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MorganGrayson
12-20-2005, 08:03 PM
HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) - In one of the biggest courtroom clashes between faith and evolution since the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial, a federal judge barred a Pennsylvania public school district Tuesday from teaching "intelligent design" in biology class, saying the concept is creationism in disguise.

U.S. District Judge John E. Jones delivered a stinging attack on the Dover Area School Board, saying its first-in-the-nation decision in October 2004 to insert intelligent design into the science curriculum violated the constitutional separation of church and state.

The ruling was a major setback to the intelligent design movement, which is also waging battles in Georgia and Kansas. Intelligent design holds that living organisms are so complex that they must have been created by some kind of higher force.

Jones decried the "breathtaking inanity" of the Dover policy and accused several board members of lying to conceal their true motive, which he said was to promote religion. (I *like* this guy!!)

A six-week trial over the issue yielded "overwhelming evidence" establishing that intelligent design "is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory," said Jones, a Republican and a churchgoer appointed to the federal bench three years ago.

The school system said it will probably not appeal the ruling, because several members who backed intelligent design were ousted in November's elections and replaced with a new slate opposed to the policy. During the trial, the board argued that it was trying improve science education by exposing students to alternatives to Charles Darwin's theory of evolution and natural selection.

The policy required students to hear a statement about intelligent design before ninth-grade lessons on evolution. The statement said Darwin's theory is "not a fact" and has inexplicable "gaps." It referred students to an intelligent-design textbook, "Of Pandas and People."

But the judge said: "We find that the secular purposes claimed by the board amount to a pretext for the board's real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom."

In 1987, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that states cannot require public schools to balance evolution lessons by teaching creationism.

Eric Rothschild, an attorney for the families who challenged the policy, called the ruling "a real vindication for the parents who had the courage to stand up and say there was something wrong in their school district."

Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel of the Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, Mich., which represented the school district and describes its mission as defending the religious freedom of Christians, said the ruling appeared to be "an ad hominem attack on scientists who happen to believe in God." (Einstein believed in God. He just wasn't an asshole about it. He also believed in science.)

It was the latest chapter in a debate over the teaching of evolution dating back to the Scopes trial, in which Tennessee biology teacher John T. Scopes was fined $100 for violating a state law against teaching evolution.

Earlier this month, a federal appeals court in Georgia heard arguments over whether a suburban Atlanta school district had the right to put stickers on biology textbooks describing evolution as a theory, not fact. A federal judge last January ordered the stickers removed.

In November, state education officials in Kansas adopted new classroom science standards that call the theory of evolution into question.

President Bush also weighed in on the issue of intelligent design recently, saying schools should present the concept when teaching about the origins of life.

In his ruling, Jones said that while intelligent design, or ID, arguments "may be true, a proposition on which the court takes no position, ID is not science." Among other things, the judge said intelligent design "violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation"; it relies on "flawed and illogical" arguments; and its attacks on evolution "have been refuted by the scientific community."

"The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources," he wrote. The judge also said: "It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy." (Interesting definition of the word "ironic." I think His Honor was being subtle.)

Former school board member William Buckingham, who advanced the policy, said from his new home in Mount Airy, N.C., that he still feels the board did the right thing.

"I'm still waiting for a judge or anyone to show me anywhere in the Constitution where there's a separation of church and state," he said. "We didn't lose; we were robbed." (OK, Spanky, I'll tell you. December 15, 1791, "Ammendment I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." In other words, doofus, you can practice your own religion to your heart's content...HOWEVER...Congress, i.e. the lawmakers, i.e. the government, can NOT establish one. That clear it up for ya?)

The controversy divided Dover and surrounding Dover Township, a rural area of nearly 20,000 residents about 20 miles south of Harrisburg. It galvanized voters in the Nov. 8 school board election to oust several members who supported the policy.

The new school board president, Bernadette Reinking, said the board intends to remove intelligent design from the science curriculum and place it in an elective social studies class. "As far as I can tell you, there is no intent to appeal," she said. (She's got herself a nice "slippery slope" going here. It's still a public school and it's still teaching religion.)

Dravyk
12-21-2005, 02:35 AM
Sooo many things one could comment on from that.... Let me go with the Bush thing. http://oprano.com/msgboard/images/smilies/smile.gif

President Bush also weighed in on the issue of intelligent design recently, saying schools should present the concept when teaching about the origins of life. This guy is obviously against the seperation of church and state.

Bush last week it was leaked, with proof, said the Constitution was a piece of toliet paper.

He's broken international treaties that were signed by administrations before him.

Exactly what the fuck is this "leader", who swore an oath to defend a certian "piece of toilet" paper, swore it on the only thing he supposedly believe in, a Bible ...

I dunno. In short, is this cocksucker good for anything other than being the stuffing in a turkey I would not eat?

http://oprano.com/msgboard/images/smilies/banghead.gif

PornoDoggy
12-21-2005, 03:54 AM
Stuffing Bush in a turkey ... isn't that redundant?

Dravyk
12-21-2005, 04:50 AM
Stuffing Bush in a turkey ... isn't that redundant? And ironic. :yowsa:

Winetalk.com
12-21-2005, 06:50 AM
I have only ONE problem with Inteligent Design...
Intelligent design holds that living organisms are so complex that they must have been created by some kind of higher force.


Who the heck have created the "higher force", which is allegedly even MORE complex??????

MorganGrayson
12-21-2005, 11:01 AM
I have only ONE problem with Inteligent Design...
Intelligent design holds that living organisms are so complex that they must have been created by some kind of higher force.


Who the heck have created the "higher force", which is allegedly even MORE complex??????

Now, now, Serge...you're asking "those" questions again. :)
The same, of course, can be said for "the Big Bang." What went "bang" and why????

I'll never have this conversation, but part of me would love to:
Christian: "Do you believe in 'intelligent design'?"
Me: "Yes."
Christian: "So you think it should be taught in schools?"
Me: "Oh, most assuredly not."
Christian: "But...but...aren't you a Christian?"
Me: "Nope. Wanna guess again?"
Christian: *silence*
Me: "Let me help you out here. I'm a Wiccan, or pagan to you, and I do in fact believe in 'intelligent design.' I believe that the way humans were designed was by a process called 'evolution,' also known as 'natural selection.' That strikes me as being very intelligent indeed, not to mention fun to watch. I have faith out the wazoo, religious beliefs by the bunches...and if you tried teaching any of MY religious beliefs in public schools I'd be the first manning the picket lines. It isn't that I don't like *your* religious beliefs - althought, admittedly, I don't - I don't believe ANYBODY'S religious beliefs should be taught in public schools. School is for the hard sciences. Our country is going down the tubes because the 'good scientists' are all coming out of Asia now and we've lost our edge. We sure as hell don't need this silliness. I managed to get my religious ducks in a row at home, you do the same. Oh. And by the way: Merry Christmas, Blessed Yule, Happy Hanukkah and I'm bringing the sweet potato pie on Kwanza. Rock on."

Winetalk.com
12-21-2005, 12:26 PM
Now, now, Serge...you're asking "those" questions again. :)
The same, of course, can be said for "the Big Bang." What went "bang" and why????


Answer #1 - What went "bang"?

The particles which were floating freely in outer space.

Answer #2 - why????
It went bang because it could no longer float in the space,
kinda like gasoline goes bang when condensed and spark occurs.
In case you ask who flicked the spark, the answer is - static electricity.

Any more tough questions?

MorganGrayson
12-21-2005, 01:02 PM
Answer #1 - What went "bang"?

The particles which were floating freely in outer space.

Answer #2 - why????
It went bang because it could no longer float in the space,
kinda like gasoline goes bang when condensed and spark occurs.
In case you ask who flicked the spark, the answer is - static electricity.

Any more tough questions?

Yes.

"Particles" of what and where did they come from before somebody decided to pet the cat and create a static charge? :)

Winetalk.com
12-21-2005, 01:11 PM
Morgan, if I knew where the particles came from, would I be posting on Oprano?

THIS question I have no answer to and the "GOD" theory doesn't answer it either, as there is no answer to who the heck have created "GOD"?

MorganGrayson
12-21-2005, 01:33 PM
Morgan, if I knew where the particles came from, would I be posting on Oprano?

THIS question I have no answer to and the "GOD" theory doesn't answer it either, as there is no answer to who the heck have created "GOD"?

You're getting points for that first line! :yowsa:

The "God Theory" has the "always was" clause in it, which frankly, I'm comfortable with. I don't understand it, but I don't understand gravity, either. I just know that if I trip I'm falling down.

I'm actually quite comfortable over here in my chair with "who the fuck knows?" as an answer to some of Life's Larger Questions. So many people start to twitch when confronted with something they can't explain. They have to have Answers. They have to have Proof.

Frankly, I can't think of a worse waste of time than trying to figure out where the Universe came from. It's here. That's enough. I'm much more concerned about where we're headed, as a species and as a planet. And not in 10,000 years, either. More like...later this afternoon. Or tomorrow at the latest.

We've become a species with wiz bang technology, but the news this morning was occupied with the height of the surf in the ocean and how many extra lifeguards are on duty because stupid people stand too close to it and end up sucked in and drowning. I like to think of it as a "Darwin Was Right" news feature.

Robin
12-21-2005, 01:49 PM
What is amazing is how people hold onto fundamental beliefs against all the evidence.

First the Earth was flat - then we found by observing lunar and solar eclipses that it was round

Then the Earth was the center of the Universe - until we deduced that the orbits of the planets only made sense if they all rotated around the sun

Then it was maintained that God created the world about 5,000 years ago - until we discovered dinosaur bones...

Oh... wait... no - apparently God put the dinosaur bones there and messed with carbon dating etc... as a test of faith. So right now we are in the era where the science of evolution is being fought over until eventually the fundamentalists will say "OK then, God created evolution - but it was all planned in advance".

Once that point gets settled I expect the fundamentalists to argue against quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle which effectiveley means that NOTHING can be set that far in advance due to quantum probabilities - but there you go... ;)

Winetalk.com
12-21-2005, 01:55 PM
You're getting points for that first line! :yowsa:

The "God Theory" has the "always was" clause in it, which frankly, I'm comfortable with.


"Always was" theory defies logic. If it didn't, I would have the answer about where the particles came from. This is the difference between "faith" and "science", faith doesn't require logical explanations.

Dravyk
12-21-2005, 02:04 PM
On a similiar but different "thread" ... I read just the other day, the scientists who have proposed "string theory" have run into some kind of mathematic brick wall all of a sudden and they don't know what to do. LOL Back to square one.

PornoDoggy
12-21-2005, 04:10 PM
The fundamental problem with fundamentalists is that they presume to know God's time.

All the theory of evolution proves is that man has been able to determine part of God's process or methodoolgy.

JR
12-21-2005, 08:36 PM
there is a big difference between science and religion and how it is taught in my opinion. science seeks the truth... no matter what that truth is. although it is often initially rejected or meets resistence, it ultimitately is accepted as such as the evidence can no longer be disputed. science is fluid and changing as new facts arise that change views of what is being studied.

religion is a static view of live, the universe and everything. about one view and one view only. one question and one answer and is unchanging no matter what new information arises.

science might one day prove religion correct. religion today cannot prove science correct.

i would prefer my children studied science and if science proves there is a god, then great. until then, i would rather just sit back and wait for god to part the pacific or turn the NY city water system into wine. apparently he used to do this shit all the time.

JR
12-21-2005, 08:37 PM
The fundamental problem with fundamentalists is that they presume to know God's time.

All the theory of evolution proves is that man has been able to determine part of God's process or methodoolgy.

they created a whole new type of mathematics called "biblical math" which allows the book of genesis to more or less jive with the fossile record and history of the earth. sounds like a dumb joke... but its not.

Dravyk
12-22-2005, 11:29 AM
they created a whole new type of mathematics called "biblical math" which allows the book of genesis to more or less jive with the fossile record and history of the earth. sounds like a dumb joke... but its not. I wish you had been joking too. :headwall:

It's really wild when one goes to a history site (that's based on history, not from the prospective of religion) and tries their best to compare historical fact with Bible facts (just to see what jives and what doesn't) because they end up having (pun intended) a hell of a time as Moses, Abraham and the rest of the "grand old fathers" in the early books of the Bible are said to have lived for 700-900 years each!

Mind you, so were the first founders of Babylon and other "first ancients". I think in the retelling of early history, it seemed to give one's culture more credence somehow by having the first kings and founders living for milleniums. And natch, the Bible writers kept that tradition in their writings and history too.

MorganGrayson
12-22-2005, 12:14 PM
Ticks me off just a tad that in any discussion of "religion," "faith," etc., etc., what is referenced is the Bible and the "fundamentalists." That leaves rather a large group of people out of the discussion. :hmm:

Science is science. I like science. I was good at it in school. Math, too.

Religion is religion. I'm good at that, too. How do I know? Because I am happy and content. That's all religion is supposed to do, make you happy, content and feeling safe within your skin and this silly planet we're on. It's got nothing to do with science. If I'm wrong, if there's nothing else and all I do is live a happy, content life then blink out like a burnt out light bulb at the end of it all...I still win.

Bhelliom
12-22-2005, 12:20 PM
check out www.venganza.org (http://www.venganza.org)

This open letter to the Kansas school board regarding "intelligent design" will put everything in perspective.

MorganGrayson
12-22-2005, 12:28 PM
check out www.venganza.org (http://www.venganza.org/)

This open letter to the Kansas school board regarding "intelligent design" will put everything in perspective.

Thanks, Derek. My day has been made. :)

Bhelliom
12-22-2005, 12:33 PM
You're welcome.

I thought the best part of that letter is the final request. "I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence."


Now worship the flying spaghetti monster and his noodly appendage

DrGuile
12-22-2005, 12:45 PM
check out www.venganza.org (http://www.venganza.org)

This open letter to the Kansas school board regarding "intelligent design" will put everything in perspective.

oh man, that's awesome

WHY YOU SHOULD CONVERT TO FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTERISM

* Flimsy moral standards.
* Every friday is a relgious holiday. If your work/school objects to that, demand your religious beliefs are respected and threaten to call the ACLU.
* Our heaven is WAY better. We've got a Stripper Factory AND a Beer Volcano.

TheEnforcer
12-22-2005, 12:58 PM
Very good ruling by this judge! He's calling a spade a spade.

Dravyk
12-22-2005, 02:52 PM
Our heaven is WAY better. We've got a Stripper Factory AND a Beer Volcano. Whoa!!! Where do I join??? http://oprano.com/msgboard/images/smilies/hello2.gif

Hell, I could be a Bishop in that Church! Yah, baby!! http://oprano.com/msgboard/images/smilies/drunk01.gif

DrGuile
12-22-2005, 05:06 PM
oh my...

http://rickandsidney.com/

click 'Creation Program' and hold on to your sides ;)