Foreign webmasters aren't immune to U.S. laws

[Hammer]

We've been saying this could happen and foreign webmasters that think they've got it made now that us U.S. webmasters have it rough better not plan any vacations to the U.S., especially if they host in the U.S. like this guy did.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=71966

[pam]

I've been echoing your sentiments for a long time, that if you host in the USA you're subject to USA laws, but you know how many people say we're full of shit and they're immune.

I remember this guy posting on another board but I can't find his posts ...

[gonzo]

I've been echoing your sentiments for a long time, that if you host in the USA you're subject to USA laws, but you know how many people say we're full of shit and they're immune.

I remember this guy posting on another board but I can't find his posts ...
The seminars me and Mike South did at Dragoncon had several people telling us we could avoid all this with offshore hosting.

Heres a case where the guy wasnt even a citizen.

[pam]

The problem is when you tell people that offshore hosting makes you safe they tell you you're full of shit as they talked to this or that attorney, who most likely earned their degree online.

Chris Wilson hosted offshore. This guy hosted offshore. Geez, even gambling guys operating outside the USA are being nailed.

People are ignoring 2257, 4462 and blatantly claiming since they live in the UK it doesn't matter where they host .... when the shit hits the fan it won't be pretty.

[Hammer]

When they suggested that hosting offshore would protect you did you scream and shout and call them idiots and tell them to shut the fuck up before they get someone in trouble? I would have.

Keep in mind that this is not simply a case of a guy that ran a porn site and hosted in the U.S., because this guy was using the U.S. Postal Service to ship obscene material and extreme obscene material at that.

What this does show is that although the Feds probably won't go to another country to enforce our laws, they will nab someone when they step foot in the U.S. This was also apparently done with the cooperation of his country's government.

[gonzo]

When they suggested that hosting offshore would protect you did you scream and shout and call them idiots and tell them to shut the fuck up before they get someone in trouble? I would have.

Keep in mind that this is not simply a case of a guy that ran a porn site and hosted in the U.S., because this guy was using the U.S. Postal Service to ship obscene material and extreme obscene material at that.

What this does show is that although the Feds probably won't go to another country to enforce our laws, they will nab someone when they step foot in the U.S. This was also apparently done with the cooperation of his country's government.
Same guy was telling us we needed to educate the government about how IP works. People are willfully visiting our site.

We both told him they dont give a fuck how IP works and will throw your ass in jail.

My guess is he should have taken his water inspecting girlfriend and bred her. I think she was getting excited looking down on the pornographers.

[spazlabz]

two things surprised me about that article.
1) anyone would be stupid enough to use the USPS to ship porn
2) CP wasn't mentioned in the charges... how can they make ANY arrest related to porn and not somehow manage to throw CP into the mix. I would have expected it to read something like this;
According to documents filed in the District Court in Orlando, Croce and his corporation, Lex Multimedia, operated Web sites offering obscene videos for download or delivery in the U.S. The videos depicted bukkake, fisting and depictions of defecation, urination and vomiting in conjunction with sex acts some of the performers were believed to be under the age of 18 and I swear to gawd he shipped them to five different grade schools throughout the US. These Web sites are being hosted on Web servers in Texas. Croce's videos are delivered to his U.S. customers by mail and common carriers from a location in Orlando, Fla.
my additions are in bold face font it just seems that the USAG missed a perfect chance to scream about protecting children!


spaz

[TheEnforcer]

Well, yeah. That's the guy's own fault for not being smart enough to host outside the USA. You have ANY part of your business in the USA, hosting, using snail mail, blling, etc. and you are subject to it's laws should you come here. That's no big shock.

[TheEnforcer]

The problem is when you tell people that offshore hosting makes you safe they tell you you're full of shit as they talked to this or that attorney, who most likely earned their degree online.

Chris Wilson hosted offshore. This guy hosted offshore. Geez, even gambling guys operating outside the USA are being nailed.

People are ignoring 2257, 4462 and blatantly claiming since they live in the UK it doesn't matter where they host .... when the shit hits the fan it won't be pretty.


That's obvious because you are referring to US webmasters. This is a foreigner getting tangled up with US laws. Much different.

[Hammer]

The only way that a foreign webmaster can thumb his nose at 2257 and U.S. obscenity laws is if he conducts all of his business totally outside of the U.S.

1. Live outside the U.S.
2. Host outside the U.S.
3. Use a foreign processor
4. Do not ship products to the U.S.

[Peaches]

The only way that a foreign webmaster can thumb his nose at 2257 and U.S. obscenity laws is if he conducts all of his business totally outside of the U.S.

1. Live outside the U.S.
2. Host outside the U.S.
3. Use a foreign processor
4. Do not ship products to the U.S.
What if someone from the US views your site/signs up for it?

[TheEnforcer]

What if someone from the US views your site/signs up for it?

I suppose they could go after obscenity charges and try them in abstentia and arrest them should they ever come to the USA I suppose. Doubt they would waste the resources though.

[Hammer]

What if someone from the US views your site/signs up for it?
That is another problem although I've got a feeling that one would be considerably harder to enforce.

[LadyMischief]

I've been echoing your sentiments for a long time, that if you host in the USA you're subject to USA laws, but you know how many people say we're full of shit and they're immune.

I remember this guy posting on another board but I can't find his posts ...



Absolutely this is the case, or if you bill in the us or anything, you are putting yourself under US jurisdiction. This is why I did my hosting etc in Canada as well.

[Fausty]

I suppose they could go after obscenity charges and try them in abstentia and arrest them should they ever come to the USA I suppose. Doubt they would waste the resources though.

There are no trials "in absentia" in the US criminal justice system, fyi. Some countries do have it - Italy comes to mind - but it's somewhat anathema to the English common law approach to criminal trials.

The 'War on Drugs' opened the door for the US to apply its domestic laws to folks living - and working - in other countries. Of course, this was to get the "drug barons" which is all well and good. However, once that door was open it's a bit tough to close it. I did time with guys that were literally kidnapped out of their houses in Costa Rica, by ATF/Treasury agents with guns, for alleged US tax violations and hauled off to trial and incarceration. It is real.

I gave a presentation ("Home is Where the Heart Is?") at The Last HOPE on related topics (www{dot}thelasthope.org/talks.html), and I'm surprised how few folks have a decent feel for the current state of cross-border jurisdictional enforcement mechanisms. I don't claim to be an expert, but it's worth knowing enough to know what the overall framework has in store. For every objective fact, there's some urban legend or outright fantasy about what can - and cannot - happen in international law enforcement.

Regards,

Fausty