Mike South punks out Joanna Angel

[gonzo]

Hey Mike... you can quote me in your articles if you want. I aint scared!

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=joannaangel.com/&url=joannaangel.com/

You knew I was right when I told you that! Check out the rest of Mike's hellraising at mikesouth.com
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Joanna Angel To direct for Club Jenna:
Dare we hope she knows anything about directing...nah. At a recent webmaster convention she was on a solo girl site panel. In her opening statement she said her site gets "millions of hits a day" The guy next to me leaned over and said "I didn't know she owned google"

What an idiotic thingto say to a convention of adult webmasters...who know better.
Ya wanna know why porn sucks and and is down 30 or more percent fromlast year? look no further than the LONG list of so called directors who dont know jack shit.

[KevinG]

*SIGH*

I don't even know why I waste my time replying to this, but here goes.

1. First of all, there is no statistic which matters more than your bank account balance.

I don't know for sure, but my guess is that Joanna has many of the people beaten on that one, including myself, Gonzo and Mike South combined.

2. In my opinion, out of all the statistical measurement tools out there, Alexa is one of the most useless and meaningless.

3. The first two points are my opinions. However, it is a FACT that Joanna is an AVN Award Winning director. Reading this post you would think otherwise.

Lastly, regarding the comment about how many hits the web site gets. She probably said that because she is so used to talking to the mainstream media, and that is how we provide them statistics.

We made our decision to quote "hits" to the mainstream, even though we know as professional Internet business people that "hits" are meaningless, but the mainstream media eats up big numbers.

I think it's also safe to say that Joanna gets way more mainstream publicity than most porn performers, writers and directors.

She has been featured in:

The New York Times, The Village Voice, Time Out New York, The New York Press, Esquire UK, Penthouse, SCREW, XBIZ, AVN, Fleshbot, HEEB and The New York Post, which featured her as one of its "Top 25 Sexiest NYers".

She was also a featured sex columnist for Spin Magazine in 2006.

Joanna also holds a B.A. in English from Rutgers University.

And, again, it doesn't matter how many hits or unique visitors you get, unless you make sales.

Here's one of the most impressive stats, imo, for http://joannaangel.com

Fifty percent of our members rebill 5 to 6 months in a row.

[KevinG]

I should mention that I am Joanna's webmaster, in charge of online marketing and traffic.

She also owns http://www.burningangel.com as well, which is a very unique site.

Oh, and back to Mike South for a moment:

Mike South's Alexa. 1,128,632

And have you ever seen any of Mike's dvd's? I guess he thinks he's a pretty good director. lol

[gonzo]

Come on now Kevin... you know she fucked up on that one just like she told all the newbies that the most important thing to do was to shoot content for 3 years instead of worrying about traffic.

The arguement that content is the single most important thing when building a new site just isnt accurate when you consider the difficulty in getting traffic to sites these days. Joanna is lucky that the media considers her unique in the industry. Not to be ranked in the top 100 thousand in Alexa tells me she aint getting millions of hits a day.
That was pure uninformed bullshit. And I know thats what she said because I made the comment to South.

Porn directing . . . beats me. But I do know that its the AVN award winning Mike South. Ill let you 2 decide that one. The video guys and gals sure do have egos these days. Personally I think an AVN award equates to an Xbiz award ... no one really gives a shit.

Alexa is quite useless if you dont know how to read those stats.
IMHO Page Rank is the most over rated and useless stat out there but we will agree to disagree.

That all being said. If she is retaining 5-6 months then in the end thats the only stat that any of us need to worry about.

Im glad you replied and I look forward to promoting that site once I have a traffic source matured.

[gonzo]

I should mention that I am Joanna's webmaster, in charge of online marketing and traffic.

She also owns http://www.burningangel.com as well, which is a very unique site.

Oh, and back to Mike South for a moment:

Mike South's Alexa. 1,128,632

And have you ever seen any of Mike's dvd's? I guess he thinks he's a pretty good director. lol

I havent seen one of Mikes DVD's. But I do own a copy of Repenetrator.

[KevinG]

Come on now Kevin... you know she fucked up on that one just like she told all the newbies that the most important thing to do was to shoot content for 3 years instead of worrying about traffic.

1. I stand by my explanation about quoting hits and do not agree that she "fucked up", but you are entitled to your perception and opinion.

Also, if you get to know Joanna, and also have experience dealing with other porn girls, you would know that she is probably one of the most educated and intelligent of the bunch.

2. Regarding the content vs. traffic debate that arose at Cybernet, I will concede a little bit to you that she did mis-speak a little.

She didn't get the chance to correct herself in public.

She later corrected herself in private conversation, with Hammer standing there to hear it as well.

Her opinion of content vs. traffic is that, hypothetically, if you are new to the business and you have $100,000 to invest, Joanna advises that you budget about $60 - $70,000 of that towards producing your own exclusive, high quality, unique content.

I happen to agree.

I am in charge of generating traffic for BurningAngel.com and JoannaAngel.com, so you know I understand the importance of traffic.

So ... wtf do I send traffic to if there is no content.

And ... more important than that ... in my experience, I have had the greatest success in building the highest quality and highest quantity of traffic when there is a high quantity of very good exclusive content.

Here's the point:

IMO, Content comes first, then traffic. There's always a means to generate traffic if you have great content.

Anyone can disagree, but if they do, it would lead me to believe they do not really know how to generate traffic.

Not to be ranked in the top 100 thousand in Alexa tells me she aint getting millions of hits a day.

I will see what I can do to get some Chinese traffic for her.

Seriously though, it is a huge waste of time to discuss Alexa.

Alexa is quite useless if you dont know how to read those stats.

Alexa is quite useless PERIOD.

IMHO Page Rank is the most over rated and useless stat out there but we will agree to disagree.

I think you are saying that because you know me as a professional SEO, and most professional SEO people worship Google PageRank like you seem to worship Alexa.

However, let me tell you what one of my comments were to the audience when I sat on the traffic panel.

I said, "Google Page Rank means next to nothing and Alexa Rank means less than nothing."

At least we agree on something, and here is a little side note trivia for you.

Google doesn't own PageRank. Stanford University owns it and it is licensed to Google until 2011.

But I do own a copy of Repenetrator.

That's the smartest thing you said in this post ;-)

[KevinG]

If she is retaining 5-6 months then in the end thats the only stat that any of us need to worry about.

Im glad you replied and I look forward to promoting that site once I have a traffic source matured.

I look forward to seeing how much traffic and conversions you can send.

Her affiliate program is here: http://joannabling.com

[gonzo]

I bet Im laughing about this harder than you are.

[Hammer]

Joanna is a very unique case and my concern in the newbie seminar was that her comment didn't apply to 99% of the newbies in that room. Suggesting that the average newbie needs to shoot his/her own exclusive content only applies if that newbie cares to be his own producer (most do not), or, as in her case, that newbie is going to be his/her own content (most do not).

IMO, before any newbie starts shooting his own content, especially 3 years worth, it would be a good idea to see if he/she even has what it takes to learn how to generate traffic to an adult site in the first place. Why waste time and money shooting a bunch of exclusive content if you don't know you can sell it?

The smart thing to do would be to promote someone else's sites until you think you understand what you're doing and then, if you want to produce your own content, start shooting it. Of course, that means I disagree pretty much completely, because in most cases I think traffic is far more important than content. I know plenty of webmasters that are making lots of money promoting some pretty shitty sites.

p.s. As for the Mike South comment, I'm going to stay out of that, because I know that Kevin knows what he's doing and I'm sure her site is doing quite well.

[gonzo]

I look forward to seeing how much traffic and conversions you can send.

Her affiliate program is here: http://joannabling.com

I dont worship Alexa either... but Im mighty fond of google ad words.

[gonzo]

Joanna is a very unique case and my concern in the newbie seminar was that her comment didn't apply to 99% of the newbies in that room. Suggesting that the average newbie needs to shoot his/her own exclusive content only applies if that newbie cares to be his own producer (most do not), or, as in her case, that newbie is going to be his/her own content (most do not).

IMO, before any newbie starts shooting his own content, especially 3 years worth, it would be a good idea to see if he/she even has what it takes to learn how to generate traffic to an adult site in the first place. Why waste time and money shooting a bunch of exclusive content if you don't know you can sell it?

The smart thing to do would be to promote someone else's sites until you think you understand what you're doing and then, if you want to produce your own content, start shooting it. Of course, that means I disagree pretty much completely, because in most cases I think traffic is far more important than content. I know plenty of webmasters that are making lots of money promoting some pretty shitty sites.

p.s. As for the Mike South comment, I'm going to stay out of that, because I know that Kevin knows what he's doing and I'm sure her site is doing quite well.
That wrestler chick that was in the back of the room might whip your ass for saying that!

All in all Cybernet Expo was very informative and continues to be a month later. Sometimes its not what was said in these seminars that is as important as what you take out of them.

I think we will all agree this isnt a shitty site we are talking about to promote.

[KevinG]

Actually, what I laughed about most was at the show, hearing about all these people coming up to you two guys for the rest of the weekend being mad at you for fighting with Joanna in public. LOL!

Joanna's site is doing well, her overall business is doing well.

Let's not let the latest news get missed, which was in the original thread starting post. She just signed a contract to direct for Club Jenna, which is owned by Playboy.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm impressed.

There's a ton of new stuff in the works beyond that.

JoannaAngel.com is being re-designed this month with an anticipated re-launch for Internext in August.

A new site, Burning Angel Entertainment will coming out in a month or so, with downloadable clips from the DVDs, which have never been available online before.

The original site that kicked off Joanna's business, BurningAngel.com will be re-designed and re-launched in late Summer or early Fall.

Not bad for a 26 year old porn girl running her own business.

[KevinG]

In general, I agree with Hammer.

A newbie would be best advised to work on learning how to run a web site, get traffic to it, and then send that traffic out to money making destinations.

In this specific case though, the context of Joanna's advise was based on someone already deciding they wanted to have a pay site and that they had $100,000 to invest.

Now I have to go generate a gazillion, bazillion, trillion, million hits. Anyone know where I can buy some Chinese traffic?

[KevinG]

Suggesting that the average newbie needs to shoot his/her own exclusive content only applies if that newbie cares to be his own producer (most do not), or, as in her case, that newbie is going to be his/her own content (most do not).

Not always.

There are lots of professional producers and models / performers for hire that one can contract with to have exclusive content produced.

I do it all the time.

[Hammer]

Not always.

There are lots of professional producers and models / performers for hire that one can contract with to have exclusive content produced.

I do it all the time.
That still doesn't mean that newbies with $100,000 to start a pay site with should jump right in and start buying up $60,000 worth of content before they even know that they'll be able to market the site they put it in.

I for one seriously doubt that Playboy would have hired Joanna to direct if she wasn't qualified so somehow it seems to me that Mike South's comment was made out of jealousy.

[KevinG]

I for one seriously doubt that Playboy would have hired Joanna to direct if she wasn't qualified so somehow it seems to me that Mike South's comment was made out of jealousy.

Ya think? LOL!

[Toby]

I was at Cybernet and attended the Newbie 101 and Solo Girl Sites seminars. I think the crux of this whole issue is that Joanna's content comment was given without any preface that it only applied to someone in a similar situation to her own. For the remaining 90%+ it would actually be bad advice.

Making such a statement without first making it quite clear that it only applies under very specific circumstances was just a little bit irresponsible.

[gonzo]

That still doesn't mean that newbies with $100,000 to start a pay site with should jump right in and start buying up $60,000 worth of content before they even know that they'll be able to market the site they put it in.

I for one seriously doubt that Playboy would have hired Joanna to direct if she wasn't qualified so somehow it seems to me that Mike South's comment was made out of jealousy.
Playboy isnt known fr its past vdeo or online prowess. Lets hope this is the start of something good. I ant to see my stock grow!

[KevinG]

I was at Cybernet and attended the Newbie 101 and Solo Girl Sites seminars. I think the crux of this whole issue is that Joanna's content comment was given without any preface that it only applied to someone in a similar situation to her own. For the remaining 90%+ it would actually be bad advice.

Making such a statement without first making it quite clear that it only applies under very specific circumstances was just a little bit irresponsible.

Ok, but please allow me to correct a little detail.

The main comment being discussed here is regarding the content vs. traffic issue. She made that comment while sitting in the audience of the newbie seminar, not while she was on the solo girl panel.

The comment mentioned from the solo girl panel was regarding how many hits her web site gets.

Not that it really matters. I am just a detail oriented person and felt like pointing that out.

Edit: I think you changed your original post to include Newbie 101 while I was typing this. Either that, or I am not as detail oriented as I thought. LOL!

[Hammer]

Playboy isnt known fr its past vdeo or online prowess. Lets hope this is the start of something good. I ant to see my stock grow!
Any Playboy video I've seen always seemed to be well directed.

[gonzo]

Any Playboy video I've seen always seemed to be well directed.
I thnk Ill go buy a Mike South DVD.

[Hammer]

I thnk Ill go buy a Mike South DVD.
I'd like to see it when you're done. I'm always interested in seeing work from top notch directors.

[TheEnforcer]

Ahhh.. the old chicken vs the egg dilemma. Traffic or content.

A couple things...

1- IMHO- traffic is and always will be king. If a webmaster has traffic they can ALWAYS make money with it somehow. Even the shittiest traffic has value to somone you can dump it to and make money.... Having that stream of money/traffic is important and learning how to get the traffic stream is paramount these days.

Sponsor plug- And if you have good traffic you can send it places like http://www.2.livejasmin.com/advertise/ and get paid well for it.

2-Exclusive custom content is always a good thing to have but I need plenty of people to see it to lewverage it and make it pay off in a big way long term.

3- If anyone was mad at Gonzo and Hammer for pointing this out at the seminar well, let me just say, they shouldn't have been. Those panels often have people with competing views on them and at times they will and should be challenged on their views on an issue.

4- Gonzo is gonna be on a panel again in Florida. Can't remember what the issue is off hand but I am sure oif you disagree with his advice on the topic he would welcome people to challenge him on it.

5- No idea who's the better director between the Mike and Joanna and am only familiar with them by name and not what their work is like. I haven't rented an adult video in years now. That said, I am sure both have their fans that love their work.

[KevinG]

4- Gonzo is gonna be on a panel again in Florida. Can't remember what the issue is off hand but I am sure if you disagree with his advice on the topic he would welcome people to challenge him on it.


There goes my plan to just hang out at the pool with Hammer, Kelly (from Rackco) and Laura, drinking and smoking cigars.

Now I have to go to at least one of the seminars.

Fucking Gonzo! ;-)

[gonzo]

4- Gonzo is gonna be on a panel again in Florida. Can't remember what the issue is off hand but I am sure oif you disagree with his advice on the topic he would welcome people to challenge him on it.

AVN lost their mind I guess. First they have me profiled in the magazine this month...[not on the cover like Joanna though!] and now its a panel in Miami.

Saturday, August 4, 1:00pm – 2:30pm
</STRONG>Think Tank: Community Sites: Community sites and user-submitted content present both challenges and opportunities to adult entertainment entrepreneurs. What's going to be the next big thing in the realm, and — more importantly - how will these sites make money?


If no one else shows maybe me and Womack can teabag each other.

[Hammer]

AVN lost their mind I guess. First they have me profiled in the magazine this month...[not on the cover like Joanna though!] and now its a panel in Miami.

Saturday, August 4, 1:00pm – 2:30pm
</STRONG>Think Tank: Community Sites: Community sites and user-submitted content present both challenges and opportunities to adult entertainment entrepreneurs. What's going to be the next big thing in the realm, and — more importantly - how will these sites make money?


If no one else shows maybe me and Womack can teabag each other.
If Womack's on the panel you won't get a word in edge wise.

[KevinG]

Here's the new design concept in case anyone is interested.
http://joannaangel.com/home_002.jpg

[softball]

I think this whole thread is hilarious and shit. Not to put to fine a point on it.
Firstly an avn award means nothing in the real world. Gimme a break. Best blow job of the year? LMFAO. Secondly, it takes not talent to direct porn.
Can I say that again? No talent. I have worked in film and tv most of my life at a very high level and what I do now is thumbsucker crap. However it makes a shitpot of money and it looks the way it should to do that. It is cheap as chips...not even the budget of a lens rental....to produce a video. Hell give me a ten grand budget and I will give you the porn remake of gone with the freeking wind (just kidding, but you get my drift). So who the fuck cares about an avn award. I wouldn't even put that on my mantel. My friends would just laugh.
Traffic is not freeking king. It is an heir apparent and possibly a crown prince. I like traffic. In fact I love traffic. But my business is content. I often wonder if traffic is king why there are so many broke ass traffic rats making a few thousand a month and crowing like playas. I would guess, and this is just based on anecdotal observations, that the "average" content producer makes more than the "average" traffic rat.
Don't get me wrong, because, contrary to popular belief I am not an idiot, I appreciate and respect both traffic and content because in perfect harmony, they produce a business that you can make a shitp0t of money and not work too terribly hard. In fact in this business it seems the less you work, the more money you make.

[Hell Puppy]

Pop quiz: If you have $10K worth of traffic and $10K worth of content, which one can you be certain will make money?

[Hell Puppy]

My 2 cents on this whole thing since I was there at Cybernet...

I'm prone to sit and observe unless I really know everyone around well, that's my personality. But that has some advantages....I do more listening than talking. I learn alot. Now in the case of something like a newbie seminar or solo girls seminar, not much you can teach this old dog, but I'm not arrogant enough not to be open to new ideas. But this isn't the reason I go. I go looking for new and fresh people to partner with or send traffic to.

Joanna doesn't come across as the typical ditzy content girl. I agreed with the bulk of what she said at the solo girls seminar. However, she does come across with a tad bit of ego....or perhaps not so much that as I dont think she realizes what she does NOT know. I've always said it's as important to know what you dont know as it is to know what you do.

What works for her, her niche, her content, and her name wont work for 98% or more of this industry. You cant use it as a road map. That's the problem with her comments on the newbie panel. Crawl before you walk should've been the message. Promote some other peoples programs, learn how to sell, learn how to market, learn how to get the traffic to it. And if you do want to go the exclusive route, even if you have that built in content with a hot wife or girlfriend who is willing to do cam shows and show it all on the web, you still need to learn the psychology. Hell, learn to shoot while you're at it.

Doesn't take a genius to be a porn director, but at least learn how to use your equipment, render a decent sized video, shoot stills that aren't dark and cold, etc.

[softball]

Pop quiz: If you have $10K worth of traffic and $10K worth of content, which one can you be certain will make money?

That is a no brainer. It depends who is driving the train. Now 10k worth of content won't make a penny without traffic....duh. But 10K worth of traffic won't make a penny without content....ok it might make a few cents but big deal. What exactly was your point? Traffic guys suffer from a huge insecurity complex because they produce nada and seem to have to make a big deal about what they are worth. Ultimately content is king no matter how you slice the cake. Creativity will always prevail. I would venture to guess that those who make content ultimately make the most money. Not to say that there are not lots of traffic guys that do well, but over the long haul content will be more secure. Kind of like investing in real estate. You have a real product to sell.

[gonzo]

That is a no brainer. It depends who is driving the train. Now 10k worth of content won't make a penny without traffic....duh. But 10K worth of traffic won't make a penny without content....ok it might make a few cents but big deal. What exactly was your point? Traffic guys suffer from a huge insecurity complex because they produce nada and seem to have to make a big deal about what they are worth. Ultimately content is king no matter how you slice the cake. Creativity will always prevail. I would venture to guess that those who make content ultimately make the most money. Not to say that there are not lots of traffic guys that do well, but over the long haul content will be more secure. Kind of like investing in real estate. You have a real product to sell.

If you are talking the present and forward I would agree with you.
In the past you forget the guys sending hits to places like Xpix or spamming the fuck out of the SE's and even conjuring their way in as a Dmoz editor.

Not much cash invested only time and a little scamming.

[softball]

If you are talking the present and forward I would agree with you.
In the past you forget the guys sending hits to places like Xpix or spamming the fuck out of the SE's and even conjuring their way in as a Dmoz editor.

Not much cash invested only time and a little scamming.

Scamming is one thing. Doing honest business is another. You can also sell cocaine and get very rich, but that is also scummy and scammy.
If we are talking about honest business and how it works, I stand by my earlier post. Content is ultimately king.

[bluemoney]

Doesn't take a genius to be a porn director . . . That's prolly true, but I sure would love to see a few more Andrew Blake's in the biz.

[gonzo]

That's prolly true, but I sure would love to see a few more Andrew Blake's in the biz.
Andrew is a very interesting guy.
Ive met him a couple of times first time 2 years ago talking with him and Earl Miller.

Last year he got one of the guys girlfriends to show him her tits at the AVN Expo.

Im pissed becasue he didnt tell me ahead of time.
Apparently he is a ladies man too!

[Hell Puppy]

That's prolly true, but I sure would love to see a few more Andrew Blake's in the biz.

I dunno....that's what I thought the fast forward button was for...

[Hell Puppy]

That is a no brainer. It depends who is driving the train. Now 10k worth of content won't make a penny without traffic....duh. But 10K worth of traffic won't make a penny without content....ok it might make a few cents but big deal. What exactly was your point? Traffic guys suffer from a huge insecurity complex because they produce nada and seem to have to make a big deal about what they are worth. Ultimately content is king no matter how you slice the cake. Creativity will always prevail. I would venture to guess that those who make content ultimately make the most money. Not to say that there are not lots of traffic guys that do well, but over the long haul content will be more secure. Kind of like investing in real estate. You have a real product to sell.

The thing is, the guys with the content are always willing to pay for traffic.

Even I have always had a few hundred sites in the portfolio that are essentially nothing more than an "enter" link that goes off to someone else's pay site. There are certain niches that I have traffic for that I have no desire to produce the content for myself, so I'm perfectly willing to ship that off to someone who does and let them pay me.

Now if that were the other way around, if I had pics of "Midgets and Nazis" for instance, but no midget or nazi traffic, well all I have is a good conversation piece.

[gonzo]

The thing is, the guys with the content are always willing to pay for traffic.

Even I have always had a few hundred sites in the portfolio that are essentially nothing more than an "enter" link that goes off to someone else's pay site. There are certain niches that I have traffic for that I have no desire to produce the content for myself, so I'm perfectly willing to ship that off to someone who does and let them pay me.

Now if that were the other way around, if I had pics of "Midgets and Nazis" for instance, but no midget or nazi traffic, well all I have is a good conversation piece.

AEBN has midget porn