DirectNic Demands SlicksNetwork.com Hand Over Model IDs

[lukeford]

In a move that could indicate further scrutiny by domain registrars, DirectNic has demanded that TGP operator SlickNetwork.com hand over model IDs on all performers it suspects are underage.

More... (http://www.xbiz.com/news_piece.php?id=18587)

[softball]

Now this should be interesting. Curiouser and curiouser.

[gonzo]

Could there be a lot more driving behind this than anyone is aware of?

Directnic stepped up in my book as far as ethics go.

Businesswise... Im not sure if they didnt open a can of worms or not.

[Hell Puppy]

Yeah, this one is a bit of an odd move on the surface. I hate scammers, kiddie porn and whatever other trash they might be seeing on those sites. And I can appreciate the integrity of opting not to business with them.

But a bit of a risky move. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with a registrar appointing themselves to be the internet police.

[Jace]

I am on the fence with this now, while I can see the side that they are covering their asses, I don't like the fact that the email said "do this by monday or we shut your sites down"

regardless, there should be industry standard protocols in place for situations like this that all hosts/billers/registrars comply with when a issue arises

as it stands right now, like most of what we do, it is every man for himself

[softball]

Could there be a lot more driving behind this than anyone is aware of?

Directnic stepped up in my book as far as ethics go.

Businesswise... Im not sure if they didnt open a can of worms or not.

Ethics? I think not. This sucks. No trial. Just their decision as to what is illegal or not. Locking the account so they can't move on really is pretentious. Judge and jury. This is redneck justice....a lynch mob.
Isn't this the company that was accused of stealing "who is" inquiries? Come on folks. Don't you think there is an ulterior motive here?
http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=47047&highlight=directnic

[Jace]

and so it begins

even though Mike AI said he would extend the time in which Slick had to gather the ID's, his sites are all shut down now

http://www.reallyeighteen.com/
http://www.amateurcurves.com/

[Peaches]

and so it begins

even though Mike AI said he would extend the time in which Slick had to gather the ID's, his sites are all shut down now

http://www.reallyeighteen.com/
http://www.amateurcurves.com/
1. I didn't see Michael saying they extended the time, Slick said a letter from DirectNic's lawyer said they extended the time
2. I strongly suspect something else is up. DirectNic is loaded with attorneys. They aren't going to do something to put themselves in a bad legal situation.

[Jace]

1. I didn't see Michael saying they extended the time, Slick said a letter from DirectNic's lawyer said they extended the time
2. I strongly suspect something else is up. DirectNic is loaded with attorneys. They aren't going to do something to put themselves in a bad legal situation.

Well, my attorney got an email reply from DirectNic. They want me to confirm the models ages of the first 14 thumbs on Major Pervert. If I can do that, they say they'll let this go.

They did also extend the deadline, although they didn't state until when, so they are willing to work with me and making it easier on my by requesting for 14 thumbs rather than every one, so they re being more reasonable and willing to get this solved, I do appreciate that.

I really don't think he would lie about that

I don't think anything else is up at all, I think there is a serious lack of communication between mike and his employees and they basically just ruined someones day

i will agree with most though and say the content on those tgp's was WAY questionable, still I don't think it should be in the hands of the registrar to shut the sites down while the site owner is trying to resolve things with you

[Jace]

DirectNic is loaded with attorneys.

I just called up DirectNic support and they said I was shut down due to illegal content. I asked for a phone number for the legal department, but they said they didn't have one.

um.......ok?

[Elli]

Highly interesting. If a company acts like it bears responsibility for the content, then it makes them legally liable, yes? Regardless of previously stated laws?

So they're going to start policing all their accounts, I'm assuming. Is this them taking the high road of "self regulation" or is there more behind it?

[gonzo]

Highly interesting. If a company acts like it bears responsibility for the content, then it makes them legally liable, yes? Regardless of previously stated laws?

So they're going to start policing all their accounts, I'm assuming. Is this them taking the high road of "self regulation" or is there more behind it?
Beats me. But can you tell me if Lars has been freed from the clutches of that evil Zango company?

[Jace]

I guess I am going to bow out of the debate for now until Mike posts something or let's someone know something

there is obviously more to this than is being said

[softball]

I still think that any registrar that feels uncomfortable with a domain it has registered can a: report it to the proper authorities and b: let the "offender" move on to another registrar. This flies in the face of "innocent until proven guilty".

America is becoming one great paranoid witch hunt of late. You gotta watch what you write. You gotta watch what you say. Or someone might turn you in. It feels like the Soviet Union.
Can you say McCarthy kids?

[softball]

I guess I am going to bow out of the debate for now until Mike posts something or let's someone know something

there is obviously more to this than is being said
I truly hope there is because on the surface, it is a book burning.

[softball]

OK, here is a possible scenario. A Canadian registers his domain with Directnic. Directnic decides he is posting dodgy stuff so demands id's or Directnic will lock up his domain and virtually shut him down.
Here is the cunundrum.
The Canadian government says that is illegal and the Canadian citizen could be prosecuted for doing what Directnic demands.
What is this "innocent" person supposed to do in this case? Roll over and provide the id and possibly go to jail? Or get shut down because someone at Directnic has decided that it is illegal content.
This is a pandora's box of ethical issues.

[gonzo]

I still want to know which sponsors have that questionable teen content.

For directnic to get lawyered up about it makes me wonder.

[Hammer]

Jace, why are you saying they're just covering their asses? They are merely the registrant of the name, they have absolutely no legal responsibility in what the domain is used for.

This is total horseshit and it's illegal. I knew MikeAI was a Republican, but I sure didn't expect him to go from being a pornographer to a fucking zealot.

Just like reformed smokers. They like it just fine while they're doing it, but preach against it with a fervor when they quit.

This is the same as the bullshit with Crissy Moran. She went from being a porn whore to a zealot overnight.

p.s. Why the hell does anyone pay DirectNic $15 a year when they can use GoDaddy and pay $8?

[Peaches]

I can 100% guarantee you Michael knew absolutely nothing about this until Slick made his post on GFY and someone contacted Michael. He's an owner - he's not involved in the day to day activities of the biz.

Yes, Jace, they have a legal team. It's pretty standard to tell someone basically cold calling to contact their legal team by email. IBM would probably tell you the same thing. Intercosmos is huge. DirectNic isn't the only thing they do and even moreso, I doubt the adult domains are their biggest business.

This is PURELY speculation on my end, but I can easily see someone contacting the government agencies months and months ago about these sites - this didn't just happen overnight. I haven't seen the sites (I don't even click on that shit) but even those on Slick's side and against DN said they very much looked like CP.

If DN cut him off w/o reason, he has a good lawsuit. First he needs to find a good lawyer. It seems whomever he has now isn't doing him much good.

[gonzo]

If DN cut him off w/o reason, he has a good lawsuit. First he needs to find a good lawyer. It seems whomever he has now isn't doing him much good.
I think hes being advised by the same people that are advising Lars.

[softball]

"This is total horseshit and it's illegal. I knew MikeAI was a Republican, but I sure didn't expect him to go from being a pornographer to a fucking zealot."

Yeah its the Joe Kennedy school of business.

[sudden]

I think hes being advised by the same people that are advising Lars.

You sure know how to beat a dead horse. Bitching about the same fucking thing .. and I dont just mean this, but every.. fucking.. thing.. over.. and.. over.. again..

It's like you like dragging shit thru mud not just once or twice, but until the river of mud has been entirely absorbed by whatever you're dragging.

And I'm not arguing about if what Lars did is good or bad, merely the fact that the majority of your posts contain bitching in the same fashion about a subject that changes about once every two to four weeks.

[gonzo]

You sure know how to beat a dead horse. Bitching about the same fucking thing .. and I dont just mean this, but every.. fucking.. thing.. over.. and.. over.. again..

It's like you like dragging shit thru mud not just once or twice, but until the river of mud has been entirely absorbed by whatever you're dragging.

And I'm not arguing about if what Lars did is good or bad, merely the fact that the majority of your posts contain bitching in the same fashion about a subject that changes about once every two to four weeks.

Ok lets talk about the business model of using a bogus virus scan that tells you that your machine is infected and even pops out the CD tray to encourage the surfer to get the "cure" which is nothing more than a trojan for adware.

[softball]

Ok lets talk about the business model of using a bogus virus scan that tells you that your machine is infected and even pops out the CD tray to encourage the surfer to get the "cure" which is nothing more than a trojan for adware.
I'm with Gonzo on this. But not on the kid gloves attitude to Directnic which I think....and do most of the boards I have read today....that it is outrageous.

[gonzo]

I'm with Gonzo on this. But not on the kid gloves attitude to Directnic which I think....and do most of the boards I have read today....that it is outrageous.
I dont think he will want to talk about it.

[softball]

I dont think he will want to talk about it.
Oh I am sure. But unless you know something that most don't, then something is really off the rails here. Putting someone out of business on a whim (or so it seems since there has been no directnic response) is just outrageous. That is, unless you are trying to go for another market...ie straight mainstream market, and are trying to position your company as a porn buster. Like I said, Joe Kennedy.

[tony404]

Internet policing ? its called a industry regulating itself or the government starts regulating for you. Imagine if everyone policed cp on line instead of waiting for the police. If you got proof everyone is of age ,you really got nothing to worry about.There would be no safe place for cp to happen in the internet world. oh I forgot in the online world its everyone's god given right to do whatever the fuck they want until they are arrested.
Then they cry why do they pick on us. lol

[gonzo]

Oh I am sure. But unless you know something that most don't, then something is really off the rails here. Putting someone out of business on a whim (or so it seems since there has been no directnic response) is just outrageous. That is, unless you are trying to go for another market...ie straight mainstream market, and are trying to position your company as a porn buster. Like I said, Joe Kennedy.

Ive seen the same thing as everyone else has concerning directnic.

Ill wait and see how this develops.

[softball]

Internet policing ? its called a industry regulating itself or the government starts regulating for you. Imagine if everyone policed cp on line instead of waiting for the police. If you got proof everyone is of age ,you really got nothing to worry about.There would be no safe place for cp to happen in the internet world. oh I forgot in the online world its everyone's god given right to do whatever the fuck they want until they are arrested.
Then they cry why do they pick on us. lol

Not everyone is legally able to give out that information unless it is to the proper legal authorities. So what do you do then

[Hammer]

It's not DN's job to 'police' anything and since when is DirectNic part of this industry that you think should be policing itself? This isn't a case of policing ourselves, this is a case of an outside source policing us and doing it illegally.

[sarettah]

It's not DN's job to 'police' anything and since when is DirectNic part of this industry that you think should be policing itself? This isn't a case of policing ourselves, this is a case of an outside source policing us and doing it illegally.

Hammer, I propose to you the same bet I proposed with rhetorical http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=51383

[Hammer]

It blows my mind when I see people supporting what DN is doing considering the industry we're in. We are constantly fighting for our constitutrional rights in this business and along comes an organization that tramples all over them and instead of getting pissed off, some of you are actually condoning their actions. Unbelievable.

[Hammer]

Hammer, I propose to you the same bet I proposed with rhetorical http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=51383
It'll be a shame to see you go.

[softball]

It blows my mind when I see people supporting what DN is doing considering the industry we're in. We are constantly fighting for our constitutrional rights in this business and along comes an organization that tramples all over them and instead of getting pissed off, some of you are actually condoning their actions. Unbelievable.

I have seen some, but very little support out there. But when shit like this happens there are always a few. I would assume that after this Directnic will be out of the adult reg business by the sound of it. But that could be the plan.

[sarettah]

It'll be a shame to see you go.

I take it that that is an aceptance :okthumb:

We are constantly fighting for our constitutrional rights in this business and along comes an organization that tramples all over them

Last I checked, your constitutional rights end right at my doorstep.

[softball]

Last I checked, your constitutional rights end right at my doorstep.

Not being a constitutional expert, I would guess you are very wrong on that count. You might think about checking again.

[Hammer]

I take it that that is an aceptance :okthumb:
Sure, why not. Oprano won't miss either of us.


Last I checked, your constitutional rights end right at my doorstep.
huh? I'm guessing you mean if I come into your house you have the right to do illegal things to me because I no longer have any rights? So you could rape me and it would be okay. Or you could rob me or kill me? Since none of those are true, just what constitutional rights end at your doorstep? You can't even shoot me unless your life is threatened and even then a good attorney could get you convicted of murder.

But, what does any of that have to do with the current argument that what DirectNic did is unconstitutional?

[sarettah]

Sure, why not. Oprano won't miss either of us.

huh? I'm guessing you mean if I come into your house you have the right to do illegal things to me because I no longer have any rights? So you could rape me and it would be okay. Or you could rob me or kill me? Since none of those are true, just what constitutional rights end at your doorstep? You can't even shoot me unless your life is threatened and even then a good attorney could get you convicted of murder.

But, what does any of that have to do with the current argument that what DirectNic did is unconstitutional?


lolol...You are confused. You are listing things that are against the law not things that are your constitutional right.

Let's see now.


Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Your right to free speech ends at my doorstep as I can have you arrested for walking into my house and abusing me verbally. Your right to exercise your religion ends at my doorstep, again, you come in and throw down some prayer mats and start praying and if I call the cops, you will be at least escorted from my house if not arrested. Yor right to assemble ends at my doorstep, go ahead get a few people to assemble in my living room uninvited and the cops will again remove you for me.


Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

You bring a weapon into my house and again, the cops will help me out, not you. In fact, in Florida if you bring a weapon into my house I can shoot your ass.


Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Unless of course I put the condition that you are subject to search and seizure upon entering my doorstep. In fact, if you bring personal articles into my house and I grab them and search them you would have absolutely no legal recourse.


Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


You can't be compelled to be a witness against yourself but if you tell me something in confidence and I take it to the authorities, it not only can be used against you but as Joe Friday would say, it WILL be used against you so you have incriminated yourself even though you have the right not to.

(Favorite Ron White line: I had the right to remain silent, unfortunately......I didn't have the ability)

What this has to do with the directnic thing is that they are a private company, they created terms and conditions for a contract with them and those terms and conditions were agreed to. Unless a court of law says that those terms and conditions are not enforceable then those terms and conditions stand. Since no court has made such a detemination then for right now that contract must be considered valid. In fact, the lack of action by Slick and his layer to get an injunction against directnic not allowing them to enforce their contract would indicate to me that his lawyer is thinking that the contract is enforceable.

If the contract were so blatantly unenforceable as everyone is saying, so blatantly unconstitutional as all the gfy lawyers say, it would take about $300 and half a day to get in front of a federal judge to get an injunction prohibiting directnic from taking the actions they did. And yes, it would be federal because slick and directnic are not in the same state and it is therefore related to interstate commerce which is completely the feds purview.

When Slick agreed to directnic's terms and conditions, he set foot inside of their doorstep and as I said, the constitution ends at my doorstep (in this case directnic's doorstep).

This is not free speech case. This is a contract case, pure and simple.

[sarettah]

Sure, why not. Oprano won't miss either of us.



Well, I really don't have the dislike for you that I do for rhetorical so how's bout we make it a monetary bet instead. I can go to $100. I'm not rich so I am not willing to gamble $1000 like the bigwigs are...lol... But make it wherever you feel comfortable between $1 and $100 (or a couple of drinks at a show) and I would be just as ageeable.

Either way works for me :)

[Hammer]

Well, I really don't have the dislike for you that I do for rhetorical so how's bout we make it a monetary bet instead. I can go to $100. I'm not rich so I am not willing to gamble $1000 like the bigwigs are...lol... But make it wherever you feel comfortable between $1 and $100 (or a couple of drinks at a show) and I would be just as ageeable.

Either way works for me :)
Okay, you can just buy me a couple of drinks at the next show.

[sarettah]

Okay, you can just buy me a couple of drinks at the next show.

I will look forward to a few Hammer beers myself :okthumb:

[tony404]

Not everyone is legally able to give out that information unless it is to the proper legal authorities. So what do you do then

to prove age a blacked out picture id with only pic and birthdate showing. Your giving no personal info away.

[softball]

to prove age a blacked out picture id with only pic and birthdate showing. Your giving no personal info away.

I would have to consult a lawyer on that, but I would bet that would be illegal as well.

[sarettah]

I would have to consult a lawyer on that, but I would bet that would be illegal as well.

Hmmmm. So all the sites that set up profiles of girls with their pic and dob in their profile are breaking the law? Many of them are getting that info from their sponsors, so I guess the sponsors are breaking the law too? I have many model releases from content providers and such and I don't have any that have the model's permission to post that stuff on line. I guess all the gossip sites that have celebrity birthdays and pics on them and sites like imdb that have the date of birth and death and a bio are all in violation of the law as you see it.

Damn, you are such a constitutional genius rhetorical.

[softball]

Hmmmm. So all the sites that set up profiles of girls with their pic and dob in their profile are breaking the law? Many of them are getting that info from their sponsors, so I guess the sponsors are breaking the law too? I have many model releases from content providers and such and I don't have any that have the model's permission to post that stuff on line. I guess all the gossip sites that have celebrity birthdays and pics on them and sites like imdb that have the date of birth and death and a bio are all in violation of the law as you see it.

Damn, you are such a constitutional genius rhetorical.
And like I said, you are ignorant. I live in Canada and yes it is illegal. Now, go do a little research and cut and paste something. Duh, I hate to have to explain things that are patently obvious.

[LadyMischief]

Hmmmm. So all the sites that set up profiles of girls with their pic and dob in their profile are breaking the law? Many of them are getting that info from their sponsors, so I guess the sponsors are breaking the law too? I have many model releases from content providers and such and I don't have any that have the model's permission to post that stuff on line. I guess all the gossip sites that have celebrity birthdays and pics on them and sites like imdb that have the date of birth and death and a bio are all in violation of the law as you see it.

Damn, you are such a constitutional genius rhetorical.

If the girls themselves are silly enough to share their ID, they are within their rights to do so. HOWEVER, if you are in Canada and you collect ID's, you CANNOT LEGALLY DISTRIBUTE THEM IN ANY WAY without permission or a release from the legal ID holder. This applies to content producers as well, not only does their model release have to incorporate a release for the content producer to keep the content on record, but there must be a sepereate part of the release allowing it to be distributed to neccessary parties (for 2257 purposes). Anyone other than a government agent, or someone who has through release been given permission to recieve the ID, or been handed it personally from the legal ID holder, CANNOT LEGALLY request that ID in Canada, and if someone were to provide it, they would be in Violation of the Personal Information Protection Act and would be subject to jailtime in excess of 10+ years. If it was going cross-border, the fines/jailtime are even steeper, because it was Cross-border data flow of personal information that brought the laws into effect in the first place.

How do I know? My personal lawyer is one of the forefront experts of PIPA in Canada, and in fact he put together a legal seminar for a few years ago on just this subject and how it affect Canadian adult webmasters/content producers. Many major Canadian-based programs attended and I still have all the information, should you be interested.

Bottom line. If DirectNIC were to request the same information from a Canadian company and hold their domains in lock, said Canadian company would spend more time in jail/pay more fines than if they could somehow be extradited to the US and IF they were guilty, be charged under any kind of 2257 offenses. Canada is NOT the only country that has laws this strict, and I'm quite sure there are correlating US state laws that cover privacy/identify theft issues.

[sarettah]

If the girls themselves are silly enough to share their ID, they are within their rights to do so. HOWEVER, if you are in Canada and you collect ID's, you CANNOT LEGALLY DISTRIBUTE THEM IN ANY WAY without permission or a release from the legal ID holder. This applies to content producers as well, not only does their model release have to incorporate a release for the content producer to keep the content on record, but there must be a sepereate part of the release allowing it to be distributed to neccessary parties (for 2257 purposes). Anyone other than a government agent, or someone who has through release been given permission to recieve the ID, or been handed it personally from the legal ID holder, CANNOT LEGALLY request that ID in Canada, and if someone were to provide it, they would be in Violation of the Personal Information Protection Act and would be subject to jailtime in excess of 10+ years. If it was going cross-border, the fines/jailtime are even steeper, because it was Cross-border data flow of personal information that brought the laws into effect in the first place.

How do I know? My personal lawyer is one of the forefront experts of PIPA in Canada, and in fact he put together a legal seminar for a few years ago on just this subject and how it affect Canadian adult webmasters/content producers. Many major Canadian-based programs attended and I still have all the information, should you be interested.

Bottom line. If DirectNIC were to request the same information from a Canadian company and hold their domains in lock, said Canadian company would spend more time in jail/pay more fines than if they could somehow be extradited to the US and IF they were guilty, be charged under any kind of 2257 offenses. Canada is NOT the only country that has laws this strict, and I'm quite sure there are correlating US state laws that cover privacy/identify theft issues.

So, the whois databases aren't allowed to list canadian names and addresses?

[softball]

So, the whois databases aren't allowed to list canadian names and addresses?
That is stretching the argument to the extreme. Not a lot of model's nor employees addresses on who is lists.

[sarettah]

That is stretching the argument to the extreme. Not a lot of model's nor employees addresses on who is lists.

So, the canadian privacy laws only apply to models and employees?

I am trying to understand here great constitutional master.

[softball]

So, the canadian privacy laws only apply to models and employees?

I am trying to understand here great constitutional master.
Try and wrap your head around this, brain of America. Now pay attention....models are employees. Privacy laws apply to anyone who you hire and have a social insurance number for. If this is another garden path gotcha kind of thing, just piss off. Because it is obvious for what the laws are intended. Read what Lady Mischief wrote and if you are having a real problem figuring that out, there is always google. Nice to see you have cleaned up your vocabulary though. That is a step in the right direction.

I am getting weary of having to explain the obvious to you. I am beginning to change my opinion of you from ignorance to stupidity. I certainly hope it isn't actually both.

[tony404]

Try and wrap your head around this, brain of America. Now pay attention....models are employees. Privacy laws apply to anyone who you hire and have a social insurance number for. If this is another garden path gotcha kind of thing, just piss off. Because it is obvious for what the laws are intended. Read what Lady Mischief wrote and if you are having a real problem figuring that out, there is always google. Nice to see you have cleaned up your vocabulary though. That is a step in the right direction.

I am getting weary of having to explain the obvious to you. I am beginning to change my opinion of you from ignorance to stupidity. I certainly hope it isn't actually both.

If on the id all that is showing is the birthdate and the picture. I cant see how that would a privacy issue. Do you guys know for sure or is it guessing ?

[softball]

If on the id all that is showing is the birthdate and the picture. I cant see how that would a privacy issue. Do you guys know for sure or is it guessing ?

As I posted earlier, I wasn't totally sure. However, I would guess, as in most of these grey areas, that there would be a few legal opinons on that. Certainly not one I would like to challenge in a court of law. I would err on the side of caution rather than gamble with a jail sentence.
Edit: Also would any registrar accept something that had been photoshopped or altered to hide anything. Prolly not.

[sarettah]

Try and wrap your head around this, brain of America. Now pay attention....models are employees. Privacy laws apply to anyone who you hire and have a social insurance number for. If this is another garden path gotcha kind of thing, just piss off. Because it is obvious for what the laws are intended. Read what Lady Mischief wrote and if you are having a real problem figuring that out, there is always google. Nice to see you have cleaned up your vocabulary though. That is a step in the right direction.

I am getting weary of having to explain the obvious to you. I am beginning to change my opinion of you from ignorance to stupidity. I certainly hope it isn't actually both.

Anyone other than a government agent, or someone who has through release been given permission to recieve the ID, or been handed it personally from the legal ID holder, CANNOT LEGALLY request that ID in Canada, and if someone were to provide it, they would be in Violation of the Personal Information Protection Act and would be subject to jailtime in excess of 10+ years.

Ok, I read what LM wrote and it doesn't say it applies only to models and employees. So, I guess looking up a canadian id in the whois is illegal because that is a non governmental agency making the request and a third party fulfilling that request.

edited in:Oh dammit I almost forgot....

You stupid little assfuck

[softball]

Ok, I read what LM wrote and it doesn't say it applies only to models and employees. So, I guess looking up a canadian id in the whois is illegal because that is a non governmental agency making the request and a third party fulfilling that request.

edited in:Oh dammit I almost forgot....

You stupid little assfuck

Now you are just ranting. And you are reverting to your foul mouth. As for stupid? I think not.

[gonzo]

This is a damn good debate.

No one here worrying about me fitting into cars, calling people snitches or worried if I have access....

While I admite DirectNic's ethical stance Im not sure how all of this will shake out.

This does bring to light a lot of the proposed 2257 changes specifically secondary producer issues.

For instance its illegal to copy a drivers license in the state of Georgia.

Then there are several stalking issues that stem from this if you have to give up the models ID to any secondary producer.

Im not certain where DirectNic is going with all of this. Its certainly an issue that all need to stay informed of.

[Peaches]

Bottom line. If DirectNIC were to request the same information from a Canadian company and hold their domains in lock, said Canadian company would spend more time in jail/pay more fines than if they could somehow be extradited to the US and IF they were guilty, be charged under any kind of 2257 offenses. Canada is NOT the only country that has laws this strict, and I'm quite sure there are correlating US state laws that cover privacy/identify theft issues.
Which is probably why DirectNic wouldn't ask for illegal information from a Canadian company.

I personally don't see how ANYONE can correlate identity theft with a picture and birthdate. I can send you a copy of my driver's license with nothing showing but my picture and birthdate and I highly doubt you'd be able to steal my identity - or even know my real name. ;)

[softball]

This is a damn good debate.

No one here worrying about me fitting into cars, calling people snitches or worried if I have access....

While I admite DirectNic's ethical stance Im not sure how all of this will shake out.

This does bring to light a lot of the proposed 2257 changes specifically secondary producer issues.

For instance its illegal to copy a drivers license in the state of Georgia.

Then there are several stalking issues that stem from this if you have to give up the models ID to any secondary producer.

Im not certain where DirectNic is going with all of this. Its certainly an issue that all need to stay informed of.

I really think they are trying to move out of the adult business and make a clean break.

[LadyMischief]

So, the whois databases aren't allowed to list canadian names and addresses?

Read what I wrote again then perhaps revisit this statement. I made it pretty clear.

[Peaches]

For instance its illegal to copy a drivers license in the state of Georgia.
Since when? When I bought property with cash they copied my license and when I bought my house and later refinanced my house they copied my license - done by attorneys whom I'm pretty sure know the laws.

[LadyMischief]

So, the canadian privacy laws only apply to models and employees?

I am trying to understand here great constitutional master.

No, they apply to any person who has a valid and legal government-issued ID. Any Joe off the street is entitled to the same rights under the privacy laws, and NOBODY aside from a government agent, a person who has been allowed the ID under a signed release from the ID holder for that person to have it, or the ID holder handing it out themselves to that person, can ID be sent, distributed or shared in any way legally. Period.

[gonzo]

Since when? When I bought property with cash they copied my license and when I bought my house and later refinanced my house they copied my license - done by attorneys whom I'm pretty sure know the laws.
Look it up. I guarantee you it is the case.

[Peaches]

Look it up. I guarantee you it is the case.
You made the statement - YOU look it up. I have a puppy chewing up all my furniture I have to deal with. ;)

[LadyMischief]

Real world practical example. In Canada, NOBODY except a GOVERNMENT agency can ask for your ID when you are presenting yourself to apply for a service etc, or keep it on record in any way.

A lot of Canadians are not even aware of this as PIPA is relatively new, but the laws were brought into effect when personal information from Canadians was being sent to US processing centers, and the information was ending up on the fax machines of scrapyards, etc. This law only applies to Adult because of our requirements to hold ID's. We have to make special provisions for these things in our model releases, not only to hold the ID on record, but to be able to distribute it to SPECIFIC parties (such as for exclusive content clients who act as their own custodian of records). If a Canadian fills out their registration information, for example, they are VOLUNTEERING that information FIRSTHAND, NOBODY can decide what happens to their information legally after that point without that person's permission.

[gonzo]

You made the statement - YOU look it up. I have a puppy chewing up all my furniture I have to deal with. ;)
I already know its the case.

Your the one disputing it not me.

[LadyMischief]

If on the id all that is showing is the birthdate and the picture. I cant see how that would a privacy issue. Do you guys know for sure or is it guessing ?

That would be considered personal information (especially if it is an actual scan or copy of the ID, BIG NONO) and would be illegal under PIPA regulations in Canada, and multiple international and even state regulations in the US.

[Peaches]

Well, a quick Google shows Kennesaw University asking for a copy of your Georgia driver's license. So far, that's a state university and 4 lawyers who are saying it's OK.

Feel free to show otherwise :)

Edited to add - it seems all the state colleges require a copy of your Georgia Driver's license. Maybe you need to let them know that's illegal. Need the names and numbers of my attorneys too? :)

[LadyMischief]

Ok, I read what LM wrote and it doesn't say it applies only to models and employees. So, I guess looking up a canadian id in the whois is illegal because that is a non governmental agency making the request and a third party fulfilling that request.

edited in:Oh dammit I almost forgot....

You stupid little assfuck

Is whois information a person's ID? Cool, I finally have a driver's license then? :P

[softball]

Is whois information a person's ID? Cool, I finally have a driver's license then? :P

My thoughts exactly.

[LadyMischief]

Well, a quick Google shows Kennesaw University asking for a copy of your Georgia driver's license. So far, that's a state university and 4 lawyers who are saying it's OK.

Feel free to show otherwise :)

The laws will differ state-to-state, and if I'm not wrong, schools are by extension government (or at least partially government-funded) agencies who are ruled and regulated by government agencies.

[Peaches]

The laws will differ state-to-state, and if I'm not wrong, schools are by extension government (or at least partially government-funded) agencies who are ruled and regulated by government agencies.
True, but then why are my attorneys getting it too? Doncha think at least ONE of the 4 would know the state law?? :okthumb: 2 were in the last 2 months, BTW. The other two were 5 and 4 years ago.

[LadyMischief]

How about we remove all doubt and I just post from the Act itself:

Personal information

Personal information includes any factual or subjective information, recorded or not, about an identifiable individual. This includes information in any form, such as:

* age, name, ID numbers, income, ethnic origin, or blood type;
* opinions, evaluations, comments, social status, or disciplinary actions; and
* employee files, credit records, loan records, medical records, existence of a dispute between a consumer and a merchant, intentions (for example, to acquire goods or services, or change jobs)

Personal information does not include the name, title or business address or telephone number of an employee of an organization.

How about the definition of consent with regards to that personal information:
Consent

Voluntary agreement with what is being done or proposed. Consent can be either express or implied. Express consent is given explicitly, either orally or in writing. Express consent is unequivocal and does not require any inference on the part of the organization seeking consent. Implied consent arises where consent may reasonably be inferred from the action or inaction of the individual.

Disclosure

Making personal information available to others outside the organization
Use

Refers to the treatment and handling of personal information within an organization.

That should clear up the "definitions" for you a little.

[LadyMischief]

Here are some of the obligations under PIPA for businesses and organization who collect personal information:

Your responsibilities

* Comply with all 10 of the principles of Schedule 1.
* Appoint an individual (or individuals) to be responsible for your organization's compliance.
* Protect all personal information held by your organization or transferred to a third party for processing.
* Develop and implement personal information policies and practices.

How to fulfil these responsibilities

* Give your designated privacy official senior management support and the authority to intervene on privacy issues relating to any of your organization's operations.
* Communicate the name or title of this individual internally and externally (e.g. on Web sites and in publications).
* Analyze all personal information handling practices including ongoing activities and new initiatives, using the following checklist to ensure that they meet fair information practices:
o What personal information do we collect?
o Why do we collect it?
o How do we collect it?
o What do we use it for?
o Where do we keep it?
o How is it secured?
o Who has access to or uses it?
o To whom is it disclosed?
o When is it disposed of?
* Develop and implement policies and procedures to protect personal information:
o define the purposes of its collection
o obtain consent
o limit its collection, use and disclosure
o ensure information is correct, complete and current
o ensure adequate security measures
o develop or update a retention and destruction timetable
o process access requests
o respond to inquiries and complaints
* Include a privacy protection clause in contracts to guarantee that the third party provides the same level of protection as your organization does.
* Inform and train staff on privacy policies and procedures.
* Make information available explaining these policies and procedures to customers (e.g. in brochures and on Web sites).

When transferring personal information to third parties, ensure that they:

* Name a person to handle all privacy aspects of the contract.
* Limit use of the personal information to the purposes specified to fulfil the contract.
* Limit disclosure of the information to what is authorized by your organization or required by law.
* Refer any people looking for access to their personal information to your organization.
* Return or dispose of the transferred information upon completion of the contract.
* Use appropriate security measures to protect the personal information.
* Allow your organization to audit the third party's compliance with the contract as necessary.

[LadyMischief]

Oh and yet MORE responsibility and liability with regards to personal information:
Your responsibilities

* Before or when any personal information is collected, identify why it is needed and how it will be used.
* Document why the information is collected.
* Inform the individual from whom the information is collected why it is needed.
* Identify any new purpose for the information and obtain the individual's consent before using it.

How to fulfil these responsibilities

* Review your personal information holdings to ensure they are all required for a specific purpose.
* Notify the individual, either orally or in writing, of these purposes.
* Record all identified purposes and obtained consents for easy reference in case an individual requests an account of such information.
* Ensure that these purposes are limited to what a reasonable person would expect under the circumstances.

[LadyMischief]

Which is probably why DirectNic wouldn't ask for illegal information from a Canadian company.

I personally don't see how ANYONE can correlate identity theft with a picture and birthdate. I can send you a copy of my driver's license with nothing showing but my picture and birthdate and I highly doubt you'd be able to steal my identity - or even know my real name. ;)

So if DirectNIC were to sieze the domains of someone under privacy laws, that person would then just be screwed, right? They could be basically blackmailed with no way out. Sounds like a great precident to set.

[Hammer]

If on the id all that is showing is the birthdate and the picture. I cant see how that would a privacy issue. Do you guys know for sure or is it guessing ?
I have purchased plenty of content that came with the model's ID intact, but your question about 'redacted' IDs was answered back when the FSC first filed the injunction, because that was one of their earliest vitories. Recacted IDs (address blacked out) are legal as long as the DOB and photo are visible and I don't see any privacy issue in that case.

[LadyMischief]

True, but then why are my attorneys getting it too? Doncha think at least ONE of the 4 would know the state law?? :okthumb: 2 were in the last 2 months, BTW. The other two were 5 and 4 years ago.

In case you didn't notice, I was posting predominantly about Canada, and other countries. Most states have some form of privacy laws, I don't know the extent of them and never claimed to :P

[LadyMischief]

I have purchased plenty of content that came with the model's ID intact, but your question about 'redacted' IDs was answered back when the FSC first filed the injunction, because that was one of their earliest vitories. Recacted IDs (address blacked out) are legal as long as the DOB and photo are visible and I don't see any privacy issue in that case.

In Canada, that would be considered personal information, especially if it's offered in conjunction with the photo of the person.

[softball]

I have purchased plenty of content that came with the model's ID intact, but your question about 'redacted' IDs was answered back when the FSC first filed the injunction, because that was one of their earliest vitories. Recacted IDs (address blacked out) are legal as long as the DOB and photo are visible and I don't see any privacy issue in that case.

That would be an American decision. It would not effect us.

[Peaches]

In case you didn't notice, I was posting predominantly about Canada, and other countries. Most states have some form of privacy laws, I don't know the extent of them and never claimed to :P
I know - Gonzo and I were discussing Georgia law ;)

[Hammer]

In this case, DN is acting as the judge and jury and presuming guilt. Even if Spike can't or refuses to produce the 2257 documents, that doesn't prove that the content on his site is illegal.

[LadyMischief]

I know - Gonzo and I were discussing Georgia law ;)

The privacy laws will differ from state-to-state though. Something worth noting.

[Peaches]

In Canada, that would be considered personal information, especially if it's offered in conjunction with the photo of the person.
OK, I missed it in all that typage - where does it mention DOBs or photos being personal information?

[Hammer]

In Canada, that would be considered personal information, especially if it's offered in conjunction with the photo of the person.
That's why I don't buy any content from Canadian producers. ;)

[sarettah]

We have to make special provisions for these things in our model releases, not only to hold the ID on record, but to be able to distribute it to SPECIFIC parties (such as for exclusive content clients who act as their own custodian of records). If a Canadian fills out their registration information, for example, they are VOLUNTEERING that information FIRSTHAND, NOBODY can decide what happens to their information legally after that point without that person's permission.

So, they are giving up the right to have their information remain totally private by waiving he right in a contract with you, right?

[LadyMischief]

In this case, DN is acting as the judge and jury and presuming guilt. Even if Spike can't or refuses to produce the 2257 documents, that doesn't prove that the content on his site is illegal.

I never said Spike or HG... I'm referring to CANADIANS. Homegrown has their docs well in order, but I do hear what you're saying. It's the principle of the thing that is my main point of argue. I hate CP, I have two young daughters, and I have reported more than my fair share of sites to ASCAP and the FBI over the years. It's the principle of the thing, and the fact the domains were pulled before this guy was given a chance to produce ANYTHING. What will that mean for the future?

[Peaches]

The privacy laws will differ from state-to-state though. Something worth noting.
Agreed, but again, Gonzo and I were discussing GEORGIA laws. That's all. Georgia. The state. Here in the US. He says it's illegal to copy a driver's license here, I say it isn't. Here. In GEORGIA. ;)

[LadyMischief]

Not to mention multiple sponsors he was promoting have stepped up and offered to hand over docs to help him out. It's their content that is the cause of scrutiny and issue, I'm honestly surprised this hasn't turned into a witchhunt for teen sponsors.

[sarettah]

That would be considered personal information (especially if it is an actual scan or copy of the ID, BIG NONO) and would be illegal under PIPA regulations in Canada, and multiple international and even state regulations in the US.

Unless of course the person has given permission in a release or contract, right?

Has anyone asked what is in the particular model releases associated with the content in question? So, for all any of us know, it might be perfectly legal to release the info to DN.

[LadyMischief]

So, they are giving up the right to have their information remain totally private by waiving he right in a contract with you, right?

Absolutely not.. THe releases are VERY specific in their purposes as per the law. If I want to use the ID for a purpose other than is specified there, I have to get express written permission from the model.

[sarettah]

Is whois information a person's ID? Cool, I finally have a driver's license then? :P

Name address city state zipcode and phone number. Seems pretty personal to me.

[LadyMischief]

Unless of course the person has given permission in a release or contract, right?

Has anyone asked what is in the particular model releases associated with the content in question? So, for all any of us know, it might be perfectly legal to release the info to DN.


Releases, ID, all personal information right down to birthdate is covered under the law as it stands. You can try to muddy the waters with your speculation, but I think what I put there is pretty clear. I could also hunt up the entire contents of the seminar that our legal expert put together. That might help clear up a few more of your misconceptions if you like :)

[LadyMischief]

Name address city state zipcode and phone number. Seems pretty personal to me.

And also placed in the system by the FIRST PARTY to suit a purpose. They volunteer their information to be public and accessible. Not so with data collected for private purposes and with releases involved.

[sarettah]

Absolutely not.. THe releases are VERY specific in their purposes as per the law. If I want to use the ID for a purpose other than is specified there, I have to get express written permission from the model.

Did you miss the "totally" in there? They have given up some of their rights by allowing you to pass the info to third parties in certain circumtances if you have that in your release, right?

[gonzo]

Not to mention multiple sponsors he was promoting have stepped up and offered to hand over docs to help him out. It's their content that is the cause of scrutiny and issue, I'm honestly surprised this hasn't turned into a witchhunt for teen sponsors.

What are the name of the sponsors in question?

[Hammer]

I never said Spike or HG... I'm referring to CANADIANS.
I didn't say you did and I'm not getting involved in the Canadian debate, I'm simply talking about what DN is doing.

[sarettah]

You can try to muddy the waters with your speculation

Oh, I see how this works. The anti DN force is allowed to speculate all they want and assume that directnic did this out of the blue, on their own with no govenement inquiry starting he whole thing off, assume that none of the sponsors have privacy right clauses in their releases and assume that because Slick used sponsor content on a site that HE is PERSNALLY responsible for that the content was totally legal.

But if I make one speculation I am muddyng the waters?

You want in on the bet thread LM ?

[Peaches]

Looks like Experian can also ask for and receive a copy of your Georgia's driver's license.

OK, I've found at least THREE instances where it's legal to make a copy of a Georgia driver's license.

Batter up, Gonzo :)

[Hammer]

Ah, I see the confusion. I said Spike but misspoke and meant to say Slick.

[LadyMischief]

Oh, I see how this works. The anti DN force is allowed to speculate all they want and assume that directnic did this out of the blue, on their own with no govenement inquiry starting he whole thing off, assume that none of the sponsors have privacy right clauses in their releases and assume that because Slick used sponsor content on a site that HE is PERSNALLY responsible for that the content was totally legal.

But if I make one speculation I am muddyng the waters?

You want in on the bet thread LM ?

I'm not ANTI-Directnic.. I just don't feel that a registrar has the right to demand id's from someone. I do believe htey have the right to report him, to shut him down, to give him the opportunity to respond. But the way this entire thing was handled was very much a jumping of the gun in my PERSONAL opinion, and the results of this could be far-reaching. Don't tell me that if DirectNIC doesn't pull this off unscathed, other registrars won't be doing the same kinds of things, and who knows for what reasons? Maybe DirectNIC DOES have a good reason, but if so they better produce it damned quick, or it's going to be the beginning of a disturbing trend that could threaten ALL adult business.

[gonzo]

Looks like Experian can also ask for and receive a copy of your Georgia's driver's license.

OK, I've found at least THREE instances where it's legal to make a copy of a Georgia driver's license.

Batter up, Gonzo :)

Ill look when Im done with work.

[sudden]

Ok lets talk about the business model of using a bogus virus scan that tells you that your machine is infected and even pops out the CD tray to encourage the surfer to get the "cure" which is nothing more than a trojan for adware.

Go ahead and talk about it. Doesn't make it the case. Putting emphasis on something, or elevating the risk more than other businesses and 'bogus' is not the same thing. And buying advertising from an ad network is not the same thing as owning the ad network. Though I understand the confusion, seeing as you have been stuck on the Lars deal for months now and still seem to think he's a partner in Zango.

Get your facts straight. Oh and maybe you should try some of the shit you keep bitching about so as to stop making a lousy $4k/mo :D I'm sure you'd be less interested in the business of others and their methods if you were at a decent income, like $40k/mo...

[sarettah]

I'm not ANTI-Directnic.. I just don't feel that a registrar has the right to demand id's from someone. I do believe htey have the right to report him, to shut him down, to give him the opportunity to respond. But the way this entire thing was handled was very much a jumping of the gun in my PERSONAL opinion, and the results of this could be far-reaching. Don't tell me that if DirectNIC doesn't pull this off unscathed, other registrars won't be doing the same kinds of things, and who knows for what reasons? Maybe DirectNIC DOES have a good reason, but if so they better produce it damned quick, or it's going to be the beginning of a disturbing trend that could threaten ALL adult business.

I disagree only on the point that they don't have the right to do it. When the contract was signed, the right was given. Period. If you (universal you there) had a problem with the contract, either don't agree to it or take a case to court to prove the contract unenforceable thereby forcing the registrar to change the contract. A third option would be after the fact getting an injunction stopping the contact from being enforced until a judge can rule on the contracts legality.

None of these were done which in my mind says that the contract is considered enforceable by Slick's lawyer and makes all the discussion about whether DN has the right or not moot.

[gonzo]

Go ahead and talk about it. Doesn't make it the case. Putting emphasis on something, or elevating the risk more than other businesses and 'bogus' is not the same thing. And buying advertising from an ad network is not the same thing as owning the ad network. Though I understand the confusion, seeing as you have been stuck on the Lars deal for months now and still seem to think he's a partner in Zango.

Get your facts straight. Oh and maybe you should try some of the shit you keep bitching about so as to stop making a lousy $4k/mo :D I'm sure you'd be less interested in the business of others and their methods if you were at a decent income, like $40k/mo...

So you think is a good business model to trick a surfer with a bogus virus scan and pop out the cd tray .... load the "fix" on the machine.. which is nothing more than a trojan for adware?

[Peaches]

Ill look when Im done with work.
Cool - I'll get my paperwork ready to sue my lawyers with :)

[gonzo]

Cool - I'll get my paperwork ready to sue my lawyers with :)
Get a lot of paper..

Every Govt agency I know of photocopies it as well.

[Peaches]

Get a lot of paper..

Every Govt agency I know of photocopies it as well.
So the government, my attorneys and the credit bureaus are all breaking the law? Excellent. Class action suit.

[TheEnforcer]

So the government, my attorneys and the credit bureaus are all breaking the law? Excellent. Class action suit.


Laws on the books are very often outright ignored for practical purposes.

[tony404]

I'm not ANTI-Directnic.. I just don't feel that a registrar has the right to demand id's from someone. I do believe htey have the right to report him, to shut him down, to give him the opportunity to respond. But the way this entire thing was handled was very much a jumping of the gun in my PERSONAL opinion, and the results of this could be far-reaching. Don't tell me that if DirectNIC doesn't pull this off unscathed, other registrars won't be doing the same kinds of things, and who knows for what reasons? Maybe DirectNIC DOES have a good reason, but if so they better produce it damned quick, or it's going to be the beginning of a disturbing trend that could threaten ALL adult business.

No waiting for the government to really start regulating us , could really threaten us. Im sorry but everything isnt ok , we as a industry have to say somethings cross the line or we will be very fucked.

[Peaches]

Laws on the books are very often outright ignored for practical purposes.
Hey, I have a closing in a couple of weeks - I just want to be able to walk in there and say "Look - no you may NOT have a copy of my driver's license" :)

(yeah, I'll give it to them anyway because they're friends, but it will be fun if Gonzo's right ;) )

[gonzo]

Hey, I have a closing in a couple of weeks - I just want to be able to walk in there and say "Look - no you may NOT have a copy of my driver's license" :)

(yeah, I'll give it to them anyway because they're friends, but it will be fun if Gonzo's right ;) )
I know your keeping count over there.

How many times in the past have I steered you wrong?

Eventaully the truth comes out and you find yourself agreeing with me.

If they have changed the law since I was a cop I will let you know that too.

[sudden]

So you think is a good business model to trick a surfer with a bogus virus scan and pop out the cd tray .... load the "fix" on the machine.. which is nothing more than a trojan for adware?

Didn't say I did. Nor do I know who you're referring to when you mention a bogus virus scan. My point was you may want to try some ideas that you haven't tried as you're obviously not doing too well with what you're doing right now, and you seem very bitter about it complaining about what everyone else (who is doing well) is doing wrong.

And asking other's on how to do shady shit (but getting no help) doesn't count as far as trying ideas go.

[gonzo]

Didn't say I did. Nor do I know who you're referring to when you mention a bogus virus scan. My point was you may want to try some ideas that you haven't tried as you're obviously not doing too well with what you're doing right now, and you seem very bitter about it complaining about what everyone else (who is doing well) is doing wrong.

And asking other's on how to do shady shit (but getting no help) doesn't count as far as trying ideas go.

So you dont work for or own innovativemarketing?

[AnotherGrogan]

Hello folks

I'm not in the Adult Website business (though I've often thought about having an adult site)

I'm a user who has been going to reallyeighteen.com (and sites like it) periodically for a few years roughly and I'd like to share my perspective on this.

The problem as I perceive it is that the site doesn't really host the content, the thumbnails are redirects that pass control over to other sites and each time you click them you may end up somewhere else. The links don't always lead to the pictures shown in the thumbnails and once you get to another gallery of similar redirects you just don't know where you are going to end up if you click those links. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. Grannies, kiddies, animal sex... nothing to do with the thumbnail images.

Indeed, a few times I've ended up at galleries showing pictures of what are obviously children. I haven't worried that much about it because it was very infrequent and I just closed that particular browser tab if I saw anything like that, realizing it's not really their fault once control has been passed on to another site.

Yesterday, I noticed that there was no dns for reallyeighteen. At the time I thought it was just a temporary glitch, or they were moving or something. I know how to use whois and get the authoritative nameserver and then query that to get the IP. So I did that, and set up a hosts file entry for the site so the virtual hostname would work. It seemed to be business as usual, but I hadn't been there in a few weeks.

Today, when I checked and the problem still wasn't solved I started to suspect that something like this had occurred and started to search for answers. Google has de-listed them from their databases, citing a request from chillingeffects.org. So the only info I found was from a few (questionable) spyware removal sites with instructions for cookie removal (I use Linux so I don't give a shit about Windows malware, and I always delete cookies and browsing data after visiting adult sites so that's no problem either)

A Yahoo search led me to this discussion here and now I understand what's going on. Looking again at the registrar info, I now see it's in "Registrar-hold" status (didn't read the info that closely yesterday)

From my perspective, I'll not be going back to reallyeighteen again, because I simply don't want to be associated with the stigma of "kiddie porn". I like pictures of nice young ladies in the 18-20 age range (I'm not even especially fond of "hard core"), but I'm not exposing myself to some potential overzealous and righteous ISP employee for what I might accidently land on. It really got me thinking about that. Whether charges hold up in court or not, once you've been accused of anything to do with child porn you're finished.

It's unfortunate, and I agree that this should not be the job of a domain registrar. Not only that, how the Hell can they provide ID for the models when it's not even them who has "hired" them? Maybe I'm not fully understanding how all of this works, but it seems to me that perhaps slick networks just has to be more discriminating in their afiliations. Shutting them down is inappropriate. Cripes... drop their domains and let them transfer them or re-register elsewhere if they don't approve of the content. That's where the registrar's responsibility should end. Similar for Web hosts. Drop the customer if you don't approve, but don't fuck with them.

I'm sure I'm not alone in the way I think, so this has probably really hurt them. They'll not be able to use those domain names again... they'll have to start anew. This whole thing sickens me and that domain registrar can burn in Hell. I'll certainly never use or recommend them.

Again, I do not want to encounter child porn, but this is way over the top.

[gonzo]

Anyone here doesnt think this is a huge issue now?

[LadyMischief]

Anyone here doesnt think this is a huge issue now?

I thought so the second I saw the first post on GFY. Our lawyers are reviewing everything (on the US side). As far as the Canadian side I already know where we stand (as I am currently a privacy comissioner for our former content company, we still have to hold the records even if we are not currently conducting business).

[softball]

This is huge. Has there been any rebuttal from Directnic?

[Peaches]

Anyone here doesnt think this is a huge issue now?
I think that's the fakest "surfer letter" I've ever seen.

[Peaches]

I know your keeping count over there.

How many times in the past have I steered you wrong?

Eventaully the truth comes out and you find yourself agreeing with me.

If they have changed the law since I was a cop I will let you know that too.
Gonzo, you've been wrong plenty of times ;)

And when were you a cop? What town/county? It had to have been at least 10+ years ago, so yeah, I suspect a few laws have changed, lol.

[Jace]

Hello folks

I'm not in the Adult Website business (though I've often thought about having an adult site)

I'm a user who has been going to reallyeighteen.com (and sites like it) periodically for a few years roughly and I'd like to share my perspective on this.

The problem as I perceive it is that the site doesn't really host the content, the thumbnails are redirects that pass control over to other sites and each time you click them you may end up somewhere else. The links don't always lead to the pictures shown in the thumbnails and once you get to another gallery of similar redirects you just don't know where you are going to end up if you click those links. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. Grannies, kiddies, animal sex... nothing to do with the thumbnail images.

Indeed, a few times I've ended up at galleries showing pictures of what are obviously children. I haven't worried that much about it because it was very infrequent and I just closed that particular browser tab if I saw anything like that, realizing it's not really their fault once control has been passed on to another site.

Yesterday, I noticed that there was no dns for reallyeighteen. At the time I thought it was just a temporary glitch, or they were moving or something. I know how to use whois and get the authoritative nameserver and then query that to get the IP. So I did that, and set up a hosts file entry for the site so the virtual hostname would work. It seemed to be business as usual, but I hadn't been there in a few weeks.

Today, when I checked and the problem still wasn't solved I started to suspect that something like this had occurred and started to search for answers. Google has de-listed them from their databases, citing a request from chillingeffects.org. So the only info I found was from a few (questionable) spyware removal sites with instructions for cookie removal (I use Linux so I don't give a shit about Windows malware, and I always delete cookies and browsing data after visiting adult sites so that's no problem either)

A Yahoo search led me to this discussion here and now I understand what's going on. Looking again at the registrar info, I now see it's in "Registrar-hold" status (didn't read the info that closely yesterday)

From my perspective, I'll not be going back to reallyeighteen again, because I simply don't want to be associated with the stigma of "kiddie porn". I like pictures of nice young ladies in the 18-20 age range (I'm not even especially fond of "hard core"), but I'm not exposing myself to some potential overzealous and righteous ISP employee for what I might accidently land on. It really got me thinking about that. Whether charges hold up in court or not, once you've been accused of anything to do with child porn you're finished.

It's unfortunate, and I agree that this should not be the job of a domain registrar. Not only that, how the Hell can they provide ID for the models when it's not even them who has "hired" them? Maybe I'm not fully understanding how all of this works, but it seems to me that perhaps slick networks just has to be more discriminating in their afiliations. Shutting them down is inappropriate. Cripes... drop their domains and let them transfer them or re-register elsewhere if they don't approve of the content. That's where the registrar's responsibility should end. Similar for Web hosts. Drop the customer if you don't approve, but don't fuck with them.

I'm sure I'm not alone in the way I think, so this has probably really hurt them. They'll not be able to use those domain names again... they'll have to start anew. This whole thing sickens me and that domain registrar can burn in Hell. I'll certainly never use or recommend them.

Again, I do not want to encounter child porn, but this is way over the top.

after reading this a few times I have to agree it looks pretty fake

then again, the one thing I hate about the internet comes into play, you never fucking know anymore

[softball]

The veracity of that letter is way suspicious.

[AnotherGrogan]

Folks, I'm not sure how I could prove it, but I'm a very real person and this was really bothering me today when I came across this discussion. I'm not even sure what you would be implying when suspecting my post as being fake. You think someone put me up to this to skew some point of discussion in this forum?

I've stated my opinion (and it's factual about the thumbnail links on the reallyeighteen site being redirects... rather obvious when I click them)

My screen name is Grogan, I've used it for around 11 years on computer help Web sites and IRC servers. I use it with honour and integrity, just as if it were my real name. Someone here was already registered as Grogan. I do not give real names or other personal info. If an administrator of this forum wishes to contact me, they may do so using the email address in my profile and I will answer any questions they may have about me. Yes, that's really me in the picture I've just uploaded as an avatar.

When I register to make a post on a forum, I do stick around a bit for follow up discussion. I've now read some other threads here too.

[sarettah]

I've stated my opinion (and it's factual about the thumbnail links on the reallyeighteen site being redirects... rather obvious when I click them)


That is still no excuse for what I saw on the various sites in question and I never went past the thumbs.

Each and every webmaster has the responsibility of running their sites in an honest, ethical method and also need to be constantly policing themselves. The only possible excuse for not being in full control of the content of your site and the links from your sites would be getting hacked and in that case it should be a very temporary thing. It is also every webmasters responsibility to make sure their sites do not get hacked by keeping adequate security in place.

[softball]

That is still no excuse for what I saw on the various sites in question and I never went past the thumbs.

Each and every webmaster has the responsibility of running their sites in an honest, ethical method and also need to be constantly policing themselves. The only possible excuse for not being in full control of the content of your site and the links from your sites would be getting hacked and in that case it should be a very temporary thing. It is also every webmasters responsibility to make sure their sites do not get hacked by keeping adequate security in place.

For once we actually agree on something.

[AnotherGrogan]

Each and every webmaster has the responsibility of running their sites in an honest, ethical method and also need to be constantly policing themselves. The only possible excuse for not being in full control of the content of your site and the links from your sites would be getting hacked and in that case it should be a very temporary thing. It is also every webmasters responsibility to make sure their sites do not get hacked by keeping adequate security in place.

As I said, perhaps he needs to do just that (re-evaluate his affiliates). What DirectNIC has done is overstepping their bounds. My point about it being redirects is, how would it be possible to submit "ID" for the models in the links that are just redirects?

In my time at that site (reallyeighteen), I saw nothing in the thumbnails that made me think it might lead to "cp". Young looking college age girls are not kiddie porn either.

[sarettah]

As I said, perhaps he needs to do just that (re-evaluate his affiliates). What DirectNIC has done is overstepping their bounds. My point about it being redirects is, how would it be possible to submit "ID" for the models in the links that are just redirects?

In my time at that site (reallyeighteen), I saw nothing in the thumbnails that made me think it might lead to "cp". Young looking college age girls are not kiddie porn either.


Reallyeighteen was not the one causing the trouble from what I saw. Directnic basically siezed his entire account so everything he had registered with them was hit.

[AnotherGrogan]

Ok, sorry for having tunnel vision there. Reallyeighteen is the site that concerned me because it's one that I was using. I do also recall landing on amateurcurves through the redirects, but didn't realize they were the same people. I don't recall seeing anything bad there either.

I really hadn't given it much thought until today.

[LadyMischief]

As I said, perhaps he needs to do just that (re-evaluate his affiliates). What DirectNIC has done is overstepping their bounds. My point about it being redirects is, how would it be possible to submit "ID" for the models in the links that are just redirects?

In my time at that site (reallyeighteen), I saw nothing in the thumbnails that made me think it might lead to "cp". Young looking college age girls are not kiddie porn either.

I think you're referring to what they call in TGP as a SKIM. There's a difference between when you click a thumb and the skim sends you to a trade (in effect sending you to another site), or when it sends you to a gallery listing. A gallery listing oftentimes will have a link at the bottom with a "click here for 2257 information". Those are the listings that are "resident" to the tgp, as they are static links. THe redirected links are other people's sites, essentially.

[gonzo]

Folks, I'm not sure how I could prove it, but I'm a very real person and this was really bothering me today when I came across this discussion. I'm not even sure what you would be implying when suspecting my post as being fake. You think someone put me up to this to skew some point of discussion in this forum?

I've stated my opinion (and it's factual about the thumbnail links on the reallyeighteen site being redirects... rather obvious when I click them)

My screen name is Grogan, I've used it for around 11 years on computer help Web sites and IRC servers. I use it with honour and integrity, just as if it were my real name. Someone here was already registered as Grogan. I do not give real names or other personal info. If an administrator of this forum wishes to contact me, they may do so using the email address in my profile and I will answer any questions they may have about me. Yes, that's really me in the picture I've just uploaded as an avatar.

When I register to make a post on a forum, I do stick around a bit for follow up discussion. I've now read some other threads here too.

Ive looked at your IP and the pool it comes thru.

Thats good enough for me.

I think this is a first but.... Welcome to Oprano.

[LadyMischief]

Ive looked at your IP and the pool it comes thru.

Thats good enough for me.

I think this is a first but.... Welcome to Oprano.

No kidding :) Don't often see this kind of crossover, but this fellow is a bright sort to have followed things this far. Welcome AnotherGrogan :)

[AnotherGrogan]

I think you're referring to what they call in TGP as a SKIM. There's a difference between when you click a thumb and the skim sends you to a trade (in effect sending you to another site), or when it sends you to a gallery listing. A gallery listing oftentimes will have a link at the bottom with a "click here for 2257 information". Those are the listings that are "resident" to the tgp, as they are static links. THe redirected links are other people's sites, essentially.

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't know the terminology, but yes that's what I'm describing. Most thumbnail links on tgp sites do seem to lead to other domains, but I never really thought about which ones are resident. I just thought of those tgp sites as portals to affiliate and advertiser sites.

I've learned a few things by reading some threads here today and following some links, including a bit about how many of these TGP sites operate. I didn't realize the degree of automation in updating the pages.

I've seen "2257" info before, but it always seemed to be more of a disclaimer to me. "These models were over the age of 18 when the pics were taken, and records are held by those who published the pics" or whatever it says. I never paid a lot of attention to it as I don't live in the US.

So then, a domain registrar might overstep their bounds in more ways than one. Namely, exerting self granted authority where laws like this have no jurisdiction. For example, someone might have no such requirement in another country to be able to produce such records (or as mentioned, it might even be prohibited by law to disclose such info), yet a righteous domain registrar can lock up the domains and demand that they produce this? Registrars should be just that... registrars.

Edit: I should think that sort of policing is more appropriate for a hosting provider, to object to content and take sites offline. Domain registrars should provide the administrative service of registering domains, impartially.

-----------------------------------------------

Also, thanks for the welcome Gonzo and LadyMischief. This looks like a pretty cool place :-)

[Hell Puppy]

Internet policing ? its called a industry regulating itself or the government starts regulating for you. Imagine if everyone policed cp on line instead of waiting for the police. If you got proof everyone is of age ,you really got nothing to worry about.There would be no safe place for cp to happen in the internet world. oh I forgot in the online world its everyone's god given right to do whatever the fuck they want until they are arrested.
Then they cry why do they pick on us. lol

This isn't industry regulation though. This is one company appointing itself as having the authority to shutdown another company's business based upon regulations that have never even been validated in a court of law by a judge. I think most of the "industry" in fact still feels that 2257 as written is unconstitutional in fact.

Now I'm not defending anyone who wants to take pics of very young looking girls without covering their ass and making sure they're 18 and having ample docs to back it up. But in this case, I'm thinking more and more based on information available that Directnic overstepped their bounds. I'd be ok with it if they'd just opted not to do business with the guy and bounced him. That's what I do with people whose practices I do not like, I simply dont do business with them.

But they are way out on a limb here by locking the domain where it cant be moved if that is indeed what is happening. I keep thinking there has to be more to this than meets the eye as it doesn't make sense for Directnic to make a move this harsh.

My docs are clean, but I have to admit that I'd be BEYOND PISSED if a registrar put me on the spot like that. I'm their customer and they want to scrutinize my business? It's like having your landlord want to come in and make sure you have all of the required DOL information posted on your bulletin board in the breakroom. That's not their role.

Hosts can request docs when DMCA is put into play. And 2257 says Uncle Sam can knock on your door and inspect your records. Beyond that, vendors have no entitlement to audit a damned thing.

[Hell Puppy]

For instance its illegal to copy a drivers license in the state of Georgia.



Copy it without permission? Yeah, that would likely be covered under the Open Records Act as DMV records are specifically excluded in the state of Georgia.

But if you're saying it's illegal to copy it if someone voluntarily supplies it to you, then I call bullshit unless you can find the statute. If it's true, it's violated left and right by everyone including the state.

Everyone from the DOL on down asks you to supply a "government issued photo id" which they copy for their records as proof they checked it. They dont say it HAS to be drivers license, but that is typically the ONLY government issued photo id most people carry with them.

Because there is protected personal information on a driver's license, privacy laws would also dictate how that copy would be stored, who can access it, etc.

But as far as I know if I hand you my driver's license for you to copy, there's nothing illegal.

Now a tip for anyone who ever wants to take issue with people who ask for it, you can get a state provided "photo identification card" that is totally separate from your driver's license. In Georgia, you get it at the DMV, same basic process as driver's license (need to provide birth certificate, etc) you just dont have to take the driver's test.

[softball]

I have a bit of an issue with Directnic's silence. They seem to be dealing with this the same way they did when accused of kiting. They ignored it. Maybe it is a good business strategy, but in the long run, I don't think it is effective. Once maybe, but twice or more is just ducking. Or, like I said earlier, are they trying to bail on adult and come out fighting in the straight market.

[Hell Puppy]

I have a bit of an issue with Directnic's silence. They seem to be dealing with this the same way they did when accused of kiting. They ignored it. Maybe it is a good business strategy, but in the long run, I don't think it is effective. Once maybe, but twice or more is just ducking. Or, like I said earlier, are they trying to bail on adult and come out fighting in the straight market.

Again signs point to there being something going on we do not know.

Unless their domain portfolio is balanced radically different from how I think it is, dumping adult and going after the likes of GoDaddy, etc for mainstream marketshare doesn't seem too bright. Only way that would make sense would be if they have a potential mainstream buyer on the hook who is asking them to clean things up.

Let's say a public company was looking to buy them, only a matter of time before competitors clue in the media and it's leaked that Directnic is home to A LOT of porn domains. This makes public company look bad and brings questions from shareholders and media that they do not want. Now paint the same scenario but arm your PR team with the actions Directnic is doing right now.

Kinda makes you go hmmmmmm.....

[AnotherGrogan]

I found the thread at "GFY" (heheh, nice acronym) and read through most of it. Well I had to skip some of the pages in the middle because it's just too many and too much bickering. Time for bed, delirium setting in. There's lots I hadn't considered, but I haven't really changed my opinion.

I see my post got quoted and scrutinized there as well. I'm not going to register there, but I can assure you that no, adult sites have nothing to do with my business. I'm a "surfer" in terms of not being an adult site operator but I'm a surfer that knows a thing or ten about how the Internet works. Some of us techies like to look at galleries too. Mr. Presumptuous over there is welcome to a nice steaming cup of "Shut the Heck Up". Tasty stuff. I know :)

[LadyMischief]

Ok, I think I do need to make a statement about TGP, since I know the vast majority of people here have limited experience with the medium, and probably know even less about running one/maintaining trades.


Anyone who's ever run a tgp knows that it's a full time job. If you run a NETWORK of them, even moreso. Some of these tgps have HUNDREDS of trades, it's the way that they ensure traffic growth to their own sites. Each trade has to be hand-reviewed before it's put in, and TGP owners have to continually go BACK to these trades to make sure what's put there is NOT illegal or offensive (such as CP). Oftentimes only going to a site once you will NOT neccessarily see anything that would be offensive, and MANY times these assholes who run the tgps/networks that DO offer CP do NOT put those things into place until AFTER they establish trades with people. So let me give a scenario that might make people realize that Slick as much as his diligence would have helped, also fell victim in a way to something that happens to tgp people on a consitant basis.

Let's lay out the scenario. I'm a tgp owner looking for trades or adding trades to my site.. Someone sends me an email or contacts me looking for a trade (or perhaps even enters it into an automatic form that some scripts have for trades). I review the site and everything looks good, so I add him into my trade system (this is where the skims go, that percentage can be changed, but only within a certain median if it's going to maintain site growth). He putters in my trades for a while, I don't go back to check every day, I have 500 trades, I can't review them all daily. I have my hands full going through the 10,000+ galleries sitting in queue from chameleon submitter people and other submits. So the trade I added starts putting up CP, and suddenly my skims/trades are CP sites, even though they weren't when I added them. I wouldn't know this unless a) I went to my trades every day, b) someone reported it to me or c) one of my trades reported the problem or posted somewhere and they let me know. It's not like it's something that's in their face every second.

Not to mention the fact that most tgp scripts run some sort of thumb rotator, so two different people going to a page will NOT neccessarily see the same thumbs, and this can make it even MORE difficult to detect potential difficulties within the trades. Slick can be responsible for what is on his own network, and he can do his BEST to stay on top of his trades, but in reality, he may not ever have known that his trades had CP or "virtual" CP on them. It would have been very likely in fact that he never had a clue.

Just throwing this out there because people are very quick to hold Slick to the fire for his "affiliations" without actually realizing everything that's involved in that process. Due diligence would have helped him a lot, but in all honesty I can see very well how he wouldn't have gone and reviewed every trade on every site on his network on a consistant enough basis to weed out problem trades. I can almost guarantee there are a dozen other tgps right now trading traffic with the sites Slick is getting nailed for trading with, and they don't even realize what's on those sites.

(Remember the trades I'm talking about are the "redirects", that's the TGP skim, it's a percentage of traffic that tgp owners trade around to promote the growth of their systems... If a script sends 2 hits to so and so, their script will send him hits back, and it's this kind of traffic trades that grow tgps).

[LadyMischief]

I found the thread at "GFY" (heheh, nice acronym) and read through most of it. Well I had to skip some of the pages in the middle because it's just too many and too much bickering. Time for bed, delirium setting in. There's lots I hadn't considered, but I haven't really changed my opinion.

I see my post got quoted and scrutinized there as well. I'm not going to register there, but I can assure you that no, adult sites have nothing to do with my business. I'm a "surfer" in terms of not being an adult site operator but I'm a surfer that knows a thing or ten about how the Internet works. Some of us techies like to look at galleries too. Mr. Presumptuous over there is welcome to a nice steaming cup of "Shut the Heck Up". Tasty stuff. I know :)

You are in Ontario too and seem like a super smart guy. I'd love to chat with you.. Please email me, treasure@homegrownvideo.com Seems to me I could use a "surfer" with your kind of smarts for something I'm working on ;) You can also hit me up on icq 3522039.

[sarettah]

Slick can be responsible for what is on his own network, and he can do his BEST to stay on top of his trades, but in reality, he may not ever have known that his trades had CP or "virtual" CP on them. It would have been very likely in fact that he never had a clue.


All well said LM and I would agree with most of what you said.

However, I saw the thumbs that were running on one of slicks sites, I never went through to the galleries.

There was no excuse for the thumbs I saw. They were clearly targetting one type of customer and one type only.

Putting aside DN's legal right versus Slick's legal right etc for a second. My personal viewpoint is that anyone targetting that particular market is as bad as the customers in that particular market and the producers of that particular market and any so called "legal" sites or illegal sites that cater to that market. They should all die a very slow painful death and I personally don't give a fuck what anyone does to them legal or illegal. I do not care how we get rid of them, I just want them gone.

[Peaches]

But if you're saying it's illegal to copy it if someone voluntarily supplies it to you, then I call bullshit unless you can find the statute. If it's true, it's violated left and right by everyone including the state.
I'm still waiting for his proof. I guess he's been working the last 24 hours.

[LadyMischief]

All well said LM and I would agree with most of what you said.

However, I saw the thumbs that were running on one of slicks sites, I never went through to the galleries.

There was no excuse for the thumbs I saw. They were clearly targetting one type of customer and one type only.

Putting aside DN's legal right versus Slick's legal right etc for a second. My personal viewpoint is that anyone targetting that particular market is as bad as the customers in that particular market and the producers of that particular market and any so called "legal" sites or illegal sites that cater to that market. They should all die a very slow painful death and I personally don't give a fuck what anyone does to them legal or illegal. I do not care how we get rid of them, I just want them gone.

Slick claims on GFY that most of his thumbs were cut by the autocropper and that if you click through to the galleries the content should match exactly. The question is then is it the thumbs or the content that's questionable, and all the sites he was promoting from what I saw were from reputable (so to speak) sponsors. It leaves a fine tangled web, doesn't it?

[sarettah]

Slick claims on GFY that most of his thumbs were cut by the autocropper

Yeah, but I am a programmer. I don't allow people to blame it on the computer.

If you are a webmaster, you are responsible for what is on your site, plain and simple. Doesn't matter if you are running scripts or doing it by hand as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who puts their business completely in the hands of a computer will be out of business one way or the other in due time.

[Peaches]

TBH, from what I can gather STRICTLY on his GFY comments, Slick may have been in the adult industry for years, but he wasn't running it like it was a business. IMO, that's what got him into this mess and more than likely exacerbated it. When your first post is to come on GFY asking who the company is (when they clearly tell you every time you register or renew a domain) and then come back AGAIN to GFY asking for an attorney, admit you THOUGHT all the trades were OK, etc. then you're a sitting target.

[LadyMischief]

Yeah, but I am a programmer. I don't allow people to blame it on the computer.

If you are a webmaster, you are responsible for what is on your site, plain and simple. Doesn't matter if you are running scripts or doing it by hand as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who puts their business completely in the hands of a computer will be out of business one way or the other in due time.

*I* agree with you, however, people will use the tools that are available to them without truly realizing the consequences. Have you ever hand-cropped thousands of thumbs? Just asking.

[LadyMischief]

TBH, from what I can gather STRICTLY on his GFY comments, Slick may have been in the adult industry for years, but he wasn't running it like it was a business. IMO, that's what got him into this mess and more than likely exacerbated it. When your first post is to come on GFY asking who the company is (when they clearly tell you every time you register or renew a domain) and then come back AGAIN to GFY asking for an attorney, admit you THOUGHT all the trades were OK, etc. then you're a sitting target.

I agree, most people who are in the business on this level are not "businesspeople". TGP and those types of aspects of the business can be easier for entry-level folks, but I assure you that the guys that run the big networks are making _MUCH_ more than beer money, and more and more ARE starting to run things like a business, simply because circumstances force them to. I think Slick was kind of caught in the middle of a bigger fight, and just happened to be the unfortunate fellow the hammer fell on first. I truly don't believe he was doing anything other than running his business and making money for his family (and doing very well at it too, the Slick network is well known in the TGP world). He made the same mistakes 1000's of other people are continuing to make, and only education will change that. If nothing else comes out of this thing, it will be a shakeup for people to re-assess how they run their business and to accept that they have taken on liability in how they do things, and have contingencies in place to deal with it.

However all that being said, crucifying the guy without knowing the FULL story isn't exactly fair, either. More than anything I feel his problem was a lack of knowledge, as opposed to an intent of ill.

[LadyMischief]

Ok, sorry for having tunnel vision there. Reallyeighteen is the site that concerned me because it's one that I was using. I do also recall landing on amateurcurves through the redirects, but didn't realize they were the same people. I don't recall seeing anything bad there either.

I really hadn't given it much thought until today.

TGP Networks will trade to sites both within their network and outside of them. It's a way for them to grow the number of clicks that come into their sites, and (in theory) increase sales.

[Hammer]

There was no excuse for the thumbs I saw. They were clearly targetting one type of customer and one type only.
Exactly right, he was targeting pedophiles. Either that or he's a real idiot and was targeting teenage boys without credit cards.

[softball]

The issue here is not whether slick was right or wrong. I have never seen the material in question.
The issue is whether the registrar can be the judge and jury and hang the accused. I see no evidence of discussions or questioning of slick by DN.
There are courts and police and the FBI to deal with this before cutting off someone's business.
I disagree with Sarettah when he says get rid of all offenders in a legal or illegal manner. That is just lynch mob tactics. Again, we have courts for that.
This is sooooo like the communist witch hunts of the fifties it is scarey.
Personally, I cannot see how any one in this business could possibly defend DN for its actions in this case. We should collectively be raging against this shit.

[LadyMischief]

Exactly right, he was targeting pedophiles. Either that or he's a real idiot and was targeting teenage boys without credit cards.

This is where the line between societal mores and basic human evolution clash. 100 years ago, it was perfectly acceptable and even normal for a 14 year old girl to be married and starting a family. Throughout recorded history until OUR CENTURY, girls 12 years old were already getting married and starting families, and the (often much older) men they married didn't have people running around pointing and calling them pedophiles. It was the norm. In the human psyche, no matter what society tells us, males will respond to females who present them with "fresh, vital, full of life and fertile". It's simple instinct. In today's society it's not acceptable for men to be turned on by this because of the magical number "18" that has been imposed in the name of societal mores. I AGREE with that number being in place, I don't feel young girls in our society are ready to deal with more than they have already. HOWEVER, implying that men are pedophiles because they respond to/are attracted by youthful females, you are saying that it's human nature to be a pedophile. This is NOT the case. The definition of pedophile in the dictionary is:

pe·do·phile /ˈpidəˌfaɪl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pee-duh-fahyl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun Psychiatry.
an adult who is sexually attracted to young children.
Also, pedophiliac.

PRE-PUBESCENT children are the scope of interest of TRUE pedophiles, once they sproud their little boobies and start gaining some shape, the TRUE pedophiles are NO LONGER INTERESTED. The real issue here isn't subscribing to pedophiles so much as it's catering to human nature. Sure, CP gets thrown into the mix and there ARE sickos who seek that stuff, but if we're goign to start hurling these kind of words, let's be REALISTIC about the reasons why people keep doing it. IT WORKS. Human nature/instinct has NOT evolved as quickly as our society has and no matter if society says it's wrong, it is still a part of the equation. I am in no way saying that marketing in this way is good, or that I agree with it.. However, it DOES work, and will CONTINUE to work, right or wrong, not because of a world full of PERVERTS, but because it's a world full of MEN who are just as subject to their own nature as they are the neccessity to breathe.

Not a single man here could tell me he hasn't looked, BY INSTINCT at an attractive underage girl. What he did with the thought process after that point is really all his own nature, but the fact that his brain DID make him take note even though HE CONSCIOUSLY KNOWS IT'S WRONG UNDER SOCIETY'S law, his instincts are still playing that role of procreator and looking for the best, freshest, healthiest candidates to carry his DNA into the next generation.

[sarettah]

* Have you ever hand-cropped thousands of thumbs? Just asking.

Yep, which is the reason I don't do much site building anymore. Done right, it can be intensely boring, tedious work and you spend long hours doing it even with tools helping. I used to thumb and crop the images, catalog the sets and images by niche Multi niche actually, (redhead:lesbian:strapon:etc), type (softcore, hardcore), whether they were sponsor provided or purchased, 2257 info, etc, on and on.

And this was to be able to put trustworthy automation in place.

But, if you choose to run tgp or even just do a shit load of galleries and free sites, to do it right is a big job and when you decide you are going to do it is when you should have agreed with yourself to do the work.

There is nothing wrong with attemting to automate and make your job easier, however, it does not remove responsibility.

Old saying from my Navy days: You can delegate authority, you cannt delegate responsibility.

[sarettah]

Not a single man here could tell me he hasn't looked, BY INSTINCT at an attractive underage girl. What he did with the thought process after that point is really all his own nature, but the fact that his brain DID make him take note even though HE CONSCIOUSLY KNOWS IT'S WRONG UNDER SOCIETY'S law, his instincts are still playing that role of procreator and looking for the best, freshest, healthiest candidates to carry his DNA into the next generation.

The thumbs I saw appeared to be prepubescent, I would have put them in the 8 year old area. And I have 2 daughters so I do know the difference between prepubescent and teen.

These did not bring up the instinct of I want to reproduce with that, it brought up the image of anyone who destroys that innocence should be shot and damn, that girl is scared shitless of what that asshole is about to do.

[LadyMischief]

The thumbs I saw appeared to be prepubescent, I would have put them in the 8 year old area. And I have 2 daughters so I do know the difference between prepubescent and teen.

These did not bring up the instinct of I want to reproduce with that, it brought up the image of anyone who destroys that innocence should be shot and damn, that girl is scared shitless of what that asshole is about to do.

That shit scares me too, I have two little girls. THe stuff I personally saw on slick's sites was never that questionable, what was on his trades was what brought me up short.

My comments on instinct were simply to bring a little perspective to the other argument, about taking older girls and making them look younger. Actual CP itself is sickening, and if it was on Slick's sites he deserves what he gets. Every gallery I saw when I looked in web-archives were from well-known/highly promoted sponsors that are "reputable", however. Please show me the questionable thumbs because I'd be curious to see what sponsors they are promoting.

[LadyMischief]

Yep, which is the reason I don't do much site building anymore. Done right, it can be intensely boring, tedious work and you spend long hours doing it even with tools helping. I used to thumb and crop the images, catalog the sets and images by niche Multi niche actually, (redhead:lesbian:strapon:etc), type (softcore, hardcore), whether they were sponsor provided or purchased, 2257 info, etc, on and on.

And this was to be able to put trustworthy automation in place.

But, if you choose to run tgp or even just do a shit load of galleries and free sites, to do it right is a big job and when you decide you are going to do it is when you should have agreed with yourself to do the work.

There is nothing wrong with attemting to automate and make your job easier, however, it does not remove responsibility.

Old saying from my Navy days: You can delegate authority, you cannt delegate responsibility.

I agree, and that is how *I* run MY ship, however I think having had the experience, you can appreciate why someone would allow automation to remove 95% of the tedious labor from the process.. Some of these networks are massive and just cropping thumbs would be a 5 day a week job for someone. It's not an excuse, but I see WHY people leave these things up to automation.

[sarettah]

Please show me the questionable thumbs because I'd be curious to see what sponsors they are promoting.

The only page I looked at was the front of majorpervert. I am not sure how you would get back to what was there at that point.

[Peaches]

I never saw the questionable content on Slick's sites because it personally bothers me so much, that I won't even attempt to view it if even if proves a point.

However, many people FOR Slick and AGAINST DirectNic said there were CP links.

Slick might be making a lot of money doing what he's done. As Shania said "That don't impress me much.". The guy make mistake, after mistake, after mistake. If it runs him out of business, I have no pity for him.

I canceled all of my domains with "teen" in them at least 2 years ago. I removed all the content on my freesites when the 2257 issue was rearing its ugly head. It's possible to make money in this biz without even getting NEAR the edge of the envelope, let alone be over the edge and not even know it - where it seems Slick was.

[LadyMischief]

I never saw the questionable content on Slick's sites because it personally bothers me so much, that I won't even attempt to view it if even if proves a point.

However, many people FOR Slick and AGAINST DirectNic said there were CP links.

Slick might be making a lot of money doing what he's done. As Shania said "That don't impress me much.". The guy make mistake, after mistake, after mistake. If it runs him out of business, I have no pity for him.

I canceled all of my domains with "teen" in them at least 2 years ago. I removed all the content on my freesites when the 2257 issue was rearing its ugly head. It's possible to make money in this biz without even getting NEAR the edge of the envelope, let alone be over the edge and not even know it - where it seems Slick was.

That's great for you, but there are a lot of people who still promote the teen category in a LEGITIMATE way. Would those people not want to know who was doing things wrong and make sure they were blacklisted or they stopped doing business with them? I want to know because it might affect my business, and for no other reason at this point. You guys crucified him for his affiliations saying he should have "checked them" well I like to do the same kind of research, but I prefer to go on what is really there instead of heresay, that's all.

[Peaches]

That's great for you, but there are a lot of people who still promote the teen category in a LEGITIMATE way. Would those people not want to know who was doing things wrong and make sure they were blacklisted or they stopped doing business with them? I want to know because it might affect my business, and for no other reason at this point. You guys crucified him for his affiliations saying he should have "checked them" well I like to do the same kind of research, but I prefer to go on what is really there instead of heresay, that's all.
Well, apparently what was there was pretty bad. Per Slick's own post "Then it comes up here and half the board does have a problem with what's on there.".

The Dutch government even blocked access to some of his trades.

Bottom line, IMO, dude didn't check his trades and he was trading with some not-so-nice people who didn't think "teen" meant "over 18".

[LadyMischief]

Well, apparently what was there was pretty bad. Per Slick's own post "Then it comes up here and half the board does have a problem with what's on there.".

The Dutch government even blocked access to some of his trades.

Bottom line, IMO, dude didn't check his trades and he was trading with some not-so-nice people who didn't think "teen" meant "over 18".

I fail to see how his trades are suddenly the issue. I thought he got shut down for questionable content on HIS site? How come HIS sites were pulled and not the trades then? I'm confused?

[Peaches]

I fail to see how his trades are suddenly the issue. I thought he got shut down for questionable content on HIS site? How come HIS sites were pulled and not the trades then? I'm confused?
I thought you guys said those thumbnails on his site were delivered to him by his trades?

[TheEnforcer]

I canceled all of my domains with "teen" in them at least 2 years ago. I removed all the content on my freesites when the 2257 issue was rearing its ugly head. It's possible to make money in this biz without even getting NEAR the edge of the envelope, let alone be over the edge and not even know it - where it seems Slick was.


I don't own but a single domain, the one in my sig, and haven't had any content online for years. :)

[LadyMischief]

I thought you guys said those thumbnails on his site were delivered to him by his trades?

No, the thumnails on his site are dealt with by him.. The "redirects" are the trades, it's part of the skim that's built into tgp trade scripts to promote growth. He's responsible for the thumbs on his sites only, he would have no control over what is on the sites that he trades traffic with.

Peaches, have you ever surfed a TGP?

[softball]

I still say the question here is not the content. That is a total red herring. The issue is how to deal with it. Why are we even discussing the content. If DirectNic had a problem with that, then move the guy out and report him. Easy. However a company run by pornographers has little ethical ground to stand on when it comes to selling teen porn. They would have been the first to scream had they been put out of business for pitching teen girls.

How old do some of these girls look to you?
http://amateurindex.com/

[Toby]

I still say the question here is not the content. That is a total red herring. The issue is how to deal with it. Why are we even discussing the content...Exactly! In this particular case we're dealing with teen content, next time it might be gagging blow jobs, or extreme insertions, or whatever else someone decides is "questionable". Do you want your registrar to act as judge and jury? I know I don't, and all the DirectNic customers that are, or will be, moving their sites to other registrars in the next week or so agree with me.

[softball]

What will be interesting is to see how DN deals with a mass exodus, should it occur.

[urb]

What will be interesting is to see how DN deals with a mass exodus, should it occur.

It would take more than one incident like this for me to move domains away from DirectNic. I have quite a few registered with them and will continue to buy from them.

I can't believe that we have the whole story here.

[spazlabz]

The thumbs I saw appeared to be prepubescent, I would have put them in the 8 year old area. And I have 2 daughters so I do know the difference between prepubescent and teen.

That certainly changes a lot in my opinion. I did not see the thumbs in question because the sites were taken down before I found out about the discussion.

however, as distatseful as that is, it was not DN's place to shut down these sites. it just wasnt. No matter how indignant anyone could become over what was shown on that site DN had a legal course of action it should have taken and didn't.

It appears to be a knee jerk reaction, understandable as it may be, but they are not as rhetorical says Judge, Jurry & Executioner here and should not have tried to become one

By taking the high moral ground they acted like scummy bible thumpers


spaz

[spazlabz]

It would take more than one incident like this for me to move domains away from DirectNic. I have quite a few registered with them and will continue to buy from them.
Fair enough Urb... how many incidents would it take?


spaz

[LadyMischief]

That certainly changes a lot in my opinion. I did not see the thumbs in question because the sites were taken down before I found out about the discussion.

however, as distatseful as that is, it was not DN's place to shut down these sites. it just wasnt. No matter how indignant anyone could become over what was shown on that site DN had a legal course of action it should have taken and didn't.

It appears to be a knee jerk reaction, understandable as it may be, but they are not as rhetorical says Judge, Jurry & Executioner here and should not have tried to become one

By taking the high moral ground they acted like scummy bible thumpers


spaz

You can see what was on the site to this day on web-archives. I don't have the url handy but I've been through quite a few of the listings.