Serge, better not move back to New Jersey

[Mike AI]

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2006/Bills/A1500/1327_I1.HTM

I guess the First Amendment still bothers some people.

Fucking donkey fucking yankee thieving politicians*





































* just trying to become the test case.

[Biggy]

i like the idea. you are still protected by freedom of speech, you just cant post anonymously. the 1st amendment grants free speech without fear of persecution or recourse, you don't need anonymity because of it. also, the info doesnt need to be shared amongst the users, its for the owners, or else the owners could be liable for someones statement.

they are addressing a serious problem. via the internet, anonymous people can take shots at companies, defame them, and not face prosecution if they cannot be identified with 100% certainty. people hide behind message boards. the bottom line is.. if you defame a company, you better have proof that in fact what you are saying is truthful. how would it be if journalists could write anonymous articles and take shots at companies without the newspapers themselves being liablie.

this may not seem like that big of a problem now, but it will be.. give it 10 years. i like the idea, it will erase a lot of the stupidity, and people will have to behave like they would in real life as if they could be connected back to their username. you can still say whatever you want, there will be no recourse, but should you use your posting privileges to defame or make accusatory statements about a company, the owner is either going to ensure you have proof, or take it down or else they will be liable.

[Mike AI]

While I agree anonymous posts are cowardly, many of the best social commentary written by our founding fathers was done anonymously. Ben Franklin did this all the time.

[Mike AI]

For the record Biggy, what is your full name? I do not know you by anything other then Biggy.

[PornoDoggy]

I am with Mike on this one.

[not so sure about the Yankee part, but ...]

[Biggy]

For the record Biggy, what is your full name? I do not know you by anything other then Biggy.

you dont need to know my info, only the owners. and joesho knows me very well and i would have no problem divulging my info to them. posting it publicly on a board for everyone to view is not something i invite, and should someone else post it for me, this new law will help me track them down and possibly see what legal recourse i can take against them, if any. this law isnt a free-for-all of personal information, it makes the owners liable. the owners need the info, and they should be smart enough to keep that info protected and private. if this may seem wishful thinking, then dont post or find a message board that you feel is professional enough to safeguard personal info. should none exist, create your own board, or refrain from posting, but that will only affect the paranoid and the ones who have skeletons in the closet.

[Mike AI]

you dont need to know my info, only the owners. and joesho knows me very well and i would have no problem divulging my info to them. posting it publicly on a board for everyone to view is not something i invite, and should someone else post it for me, this new law will help me track them down and possibly see what legal recourse i can take against them, if any.



ahhhh ok. Just checking.

[Biggy]

ahhhh ok. Just checking.

i sense the liberal in you, hippie. go hug some trees.

[JoesHO]

Mike is a born again liberal, ( you know the hypocritical type )

This is an excellent idea BTW in my opinion.

and to clarify , what biggy is saying is that if you are gonna be anon that is fine, but if you cross the line and slander/libel someone then you will be held accountable and should be .

so unmless you have a case against iggy Mike, then asking him his personal info is not warrented just to find out .

if he said something like MikeAI did (******xyzzzxyzz...*******)
and it was harmful to you, then you should be allowed to find out who said it .

can you bring us to more current examples than Benjamin franklin ?

[Biggy]

Mike is a born again liberal, ( you know the hypocritical type )

This is an excellent idea BTW in my opinion.

and to clarify , what biggy is saying is that if you are gonna be anon that is fine, but if you cross the line and slander/libel someone then you will be held accountable and should be .

so unmless you have a case against iggy Mike, then asking him his personal info is not warrented just to find out .

if he said something like MikeAI did (******xyzzzxyzz...*******)
and it was harmful to you, then you should be allowed to find out who said it .

can you bring us to more current examples than Benjamin franklin ?

yup, and you can still say a company sucks.. thats an opinionated statement.. opinions are protected by the 1st amendment. its when you make factual accusatory statements which arent true that a problem occurs.

[JoesHO]

yup, and you can still say a company sucks.. thats an opinionated statement.. opinions are protected by the 1st amendment. its when you make factual accusatory statements which arent true that a problem occurs.


Mike is excellent with opinions, ( it is in the facts department he is a little slacking )

[Biggy]

Patriot Act - OK
Internet Posting Act - INVASION OF PRIVACY

http://www.cabfares.com/flipflop.jpg

[Mike AI]

1) someone calling me a shithead
2) someone plotting to behead me

Hmmmm I guess I am a flip flopper. You guys caught me again!!

[Biggy]

1) someone calling me a shithead
2) someone plotting to behead me

Hmmmm I guess I am a flip flopper. You guys caught me again!!

we're just telling it how it is :) i have no ill feelings towards you, in fact, i started transferring some of my domains over to directnic since so many people said positive things about your service. this is just friendly political talk imo - please just say you see the irony...

[PornoDoggy]

Uhhh ... while nothing would please me more than to believe that the scales have fallen from Mike's eyes and he has come to see the evil of his reactionary ways, there is absolutely NOTHING particularly "liberal" about defending civil liberties. Actual conservatives (as opposed to the neo-cons and other pseudofacists) are generally as concerned with them as lefties - and are sometimes, at least, more consistent about it.

I don't think a law like this will result in a knock on the door from a process server because somebody posts that Pepsi sucks (and it does - Coke rules). I do think that it open the door to abuse by companies overly-eager to protect their reputation or to squelch people from telling unpleasant truths.

[PornoDoggy]

This is an excellent idea BTW in my opinion.

So - you, as an owner of Oprano, think that you should be accountable for my actions on your board?

[Biggy]

Uhhh ... while nothing would please me more than to believe that the scales have fallen from Mike's eyes and he has come to see the evil of his reactionary ways, there is absolutely NOTHING particularly "liberal" about defending civil liberties. Actual conservatives (as opposed to the neo-cons and other pseudofacists) are generally as concerned with them as lefties - and are sometimes, at least, more consistent about it.

I don't think a law like this will result in a knock on the door from a process server because somebody posts that Pepsi sucks (and it does - Coke rules). I do think that it open the door to abuse by companies overly-eager to protect their reputation or to squelch people from telling unpleasant truths.

1. "there is absolutely NOTHING particularly "liberal" about defending civil liberties."

i agree. its a shame many republicans speak out against the patriot act and other laws which take away civil liberties by calling their opponents liberals and painting them as hippies. my comment above was a play on the tactics they use, a sarcastic one at that to show the errr of their ways. and isnt it that much more effective when you can use their same tactics against them when the time is right.


2. "I do think that it open the door to abuse by companies overly-eager to protect their reputation or to squelch people from telling unpleasant truths."

I disagree and I disagree with the knowledge of knowing how most boards are run, and some of these boards happen to be the biggest ones around. With that said, those boards are run as a free-for-all, i highly doubt they will seriously alter the ways they moderate after this law, past behavior predicts future behavior. the internet should be held to the same accountability as other offline press and medias.

[Mike AI]

we're just telling it how it is :) i have no ill feelings towards you, in fact, i started transferring some of my domains over to directnic since so many people said positive things about your service. this is just friendly political talk imo - please just say you see the irony...


Biggy, I never take anything on boards personally, especially with politics. That is what makes this country great is we can debate politics and we don't have to blow up a mosque or a bus to make our point.

On the boards I am much looser with my opinions for effect, and debating purposes.

I think PD understands me well. I am a real Conservative. Not a neo-con. I did/do have troubles with the Patriot Act. I think the solution would have been to disallow any evidence gathered from the patriot act to be used for any non-terrorist crimes - the evidence should be considered tainted and illegal for anything but foreign terrorist attacks.

I am afraid of big, interventionalist government.

Biggy thanks for your business at directNIC. If you ever have problems and need a speedy reply you know how to get in touch with me.

[JoesHO]

So - you, as an owner of Oprano, think that you should be accountable for my actions on your board?


yes I do. as I think it is irresponsible to allow outright slander/libel

if someone said pornodoggys progam coul be shaving . that is board talk and all have a chance to comment on it .

if someone said pornodoggy is thief and steals my money ( then I think there should be a fact based to allow that to stay present)

The question and something that I would find problematic is who deicdes if it is fact or not ???

I think if someone calls someon a child molestor for example that it should not be allowed on the board. if someon says someone has a little dick and cant get a hard on then I think that is different.

at the end of the day though the probl;em is not a cencorship problem, I think it has more to do with good judgment and system abuse, people constantly use the interent for bad reasons and to slander products or people without cause.

I think we need legislation of some sort ( just as we have libel and slander laws) and laws prohibiting people from yelling fire in an open building or joking about a bomb in their pants on an airplne for example.

The internet is not some automatic hiding place that should allow for any different treatment than one would be held responsible for in real life.

[gonzo]

So - you, as an owner of Oprano, think that you should be accountable for my actions on your board?

Joe might think so but I dont.

[gonzo]

I think we need legislation of some sort ( just as we have libel and slander laws) and laws prohibiting people from yelling fire in an open building or joking about a bomb in their pants on an airplne for example.

DOS TIP -
Libel and slander laws already apply to the internet.

[Biggy]

So - you, as an owner of Oprano, think that you should be accountable for my actions on your board?

forum owners should be held responsible, because doing nothing helps facilitate the wrong doing. the forum owner is actually in a situation where they BENEFIT from libel and slander. when someone seriously slanders a company, it is certain to get a lot of attention, the drama increases threadviews, pageviews, etc. theres motivation for them to actually leave it there, even if they know its not truthful.

forum owners cannot sit back and idly watch as people committ crimes. ignorance is not defense. they provide an outlet for any person to communicate with many people, which is a very powerful and beneficial tool, but in certain situations and the specific situation this law addresses, it can be abused.

the law would make forum owners act in a certain way should someone libel a company, they would have the added responsibility of ensuring its truthful. gonzo is right, the laws do apply to the internet, however they are hard to enforce which is what this law addresses

theres one flaw i see to all of this which hasn't been brought up, and thats mikeai's fear of a big, interventionalist gov't. any time info is collected, you have to be wary that the gov't we have in place may use it for whatever they deem necessary which is scary. they have already tried manipulating and modifying laws and actions to do just this (See google and the gov't attempting to collect info on peoples search behavior). personal information is precious, but this flaw is one you cannot stop. all you can do is go out and elect the right people who won't abuse the power (good luck).

other than that, this law is great. people may not see it as a big problem now, but in the future i anticipate this will be a huge problem.

[Biggy]

i want to relate a personal story to all of this, one where this is the first time im publicly stating these facts. i manage the melissa midwest affiliate program, not sure if many people here knew that.

a few months ago, someone was ripping off our content and using melissa in advertisiements for their live cam/chat affiliate program. we sent them a nice email to remove it, your standard email where most people cooperate or ignore it until we contact their host. But not this time, this time we got back a very interesting response. They sent us back an email claiming melissa works for them and they had an agreement with her. how laughable that is. we created a thread on the biggest adult webmaster board "so and so company is a bunch of thieving content scammers." this program buys ad space on webmaster boards and exhibits at major shows, although they are not a huge company. what we posted was 100% truthful, and we had a fucked up email from them to prove it. they then responded publicly and eventually apologized, made some bullshit claims about how our photos aren't copyrighted and how they can use them, but nonetheless agreed to take it down and apologized. this is where the story gets interesting..

in the background of all this, they then emailed the owner of the board demanding to take our thread down, that they were paid sponsors of the board and some of their webmaster shows. they responded nicely and said they wouldnt, that we have provided sufficient evidence that backed up our claims. Later in that thread, some new usernames surfaced bashing us, calling melissa all sorts of names and doing whatever they could to defame us and have it sound realistic - personal insults and whatnot. A little ip referencing, and guess what - the ips of the new usernames matched the ips of the email sent to the board by the program and the username where they apologized in public on the board.

this is not an isolated incident, and will be a problem into the future as the internet expands and as message boards expands. it clearly is a problem already claimed by many. lets not forget all the forums out there that rip off people's content, trade passwords, credit card information, and all the other illegal activity which message boards help facilitate. this a law i feel pretty strongly for, the benefits outweigh the costs IMO. people will need to think twice about what they post when they make accusatory statements. if you experience downtime with a host, complaining about it will be fine. if sales suck with a sponsor, that as well. this law wont eliminate any of that.

[Sin]

if someone said pornodoggy is thief and steals my money ( then I think there should be a fact based to allow that to stay present)

The question and something that I would find problematic is who deicdes if it is fact or not ???

We actually had an issue -exactly- like that (quite literally) on another board that I visit, not too long ago.

A board member somehow conned a rather well known & respected member of the industry, out of 1k. We held a photoshop contest to "Put ____ behind bars!" and the admins let the contest run,...and run... and run... for quite a few days, and then they closed the thread & we weren't allowed to actually finish the contest.

Some great photochops in there though.

[gonzo]

i want to relate a personal story to all of this, one where this is the first time im publicly stating these facts. i manage the melissa midwest affiliate program, not sure if many people here knew that.

a few months ago, someone was ripping off our content and using melissa in advertisiements for their live cam/chat affiliate program. we sent them a nice email to remove it, your standard email where most people cooperate or ignore it until we contact their host. But not this time, this time we got back a very interesting response. They sent us back an email claiming melissa works for them and they had an agreement with her. how laughable that is. we created a thread on the biggest adult webmaster board "so and so company is a bunch of thieving content scammers." this program buys ad space on webmaster boards and exhibits at major shows, although they are not a huge company. what we posted was 100% truthful, and we had a fucked up email from them to prove it. they then responded publicly and eventually apologized, made some bullshit claims about how our photos aren't copyrighted and how they can use them, but nonetheless agreed to take it down and apologized. this is where the story gets interesting..

in the background of all this, they then emailed the owner of the board demanding to take our thread down, that they were paid sponsors of the board and some of their webmaster shows. they responded nicely and said they wouldnt, that we have provided sufficient evidence that backed up our claims. Later in that thread, some new usernames surfaced bashing us, calling melissa all sorts of names and doing whatever they could to defame us and have it sound realistic - personal insults and whatnot. A little ip referencing, and guess what - the ips of the new usernames matched the ips of the email sent to the board by the program and the username where they apologized in public on the board.

this is not an isolated incident, and will be a problem into the future as the internet expands and as message boards expands. it clearly is a problem already claimed by many. lets not forget all the forums out there that rip off people's content, trade passwords, credit card information, and all the other illegal activity which message boards help facilitate. this a law i feel pretty strongly for, the benefits outweigh the costs IMO. people will need to think twice about what they post when they make accusatory statements. if you experience downtime with a host, complaining about it will be fine. if sales suck with a sponsor, that as well. this law wont eliminate any of that.

You have just validated Joe's consipracy theory of misinformation.

BTW I remember that thread at the Zoo. They both looked like what they were ... scammers and thieves.

[Mike AI]

If you guys cannot handle the heat, you should stay out of the kitchen.

Real life is about dealing with issues like this day in and day out. This is only the tip of the iceberg. The bottom line is people who can over come, and effectively handle problems like this are the ones who become successful. Only the weak, and those who cannot compete effectively seek government intervention.

It is amusing how some people are always looking for a Nanny to help them out.

Stop crying girls, pull up your knickers and compete on your own.

[Mike AI]

Gonzo, you are right on the money on this one.

Free Markets, Free Minds!!