Don't fear the 'meegra

[CDSmith]

Getting back to having actual discussions like the old days here....

So this past week saw the first days of "the crackdown" on illegal immigrants to the US. A whopping 1100 (out of what, 20-something-million?)..... well, it's a start.

from the New York Times dated April 21
"In its first days, the crackdown resulted in the detention of more than 1,100 illegal immigrants in 26 states and the arrest of seven managers and former managers of a pallet supply company, bringing praise from groups favoring stricter enforcement of immigration laws but prompting dread and resentment among immigrant workers and some employers."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/22/us/22workers.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=loginWhere do you stand on this issue? Should the US gov't round them all up and ship them back to Mexico? Heavily fine all employers who hire these people? Or should they leave it alone and get over it?

What about this private group who is planning to put up a wall to keep them out? Some are comparing "the wall" to another wall, one that needed to come down in the name of freedom. I'm not sure I see a comparison there, but I'm interested in your take.

Then there's the issue of what to do to offending employers:

"Jamie Zuieback, a spokeswoman for the immigration enforcement agency, said that the crackdown was aimed at employers who "egregiously and specifically violate the law," and that the agency believed most employers "do want to follow the law and be in compliance."Problem being, how are employers able at present to check the status of job applicants? I wonder how in this day and age where they can target a cruise missile to hit a garage door from 300 miles away that they don't have a system in place where employers can log in with some sort of member ID and check to see if someone is in fact a US citizen or not.


And lastly, the border patrols are going have something to say about putting up a fence that will ultimately prevent illegals from stealing over the border in the night.

It's going to seriously cut into their little side sex trade they've been enjoying for decades...

No one in the media seems to want to address this, so I will...

http://www.thewinnipegpages.com/forum/uploads/post-2-1140303510.jpg

Deleting illegal immigration will also delete one major job perk for those guys.

[el pres]

What would be the effect on labour/food costs?

[Jace]

Well, i think the people that are already should be allowed to stay as long as they take steps to become american citizens and have a probationary period in which they are kept under eyes to make sure they become productive members of the american work force

while at the same time we definitely need to tighten up our borders...I am all for some sort of fence, but at the same time I think it is very unrealistic

[CDSmith]

What would be the effect on labour/food costs?Of what? Keeping them or getting rid of them?

[Hammer]

I don't have a problem with immigrants, but when they sneak into our country to make money and then sneak back to Mexico, that bugs me.

The idea of allowing their children to attend out public schools that we pay taxes to support and they pay nothing for, bugs me.

Allowing them free medical attention at emergency rooms bugs me.

Living in Southern California, Texas or Florida where we now have bilingual signs in department stores, bugs me.

When I stop at a convenience store and the employees don't speak English, that bugs me.

If you come to this country to work, pay taxes.

If you don't speak the language, learn and I'm not going to change my signs just because you're too fucky lazy to.

[Jace]

I don't have a problem with immigrants, but when they sneak into our country to make money and then sneak back to Mexico, that bugs me. The idea of allowing their children to attend out public schools that we pay taxes to support and they pay nothing for bugs me too. Allowing them free medical attention at emergency rooms bugs me. Living in Southern California, Texas or Florida where we now have bilingual signs in department stores and when you stop at a convenience store and the employees don't speak English, bugs me.

If you come to this country to work, pay taxes.
If you don't speak the language, learn and I'm not going to change my signs just because you're too fucky lazy to.

i agree with every single thing above

we went to miami a year or so ago to a town called Hialeah (sp?) for a feature gig for tabitha, and while we were there we didn't find one person in any restaurant or shop that spoke english...we went to Wendy's for lunch and my wife tried to get mayonaise on her sandwich and they had to pull the manager out of the back room to translate for us.I just couldn't believe we were in America

[PornoDoggy]

i agree with every single thing above

we went to miami a year or so ago to a town called Hialeah (sp?) for a feature gig for tabitha, and while we were there we didn't find one person in any restaurant or shop that spoke english...we went to Wendy's for lunch and my wife tried to get mayonaise on her sandwich and they had to pull the manager out of the back room to translate for us.I just couldn't believe we were in America
You sound like my grandpop describing his first trip to St. Louis which was before WWI.

The difference is that my grandpop didn't speak German.

[CDSmith]

Here's an interesting perspective:
If you are ready for the adventure of a lifetime, TRY THIS:
"Enter Mexico illegally. Never mind immigration quotas, visas, international law, or any of that nonsense.
Once there, demand that the local government provide free medical care for you and your entire family. Demand bilingual nurses and doctors.
Demand free bilingual local government forms, bulletins, etc.
Keep your American identity strong Fly Old Glory from your rooftop, or proudly display it in your front window or on your car bumper.
Speak only English at home and in public and insist that your children do likewise.
Demand classes on American culture in the Mexican school system.
Demand a local Mexican driver license. This will afford other legal rights and will go far to legitimize your unauthorized, illegal, presence in Mexico.
Drive around with no liability insurance and ignore local traffic laws.
Insist that local Mexican law enforcement teach English to all its officers.
Good luck! You'll be demanding for the rest of time, because it will never happen.
It will not happen in Mexico or any other country in the world except right
here in the United States, land of the naive and stupid, idiotic politically correct politicians.
If you agree, pass it on. If you don't, go ahead and try the above in Mexico."I received the above in an email last week.

Thoughts?

[Jace]

Here's an interesting perspective:
I received the above in an email last week.

Thoughts?
yeah, we got that one too

the only difference someone pointed out to me, is that mexico doesn't have a "melting pot" philosophy....we made it very clear in the beginning stages of our country that we welcome anyone at anytime...mexico doesn't have anything like that, and while I know they love our tourism, they don't want us living there permanently

but I understand the point and irony of the letter though, and can appreciate where it comes from

[Winetalk.com]

Living in Southern California, Texas or Florida where we now have bilingual signs in department stores, bugs me.



Never go to Japan, the second biggest economy in the world,
ALL their signs are in Japanese and English,
this would bug the living shit out of you.

[Winetalk.com]

I don't have a problem with immigrants, but when they sneak into our country to make money and then sneak back to Mexico, that bugs me..

Does it bug you that they do the job you and your ilk don't wanna do and keep inflation lower than it would have been otherwise?

[Hammer]

Never go to Japan, the second biggest economy in the world,
ALL their signs are in Japanese and English,
this would bug the living shit out of you.
The difference is that a huge number of English speaking people either do business in Japan and visit the country as tourists so they do it for convenience and those people aren't there illegally.

That's quite a bit different than accomodating Spanish speaking people because they live here but don't know how to speak the language.

[Hammer]

Does it bug you that they do the job you and your ilk don't wanna do and keep inflation lower than it would have been otherwise?
That's the one and only reason that they are tolerated at all. But they don't only do menial labor like picking apples and oranges, they also get jobs as waiters in Mexican restaurants and do other jobs that Americans are willing to do and get paid a fair wage to do.

And what do you mean 'my ilk'? Would you pick fruit? I doubt it so that makes you of the same ilk as me. ;)

[Jace]

Does it bug you that they do the job you and your ilk don't wanna do and keep inflation lower than it would have been otherwise?

where are people coming up with this thing that americans don't want to paint walls or pick tabacco? that makes no sense and is an illogical argument

americans NEED jobs, most of the peopel I know that need jobs don't care what job it is, but they do care that some illegal is taking what could be their money

and since when have you known poor people to turn down jobs because it wasn't glamorous enough?

[Jace]

Never go to Japan, the second biggest economy in the world,
ALL their signs are in Japanese and English,
this would bug the living shit out of you.

and I am sure the illegal immigrant problem is out of control in japan, all those damn pesky illegal american immigrants must get on those japanese peoples nerves!

[Peaches]

OK, so....would the increase in products be counteracted by the decrease in goverment spending taking care of illegal immigrants?

I've mentioned this before, but they aren't just taking the jobs Americans don't want. Here in GA where new contruction of homes is HUGE, many mulitgenerational construction companies are having to close because they can't compete with the companies paying illegals to do the same work at below legal minimum wage. Many of the construction companies that are going out of business hire legal Mexican immigrants and pay them a fair wage. So, the illegal Mexicans are even taking jobs away from the Legal Mexicans. Fair?

There was a guy on GFY talking about his illegal immigrant cousin who went to school, college, and medical school all on the US's dime and is now becoming a doctor. Is a doctor one of those jobs Americans don't want to do?

There was a story in last weeks ATL paper about a legal immigrant making $850 a month so he legally qualified for government assistance in the way of food stamps, welfare checks, WIC, etc. Problem is that his boss had 9 other illegals using the guy's SS# so on paper he was making $8500 a month and therefore didn't qualify for any assistance. Is THAT fair?

If I had to pay an extra $4 for a pound of apples and not have to pay more in Medicaid taxes to take care of the illegals, I'd be willing to do that.

Personally I think you hit the employers and hit them hard.

[Winetalk.com]

When I stop at a convenience store and the employees don't speak English, that bugs me.

are you living in "One Convenience Store" town? Go to another one, where you'll be fully understood and given all TLC in perfectly spoken English and enjoy the best service in the world.


If you don't speak the language, learn and I'm not going to change my signs just because you're too fucky lazy to.

Americans are the laziest bunch on Earth as far as knowledge of second language goes. I know only ONE member here who is fluent in the language which is not his native - JR, while few here can hardly express themselves coherently in English - the "native tongue".

[Winetalk.com]

The difference is that a huge number of English speaking people either do business in Japan and visit the country as tourists so they do it for convenience and those people aren't there illegally.

That's quite a bit different than accomodating Spanish speaking people because they live here but don't know how to speak the language.

not true...
Japan is #30 on the list of most visited countries, same as Croatia.

[Winetalk.com]

That's the one and only reason that they are tolerated at all. But they don't only do menial labor like picking apples and oranges, they also get jobs as waiters in Mexican restaurants and do other jobs that Americans are willing to do and get paid a fair wage to do.

And what do you mean 'my ilk'? Would you pick fruit? I doubt it so that makes you of the same ilk as me. ;)

what is "menial"? How many mistakes have you done in 6 letters word,
posting in the language which is your native?

[Hammer]

are you living in "One Convenience Store" town? Go to another one, where you'll be fully understood and given all TLC in perfectly spoken English and enjoy the best service in the world.
Apparently you've not been to many convenience stores in Miami.

not true...
Japan is #30 on the list of most visited countries, same as Croatia.
ummm... Big difference between visitors and illegal immigrants and I seriously doubt if any Americans are illegally immigrating to Japan or Croatia and being supported by those government.

[Rcourt64]

Does it bug you that they do the job you and your ilk don't wanna do and keep inflation lower than it would have been otherwise?

I don't believe that it's right for them coming here and "Do the jobs you and your ilk don't wanna do" They are a very hard working race, and will work for pennies. which is fine for the economy. But when a major hiring company tells me that either I accept the standards of there job & they will only pay $ amount. And if I don't like it, well theres about 25 illegals hanging at the 7-11 on the corner. who will perform the same work "and some more even" the average american won't do for 1/2 the paying price. So if we don't like it, well, theres the door.

[Winetalk.com]

There was a guy on GFY talking about his illegal immigrant cousin who went to school, college, and medical school all on the US's dime and is now becoming a doctor. Is a doctor one of those jobs Americans don't want to do?


There are lots of guys on GFY who talk lots of things. GFY is the most credible source of information I ever run into.

[Hammer]

what is "menial"? How many mistakes have you done in 6 letters word,
posting in the language which is your native?
I make very few spelling mistakes. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=menial

Common Serge, that was realling silly. Maybe you should have looked it up before you stuck your foot in your mouth.

[Winetalk.com]

Apparently you've not been to many convenience stores in Miami..

when I go there, I speak broken Spanish and ALWAYS get what I need.


ummm... Big difference between visitors and illegal immigrants and I seriously doubt if any Americans are illegally immigrating to Japan or Croatia and being supported by those government.

In case you didn't know, Americans are not the only people on Earth that speak English. I doubt you knew that
;)

[Winetalk.com]

I make very few spelling mistakes. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=menial

Common Serge, that was realling silly. Maybe you should have looked it up before you stuck your foot in your mouth.


That was good, you wipped my ass fair and square on this one. Touche.

[Hammer]

In case you didn't know, Americans are not the only people on Earth that speak English. I doubt you knew that
;)
Of course they aren't, but are you saying that Japan has a huge problem with illegal British, Canadian and Australian immigrants?

You really are looking weak in this thread. Maybe you should stick to one you're competent to comment in.

[Peaches]

I know when I was with Sprint and applied for a transfer to Miami (please don't ask why - a mometary slip of logic) I was told I didn't qualify because I couldn't speak Spanish.

[Hammer]

This has been fun but the girls want to go swimming, so I'll check back in later.

[Winetalk.com]

Japan is 98.3% JAPANESE, it's not that easy sneak onto this Islands. They don't have problems with immigration.

As for looking weak in this thread,
don't let "menial" go into your head.

[Winetalk.com]

This has been fun but the girls want to go swimming, so I'll check back in later.


Don't let them do it, it's a thunderstorming in Boca.

[Winetalk.com]

I know when I was with Sprint and applied for a transfer to Miami (please don't ask why - a mometary slip of logic) I was told I didn't qualify because I couldn't speak Spanish.


Knowledge of more than one language goes a long way, Peaches....everywhere. You should have paid more attention to Spanish in a high school.
:)

[Peaches]

Knowledge of more than one language goes a long way, Peaches....everywhere. You should have paid more attention to Spanish in a high school.
:)
They teach shit foreign languages in HS. I took 2 years of French and 3 of Spanish and all I can do is conjugate verbs :(

I'm taking a "Practical Spanish" class in school next semester. I'm sure I'll learn more useful Spanish in 2 months than I did in 3 years in HS (which was in FL, even!).

[Rcourt64]

Knowledge of more than one language goes a long way, Peaches....everywhere. You should have paid more attention to Spanish in a high school.
:)

I speak,read & write in 3 languages. and it hasn't made me an extra dime anywhere.

[Winetalk.com]

They teach shit foreign languages in HS. I took 2 years of French and 3 of Spanish and all I can do is conjugate verbs :(

I'm taking a "Practical Spanish" class in school next semester. I'm sure I'll learn more useful Spanish in 2 months than I did in 3 years in HS (which was in FL, even!).


Peaches, as one who learned foreign language, I can say:
1) true about just school lessons
2) if you PRACTISED it, like my daughter does, you'd have less problems and more "stick in your head" practical language aplications.

[JR]

I speak,read & write in 3 languages. and it hasn't made me an extra dime anywhere.
you said in another thread you do porn as a free public service. if you were smart enough to work for red cross or peace corps, they would at least pay you a 400-500 dollar a month food allowance and give you a shitty apartment to live in.

[Rcourt64]

you said in another thread you do porn as a free public service. if you were smart enough to work for red cross or peace corps, they would at least pay you a 400-500 dollar a month food allowance and give you a shitty apartment to live in.

Been ther done that, I worked for the peace corps while I lived in S.A.
Did i enjoy it? NO. Was the money worth it? NO. was there a valued experieced leared? YES.
If I would have enjoyed it, I would still be living in a hut on a farm, with some indians, teaching them stuff.
For me its about the 1) popularity 2) money and 3) enjoying what I do.
If I can't bring all 3 together, well I'm wouldn't happy. And then I would say screw the adult industry, I'm outta here.

Its not about optaining the money to be happy.
It's about optaining the happiness while getting the money.

[el pres]

Of what? Keeping them or getting rid of them?

Getting rid of.

I know that here, the Eastern Europreans/Africans pick most of the produce,
and only 1 in 10 people on a building site are Spanish.

They work for less and work hard.

Spanish youth are mostly lazy bastards in Uni until they're 25, doing some usless degree that wont get them a job.. living at home with their parents.
The parents are happy their kids are in Uni and wouldn't let them pick fruit anyway..

Then bitch the imigrants are taking all the jobs when their pampered shit of a child cant get a job.

[Rolo]

I hate to be a cynic (HAHAHA), however every society in history have exploited cheap labour, and probably will until technology catches up, and make robots cheaper and more reliable than 3rd world workers. But until we reaches that George Orwell world of the future, then our lifestyle need cheap labour.

So if Mexicans do not want to work for $1 per hour, then the US should throw them out of the country, and replace them with workers from Africa. If Africans are not an option, then I´m affraid that the average US household will have to spend more and consume less.

Oh, the same goes for Europe, we have the same problems here - just here its the africans, arabs, asians, and east europeans that causes problems - maybe we can swap cheap workers... you know getting a new scenery when you drive thru the local ghetto might be good, well atleast until the robots are ready ;-))

[CDSmith]

Getting rid of.

I know that here, the Eastern Europreans/Africans pick most of the produce,
and only 1 in 10 people on a building site are Spanish.

They work for less and work hard.

Spanish youth are mostly lazy bastards in Uni until they're 25, doing some usless degree that wont get them a job.. living at home with their parents.
The parents are happy their kids are in Uni and wouldn't let them pick fruit anyway..

Then bitch the imigrants are taking all the jobs when their pampered shit of a child cant get a job.The US will have to invade Spain as well then. Can't have this language/labor problem spreading, right?

Pray Bush is not reading this.

[Hammer]

Don't let them do it, it's a thunderstorming in Boca.
Fortunately it was a beautful day in Orlando.

[Jace]

Fortunately it was a beautful day in Orlando.
it was kickass up here in Georgia too...80F and sunny all day

[Peaches]

it was kickass up here in Georgia too...80F and sunny all day
It was, as they say, a Chamber of Commerce Day :) The wild dogwoods, wisteria and wild azaleas are blooming up here in the hills. Mountain laurel is getting ready. I honestly believe there is no prettier place than the Atlanta area in the spring.

[Jace]

It was, as they say, a Chamber of Commerce Day :) The wild dogwoods, wisteria and wild azaleas are blooming up here in the hills. Mountain laurel is getting ready. I honestly believe there is no prettier place than the Atlanta area in the spring.

you got that right

we have like 6 different bushes and trees blooming in our yard right now, i am loving it

[PornoDoggy]

You know, the funny thing about this entire discussion is that is it profoundly American. The same conversation could have taken place in the 1840s - although obviously in a different forum. I suspect that a lot of the people harumphing the illegals today came from illegals - the main difference being, those illegals happen to be German, Irish, Italian, Polish, or from any of a dozen Slavik countries.

It's probably only been 50 years or so since Southern and Eastern Europeans were considered White, fer cryin' out loud. The first bitter controversies over bilingual education raged in cities like St. Louis and Milwaukee - a hundred years ago. The same thing raged over Spanish in the west at the same time, and into the 30s.

There have always been folks afraid of immigrants in America, at least since the 1830s. Some are just sad people scared of anything that ain't just like them. Some of them just have to have somebody to hate or be afraid of to make them feel better about their own sad, pathetic lives. Odd thing is, the fucking country seems to have survived the invasion du jour that was going to destroy our civilization.

When I was a kid I used to go to a candy store that sold local (St. Louis) weekly newspapers in Italian, German, and Polish. It was a city neighborhood - so, of course, the younger residents (my Dad's generation) bolted to a the safe, bland, boring 'burbs. The place got pretty bad for a long while, but it's made a comeback with a vengence in the last ten years.

Of course, some asswipes might get their tender sensibilities offended if they went there. Some of the signs in the stores aroudn there are in three or four languages. You can occasionally have to wait for a shopkeeper to get a younger relative who speaks English in addition to Arabic, Vietnamese, Thai, Spanish, or Croation.

The descendents of the fucking wops, the dirty kikes, the polacks, and the huns sit in the bars and coffee houses up there and bitch about the foreigners taking over their neighborhood, too.

[sarettah]

Just for the record. A mere 20 years ago, the same discussions took place.

The result of that was "immigration reform" (as they are seeking now) and pretty much a blanket amnesty for 2.8 million illegal immigrants.

Apparently that did not destroy the country.


Reagan's words and deeds regarding immigration were equally expansive. At a ceremony at Ellis Island in 1982, he spoke movingly of immigrants who "possessed a determination that with hard work and freedom, they would live a better life and their children even more so." As with trade, Reagan's record on immigration was mixed. He signed the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, which included stepped up border enforcement and sanctions against employers who knowingly hire illegal workers. But that legislation also legalized 2.8 million undocumented workers. More immigrants entered the United States legally under President Reagan's watch than under any previous U.S. president since Teddy Roosevelt.

Like President George W. Bush today, Reagan had the good sense and compassion to see illegal immigrants not as criminals but as human beings striving to build better lives through honest work. In a radio address in 1977, he noted that apples were rotting on trees in New England because no Americans were willing to pick them. "It makes one wonder about the illegal alien fuss. Are great numbers of our unemployed really victims of the illegal alien invasion or are those illegal tourists actually doing work our own people won't do?" Reagan asked. "One thing is certain in this hungry world; no regulation or law should be allowed if it results in crops rotting in the fields for lack of harvesters."

http://www.cato.org/dailys/06-24-04.html

[softball]

"Apparently that did not destroy the country."

Really? Look around and think about that for a minute. Were you better off then or now? BTW, I am not talking about finances.

[PornoDoggy]

I think Ronnie Ray-gunz did a lot of damage to the country, but Immigration didn't have a damn thing to do with it.

[softball]

I think Ronnie Ray-gunz did a lot of damage to the country, but Immigration didn't have a damn thing to do with it.
I gotta say that I made a shit pot of money because of Ronnie and Maggie T. God bless em. The eighties were freeking magic. Milk and honey. Rolex's, Patek phillipe's and hundred year old port. Beirut lines and DB's...
35K flats and 50K maisonettes. Skin two and Soho in the freeking rain. Shaftsbury avenue and fine, fine girls. Sloan rangers and Kings road. It was a time.

[CDSmith]

I gotta say that I made a shit pot of money because of Ronnie and Maggie T. God bless em. The eighties were freeking magic. Milk and honey. Rolex's, Patek phillipe's and hundred year old port. Beirut lines and DB's...
35K flats and 50K maisonettes. Skin two and Soho in the freeking rain. Shaftsbury avenue and fine, fine girls. Sloan rangers and Kings road. It was a time.No offense, but I must say your posts are a tad cloying at times.



http://www.thewinnipegpages.com/forum/uploads/post-2-1143394665.jpg

[JR]

cloying is a good word. i had to look that up.

damn my american education! dammit.

canada wins this round... but i'll be back!

oh yes, i'll be back.

[Hammer]

PornoDoggy, just like Serge you're attempting to argue a point with points that have no correlation. We are talking about illegal immigrants that only come to this country to make money but have no intentions of making this country their home. The immigrants you are talking about looked at America as a brave new world and were proud to live here. They also became naturalized citizens and paid taxes just like everone else.

Sure they brought their cultures here and I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is my government telling me that we must make schools bilingual and that stores must hang signs in more than one language and it's all for the ILLEGAL immigrants, not the ones that actually came here to live and work and become citizens.

Now, if you want to compare apples to apples, you should be talking about the immigrants that came here and ran the Indians onto reservations. Then you might actually have a point.

[Winetalk.com]

if you don't see correlation, it doesn't mean they aren't there.
As the good book says:
"Eyes they have but they can see not,
ears they have but they can hear not..."

Hammer, your fallacy is as old the Holy Bible.

[JoesHO]

I love tacos ! poor people like me can afford them and they are good.

[redneckroy]

Raymond (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000163/): 12:30 is lunch.
Charlie (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000129/): What do you want?
Raymond (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000163/): Wednesday is fish sticks. Green lime jello for dessert.
Charlie (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000129/): You want another apple juice?
Raymond (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000163/): No, orange soda. Uh oh, it's 12:31.

[PornoDoggy]

PornoDoggy, just like Serge you're attempting to argue a point with points that have no correlation. We are talking about illegal immigrants that only come to this country to make money but have no intentions of making this country their home. The immigrants you are talking about looked at America as a brave new world and were proud to live here. They also became naturalized citizens and paid taxes just like everone else.

Sure they brought their cultures here and I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is my government telling me that we must make schools bilingual and that stores must hang signs in more than one language and it's all for the ILLEGAL immigrants, not the ones that actually came here to live and work and become citizens.

Now, if you want to compare apples to apples, you should be talking about the immigrants that came here and ran the Indians onto reservations. Then you might actually have a point.
If you don't see the correlation you choose not to. You continue to presume that bilingual signs are strickly for the illegals - and I don't think that's the case. I think it speaks more to the bias with which you approach the issue than to the actual facts.

The majority of the illegals today want the same think my (paternal) krauthead great-great-grandparents did in the 1890s, and for that matter the same thing as my (maternal) Quaker ancestors did. My dad's parents went to public schools that were bilingual (German and English). My great-grandfather, who was a member of several German organizations, had hassles during World War I not unlike what some Muslims had after 9/11. He had travel restrictions placed on him within the city of St. Louis, even though he had at least one son "over there."

Whether you like it or not, this whole debate is deja vu all over again - and your opinions would make you a perfect candidate for the No-Nothing party, circa 1850.

Your comment about the immigrants that came here to commit genocide on the native people, and run the survivors into reservations, doesn't really make any sense. When you get right down to it, though, illegal immigration is merely a case of the Chicanos coming home to roost. The Southwest, where they enter, is ours only because we stole it from them. They seem to be intent on taking it back.

[Mike AI]

We are a nation of laws. Until we secure our borders the rest does not matter. We should not have an amnesty program. We need to also adjust our legal immigration policies.

Right now thanks to Ted Kennedy we have an immigration policy that is designed to fail!!

We used to take the best and brightest from around the world, and these people contributed to the economy. Now all we get is the poorest of the world.

Our immigration policy is designed to cripple this Country. I am sure Ted is happy.

[Winetalk.com]

Isn't it what Bishop is trying to do with Oprano?
;)

[Mike AI]

Isn't it what Bishop is trying to do with Oprano?
;)

Actually this does seem to be the policy Bishop and AEBN instituted for Oprano. I really do not know what their intentions were, they never consulted me.

[PornoDoggy]

We are a nation of laws. Until we secure our borders the rest does not matter. We should not have an amnesty program. We need to also adjust our legal immigration policies.

Right now thanks to Ted Kennedy we have an immigration policy that is designed to fail!!

We used to take the best and brightest from around the world, and these people contributed to the economy. Now all we get is the poorest of the world.

Our immigration policy is designed to cripple this Country. I am sure Ted is happy.
Speaking of know-nothings ...

There isn't a hell of a lot of difference between Ted Kennedy and John McCain on immigration - at least, there hasn't been. (Don't know what's going to happen as he begins to kiss the ass of the ultra-right in pursuit of '08). The current situation is just as much the responsibility of Republicans who are concerned with ensuring that donors have access to the cheap labor they want, and any thinking person knows it.

[Mike AI]

Speaking of know-nothings ...

There isn't a hell of a lot of difference between Ted Kennedy and John McCain on immigration - at least, there hasn't been. (Don't know what's going to happen as he begins to kiss the ass of the ultra-right in pursuit of '08). The current situation is just as much the responsibility of Republicans who are concerned with ensuring that donors have access to the cheap labor they want, and any thinking person knows it.

PD - I am talking about the changes in immigration policy Ted oversaw 20+ years ago. I am not talking about now.

Plus McCain is not Conservative, he is an opportunist. He will never be President.

[PornoDoggy]

Bullshit.

Last time I checked, Ted Kennedy was only one of one hundred Senators, even twenty years ago. If Reagan hadn't wanted that bill passed it would have never cleared the House - Tip O'Neil would have seen to it.

[sarettah]

And a lot of what was in the '86 bill was changed in '96, '98 and '04

[Hammer]

Bilingual signs in Florida have nothing to do with legal immigrants or else they'd be in many languages besides just English and Spanish. Florida's econonomy relies on tourists but I don't see any German or French signs in Target... only Spanish. I also don't hear about too many non-Mexican, Cuban or Haitian immigrants being rounded up and shipped home either.

btw. My father is French Canadian and my mother is German and I was born in Belgium. We all are American citizens though. I tell you that lest you think my opinions are somehow based on the belief that my ancestors are from America which they wouldn't be unless they were American Indian.

As for why my comment about the immigrants that took over America from the rightful inhabitants, I don't see how that isn't applicable to your points. They came here from other countries, forced their way of life on the people that lived here. They refused to learn the language or try to fit in, but instead brought their own cultures and turned this country into what they had left. How is that different than immigrants that move to Miami and set up their own little Cuba, refuse to learn the language and are currently spreading?

Not to mention all the legal Asians that are moving here, which actually worries me far more than the Mexican or Cubans. One day in the future I'm afraid we'll be answering to the Chinese.

[Winetalk.com]

Hammer is worried...that disturbs me a lot.

[Hammer]

Hammer is worried...that disturbs me a lot.
You should be worried too, unless you like communism.

[Winetalk.com]

May I cuddle you to ease your worries?

[Hammer]

May I cuddle you to ease your worries?
No thanks, I've got my wife for that.

[sarettah]

Bilingual signs in Florida have nothing to do with legal immigrants or else they'd be in many languages besides just English and Spanish. Florida's econonomy relies on tourists but I don't see any German or French signs in Target...

Go to Fort Myers. Most stores have a sign that states they speak english and german. Hardly any spanish signs there at all.

Btw, at the Grand Canyon, most signs there are in English, French and German.

[Winetalk.com]

No thanks, I've got my wife for that.


"there are two things in this world - results and everything else!"

You are still worried and that upsets me. I think I can cuddle you better than your wife.

[Hammer]

You are still worried and that upsets me. I think I can cuddle you better than your wife.
It warms my cockles to know that you're concerned, but unless you have breasts and a vagina, the likelihood of us ever cuddling is about the same as the likelihood that I'll ever say 'yes sir' to a Chinaman.

[PornoDoggy]

Dude - you are entitled to think anything that makes you feel comfortable. All I am trying to point out is that your feelings are by no means unique, or nothing remotely like new. The same sort of fears have been going on since this country was fifty years old, and will continue long after you and me are dead and buried. Bigots have been an integral part of this country for a long time, and the likelyhood that that sort of inferior subspecies will die out any time soon is regretably small.

[Winetalk.com]

It warms my cockles to know that you're concerned, but unless you have breasts and a vagina, the likelihood of us ever cuddling is about the same as the likelihood that I'll ever say 'yes sir' to a Chinaman.


If the made guy, in charge of the entire NY construction racket could suck cock, EVERYBODY is corruptable and you are not exception. I know your post says very soft NO, but I interpret it as "maybe".

[Winetalk.com]

Dude - you are entitled to think anything that makes you feel comfortable.

and that includes thinking about cuddling with me.

[Hammer]

Dude - you are entitled to think anything that makes you feel comfortable. All I am trying to point out is that your feelings are by no means unique, or nothing remotely like new. The same sort of fears have been going on since this country was fifty years old, and will continue long after you and me are dead and buried.
I understand what you're pointing out and I'm just enjoying the lively debate. I find conversations that stimulate thought, interesting and I've had my opinions changed many times in the past on issues I felt strongly about.

[Winetalk.com]

I find conversations that stimulate thought, interesting and I've had my opinions changed many times in the past on issues I felt strongly about.


I am glad you are stimilated by our conversation and keep an open mind about cuddling.

[sarettah]

Dude - you are entitled to think anything that makes you feel comfortable. All I am trying to point out is that your feelings are by no means unique, or nothing remotely like new. The same sort of fears have been going on since this country was fifty years old, and will continue long after you and me are dead and buried. Bigots have been an integral part of this country for a long time, and the likelyhood that that sort of inferior subspecies will die out any time soon is regretably small.


Actually, the first attempt to bring federal contol to immigration was 1790, 2 years after the constitution was ratified:

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/legishist/436.htm

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/legishist/index.htm

[Hammer]

I am glad you are stimilated by our conversation and keep an open mind about cuddling.
I try to keep an open mind about most things, although I'll never drink French wine with sushi.

[Winetalk.com]

I try to keep an open mind about most things, although I'll never drink French wine with sushi.


This is a HUGE mistakes...
French make an excelelnt WHITES which would go well with sushi. I wouldn't mind having some aged red Burgs with sushi as well.

[Hammer]

This is a HUGE mistakes...
French make an excelelnt WHITES which would go well with sushi. I wouldn't mind having some aged red Burgs with sushi as well.
When I have sushi, I like to go Japanese all the way and either drink saki, Japanese beer or tea, although I'm sure some French wines go very well with sushi. I imagine there are some American and Australian wines that go well too.

[Sammy]

This is a HUGE mistakes...
French make an excelelnt WHITES which would go well with sushi. I wouldn't mind having some aged red Burgs with sushi as well.

PLEASE NO TALK OF SUSHI AND WINE.

Last time that happened, I had police over with guns pointed at my head!!!

[CDSmith]

Here are some arguments presented by various Americans on other sites:

This is a simple issue. Americans can not just go an become instant residents in another country. At best we can get a visa but often it is limited to X amount of days per year we can even stay in some places.
Why should this be any different for the Mexicans? If you are not legal, you are ILLEGAL and should not be allowed to stay.
Why make it easier? If they can't not be bothered to follow the rules on getting into the country what other rules won't they be bothered with? I have no problem if somebody wants to come here in the right way and make an honest living for themselves though.
"Why make it easier?" - Because it's going to happen. If you want to control it, you have to make it easier for workers to enter the country legally. Because where you have economic disparity to this degree unregulated immigration will happen. The system is complicated and expensive. As long as it's easier to hop the fence and take your chances that's what people will do.

Educate yourselves about why this is happening.
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/border/nogales.html
http://www.mennoweekly.org/FEB/02-09-04/Nogales02-09.html
http://www.mennoweekly.org/FEB/02-09-04/nogalesphotos02-09.html
I am not anti-immigrant; I am all for people who want to enter the country legally. My family came over from Spain many years ago. My relatives did it legally. That meant learning English and being a part of the culture. They didn’t sneak over the border in the middle of the night and then run into the streets demanding this, that and the other. Legal immigrants who enter through the proper channels by and large do come here to make society a better place.

Illegal immigrants do not come here to make this country a better place or to contribute to our society. They come here to suck up our resources, housing, handout programs, food and jobs and they ship the fruits of their labor back across the border. Illegal immigrants do not get immunized properly before crossing, this means that they bring disease and sickness with them.

And to fuck with their sad stories. I've got a few of those myself and they don’t entitle me to break the law to fill my needs, wants or desires. I cant just march into Canada or China or Russia or any other country and declare myself a citizen. Why should other people be able to do the same here?

Don’t post a link to a liberal California college and two to a newspaper for religious fruitcakes and tell me that’s why I should let it happen. The liberals have gotten this country into a huge fucking mess with their preaching tolerance and peace and unity bullshit its incredible. And the GOP is equally responsible for the mess because they keep wanting to spend every dime they can get a hold of.

So if you think that they should be allowed to come in here and do whatever they want and we should sit back and let them, well then fuck you because you are not an American and you are the one who doesn’t deserve to be here anymore.

I don't see this issue as something that a lot of Americans are just going to "accept" and let slide simply because it's been happening for centuries.

Speaking purely as a Canadian, and that encompasses the fact that we up here have our own history of language issues plus albeit much smaller illegal immigration problem, I will say this: I would love to see a workable solution in the USA where thoese illegals who are not raping your system for all it's worth be given a bit of a break. Not a free pass, but a new avenue to gain the citizenship they desperately seek.

As for the rest, well...Call me crazy but I'm not big on people just being able to walk into my country and live off our tax dollars. That's of course my first reaction, I'm well aware that there are many facets to this argument.

[PornoDoggy]

Ah, but you see I think that the stories of them "living off our tax dollars" are exaggerated to give some folks the vapors.

The way to stop illegal immigration is to nail the corporate sponsors of it. Busting a pallet outfit makes for good PR, but indicates that they are still unwilling to go after the contractors, the meat-packing industry, and the other major employers who depend on them.

[Peaches]

Ah, but you see I think that the stories of them "living off our tax dollars" are exaggerated to give some folks the vapors.

The way to stop illegal immigration is to nail the corporate sponsors of it. Busting a pallet outfit makes for good PR, but indicates that they are still unwilling to go after the contractors, the meat-packing industry, and the other major employers who depend on them.
Someone mark today down, I agree with PD :scratchin

[PornoDoggy]

Someone mark today down, I agree with PD :scratchin
>PD quickly and quietly checks what he posted to see if he made a serious mistake.<

:D

[Peaches]

>PD quickly and quietly checks what he posted to see if he made a serious mistake.<

:D
Fokker! ;)

[CDSmith]

The way to stop illegal immigration is to nail the corporate sponsors of it. Busting a pallet outfit makes for good PR, but indicates that they are still unwilling to go after the contractors, the meat-packing industry, and the other major employers who depend on them.

Myself, yourself, and Peaches are all in agreement.

Are the planets aligning as well?

[Rcourt64]

Myself, yourself, and Peaches are all in agreement.

Are the planets aligning as well?

Oh My...The Apocalypse draws closer :blowup01:

[PornoDoggy]

Myself, yourself, and Peaches are all in agreement.

Are the planets aligning as well?
If Mike AI comes in here and agrees too, I may have to commit myself to a re-education camp ... :(

[Winetalk.com]

PLEASE NO TALK OF SUSHI AND WINE.

Last time that happened, I had police over with guns pointed at my head!!!


ok, how about we talk big boobs and wine instead?
;)

[softball]

This is a HUGE mistakes...
French make an excelelnt WHITES which would go well with sushi. I wouldn't mind having some aged red Burgs with sushi as well.

Really? The French make white wine? Damn when did that start? You mean Chablis isn't Californian and doesn't always come with a screw top and a handle? You learn something new every day around here. Thanks Serge. You know how much respect I have for your opinions on anything to do with fine living and good taste.

[redneckroy]

rhetorical why have you got a picture of Laurence Connors wearing a black wig as your avatar?

[softball]

.

[softball]

.

[softball]

What was I thinking? Why bother?

[CDSmith]

rhetorical why have you got a picture of Laurence Connors wearing a black wig as your avatar?http://members.shaw.ca/billy1-99/pics/bwaha.jpg


I mean... *cough*... shit that caught me offguard.:yowsa:

[PornoDoggy]

.
Could be the best post I've ever read of yours.

[peon]

rhetorical why have you got a picture of Laurence Connors wearing a black wig as your avatar?

Oh shit bro, I thought it was Howard Stern with lipstick on!!! LOL!!!!

[Winetalk.com]

People, shame on you! Don't be jelous over his money producing wife and his glorious living off 2000 uniques a day.

His shift at McD starts at 9 am, so don't expect any responces till late afternoon PT.

[softball]

People, shame on you! Don't be jelous over his money producing wife and his glorious living off 2000 uniques a day.

His shift at McD starts at 9 am, so don't expect any responces till late afternoon PT.
I suppose you will while away the hours poring over brochures for your next old guy package tour. You know making sure the bus is comfortable and the tips are included. Hey serge, I hear there are some bargains to Dahab. Act quickly.