Does Server Location Matter ?

[gonzo]

Im laughing as some people gasping for air are tying to say that Max Hardcore was convicted becasue his server was in Tampa.

Give me a break!

I guess soon Webair will be trotting out that offshore hosting claim again that your safe if your shit is hosted with them.

I think Max was convicted because the jurors found those videos obscene. The rest of the case to them was immaterial.

Mike South said it best ..."did you really think that watching Max dress a girl up as prepubescent, pee into her mouth, make her vomit, make her cry, rape her in almost every sense of the word, refer to her as14 years old was going to be ignored by the jury? Sure a jury shouldn’t make a verdict based on emotion but ..."

http://www.mikesouth.com/mike-south-commentary/some-thoughts-on-max-obscenity-trial-2161/

[tony404]

actually read this, it was one of the reasons they picked tampa. http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/6/do_people_in_florida_think_your_website_is_obscene _

[RawAlex]

I think that the location of the server SHOULDN'T matter, but in this case it was just one of the many things that they used to get the case pushed into Tampa as opposed to (say) New York or Los Angeles.

[mmemmer]

Gonzo you left out one of the most important parts from Mike's commnets;

"How many times have I said it, if we don’t control ourselves Washington DC will do it for us, and if you think Obama or McCain either one is going to reverse this trend you are an idiot."

[gonzo]

Gonzo you left out one of the most important parts from Mike's commnets;

"How many times have I said it, if we don’t control ourselves Washington DC will do it for us, and if you think Obama or McCain either one is going to reverse this trend you are an idiot."
Yes I did. That South guys is a pretty smart dude isnt he?

[RawAlex]

Gonzo you left out one of the most important parts from Mike's commnets;

"How many times have I said it, if we don’t control ourselves Washington DC will do it for us, and if you think Obama or McCain either one is going to reverse this trend you are an idiot."

Well, call me an idiot then.

My feeling is that with the democrats taking power, many of the mega-conservative "ram my christian views down your throat" types will get the door, leaving agencies that might go against porn with people more interested in true law and order rather than just headlines.

I don't suggest for a second that democrats would come in and say "all porn is nice, sorry Mr Hardcore, here is your get out of jail free card", but rather than jacking the porn industry around wouldn't be their pet peeve (see "porn free internet topic for example of republican't horseshit).

We have just spent 8 years waiting for the knock on the door. Perhaps a little peace would be nice?

[twintone]

While pornography by itself is not illegal, it can be prosecuted as obscenity if it fits the definition laid out by the Supreme Court more than 30 years ago. Under that ruling, Miller v. California, a work may be deemed obscene if, taken as a whole, it lacks artistic, literary or scientific merit, depicts certain conduct in a patently offensive manner, and violates contemporary community standards.

[Toby]

While pornography by itself is not illegal, it can be prosecuted as obscenity if it fits the definition laid out by the Supreme Court more than 30 years ago. Under that ruling, Miller v. California, a work may be deemed obscene if, taken as a whole, it lacks artistic, literary or scientific merit, depicts certain conduct in a patently offensive manner, and violates contemporary community standards.
I think most of us here are very aware of the Miller Test. It really doesn't define obscenity, rather it defines a set of criteria for a jury to use to determine if something is obscene.

One problem lies in the the concept of community standards. Prosecutors have been taking advantage of localized community standards to persue cases where the true applicable community is the entire Internet.

Another problem is that you don't know for sure you're in violation of the law until you're convicted.

Max knew he was on the Feds radar, yet he still continued to push the limits, so he had to know they'd keep coming after him. I think the conviction will get overturned on appeal, but I can't say that Max didn't get what he had coming to him.

[gonzo]

I think most of us here are very aware of the Miller Test. It really doesn't define obscenity, rather it defines a set of criteria for a jury to use to determine if something is obscene.

One problem lies in the the concept of community standards. Prosecutors have been taking advantage of localized community standards to persue cases where the true applicable community is the entire Internet.

Another problem is that you don't know for sure you're in violation of the law until you're convicted.

Max knew he was on the Feds radar, yet he still continued to push the limits, so he had to know they'd keep coming after him. I think the conviction will get overturned on appeal, but I can't say that Max didn't get what he had coming to him.

Kayden makes a good post on Mike Souths blog.
I dont see the industry rallying around Max though. He has shown no regard for the rest of us or the impact a case like this could potentially have on all of us.

Toby youve seen firsthand how Max has no regard for anybody or anything. Every year he has that tall chick (http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=28)crawl down the water sculpture in hotel lobby.

Im sure that it will be overturned in appeals but then who knows for sure. One thing is for certain. Max didnt mail those videos. Its a reach just as 3rd party custodian of record for 2257 requirements were in the past.

But after all Max makes a perfect canary in the coal mine.

[tony404]

Gonzo you left out one of the most important parts from Mike's commnets;

"How many times have I said it, if we don’t control ourselves Washington DC will do it for us, and if you think Obama or McCain either one is going to reverse this trend you are an idiot."

Mike is wrong on this one and when shown proof, he will discount it. More porn gets prosecuted during republican admin its a fact. It cost adam and eve a million dollars to fight during the meese years during reagan.During Clinton Janet Reno stated that going after porn for adults by adults was a waste of resources.During Bush they rewrote 2257 to make it a total pain in the ass and if 911 didnt happen it was priority one.Two of the lawyers the attorney general fired were over their refusal to go after porn. Do the dems love us no but we are low on the priority list. Where we do have to police ourselves is in the amount of open access to free porn, that's not a obscenity problem that's a giving children access to adult material problem.

[deviant]

How does Hentai content fair in regards to obscenity? Does it fly under the radar since it's animation? There's a lot of disturbing hentai content so even depicting minors. I remember hearing that Bush had passed some law trying to specifically target that market, but that it had been overturned somehow someway. I'm not very familiar with the specifics, anybody familiar with this?

[RawAlex]

How does Hentai content fair in regards to obscenity? Does it fly under the radar since it's animation? There's a lot of disturbing hentai content so even depicting minors. I remember hearing that Bush had passed some law trying to specifically target that market, but that it had been overturned somehow someway. I'm not very familiar with the specifics, anybody familiar with this?


Not anymore. In fact, the most recent "clarifications" seem to point very specifically at simulated sex and other areas that are sex not always involving real people. You may want to have a look around.

IMHO, much of the hentai world (and much of Japanese porn in general) panders pretty solidly to what western people would consider to be pedo fantasy. It is understandable as Japan doesn't have the same rules against sex with girls under 18 (it is illegal for foreigners to have sex with girls under 18... Japanese? Well...). The girls play the game dressing in schoolgirl uniforms well into their twenties (and even thirties these days) and the Hentai material they produce often plays to that same fantasy. Nothing wrong with it for them, nothing wrong with it for most of us who understand, but I am not sure that 12 uninformed civilians in Podunk, Georgia are going to be able to understand.

We all take chances, and the Max case has shown that in fact there are some limits out there.

[MikeSouth]

Anyone who thinks the Democrats wouldn't sell us out if there was one iota of political gain in it is very wrong.

Look at Clinton He signed COPA and CDA into law

Do NOT kid yourself into thinking either party has any internal support at all for us, they don't and you can bet it will be the democrats who end up with these prosecutions in their lap Max's appeal, Stagliano, Rob Black will almost all be a part of the nexct administration anyone wanna bet on whether or not Obama says hey forget this we have better things to do? Aint gonna happen y'all.

He is going to say we need to make sure that our communities and that the internet are safe for everyone, including children. blah, blah, blah.

[Brad Mitchell]

At the risk of opening myself up to scrutiny, I think it's still prudent to comment.. These are simply my opinions and not meant as a statement of fact - let's leave that to the legal professionals.

1) If you selling videos through the mail or memberships online and are a US citizen with or without a US corporation I believe it is safe to say that the US government is most interested in simply following the money if they have a problem with what you are selling. Foreign hosting and foreign corporations might obfuscate the situation some but at the end of the day if they disagree with your business practices I would make the assumption that you are at the same risk.

2) As far as I know, every predominately "adult host" that has a european presence has not gone to the effort of actually doing a proper incorporation in the EU and not completely seperating it from their US corporation. In other words, same support numbers, same merchant accounts, same US company just basically buying resold servers/bandwidth/IP space from a european host and reselling it as their own with their layered technical support on top of it. In case you weren't listening, pretty much everyone is a reseller and nobody owns their european hardware/network and also doesn't have their own staff over there. Someone please feel free to teach me otherwise, but if the Department of Homeland Security sends a proper warrant to ABC adult hosting's corporate office in Atlanta for a server in Amsterdam then they're required by US law to respond and provide whatever is asked for. IE, you are not protected as a customer and neither is your host with operations in Amsterdam.

3) This prosecution wasn't specific to the State of Florida, it was a Federal case. Based on my understanding, this truly could have happened in any of the Federal districts. Pretty much everyone is transacting business across all 50 state borders so if you have US residency regardless of whether or not you have US hosting or a foreign corporation it would be my guess that your level of risk is ultimately the same in all scenarios.

As many of you know we have our datacenter and one of our two offices in Miami, Florida. Everyone needs to make the decisions that are best for their business. I am of the belief that regardless of where you host inside of the US if you are a US citizen you have the same basic risk. It would come to me as no surprise if some parties out there say hosting in Florida is a big no-no... we're a provider to which everyone loses customers but virtually none gain, ever.

Best Wishes,

Brad

[RawAlex]

Anyone who thinks the Democrats wouldn't sell us out if there was one iota of political gain in it is very wrong.

Look at Clinton He signed COPA and CDA into law

Do NOT kid yourself into thinking either party has any internal support at all for us, they don't and you can bet it will be the democrats who end up with these prosecutions in their lap Max's appeal, Stagliano, Rob Black will almost all be a part of the nexct administration anyone wanna bet on whether or not Obama says hey forget this we have better things to do? Aint gonna happen y'all.

He is going to say we need to make sure that our communities and that the internet are safe for everyone, including children. blah, blah, blah.

Mike, same story as always - your too busy looking at the magician's flash paper to pay attention to what really happens.

Republican'ts write new laws that they know won't pass constitutional muster, enforce the hell of them as long as they can, and then go "oops" at the end and walk away, after people's lives have been fucked over and destroyed. Their attempts to use administrative "clarifications" to essentially re-write 2257 was classic republican't action.

The democrats? They pass laws (the magician's flash paper) and then wait for the courts to decide the validity. Can you tell me anyone who was arrested or charged under COPA or COPAII? (hint, it's a short list, looks much like a blank piece of paper).

All politicians will sell us out for the flash of doing it, but only the republicans are mean spirited and abuse the system to shove their conservative christian views up everyone's ass.

[RawAlex]

3) This prosecution wasn't specific to the State of Florida, it was a Federal case. Based on my understanding, this truly could have happened in any of the Federal districts.

Brad, the only difference is that Tampa, Salt Lake City, and a very other very selective places in the US are locations where the government thinks they can get 12 very conservative people who will be disgusted / shocked / revolted by the content put in front of them. The underlying act of all this (videos by mail to Tampa) allowed them to run the case there rather than in LA or New York, example, where they would likely get a jury stacked in the other direction.

So yes, it is a federal case, but they aren't going to try anything grey outside of the ulta conservative areas.

[Brad Mitchell]

Just wanted to add a follow up to my previous post. ChiliHost is a valid offshore hosting option as it's corporation is based out of Curacao.

Cheers,

Brad

[Hell Puppy]

Server location is irrelevant. It's ASS LOCATION that matters.

Push some vile shit that attracts the attention of the feds, and they will trace it to your wallet. Your wallet is next to your ass. If your ass is on U.S. soil or steps onto U.S. soil, then your ass just might end up in jail and the subject of interest of a 350 pound bunk mate named "Bubba".