Diabolic gets an FBI visit - first enforcement of 2257.. who's next?

[LadyMischief]

9 more companies on the list... wow.

http://www.avn.com/index.php?Primary_Navigation=Articles&Action=View_Article&Content_ID=272407

[TheEnforcer]

9 more companies on the list... wow.

http://www.avn.com/index.php?Primary_Navigation=Articles&Action=View_Article&Content_ID=272407

Looks like if people took the time to prepare that they should be ok.

[Greg B]

Glad I only do toons!

Doesn't seem like something big. They're just doing their jobs is all.

So do the Jets have a chance this year? The Jets are due for a Superbowl win.

[Hammer]

Greg, your naivete is getting a little funny.

Apparently, Diabolic and the other 9 companies weren't smart enough to join the FSC or the injunction would have prevented the inspections.

[Greg B]

Greg, your naivete is getting a little funny.

Apparently, Diabolic and the other 9 companies weren't smart enough to join the FSC or the injunction would have prevented the inspections.

Naivete'? What, the FBI is gonna ask me how old a cartoon is? Ask for it's ID?

You bring up the FSC tell us newbies what FSC means this time. Thanks.

[pam]

Being a member of the FSC to stop the inspections is valid if they were being inspected for secondary producer. These are all primary producer inspections.

I read that a company in Miami was also visited but haven't seen any proof of that yet.

[Hammer]

Naivete'? What, the FBI is gonna ask me how old a cartoon is? Ask for it's ID?

You bring up the FSC tell us newbies what FSC means this time. Thanks.
Dude, you need to get over the 2257 issue and look at the broader picture. No, of course they aren't going to ask for a toon's ID, but they sure as hell will say that a toon depicting a chick getting fucked in the ass by a monster cock is obscene, toon or not, and the part to be concerned about is if somemone thinks that the female in your toon looks too young.

My point about Red Rose is that the lady was arrested for obscenity (not 2257) over an erotic story that described incest and sex with a minor. No real humans were involved, obviously, but she was arrested none-the-less. My apologies for linking to another board but I can't find the story any place else right now. http://www.ynot.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=news_article&sid=9839

When I say you're being naive, I'm referring to your apparent belief that the latest bill to amend 2257, or any other proposed bill that has been written about lately, has anything to do with stopping CP, when in reality, it's just part of an ongoing witch hunt to eliminate porn from the Internet. And that's all forms of pornography, including obscene toons and anime.

FSC stands for the Free Speech Coalition. http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/ Anyone that is a 'secondary producer' and not also a 'primary producer' that joins the FSC, will be protected from any inspections by an injunction.

p.s. I hope you understand that I'm not saying that I personally think there is anything wrong with erotic toons and stories -- anymore than I believe there is anything wrong with any form of erotica, as long as it's legal -- I'm just pointing out that producing any form of erotica, even if it doesn't depict actual people, is not completely safe.

[Hammer]

Being a member of the FSC to stop the inspections is valid if they were being inspected for secondary producer. These are all primary producer inspections.
Exactly right Pam, and I missed that the first time I read the report. Diabolic are indeed 'primary producers' and thus have been subject to 2257 since they started producing their own content, since the law has been in effect since '95.

Just to clarify. If you are a webmaster and DO NOT produce your own content but purchase it from a producer or provider or use the free content provided by a sponsor, AND you are a member of the FSC (http://www.freespeechcoalition.com), then you are immune to 2257 inspections due to the current injunction that was granted the FSC.

NOTE: I am not suggesting that just because you are a member of the FSC, you should ignore 2257 altogether. Frankly, I think that you should obtain the necessary documents from any producer you purchase content from and come up with a system for maintaining those records in a way that will allow you to access them quickly.

Further, since you cannot get the 2257 documents for much of the content and banners provided by sponsors, I would recommend either using softcore only, or being able to quickly change any hardcore content or banners out ASAP if it becomes necessary.

[pam]

I've never done hardcore content. 2257 came into being when I was a publisher so I'm intimately familiar with it. Before that I'd made the decision to steer clear of hardcore due to various laws around the country, and it was the best decision I've ever made.

People say you can't make money with softcore but I've literally made millions and will continue to do so, with softcore content.

On the Red Rose issue, have you ever seen the indictment? I haven't and want to, because I read that she had trading of CP in her forums. People on another board confirmed this -- but -- was she busted for that, or was it solely for the stories? Her meta tags at the time included "incest" which wasn't very wise, in my opinion. SHE claimed it was just stories, yet no on has seen any paperwork ....

People who do toons and think they are safe will find out someday that they aren't. I found this paragraph that may shock some toon artists who feel they're very safe, "A convicted sex offender, who pleaded guilty to receiving child pornography in 1999 and is due to be released from prison on April 1st, could spend the rest of his life in prison for downloading anime that depicted children having sex. According to a report on Richmond based WRIC channel 8 News (http://www.wric.com/Global/story.asp?S=3123260), the man downloaded at least 20 images of anime pornography involving children being forced to have sex. The images were downloaded on a computer at the Virginia Employment Commission.

Provisions of the Child Pornography Prevention Act (CPPA), a 1996 law that banned virtual child pornography, were thrown out by the US Supreme Court in 2002 on freedom of speech grounds. However WRIC reports that this individual is the first to be charged under "a new child pornography law that can apply to cartoons." The report did not specify whether this was a federal or state law, however the US Attorney's Office was cited as being involved. If convicted, he could face life in prison."

Oh, members of the FSC are exempt from record-keeping inspections now, but if the new provisions are not overturned, they can still be prosecuted for having that content without the records.

[pam]

Exactly right Pam, and I missed that the first time I read the report. Diabolic are indeed 'primary producers' and thus have been subject to 2257 since they started producing their own content, since the law has been in effect since '95.

I did, too -- and it was only the press release by the FSC that informed me otherwise.

[Greg B]

I've never done hardcore content. 2257 came into being when I was a publisher so I'm intimately familiar with it. Before that I'd made the decision to steer clear of hardcore due to various laws around the country, and it was the best decision I've ever made.

People say you can't make money with softcore but I've literally made millions and will continue to do so, with softcore content.

On the Red Rose issue, have you ever seen the indictment? I haven't and want to, because I read that she had trading of CP in her forums. People on another board confirmed this -- but -- was she busted for that, or was it solely for the stories? Her meta tags at the time included "incest" which wasn't very wise, in my opinion. SHE claimed it was just stories, yet no on has seen any paperwork ....

People who do toons and think they are safe will find out someday that they aren't. I found this paragraph that may shock some toon artists who feel they're very safe, "A convicted sex offender, who pleaded guilty to receiving child pornography in 1999 and is due to be released from prison on April 1st, could spend the rest of his life in prison for downloading anime that depicted children having sex. According to a report on Richmond based WRIC channel 8 News (http://www.wric.com/Global/story.asp?S=3123260), the man downloaded at least 20 images of anime pornography involving children being forced to have sex. The images were downloaded on a computer at the Virginia Employment Commission.

Provisions of the Child Pornography Prevention Act (CPPA), a 1996 law that banned virtual child pornography, were thrown out by the US Supreme Court in 2002 on freedom of speech grounds. However WRIC reports that this individual is the first to be charged under "a new child pornography law that can apply to cartoons." The report did not specify whether this was a federal or state law, however the US Attorney's Office was cited as being involved. If convicted, he could face life in prison."

Oh, members of the FSC are exempt from record-keeping inspections now, but if the new provisions are not overturned, they can still be prosecuted for having that content without the records.

Of course if you deliberately draw child porn or write about it you should be nailed. That's been running for a long time. In Japan or other countries it's considered LEGAL. That asshole who d/loaded it should have had his ass kicked.

It was a 1st amendment issue but it gets foggy. Bottom line is if you draw that shit INTENTIONALLY and INTENTIONAL is the keyword here then you should get nailed.

[Greg B]

Dude, you need to get over the 2257 issue and look at the broader picture. No, of course they aren't going to ask for a toon's ID, but they sure as hell will say that a toon depicting a chick getting fucked in the ass by a monster cock is obscene, toon or not, and the part to be concerned about is if somemone thinks that the female in your toon looks too young.

My point about Red Rose is that the lady was arrested for obscenity (not 2257) over an erotic story that described incest and sex with a minor. No real humans were involved, obviously, but she was arrested none-the-less. My apologies for linking to another board but I can't find the story any place else right now. http://www.ynot.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=news_article&sid=9839

When I say you're being naive, I'm referring to your apparent belief that the latest bill to amend 2257, or any other proposed bill that has been written about lately, has anything to do with stopping CP, when in reality, it's just part of an ongoing witch hunt to eliminate porn from the Internet. And that's all forms of pornography, including obscene toons and anime.

FSC stands for the Free Speech Coalition. http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/ Anyone that is a 'secondary producer' and not also a 'primary producer' that joins the FSC, will be protected from any inspections by an injunction.

p.s. I hope you understand that I'm not saying that I personally think there is anything wrong with erotic toons and stories -- anymore than I believe there is anything wrong with any form of erotica, as long as it's legal -- I'm just pointing out that producing any form of erotica, even if it doesn't depict actual people, is not completely safe.

Nothing is safe if it can't be controlled by the powers that be. The only reasons online porn are being attacked are:

1.) Fucked up webmaster criminals ripping people off.
2.) People making lots of money who otherwise would have been piss broke trying to make a living in the completely disfunctional workaday system already established thus thwarting the control of the ruling classes.
3.) Irresponsible parents, webmasters etc. all not taking into account the ramifications of what they do.
4.) People blaming porn on their crimes or blaming porn for the source of criminal behavior. I don't remember such mass murderers like Josep Stalin or Hitler having a Bangbros pass. It's bullshit but something has to be blamed for our irresponsibilty to straighten out our own problems.

It's about excuses. I got into doing this as a protest. Reason being the industries I was in, animation and comics were run by corporate gangsters that the cops and federal government were too cowardly to prosecute. We had to battle them OURSELVES while the people we elected and paid to do the job sat back and took kickbacks. Got so bad even the federal court judges admonished the bad guys in court after they fucked up a multibillion dollar company and STILL the authorities sat on their asses.

It's about control. The Internet was a wild card that made the wrong people a fuckload of money. The status quo got overturned and now the elite who run this world have to catch up but they can't unless they use laws to harrass and punish those who don't fall in line. They can't have the 'peasant class' dining at fine restaurants or joining the country club.

It's about the controll of the ruling class that got way out of hand when people found out they could use computers to gain major wealth and influence politics and give people alternate viewpoints and facts thus breaking the mind contol stranglehold the major industries had on us.

NY Times and other major newspapers are DYING because we don't need them to get our info anymore. TV News is barely hanging on. If some shit jumps off anywhere in the world we can just get on a chat line and find out for ourselves.

What's obscene to one guy may be funny to another. It's often used vindictively, yet even then when used that way it always backfires.

Witch hunt for porn? Nah, more like a witch hunt for people who rip people off or who won't tow the line.

[Greg B]

The main reason I don't promote other people's affiliate programs is due primarily to not being able to trust them to do their jobs right.

It has to be a toon site of a person I know to promote.

There are too many junkies and degenerate gamblers and drunks who run these companies and their fucking up is inevitable.

I make my own content.

[TheEnforcer]

The main reason I don't promote other people's affiliate programs is due primarily to not being able to trust them to do their jobs right.

It has to be a toon site of a person I know to promote.

There are too many junkies and degenerate gamblers and drunks who run these companies and their fucking up is inevitable.

I make my own content.

You really have a hang up about those things don't you? It seems to color much of your thinking.

[gonzo]

We are all killers and asswholes....

[Greg B]

You really have a hang up about those things don't you? It seems to color much of your thinking.

Dude, please.

I've been in this biz long enough to proclaim before the populace that the majority of affiliate programs don't convert. By the time we get the chance to promote them the affiliate's friends have saturated the market already.

There're enough webmasters I've known through the years I've had to personally send to rehabs. I know the game.

I've learned to make sure to know the minds behind the behinds before promoting. If a guy comes up on the up and up then cool. If he's a fucking moron with one foot in a jail cell then hell no. Even if his employees do dumb shit I'll drop it.

Don't need it.

[TheEnforcer]

Dude, please.

I've been in this biz long enough to proclaim before the populace that the majority of affiliate programs don't convert. By the time we get the chance to promote them the affiliate's friends have saturated the market already.

There're enough webmasters I've known through the years I've had to personally send to rehabs. I know the game.

I've learned to make sure to know the minds behind the behinds before promoting. If a guy comes up on the up and up then cool. If he's a fucking moron with one foot in a jail cell then hell no. Even if his employees do dumb shit I'll drop it.

Don't need it.

Just because you have such a shitty view of this industry that doesn't automatically make it the case. While it certainly has it's problems you appear to can't stand it and look down upon a great many people.

It goes without saying that you have to check into programs, whether it be mainstream or adult, but you seem to just bash the industry and the people in it wholesale. I personally have gotten to know a TON of great people in this business over the years. As a matter fo fact I've met FAR more great people in this biz than I have assholes.

If you don't like the industry and the people in it so much why are you in it?

[pam]

Nothing is safe if it can't be controlled by the powers that be. The only reasons online porn are being attacked are:

1.) Fucked up webmaster criminals ripping people off.

Say what?

You think some dishonest websites caused this? Go back to the Meese Commission report (was that before your time?) and read the dates when the original 18 USC 2257 was born. The Internet was in its infancy at that time.

You've been in the industry long enough to know that affiliate programs don't convert, huh? I think you just suck at web promotion, to be blunt. Many of us have made more money than you'll ever see in your lifetime due to honest affiliate programs.

Not sure who you hang out with, but I'm not aware of any of my webmaster friends who have had to go through rehab. I don't drink, smoke, gamble or do drugs, nor do I sleep around, and gee, I'm in the adult industry. By your statements I should be a coke-snorting slut who installs Spyware to make cash while placing bets in her sleep through some script she stole from an unsuspecting innocent.

[LadyMischief]

Say what?

You think some dishonest websites caused this? Go back to the Meese Commission report (was that before your time?) and read the dates when the original 18 USC 2257 was born. The Internet was in its infancy at that time.

You've been in the industry long enough to know that affiliate programs don't convert, huh? I think you just suck at web promotion, to be blunt. Many of us have made more money than you'll ever see in your lifetime due to honest affiliate programs.

Not sure who you hang out with, but I'm not aware of any of my webmaster friends who have had to go through rehab. I don't drink, smoke, gamble or do drugs, nor do I sleep around, and gee, I'm in the adult industry. By your statements I should be a coke-snorting slut who installs Spyware to make cash while placing bets in her sleep through some script she stole from an unsuspecting innocent.

Haha I was thinking the same thing. I don't drink or anything like that either, and I work extremely hard for what I get. There are definitely some bad industry "apples", but they are the exception for the most part, not the rule. Any good company that wants to stay in business for any amount of time can't afford to be dishonest... we're seeing this come to a head even more now with the downfall of legendary cheats and thieves.

[Hammer]

There are assholes in every industry, but to make generalizations about any industry based on the minority that are bad is just plain silly.

[Greg B]

Say what?

You think some dishonest websites caused this? Go back to the Meese Commission report (was that before your time?) and read the dates when the original 18 USC 2257 was born. The Internet was in its infancy at that time.

You've been in the industry long enough to know that affiliate programs don't convert, huh? I think you just suck at web promotion, to be blunt. Many of us have made more money than you'll ever see in your lifetime due to honest affiliate programs.

Not sure who you hang out with, but I'm not aware of any of my webmaster friends who have had to go through rehab. I don't drink, smoke, gamble or do drugs, nor do I sleep around, and gee, I'm in the adult industry. By your statements I should be a coke-snorting slut who installs Spyware to make cash while placing bets in her sleep through some script she stole from an unsuspecting innocent.

Meese commission? Kid I'm older than most modern legislation so don't flap your lips at me about 'before your time' shit.

"make more money they you'll ever see in a lifetime..."

Highly unlikely. I'm gonna put that on the bathroom wall at the nearest hooters.

Some affiliate programs rock. Some don't. I don't like most and have known the folks behind them since they started them over a decade ago and then some.

You have no fucking clue as to whom I've dealt with in this business over the past ten years and whom I've helped so shake that shit in the wind with the rest of it.

[Greg B]

Haha I was thinking the same thing. I don't drink or anything like that either, and I work extremely hard for what I get. There are definitely some bad industry "apples", but they are the exception for the most part, not the rule. Any good company that wants to stay in business for any amount of time can't afford to be dishonest... we're seeing this come to a head even more now with the downfall of legendary cheats and thieves.

Sure there are bad apples Mischief and sure they're the exception not the rule but they sure leave a bad taste in the public and government's mouths.

[LadyMischief]

Sure there are bad apples Mischief and sure they're the exception not the rule but they sure leave a bad taste in the public and government's mouths.


Unfortunately it's true, the government and public uses those people as a focus. Think for a minute about how suddenly everyone thinks Myspace is horrible based on some bad experiences. Sure there have been quite a few, but if you actually think about how many people USE myspace, and how many incidents of rotten stuff have happened, the numbers just aren't that scary. The media will always focus on what gets the story, and therefore the government will too, because suddenly it's urgent and horrible and everyone doing porn is evil too.

The few bad apples make it a little bit harder for all of us, but life, or business without challenge would get awfully boring quickly :)