View Full Version : who do you hold responsible?
Biggy
09-02-2005, 03:37 AM
for the disorganization in the aftermath of hurricane katrina?
I know it was a natural disaster, and unpredictable to a certain degree, but the way its digressed over the last 3 days, who specifically is to be held accountable?
Carrie
09-02-2005, 05:25 AM
I dunno. If finding someone to blame will make you feel better, try blaming all of the downed trees and power lines for hundreds of miles that are holding up the rescue people trying to get in. They have to clear the road before they can help.
Try blaming the looters and armed gangs for making people who are otherwise okay (at least alive and dry in their homes) so frightened to stay in their homes that they abandon them and cause more bottlenecks of people at the evacuation staging areas.
Try blaming the fuckheads shooting at the helicopters that are trying to get people out of there for evacuation efforts not going more quickly.
Try blaming the people that stayed even though they were told again and again to get out while they still could, days upon days in advance.
I've got an idea. How about not assigning blame at all? It's too futile. Instead, look at what we can do to keep it from happening again.
Biggy
09-02-2005, 05:58 AM
Instead, look at what we can do to keep it from happening again.
It's going to be hard to do that, without looking at what happened this time around...?
you cannot look at the situation and say "hey, the people in charge did everything right." If its true about 50-60% of the NOPD walking off the job, you have to question the higher-ups at the NOPD and their abilities, no? Not to mention some of the NOPD was looting?! Without the police, it makes it hard to control those "armed gangs" and the "looters," even though that is the last thing they should have to deal with (i think we all agree on that). Thats just one example I am thinking of...
A lot of talk about lack of food, water, medicine.. poor planning? I know roads are inaccessible due to hurricane damage, but there can still be air drops, etc. And yes I know the air vehicles are being used for rescue. I know its one big clusterfuck. I know there is a lot going on, but can someone really be satisfied with the way this situation was handled by those in charge? Much of the aftermath was preventable IMO. Not the hurricane damage, not the people who drowned, but the people who are starving for days afterwards? I would never ever want to see anything like this happen again, which is why you need accountability.
This is also not meant to take away from people who are doing what they are supposed to be doing, nor is it meant to take away from the people who braved it out all the way thru, like DirectNIC. For those people, it just shows their true colors how they can stick it out, even in the roughest of times.
On a side note, it also could be the media is brainwashing my mind :) you really don't know what you see unless you're there, but the blog posts seem to line up with what I'm saying about lack of coordination, which IMO is preventable with the right people in place.
Winetalk.com
09-02-2005, 06:54 AM
in one word: LEADERSHIP of the city and State
I came from the Soviet Union,
the country which suffered the most during WWII,
where cities were blockaded for YEARS, Leningrad,
and not only the city has defended itself from the military aggression, with no supplies, with no food, totally cut off from the mainland,
but maintained law and order.
The fish gets rotten the head first.
The time has come to pay for years of corruption.
As someone who have only seen this from the media side, then it looks like the leadership failed... this is not a situation where resources and manpower have been lacking. It has been the leadership that have not been able to connect the dots in a timely manner given room for chaos to spread.
Hopefully we select our leaders based on their ability to lead, and not because of nepotism. The frustration will always be present in a crisis situation, but things have clearly been taking to long - evacuation from the large gathering places should have been done by now, looting/disorder should have been crushed - all of these are problem which are man made, and not the work of nature.
Winetalk.com
09-02-2005, 07:40 AM
more on the subject of leadership failure:
http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=42890
Peaches
09-02-2005, 08:18 AM
You have to at least put some of the blame on the citizens They are looting unnecessary items, killing, raping, shooting at rescuers...I doubt an emergency plan included "What to do when our own citizens turn against themselves and approaching those trying to help them with deadly force.".
Sure, you can say "Well they had nothing, no one was there in minutes helping them, etc." but I don't recall Tsnami survivors acting this way and they had less food and shelter for a longer period of time. In fact, I can't remember this kind of response in any natural disaster.
Timon
09-02-2005, 08:20 AM
Just saw something interesting on TV, it was known the levees could only withstand a category 3 hurricane. There were plans for the army engineers to upgrade them but Bush canceled the funding for them.
Now if they knew in advance a cat 4 or 5 was coming, and the levees could only withstand a cat 3 then whoever is in charge of getting aid and the national guard in place fucked up pretty badly by not organizing the relieve effort before the storm hit.
If I were an American I'd be pretty pissed right now.
Timon
09-02-2005, 08:24 AM
You have to at least put some of the blame on the citizens They are looting unnecessary items, killing, raping, shooting at rescuers...I doubt an emergency plan included "What to do when our own citizens turn against themselves and approaching those trying to help them with deadly force.".
Sure, you can say "Well they had nothing, no one was there in minutes helping them, etc." but I don't recall Tsnami survivors acting this way and they had less food and shelter for a longer period of time. In fact, I can't remember this kind of response in any natural disaster.
Well there isn't anything to loot in Bandah Ace either, but there were lots of cases of children being kidnapped, supossedly for the sex trade.
Winetalk.com
09-02-2005, 08:29 AM
You have to at least put some of the blame on the citizens They are looting unnecessary items, killing, raping, shooting at rescuers...I doubt an emergency plan included "What to do when our own citizens turn against themselves and approaching those trying to help them with deadly force.".
Sure, you can say "Well they had nothing, no one was there in minutes helping them, etc." but I don't recall Tsnami survivors acting this way and they had less food and shelter for a longer period of time. In fact, I can't remember this kind of response in any natural disaster.
not true, Peaches.
People are just being people, and if the Leadership issued the "Shot to kill looters, rapists, etc" order-
the Law and Order wouldn't be a major concern, don't you think?
I doubt an emergency plan included "What to do when our own citizens turn against themselves and approaching those trying to help them with deadly force.".
I doubt they did not have a plan for such a scenario - its called civil unrest.
Question should be who had the power to deploy troops to stop this?
Peaches
09-02-2005, 08:44 AM
not true, Peaches.
People are just being people, and if the Leadership issued the "Shot to kill looters, rapists, etc" order-
the Law and Order wouldn't be a major concern, don't you think?
I agree they should be shot on site. But as I explained to Cory, that will be the next headline: "People killed while trying only to survive". Someone is always going to blame someone else for problems.
When the people you try to help are fighting you, it becomes almost a no-win situation. I want to get Billy out :(
When the people you try to help are fighting you, it becomes almost a no-win situation.
It happens everyday in Baghdad... still someone have the leadership to not back down from the thugs... What makes New Orleans different?
sarettah
09-02-2005, 08:49 AM
It was a tremendous lack of planning that caused the problems.
The evacuation plan was almost non existent. The evacuation plan did not take into account the people without transportation.
The ideas to put people into the superdome looks as if it was almost a last minute thing, and it was a stupid solution from the git go.
FEMA claims they didn't know people were at the convention center. I knew people were at the convention center, anyone that watched CNN Tuesday and Wednesday knew there were people at the convention center. How the hell could FEMA NOT know ?
The hurricane was noone's fault. That almost all of the aftermath was foreseeable and could have been avoided has many levels of fault to it. From the local level of government right on up to the head man in charge.
Winetalk.com
09-02-2005, 08:49 AM
Here is the pic of Billy's neigbor
:)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/americas_new_orleans_lawlessness/img/1.jpg
He issued his own orders....
Carrie
09-02-2005, 09:13 AM
not true, Peaches.
People are just being people, and if the Leadership issued the "Shot to kill looters, rapists, etc" order-
the Law and Order wouldn't be a major concern, don't you think?
The Guardsmen have been given the order to shoot to kill.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050902/ts_nm/weather_katrina_wrap_dc
The problem comes down to... how can you shoot someone when you can't tell if he's carrying a DVD player that he doesn't need or a box of food that he does need?
The rapists, and folks shooting at rescue personnel, sure... kill 'em. Harder to do with the looters.
Almighty Colin
09-02-2005, 09:15 AM
I blame Katrina.
Harder to do with the looters.
You do not need to kill people who are looting - you just need put them out of play by arresting them - pretty hard to continuing looting, when you are sitting in jail/camp (or whatever they are going to use).
Carrie
09-02-2005, 09:27 AM
Biggy, I don't think the folks in charge did everything right. I think they did what they *could*... you can only plan so far ahead and when a hundred thousand people ignore your order to get out, what do you do? Ya know?
The NOPD thing is mind-boggling. But in my mind, this can't be attributed to one person or to higher-ups. This is a set of people each individually choosing to act in this manner. You can't control that kind of thing. If folks that are still there can get pictures of this stuff happening, I think every police officer caught in a photo should be fired immediately with no pension and a no-rehire notice on his record that gets sent to every police dept in the country.
As for this being preventable, I think the only way to universally plan for that is to *force* people out of their homes and onto buses and evacuate them whether they want to go or not. If the city were empty of people right now, this would be a much better situation.
The folks who are starving right now, dying right now, they wouldn't be if they had left when they were told to. And I'm sorry, I don't think the people who stayed or "stuck it out" are brave or noble whatsoever. That's not bravery, it's not nobility, it's stupidity and pride. They are all *contributing* to what's happening right now, even if they're trying to help in some small way. Each of them is still a person that the gov't needs to be concerned with, their safety, their physical needs. When they piss and shit they're contributing to polluting the water.
The city officials, the Guardsmen, etc all could be focusing right now on clearing the streets, draining the water, getting the power back on... instead, because of the folks who stayed, they have to divert all of that attention to stopping looting, raping, starving, pollution...
The only way to prevent this would have been to use guns and force the people to leave. :(
Carrie
09-02-2005, 09:29 AM
You do not need to kill people who are looting - you just need put them out of play by arresting them - pretty hard to continuing looting, when you are sitting in jail/camp (or whatever they are going to use).
Rolo the jails are all flooded and/or destroyed. They've been arresting people and there's nowhere to put them. Once you arrest them, then you have to worry about transporting them somewhere and finding a place to keep them - things that the lawful citizenry needs first.
Winetalk.com
09-02-2005, 09:30 AM
You do not need to kill people who are looting - you just need put them out of play by arresting them - pretty hard to continuing looting, when you are sitting in jail/camp (or whatever they are going to use).
This is NOT a solution...NOPD released all criminals from local jails as it was impossible to keep them, due to the local conditions.
sarettah
09-02-2005, 09:37 AM
As for this being preventable, I think the only way to universally plan for that is to *force* people out of their homes and onto buses and evacuate them whether they want to go or not. If the city were empty of people right now, this would be a much better situation.
That is what a "MANDATORY" evacuation is. You don't just say "you have to get out", you make sure they are out.
The only evacuation plan I saw in action throughout this was to tell people to go. Some of those people spent 9 or 10 hours and only managed to get 90 miles down the road. Airlines, that could have been flying all the way into Sunday evening had canceled flights Sunday morning leaving travelers stranded.
That is piss poor planning on the part of whoever came up with the evacuation plan.
The "plan" also did not take into account those without transportation. If you are in an urban area, you have a good many folks that do not have cars. If you do a mandatory evacuation, you have to take into account that you might be busing a whole lot of people out. The plan did not include "ordering" the airlines to keep flying folks out of there. If you are a tourist area, then you know that you need to take into account the fact that many folks will be relying on air flight.
Then the putting folks in the superdome thing. Dammit. That was obviously a last minute call as evidenced by the lack of food, etc.
The Feds labeled it a federal disaster BEFORE the storm hit.
The media were calling for a worst case scenario from the word go.
Since they knew they had a disaster going into it, they should have had stuff staged and ready to go. They didn't !
It is obvious that there was no real plan. The only plan was "ok, evacuate, everyone will leave..."
Rolo the jails are all flooded and/or destroyed. They've been arresting people and there's nowhere to put them. Once you arrest them, then you have to worry about transporting them somewhere and finding a place to keep them - things that the lawful citizenry needs first.
You will be surprised what "hand restraints + barbed wire + armed soliders" can do to control people... You can setup outdoor camps on the asphalt. Civil rights have been removed from the area - no one are expected to have their "one phone call" and be brought before a judge - this is a disaster area.
Transportation should be no problem - boats can be used along with airlift - you do not need to transport inmates hundreds of miles by these means - simply to dry land, where they can be removed by trucks.
Peaches
09-02-2005, 09:58 AM
It happens everyday in Baghdad... still someone have the leadership to not back down from the thugs... What makes New Orleans different?
I cannot imagine it was something that was planned for. We KNEW we were going to be shot at in Baghdad. I don't recall any other situation where rescuers were shot at during a natural disaster rescue - I doubt it was something they had planned for.
This is NOT a solution...NOPD released all criminals from local jails as it was impossible to keep them, due to the local conditions.
Which shows that someone in command fucked up - letting criminals out in a disaster area is like mixing fuel with fire...
I don't recall any other situation where rescuers were shot at during a natural disaster rescue - I doubt it was something they had planned for.
In Europe they have had problems with people living in social areas making fake alarm calls, and then attacking the rescue workers when they arrive - throwing stones at them etc. Reason is that these people see any "uniform" as authorities like police. This mentality is also present in crisis situations - you could be a mailman in a uniform, and someone would see you as an authority...
Carrie
09-02-2005, 10:53 AM
Which shows that someone in command fucked up - letting criminals out in a disaster area is like mixing fuel with fire...
What were they supposed to do, leave them in their cells until they drowned?
Rolo hon I don't think you fully understand what's going on down there. There are entire prison populations sitting on highway off-ramps without food and water with nothing more than guards with guns to keep them under control.
There isn't much "dry land" to put these guys on. There certainly aren't many cops around to babysit them - the cops who aren't looting themselves are busy trying to save people from drowning and stopping the looting.
Go to http://news.yahoo.com and look at the pictures. They'll help you understand. If the only pics you're seeing are those from Buff's blog, you're not getting the full picture. It's dry where Buff is at - it's NOT dry in the rest of the city.
Also if you go to http://www.cnn.com there's a link to Mayor Nagin's radio interview this morning where he's cussing up a storm and telling it like it is.
What were they supposed to do, leave them in their cells until they drowned?
Put them up on a long line - tie them with rope (bed sheets etc.), and walk until you are safe from the water. Then have someone drop you supplies, or move them to safe/dry land. Ofcourse when evacuation is not working, then it will mean harsh conditions in the heat, but you can survive days without food/water, if you conserve your energy.
Maybe its my european background, but keeping prisoners under control during a long march by foot is not a frightening situation. Again when you got people under control, then they can not cause problems to other people fighting for their own life. And where is the logic in realeasing criminals, who have no resources to take care of themself, in an area where there is no order? If they had lions at the zoo would they also release them into the public?
Pointing fingers and placing blame does and will no no good
That being said, why does everyone cry to the "government" to help them? What happened to self reliance? Sorry there will be a little Darwinism along the way, not pretty but that's life ....... and death (want to debate this point, read Buff's Blog)
Also this has been the worst crisis management ever, from President Bush (who started an "oil shortage" by announcing we will have one without having a credible plan in place) to local New Orleans politicians (one local congressman was procuring buses to evac Xavier students and then announced we will take other passengers on a first come first serve basis ... WRONG you take medical emergencies first, then the elderly, then children and then mothers. If your a healthy male you just have to wait)
What amazes me the most (well maybe not) is how the citizens of New Orleans have acted (and these were not typical of the New Orleans citizens I've come to know) who immediately went to law of the jungle instead of helping each other.
Compare the hands then went out during 9/11 to the guns that went up in the aftermath of Katerina
WTF, sorry you can't eat that TV you just looted, there is no electricity for about 90 miles and I don't think anyone is buying it.
Procuring food and water is fine, bring it on and I'll help, you have to live
from some of the things I've seen I think my wallet is closed for relief aid and that makes me sad, wish it wasn't that way
Oh yeah and I see the rest of the world rushing to help the USA
But I can't blame them too much after what I've seen but still
FUCK EVERYONE THE USA HAS HELPED OVER THE YEARS
One of the things that bothers me about humans is how gratitude has a short shelf life
Carrie
09-02-2005, 11:16 AM
This is futile.
Tell ya what, Rolo. Call up Mayor Ray Nagin and explain to him how easy this is. Give him all of your ideas. Here's the city's url with contact info: http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=1
What were they supposed to do, leave them in their cells until they drowned?
.
Yes
Murders, rapists and the like should have been left to die
Nickatilynx
09-02-2005, 11:26 AM
I saw the same news report that Timon did.
Saying pretty much they were supposed to use the Army Engineers to reinforce and refurbish the levee but they needed the military elsewhere and cut back the budget.
Winetalk.com
09-02-2005, 11:26 AM
V ick, even Communists moved prisoners to Siberia in the face of Hitler's advances.
This is futile.
Tell ya what, Rolo. Call up Mayor Ray Nagin and explain to him how easy this is. Give him all of your ideas. Here's the city's url with contact info: http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=1
I have no idea what Mayor Ray Nagin have had to work with, and yes it is easy for me to suggest other solutions in retrospect. I´m sure that he have done his best, however as it shows SOMETHING or SOMEONE messed up - no matter how good their intentions were it failed.
I hope I never find myself in a similar situation, but if I will, then I do know myself well enough to say that I would make it right, and not loose precious time allowing the chaos to spread.
Dravyk
09-02-2005, 11:38 AM
Just erased what I was going to post here originally. Thought it would be cathartic to list people to blame. Problem is there's just so many to list for so many reasons it's not worth it. (I'll take an exemption to post spades of curses later though.)
The saddest thing is there was more cooperation and faster real saving done in Thailand and places during the tsunami then there is here. The world -- and us -- are wondering how victims in third world countries received better and faster help than the US can provide in their own damned country. To say there is a leadership vacuum is to be kind. Gross incompetence on an epic scale is more like it.
Nickatilynx
09-02-2005, 11:43 AM
"""The world -- and us -- are wondering how victims in third world countries received better and faster help than the US can provide in their own damned country. To say there is a leadership vacuum is to be kind. Gross incompetence on an epic scale is more like it."""
Sorry to say I think you are right.
Iy is also society ,the US refects what will happen and is happening across the world..
We live in a time when being a whore , or a "gangsta" , rather than education and hard work , is celebrated
We live in a time when being a whore , or a "gangsta" , rather than education and hard work , is celebrated
Too true and too sad, at least it doesn't hold true everywhere
Fuck this, 30 days until Disney World.
I think we could all use a dose of smiles and a little magic
Biggy
09-02-2005, 11:55 AM
How about this... the warnings before the hurricane were stellar. I recall hearing a few reporters state before the storm how those at the Superdome will be calling the Superdome home for the next few weeks or even months. I heard this comment from at least 2 different reporters, did you?
They ran out of food immediately... 2-3 days after people were starving? This I could not believe.
PornoDoggy
09-02-2005, 12:09 PM
Actually, Vick, I believe that a number of governments have offered assistance, and Bush has said that some will be considered.
This bulk of this conversation borders on downright silly.
There is more than enough "blame" here to go around.
Oddly enough, I'm not prepared to put too much blame on the federal government at this point. Approval of all the fucking money in the world in this budget would not have completed those levies in time for this storm (although it might just point out that the sucking sound you hear is vital homeland security project money heading to the clusterfuck in Iraq).
Local contingency plans were quite obviously inadequate. That responsibility falls on the city and the state. The actions of a number of individual citizens are clearly despicable (although methinks the demographics of those involved has influenced some to defend the government).
The warnings that this was likely to happen have been being sounded for thirty years or more. This was no 9/11 - yes, the warning was short (Saturday morning for a Monday "attack"), but that this was the nature of hurricanes has been common knowlege for a long time.
There is more than enough blame to go around - from right down to the individual level up to all levels of government.
Biggy
09-02-2005, 03:10 PM
http://somethingawful.com/
go read the message on there.
melody
09-03-2005, 04:20 AM
The Republicans will all blame the Democrats and the Democrats will all blame the Republicans.
However, Louisiana and NO's command and control were in chaos. Bush was strumming a guitar and eating cake. He made the decisions which ultimately led to most of the problems - FEMA gutting, NO funding cuts, the National Guard being everywhere but where they are supposed to be. I'm sure the local officials shared in the stupidity, but Bush wins hands down in the final tally.
Maybe Bush could send his good friend Pat Robertson in to put some hits on people. You know, the Christian way.
MissEve
09-03-2005, 06:08 AM
not true, Peaches.
People are just being people, and if the Leadership issued the "Shot to kill looters, rapists, etc" order-
the Law and Order wouldn't be a major concern, don't you think?
My grandparents and mother were evacuated in 1967 when Fairbanks, AK was flooded. They told me that the first looter was shot and killed and after that there was no more looting or violence. Obviously this was a much smaller city and a different time but it DOES seem pretty effective.
Winetalk.com
09-03-2005, 06:37 AM
MissEve,
desperate times call for desperate measures.
Timon
09-04-2005, 03:33 AM
My grandparents and mother were evacuated in 1967 when Fairbanks, AK was flooded. They told me that the first looter was shot and killed and after that there was no more looting or violence. Obviously this was a much smaller city and a different time but it DOES seem pretty effective.
People loot because there's nobody there stopping them. If they thought they'd get shot they wouldn't be doing it ;-)
When there is a large area of low cost housing where the local teenagers spend their days doing car jackings, driveby's, selling crack and raping girls then it's quite predictable what will happen when the police won't be able to respond to calls. I can't believe nobody figured this out in advance and that they have to scramble for nearly a week to deal with it.
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