering similar content, or friends sites that have worked with me in shoots in the past. I guess though, I'm kind of an odd fish there. I have never been someone who liked playing tricks on my members. I've never used popups or pop unders or any of the other crappy tricks that have annoyed me when going to others sites. The last thing I would want to do is piss off my members and leave them feeling like I didn't give them their moneys worth. Good members are hard to come by, and should be treated well. They didn't have to come to my site and join, and they should expect to get what I say they will get upfront and not screwed over in anyway. Could be why my members rebill for so long. Course on the other side of this coin, I'm not throwing huge parties at the shows, living in fancy houses or driving 150k cars... so I must be doing something wrong eh?

[gonzo]

What about using unchecked cross sales? I'm sorry for the question but this is actually new to me. Also, with ccbill only processing, you can have a pre-checked cross sale on your join page easy. So it's not just bigger programs that can do it. I have none, but I did try to add one for a week just to do some testing, for me it did not work for the simple fact that the cross sale was not related to my site, or my content. I actually think I would do better with links from inside my members area to other sites offering similar content, or friends sites that have worked with me in shoots in the past. I guess though, I'm kind of an odd fish there. I have never been someone who liked playing tricks on my members. I've never used popups or pop unders or any of the other crappy tricks that have annoyed me when going to others sites. The last thing I would want to do is piss off my members and leave them feeling like I didn't give them their moneys worth. Good members are hard to come by, and should be treated well. They didn't have to come to my site and join, and they should expect to get what I say they will get upfront and not screwed over in anyway. Could be why my members rebill for so long. Course on the other side of this coin, I'm not throwing huge parties at the shows, living in fancy houses or driving 150k cars... so I must be doing something wrong eh?
It was funny Alex and I were talking about that last night. We both agreed thats like an upsel in your members area... I dont see a problem with it but you will have those that whine they dont get a piece of that as well.

[RawAlex]

I think of an unchecked cross sale in the same way that I might think of Amazon shipping a 10% off coupon with an order someone buys off of one of my links. Basically, they made the sale, they made other offers, but they didn't tie any of them to my sale. There was nothing there that decreased the value of my sale or made it suddenly more expensive.

[Gerco]

It was funny Alex and I were talking about that last night. We both agreed thats like an upsel in your members area... I dont see a problem with it but you will have those that whine they dont get a piece of that as well.

That's kind of the issue it seems to come down to. Affiliates think they are getting screwed somehow. I don't think that an affiliate would be upset about about you having your own personal affiliated links within your members area to other sites in an effort to make some extra money referring your members to another site. If fact, I believe this is referred to as a "qualified" link. I personally would MUCH rather have a link to my site from within a good members area of another site as it shows me the person clicking the link is already willing to take out a credit card and join and is looking for more of the same. It's in no way tricking a member, but offering them a choice for more entertainment.

Pre-checking a cross sale during the signup process is shady to say the least and just begging for chargebacks and pissed of members. Members who with think twice about ever joining ANY website after they get fucked over.

[gonzo]

Pre-checking a cross sale during the signup process is shady to say the least and just begging for chargebacks and pissed of members. Members who with think twice about ever joining ANY website after they get fucked over.
Theres why so many people are so pissed.

[RawAlex]

Pre-checking a cross sale during the signup process is shady to say the least and just begging for chargebacks and pissed of members. Members who with think twice about ever joining ANY website after they get fucked over.

The number of people willing to take their credit cards out online is getting smaller all the time, I know people who did their banking online and cancelled the service so as to not take a risk on phishing scams, etc. Too many people don't trust the internet.

Most of the cross sales programs are pulling 2 cross sales plus the original amount, about $110 to $140 shot to the user insided 3 days. They rebill. The potential is that the user doesn't see the charges (get their paper bill) until the second round has been charged as well. So the guy opens up his bill, and that $1 trial has turned into upwards to $280. There is no way that this is going to encourage the guy to ever buy porn online again.

Worse, these days we are looking at a larger number of people "on the edge", running their credit cards near maximum and playing it month to month. Maybe porn is their relaxation of choice, and they have a budget of maybe, I dunno $40 a month for it. Guy signs up, gets whacked and whacked again, suddenly his CC is over limit and other things he needed in real life can't get done anymore, because the porn company whacked his card.

None of this encourages repeat business, and is a clear sign that many of these companies think they are going to be out of buisness soon and are just trying to grab the last dollars they can on their worn out content and poor salesmanship.

[Gerco]

You know the sad thing is this is exactly how you become a "bro", by fucking over everything around you and scooping in as much dirty cash as you c an then tossing some shindig to show everyone how cool you are. That free beer you just drank might have just cost you your livelihood down the road.

[RawAlex]

You know the sad thing is this is exactly how you become a "bro", by fucking over everything around you and scooping in as much dirty cash as you c an then tossing some shindig to show everyone how cool you are. That free beer you just drank might have just cost you your livelihood down the road.

The reality is that it isn't so far from the crack dealer with the nice car and the gold grill... showing how dirty money makes him a big man, until someone gives him lead poisoning.

[DannyCox]

Member area up-sales are great. I've done that for years, and have never had a problem. But no one is getting tricked as they are pulling out their credit card to join.

One thing about the prechecked stuff that hasn't been mentioned is that each checkbox has it's own billing account against it. So you join the original site, see it on your credit card statement, but you also get 2 other charges using different identifiers, and you'll probably never know where they came from. Regardless of what any of these guys say, their chargebacks just have to be huge.

[RawAlex]

If I understand what is posted on the net about one of the programs buying massive cross sales, they don't cancel, they just move the people to ANOTHER processor and bill them again.

[miz_wright]

Being indignant is the first refuse of the cockholster.

I think you're looking for "refuge" here, friend ;)

[gonzo]

I think you're looking for "refuge" here, friend ;)
Im just looking!

[Toby]

From a similar discussion on another board. Reposted with the authors permission.
Let my try painting a picture here and you tell me whether it's white, black or grey.

We're at a point where pretty much every sponsor with an own merchant account and the bulk of sponsors with enough volume to be allowed to are doing pre-checked cross-sales. While pre-checked cross-sales per se may not be bad, what these people are doing is shady, at best. Oftentimes the price of the cross-sales is hidden in fine print, the boxes are tucked away far below the submit button, the wording is made up so it doesn't clearly imply that you'll get charged for the memberships, etc, etc. Shortly put, pushing the legality of the practice to its limits.

Now, how does this affect the industry? Well, for one, these sites do cross-sales between them on pretty much the same pool of surfers. Much like we trade TGP traffic, passing the same surfers from one site to another. The end result? The surfer gets slapped with anything from $100 to $200 (depending on the sites he joins and his location) in charges for the cross-sales and never trusts a paysite with his creditcard again. In many cases the cross-sales are even for sites they'd actually get access to anyway, by joining the site they want in the first place. And as if that was not enough, if they want to cancel, they often get even more cross-sales thrown at then hidden below the submit button on the cancellation page. So they think they cancelled one or two memberships but end up having signed up for different ones instead. Their credit cards get practically raped.

Now, you'd think bleeding the market dry for potential customers would be bad enough, but as it turns out, that's not the biggest problem. See, being that these people are pushing things to such an extreme degree, can you imagine what would happen if the mainstream media got a whiff of this? Just imagine one single loon with an agenda (remember minusonebit anyone?) starting doing research, putting together names of individuals and companies and sending it to mainstream media channels, while dragging in VISA and MasterCard along with it, as supporters. All it takes is one fairly reputable mainstream media source to run a comprehensive story on this and many others would follow suit. Let's face it, in a time when the consumer is struggling to make ends meet, the economy is darker than it's been in many decades and people are losing their jobs and homes, this would make for an incredibly great story and unbelievably suitable scapegoat for many.

Does anyone remember the big stink caused by dialers 6-7 years ago? That is a piss in the ocean compared to what would happen if the above scenario were to take place. What could happen? Worst-case scenario, the end of this industry as we know it. Processors would go out of business, many sponsors (good and bad) would go out of business and with them the majority of affiliates.

Now going back to the sponsors-shooting-themselves-in-the-foot part, they don't give a fuck. They're leveraging their size to squeeze the industry out of one last fast buck, because the ones doing this could easily retire yesterday since they've already got it made. In fact, it is my belief (and to a certain degree actual knowldge) that it's exactly what some of them are doing, squeezing the last drop of blood from the industry, while they already have mainstream projects lined up, getting ready to move on to greener pastures.

Now, the only reason why no one has tipped off the mainstream media about this yet is because those to whom the idea occured also realized that they'd go down with the ship as well. However, the risk of this happening is getting bigger and bigger and all of you who promote these sponsors are, in fact, also risking your short-term paychecks, not only your long-term ones. Because if the shit hits the fan, the FTC gets involved and VISA and MC pull out, fucked doesn't even begin to describe what you will be.

So tell me, is it white, black or grey?

[Hell Puppy]

I'm ok with unchecked cross sales.

Only thing that bothers me about them is it makes me keep an eye on the sponsor. If they're setup for unchecked, they can alternate between checked and unchecked VERY easily while I'm not looking.

[gonzo]

I have to ask in all fairness. Are you guys expecting $100 PPS off these sites or do you promote them with the expectation of revshare?

[RawAlex]

Can I say I am a realist? on PPS I am expecting not much more than $30 - $35, and I think that if the client is getting charged a bunch less. than I will accept a lower payout. Example, a $4.95 trial that recurs at $24.95 - I am not expecting $35.

If you expect more than $40, you are dreaming.

As a side note, all the live chat places paying $100 or $200 or whatever per signup are doing it because the chance you find a client that hasn't already gotten a free account is pretty slim. I would suspect that 50% or more of the traffic everyone sends is returning customers who already have an account (active or not) and you won't get paid for whatever they spend on a given day. There are very few noodles left in that soup.