Halting The Use Of Puppies And Kittens As Shark Bait [Archive]

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WickedTemptress

08-26-2005, 11:45 AM

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050825/1/3ui77.html

Brigitte Bardot, the 1950s and 1960s film star turned animal rights campaigner, has called on the French government to halt the reported use by fishermen on the island of Reunion of live puppies and kittens as shark bait.

"It is imperative that the government does something to end this practice," she said in a letter to the minister for French overseas territories, Francois Baroin, a copy of which was given to AFP Thursday.

According to Clicanoo, a newspaper in Reunion, a French island located in the Indian Ocean, a six-month-old puppy was found last month with hooks implanted in its snout and one of its legs.

The French Society for the Protection of Animals (SPA) told the daily the dog was the victim of cruel fishermen who attract sharks by throwing puppies or kittens into the water, tied to fishing lines, and wait for the predators to swallow the thrashing animals.

"We don't see that every day, but it's not the first time, either," Marie-Annick Chantrel, the vice-president of the Reunion branch of the SPA, told Clicanoo. "We've already seen cats six or seven months old with hooks in them."

Bardot told Baroin that "unfortunately these are not isolated incidents, and the people of Reunion are the first to be horrified by this despicable barbarity which mars the image of their island."

The campaigner, who runs an animal defence association, said she had written to authorities on the island to have them put a stop to the crime.

sarettah

08-26-2005, 11:54 AM

Dead puppies,
Dead puppies,
Dead puppies aren't much fun.

They don't come when you call
they don't chase squirrels at all,
Dead puppies aren't much fun.

Dead puppies,
da da da Dead puppies,
da da da Dead puppies aren't much fun.

My puppy died late last fall,
e's still rotting in the hall.
Dead puppies aren't much fun, no no no.

Dead puppies,
da da da Dead puppies,
da da da Dead puppies aren't much fun.

Mom says puppies days are through
she's going to throw him in the stew,
dead puppies aren't much fun.

Dead puppies
Da da da dead puppies,
da da da dead puppies arent much fun.

Ok, everybody sing along.......

Da da da Dead puppies
Da da da dead puppies,
da da da dead puppies arent much fun.

Da da da Dead puppies
Da da da dead puppies,
da da da dead puppies arent much fun.

Da da da Dead puppies
Da da da dead puppies,
da da da dead puppies arent much fun.

Da da da Dead puppies
Da da da dead puppies,
da da da dead puppies arent much fun.

(not to make light of the whole thing...... :okthumb: )

sarettah

08-26-2005, 12:46 PM

MorganGrayson

08-26-2005, 01:09 PM

On a more serious note:

I understand that people get upset about cute little puppies and kittens being used for bait. But what is the difference between using a cute little puppy or using an ugly old clam, or a chunk of beef, or a baby fish or any other living thing that may be used for bait, not to mention of course the cute little shark they are trying to catch.

It always seems to me that the folks most interested in legislating against improper treatment of animals are usually only in favor of protecting the cute ones.

First, Morgan has to control the urge to vomit on her keyboard that hit when she read that article.
Second, Morgan has to go pet all of her cats.

*deep breath*

OK...sarettah...this seems to be your day as "Fair Point Devil's Advocate." You're right. *Certain* animal rights people do seem to have a preference for only the "cute" animals. (Refusing to eat tuna because dolphins get caught in the net is a case in point. It's all right to slaughter the tuna, but not the dolphins. For those of you who know more about this, yes, I am fully aware that dolphins have a higher intelligence and are swimming in the deeper end of the gene pool...so-to-speak.)

However...we as a civilization have categorized animals. Certain are used for food (which as omnivores, we have as much right to do as lions on the Sarengeti...except for the "Killing it ourselves" part, which we do not do) and certain animals are labeled "pets." (There are other labels, but these are the two relevent ones.) Using "pets" for bait is going to cause a horrific knee-jerk reaction and logic be damned. It did in me and I try and work on the logical side of my brain and let it out to walk around as much as possible.

Something Wicca This Way Comes....
Cats and dogs are especially beloved of the Goddess. They are able to see past the veil, which is why the tend to freak out - or just respond, depending - in a house occupied by an entity humans may not be able to see. They have been worshipped at different times in history by different cultures. A lot of witches have cats as "familiars." (Look it up, gentle reader, if interested.)

Historians say dogs were among the first domesticated animals, used for companionship and protection. Our love affair with these two species has gone on for millions of years.

Attempting to drag myself back to the original point, you're right sarettah. We should care about *all* living creatures, not just the cute ones.

I'm going to send positive energy to Wicked Temptress now in the hopes I can help her up off the floor. :)

sarettah

08-26-2005, 01:35 PM

For those of you who know more about this, yes, I am fully aware that dolphins have a higher intelligence and are swimming in the deeper end of the gene pool

Just a note on this... Check out a porpoises skeleton some time, they used to have fully opposable thumbs. All the bones are still there :okthumb:

However...we as a civilization have categorized animals..... Certain are used for food and certain animals are labeled "pets." (There are other labels, but these are the two relevent ones.)

But depending on the society, certain animals that we label as "pets" they label as "food". ie: Dogs are a meal for many societies, not only southeast asian but right here in North America; Horses are also a meal for many third world societies such as New Jersey

Attempting to drag myself back to the original point, you're right sarettah. We should care about *all* living creatures, not just the cute ones.

How bout plants ? :blink:

:rolleyes:

WickedTemptress

08-26-2005, 01:40 PM

First, Morgan has to control the urge to vomit on her keyboard that hit when she read that article.
Second, Morgan has to go pet all of her cats.

*deep breath*

OK...sarettah...this seems to be your day as "Fair Point Devil's Advocate." You're right. *Certain* animal rights people do seem to have a preference for only the "cute" animals. (Refusing to eat tuna because dolphins get caught in the net is a case in point. It's all right to slaughter the tuna, but not the dolphins. For those of you who know more about this, yes, I am fully aware that dolphins have a higher intelligence and are swimming in the deeper end of the gene pool...so-to-speak.)

However...we as a civilization have categorized animals. Certain are used for food (which as omnivores, we have as much right to do as lions on the Sarengeti...except for the "Killing it ourselves" part, which we do not do) and certain animals are labeled "pets." (There are other labels, but these are the two relevent ones.) Using "pets" for bait is going to cause a horrific knee-jerk reaction and logic be damned. It did in me and I try and work on the logical side of my brain and let it out to walk around as much as possible.

Something Wicca This Way Comes....
Cats and dogs are especially beloved of the Goddess. They are able to see past the veil, which is why the tend to freak out - or just respond, depending - in a house occupied by an entity humans may not be able to see. They have been worshipped at different times in history by different cultures. A lot of witches have cats as "familiars." (Look it up, gentle reader, if interested.)

Historians say dogs were among the first domesticated animals, used for companionship and protection. Our love affair with these two species has gone on for millions of years.

Attempting to drag myself back to the original point, you're right sarettah. We should care about *all* living creatures, not just the cute ones.

I'm going to send positive energy to Wicked Temptress now in the hopes I can help her up off the floor. :)

:biglaugh: And who said I was on the floor? Hmmm?

Ok, ok... I was... But, for entirely different reasons than you think... :D

And Morgan, I wasn't aware I was in the presence of a fellow Wiccan ;)

sarettah

08-26-2005, 01:41 PM

damn, I forgot to mention Guinea pigs in my examples :headwall: :headwall: :headwall:

http://www.cockinpuss.com/piglets.jpg

MorganGrayson

08-26-2005, 01:47 PM

Just a note on this... Check out a porpoises skeleton some time, they used to have fully opposable thumbs. All the bones are still there :okthumb:

I *so* did not know that and am now so glad that I do! :okthumb:

But depending on the society, certain animals that we label as "pets" they label as "food". ie: Dogs are a meal for many societies, not only southeast asian but right here in North America; Horses are also a meal for many third world societies such as New Jersey

Yes, I'm aware of that. I was going more for a generalized, majority type of thing. :)

How bout plants ? :blink:

:rolleyes:

Do you mean should we care about them? *chuckle* You should have seen the mortified tree trimmer when I went outside and saw how brutally he'd pruned my beloved California Pepper in the front yard. I burst into tears. He reassured me that it would all grow back about a dozen times.

I watch those Saturday morning "fix up your house/yard/whatever" shows with my husband and yell "tree murderer!" at the screen a lot when some ritch yutz yanks out perfectly healthy plants and trees.

Yes, we should care about plants. It makes us better people to care.

The Ritual performed when harvesting needed herbs, etc., cares for the plant and provides a "thank you" for what it provides.

I'm not a fanatic. I just like to think about this stuff. :)

MorganGrayson

08-26-2005, 01:53 PM

:biglaugh: And who said I was on the floor? Hmmm?

Ok, ok... I was... But, for entirely different reasons than you think... :D

And Morgan, I wasn't aware I was in the presence of a fellow Wiccan ;)

:)
Yes. I converted years ago. For a long time, I followed the "uh...you might want to keep this to yourself" advice until it began to eat at me. It felt as if *not* mentioning it was because I was ashamed of it. I don't do things I'm ashamed of. The first time I mentioned it was at the hospital, when the nice young lady said "do you have a religious preference?" I said "yes." She asked "what?" I told her and she typed it in without batting an eye.

I haven't told my siblings, because they're rather judgemental people who don't know a lot about a lot of things. I grieve over that.

I need to study more. I have so many books here that haven't been read.

I'm really, *really* going to miss my daughter during Mabon and Samheim. They were her two favorites of the Sabbats.

MorganGrayson

08-26-2005, 01:55 PM

Sarettah....I am going to give you a vicious spaning over that pic!!!!:yowsa:

WickedTemptress

08-26-2005, 02:15 PM

:)
Yes. I converted years ago. For a long time, I followed the "uh...you might want to keep this to yourself" advice until it began to eat at me. It felt as if *not* mentioning it was because I was ashamed of it. I don't do things I'm ashamed of. The first time I mentioned it was at the hospital, when the nice young lady said "do you have a religious preference?" I said "yes." She asked "what?" I told her and she typed it in without batting an eye.

I haven't told my siblings, because they're rather judgemental people who don't know a lot about a lot of things. I grieve over that.

I need to study more. I have so many books here that haven't been read.

I'm really, *really* going to miss my daughter during Mabon and Samheim. They were her two favorites of the Sabbats.

*smiles* Ahh, we were in the broom closet, were we? :biglaugh: Glad you decided to come out and join the rest of us. ;)

Yes, I have also been in that same situation in the hospital. They start off standing there smiling and waiting for you to answer(with their pens pressed to the paper, ready to scribble down the answer they're anticipating you to respond with.)

Then you tell them and they kinda pause and look at you like "what did you say?" Almost like they can't believe you'd answer with anything but what they thought you'd answer with. :rolleyes: :biglaugh:

Oh! What are you reading? I have some suggestions for you if you'd like. :)

If you ever have any questions, just let me know, I'll be happy to help in whatever way that I can. ;)

Samhain is my FAVORITE holiday. And, wouldn't you know it, my favorite holiday is in my favorite season! :D

sarettah

08-26-2005, 02:28 PM

Sarettah....I am going to give you a vicious spaning over that pic!!!!:yowsa:

Hey, don't blame me....... http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=33445 :okthumb:

MorganGrayson

08-26-2005, 03:54 PM

*smiles* Ahh, we were in the broom closet, were we? :biglaugh: Glad you decided to come out and join the rest of us. ;)

Yes, I have also been in that same situation in the hospital. They start off standing there smiling and waiting for you to answer(with their pens pressed to the paper, ready to scribble down the answer they're anticipating you to respond with.)

Then you tell them and they kinda pause and look at you like "what did you say?" Almost like they can't believe you'd answer with anything but what they thought you'd answer with. :rolleyes: :biglaugh:

Oh! What are you reading? I have some suggestions for you if you'd like. :)

If you ever have any questions, just let me know, I'll be happy to help in whatever way that I can. ;)

Samhain is my FAVORITE holiday. And, wouldn't you know it, my favorite holiday is in my favorite season! :D

I *love* the "in the broom closet" line!!! That has always been one of my favorites!!! :clapping:

Sadly - and in quite an embarrassed way - I admit I haven't read anything in a long time. I've always had a problem with putting things that are important to *me* first in life.

I'd LOVE advice, help, recommended books, just knowing that I can say "Merry Meet!" or "Blessed Be" should I be so moved to do so and not everybody will go "huh?"!! Being a solitary so often sucks. :(

Samheim is the biggest celebration around here, as it should be. The altar takes up half the kitchen table. The day my husband made a fake hand rolled cigarette to honor his grandfather and put it on the altar reduced me to tears. (One of his fondest childhood memories was sitting at his grandfather's feet watching him roll his own cigarettes.) It was our first Samheim celebration. (I keep misspelling it...but I do pronounce it correctly.) He had been warmly indulgent during my search for what I was and shared my joy at finding out that what I was had an actual name. (We were both raised Catholic...and knew *that* wasn't it.) He's not a "declared Wiccan," but if you list what he believes...he comes so very close it doesn't really need declaring.

My son-in-law is Druid. A very long time ago he asked my daughter what her parents would think. All she could do was laugh and say "trust me on this one!" :)

MorganGrayson

08-26-2005, 03:55 PM

Hey, don't blame me....... http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=33445 :okthumb:

I wasn't present for the first posting of the pic.

I still want to get my palm on your butt. :yowsa:

Erm...I mean...you deserve a good spanking, buster! ;)

WickedTemptress

08-26-2005, 04:28 PM

I *love* the "in the broom closet" line!!! That has always been one of my favorites!!! :clapping:

Sadly - and in quite an embarrassed way - I admit I haven't read anything in a long time. I've always had a problem with putting things that are important to *me* first in life.

I'd LOVE advice, help, recommended books, just knowing that I can say "Merry Meet!" or "Blessed Be" should I be so moved to do so and not everybody will go "huh?"!! Being a solitary so often sucks. :(

Samheim is the biggest celebration around here, as it should be. The altar takes up half the kitchen table. The day my husband made a fake hand rolled cigarette to honor his grandfather and put it on the altar reduced me to tears. (One of his fondest childhood memories was sitting at his grandfather's feet watching him roll his own cigarettes.) It was our first Samheim celebration. (I keep misspelling it...but I do pronounce it correctly.) He had been warmly indulgent during my search for what I was and shared my joy at finding out that what I was had an actual name. (We were both raised Catholic...and knew *that* wasn't it.) He's not a "declared Wiccan," but if you list what he believes...he comes so very close it doesn't really need declaring.

My son-in-law is Druid. A very long time ago he asked my daughter what her parents would think. All she could do was laugh and say "trust me on this one!" :)

There are actually a few of us Wiccans in the business. I've met about a handful so far over the years. *smiles* I know what you mean though. ;)

As for a recommended list of things to read... I recommend "The Witch's Magical Handbook" By Gavin and Yvonne Frost. Really anything by them is good, but the one I recommended is excellent.

I don't know if you know who they are, but they are the ones that started the first church and school of Wicca and the ones that are responsible for getting Wicca recognized by the federal government as a religion.

Also "Buckland's Complete Book Of Witchcraft" By Raymond Buckland is a good one. He also has a video tape called "Witchcraft: Today and Yesterday" that is good.

Oh, and, I was raised Catholic as well. Well, my mom's side of the family is Catholic. My dad is Baptist. My brother and sister are Christian. And, my step-father is Protestant.

So, you could say I had a good mix of all of these growing up.

I'm an Eclectic Wiccan. :)

Merry Meet and Blessed Be Morgan, my dear ;)

Bhelliom

08-26-2005, 04:44 PM

DrGuile

08-26-2005, 04:47 PM

I had horse... its alright... very much like beef

sarettah

08-26-2005, 05:36 PM

sarettah

08-26-2005, 05:37 PM

I had horse... its alright... very much like beef

Yeah, but you're French so you probably use puppies and kittens as bait too... :blink:

MorganGrayson

08-26-2005, 05:54 PM

ok WT here's the question for you. Ignoring all the actual witchcraft stuff. I'm always interested in reading about ummm not to be offensive..... cults and religious origins... do you have any suggestions on say... the history of the wiccan religion?

I like to know how these things develop and change throughout history.

PS any comments made in this post do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the writer. Therefore, any furious outrage and urges to flip through spell books to curse me should be avoided.

I'll take a small try at this one. :)
(Just a small one. All the answers would take up...everything.)
"Wicca" is a religion. Oddly, one of the first groups to recognize it as such was the US Military. All military chaplains have a section on Wicca in their "handbooks," to tell them the right things to say in what circustances, just as they would for all the other religions.
Wicca is different from what is called "the Craft." (OK, if you've seen the movie...forget it.) Some Wiccans practice the Craft, some do not. I personally am not there yet.
No true Wiccan would *ever* "cast a spell" on someone. The Wiccan Rede says "an it harm none, do what ye will." Not too surprisingly, "putting a curse on someone" is harming them. "Repelling negative energy" is what a Wiccan would do.
The arguments of the "history" of the "Wiccan Religion" are still going on. Some say it dates to the...help me out here, WT. 1940's?

Now...there have *always* been women who knew more about herbs, healing, the powers of nature, etc. This goes back through time. They were called "witches" because of ignorant people who were afraid of them.

There is no Satan in either Wicca or the Craft.

When Christianity began its campaign for dominance, it "borrowed" a lot from the pagans. The Pagans celebrated "the wheel of the year," the natural cycles. It's not surprising that all Christian holidays fall near or on pagan ones. The Christians did that on purpose.

The "face" assigned to Satan is borrowed from "The Green Man," a phase of the God where he had horns...like a stag. He's a totally nice guy, really, and absolutely nothing to be afraid of.

Just like the Christians, the Satanists have borrowed a few things. The most often seen is the "pentacle," the five pointed star in a circle. (If it's a five pointed star alone, it's a pentagram.) In Wicca, the top point, pointing UP, stands for The Spirit, The Ether...called different things by different people. It symbolizes The Spirit *over* the four elements of Earth, Air, Fire and Water - making it more important. Satanists turned it upside down, to indicate that this corporeal existant was what mattered. They turned the Christian cross upside down, too. Their use of it doesn't make it evil, neither does their use of the pentacle. Frequently in movies with bad researchers, you will see an upright pentacle used and someone calling it a "Satanic symbol." (You may also here my scream like banshee if we're both watching the same movie.)

There are plenty of evil people out there calling themselves Wiccans, just as there are plenty of evil people out there calling themselves Christians.

Various Wiccan off the top of my head facts:
Wiccans do NOT proselitize. We answer questions, but we don't try and drum up members.
There's no such thing as a "Wiccan Bible."
All Wiccans are "witches" but not all "witches" are Wiccan. Some practice the Craft without having Wicca as their religion. (It's like "all poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles.")
All Wiccans/Pagans don't agree on everything any more than all Christians do. (I've known Methodists who wouldn't speak to Baptists and for the life of me...I couldn't figure out what the difference was.) The fights amonst the Pagans get just as ugly as any other group of people.
In Wicca, it is perfectly permissable to "wing it." Take a little piece here, a little piece there, and figure out what best fits you personally.

WickedTemptress

08-27-2005, 11:23 PM

WickedTemptress

08-28-2005, 01:08 AM

I'll take a small try at this one.

(Just a small one. All the answers would take up...everything.)

"Wicca" is a religion. Oddly, one of the first groups to recognize it as such was the US Military. All military chaplains have a section on Wicca in their "handbooks," to tell them the right things to say in what circustances, just as they would for all the other religions.

Wicca is different from what is called "the Craft." (OK, if you've seen the movie...forget it.) Some Wiccans practice the Craft, some do not. I personally am not there yet.

No true Wiccan would *ever* "cast a spell" on someone. The Wiccan Rede says "an it harm none, do what ye will." Not too surprisingly, "putting a curse on someone" is harming them. "Repelling negative energy" is what a Wiccan would do.

The arguments of the "history" of the "Wiccan Religion" are still going on. Some say it dates to the...help me out here, WT. 1940's?

Now...there have *always* been women who knew more about herbs, healing, the powers of nature, etc. This goes back through time. They were called "witches" because of ignorant people who were afraid of them.

There is no Satan in either Wicca or the Craft.

When Christianity began its campaign for dominance, it "borrowed" a lot from the pagans. The Pagans celebrated "the wheel of the year," the natural cycles. It's not surprising that all Christian holidays fall near or on pagan ones. The Christians did that on purpose.

The "face" assigned to Satan is borrowed from "The Green Man," a phase of the God where he had horns...like a stag. He's a totally nice guy, really, and absolutely nothing to be afraid of.

Just like the Christians, the Satanists have borrowed a few things. The most often seen is the "pentacle," the five pointed star in a circle. (If it's a five pointed star alone, it's a pentagram.) In Wicca, the top point, pointing UP, stands for The Spirit, The Ether...called different things by different people. It symbolizes The Spirit *over* the four elements of Earth, Air, Fire and Water - making it more important. Satanists turned it upside down, to indicate that this corporeal existant was what mattered. They turned the Christian cross upside down, too. Their use of it doesn't make it evil, neither does their use of the pentacle. Frequently in movies with bad researchers, you will see an upright pentacle used and someone calling it a "Satanic symbol." (You may also here my scream like banshee if we're both watching the same movie.)

There are plenty of evil people out there calling themselves Wiccans, just as there are plenty of evil people out there calling themselves Christians.

Various Wiccan off the top of my head facts:

Wiccans do NOT proselitize. We answer questions, but we don't try and drum up members.

There's no such thing as a "Wiccan Bible."

All Wiccans are "witches" but not all "witches" are Wiccan. Some practice the Craft without having Wicca as their religion. (It's like "all poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles.")

All Wiccans/Pagans don't agree on everything any more than all Christians do. (I've known Methodists who wouldn't speak to Baptists and for the life of me...I couldn't figure out what the difference was.) The fights amonst the Pagans get just as ugly as any other group of people.

In Wicca, it is perfectly permissable to "wing it." Take a little piece here, a little piece there, and figure out what best fits you personally.

This is probably going to be a bit lengthy... :biglaugh:

Ok, first of all, you have to understand that Wicca is a branch of Paganism...

So, on the one hand, you have to consider that Paganism dates back to forms of Animism. For example, it has been documented by paintings found in caves that before going on a hunt, ancient man would hold a sort of ritual where they would make a model of the animal they intended to hunt, then dance around a fire with their energy focused on their intentions(thus raising energy) and then they would attack the model of the animal.

Then, they would go out to hunt the real animal, with confidence of success.

So, on the one hand, and definitely in the ritual aspects of Wicca, you see it has ancient roots.

Before Wicca became Wicca though, there were other forms of Paganism which have been practiced for thousands and thousands of years...

And, before the time when Christianity was trying to make Paganism look unfavorable, there were actually many kings that consulted witches or practitioners of magic in decisions they made both for their kingdoms and in their own lives. This is where "Wicca" or "wise one" comes from.

Modern Wiccan magic practice largely owes its origins to practices of High Ritual Magic groups formed in the early 20th century like the Golden Dawn, Gerald Gardner, and Raymond Buckland.

You see, Gerald Gardner claimed to have been initiated into the Wiccan tradition in the 1930's by one of his female relatives from the The Fellowship of Crotona.

He then published a book called "High Magick's Aid." Then, after the repeal of the British anti-witchcraft laws in the early 1950's, he wrote two non-fiction pieces: "Witchcraft Today" and "The Meaning of Witchcraft."

He met a High Priestess who claimed to be the descendant of witches that had practiced real magic for centuries and became interested. And, days before the outbreak of World War II, he was initiated into the coven.

In the summer of 1940, he attended a large ritual gathering to stop the invasion of England by Germany and met some very influential magicians, including Aleister Crowley, who made an impression on him.

While he was still a member of The Fellowship of Crotona, Aleister Crowley gave him an honorable membership to the Ordo Temli Orientis.

Until 1946, he was also a member of the Ancient Druid Order or ADO.

He soon left The Fellowship of Crotona and formed his own coven, which included all of his own ideas based on his archeological research, the knowledge he gained from Aleister Crowley, and his many years of study and experience. This, as we know it, was the first "organized" coven of Wicca.

In 1960 Gerald was invited to a garden party at Buckingham Palace in recognition of his distinguished civil service work in the Far East. It was also on one of these trips to the Far East to relieve his asthma condition Gerald meet an Englishman, known as Raymond Buckland. It was because of Raymond Buckland that made Garderian Witchcraft to popularity in North America. (However, Raymond soon formed his own brand of Wicca known as Seax-Wicca.)

OK, still with me so far?

Now, also bare in mind that though Gerald Gardener and Raymond Buckland were reasonable for bring Wicca out into the open, so to speak, there WERE already practicing covens. So, they didn't just up and invent it. There were many covens that went into hiding because of what we Pagans refer to as "The Burning Times"...

So, getting back on track here... The argument is whether Wicca is an ancient religion dating back thousands and thousands of years or a new religion from the 30's... And, as you can see... The answer is really much more complex than that.

Yes, as a modern form of magic, it is relatively new in some respects, but it's roots are deep and very ancient.

I tend to think of it more as just a different transformation of ancient magic and rituals passed down through the ages...

But, there is more history here.

It was Gavin and Yvonne Frost who got the federal government to recognize witchcraft as a religion equal to any other in 1972.

They also had formed the first church and school of Wicca in 1968.

And, that should pretty basically cover the history of Wicca as we know it today.

Now, on to the other points of the post...

Yes, Morgan is right... Witches don't cast spells on people without their consent to do so. That INCLUDES protection spells or any spell to reflect or deflect any negative energy. Doing this creates bad Karma, and all things, whether good or bad, come back three-fold. So, witches are always careful of what they send out.

Hey... You know... I'm actually writing a sort of tutorial on the myths about Wicca. I'm not finished it, but, I'll post the ones I have finished so far.

I better make that another post though. :bighlaugh:

One more thing to add here though about your last sentence Morgan... We call that being an Eclectic Wiccan, which is what I am. There are branches of Wiccan/Pagan traditions that have their own set of rules to go by... An eclectic witch doesn't go by any set forms/rules of traditions, but rather(as you said) uses the bits and pieces that fit with their own beliefs.

And, yes, the one common thing you'll find in each tradition is the Wiccan Rede: "Harm none, do what thou will."

WickedTemptress

08-28-2005, 01:18 AM

Ok... There are 11 myths that I've written about so far... :)

MYTH # 1: "Wiccans worship the devil." The devil is a concept of Christianity, not Wicca. Wiccans do not believe in the devil. Therefore, how can we(Wiccans) worship something that we don't believe exists? Quite simply, we don't!

MYTH #2: "Witches use a Satanic symbol(the pentagram.)" This is a big misconception. First of all, when the symbol is up-right, it is called a pentacle, not a pentagram(as it's reverse side is referred to.) Secondly, it is NOT a Satanic symbol, though Satanists seem to have adopted the inverted symbol for their rites(much as they have adopted the inverted Christian cross.) This sacred symbol has been used by many, including Pythagoras(who used it to symbolize health) and his followers. They used it in order to recognize each other. Some Christian knights even used the symbol in medieval times.

So, what does this symbol mean to Wiccans? The five points of the star stand for the four different elements(Air, Fire, Water, and Earth) and the center of the star represents the Spirit. Some say it represents a human with their legs and arms stretched, and the Goddess' wisdom which surrounds them.

The reverse pentacle, or rather, the pentagram has a different meaning. In some Wiccan traditions, the pentagram is a symbol of "second degree status" or one that has been elevated from an initiate. To those traditions, the pentagram is considered highly positive and in no way relates to the meaning when Satanists use the symbol.

When Satanists use the pentagram, they're putting the elements of Fire and Earth at the top. Fire symbolizes passion and willpower, Earth symbolizes prosperity and Earthly goods. This also places the Spirit at the bottom.

So, as you can see, although Satanists do use the pentagram, neither the pentacle or the pentagram originated from Satanism, many others used it before them, and for much different reasons and meanings.

MYTH # 3: "All witches are Wiccan." That is a false statement. All Wiccans are witches, but not all witches are Wiccan. There are many different sects of religions which refer to it's practitioners as witches. From the Witch Doctors of tribes, to Satanic witches, Strega(Italian witches) etc...

MYTH # 4: "Wiccans sacrifice animals, blood, and babies." This is not only a myth, but strictly goes against the Wiccan Rede, which says: "Harm NONE, do what thou will." Why would we Wiccans do anything that goes AGAINST our belief system? So, NO, Wiccans do not sacrifice animals, babies or blood(though some may choose to use their own blood for certain rites, it certainly is NOT a Wiccan belief or tradition, merely the personal choice of the individual.)

MYTH #5: "Wicca is not a religion, it's a cult." This is not true, and in 1972 the federal government recognized Witchcraft as a religion. In 1985, a federal appeals court was convinced that Wicca is a religion, equal to any other. Both of these huge steps were made possible thanks to Gavin and Yvonne Frost, founders of the first Church and School of Wicca.

Also, to have a cult, you must have a group of people that blindly follow one leader, as the definition states. Wicca doesn't have one leader to follow, there are no leaders in Wicca. There may be individuals that are selected to lead a group ritual(a task which some covens give each member a turn to do) but, there are no leaders of the practitioners themselves. Wiccans tend to be very free thinkers, always following their own paths. Therefore, Wicca can not be classified as a cult.

MYTH #6: "Only women can be witches." Both males and females can be referred to as witches in Wicca, male witches are not called warlocks. The term "warlock" is an old Scottish word that means traitor or oath breaker, which can be used to describe either a man or a woman that has betrayed their coven or has broken their oath to the Gods. It's a dishonorable label of sorts.

MYTH #7: "Witches fly on broomsticks at night." Neither Wiccans nor any other sort of witch flies on a broom during the night OR day. This is a myth that was started back when witches first started to be persecuted. In those days, some practitioners would place a broom between their legs and run around the fields, leaping high into the air(much like a child playing with a hobby horse.) The belief was that they were showing the crops how high to grow. However, as the Christian church was trying to make Pagan practices look unfavorable at that time, it was said that they were instead flying through the air with the devil at night on broomsticks.

MYTH #8: "Wiccans try to convert other people to their religion." Absolutely false. First of all, Wiccans believe that all paths are valid, as long as they don't impose upon the free will of another or civil rights. To attempt to convert someone to Wicca would be like saying that the path that person is already on, isn't just as valid, which would go against what we believe. We believe that each person must choose their own path. Instruction or initiation in Wicca is only done when the individual expresses interest or decides becoming Wiccan is the right choice for them. No one that is a TRUE Wiccan would ever try to push their religion on someone else.

MYTH #9: "Only a Witch can make another Witch." This is also false. To become Wiccan, one may either be initiated by another Wiccan OR may even initiate themselves. There is no rule that says that only another witch may perform the initiation. You may express your devotion and make your oaths to the Gods yourself(just as any solitary witch would do.) There are, however, some traditions where one can only become a member of a specific tradition by being initiated by a member of that specific tradition. But those traditions are no more important than any other or any single witch practicing in their own home.

I have also heard questions regarding the renouncing and/or desecration of one's religion in order to become Wiccan. These things would never, EVER be required of you to become Wiccan. Just another myth spread by misinformed people. Wiccans have respect for all paths(as stated above) and as such, we also respect the symbols that go along with those paths. Neither of these things are part of the initiation ritual OR any other part of the Wiccan religion.

MYTH #10 "Wiccans go around cursing people." Wiccans COULD curse someone, but, that would go against our belief system(Harm NONE) so, this is another myth. Wiccans do NOT go around cursing people, not only because of the Wiccan Rede, but because Wiccans also believe in Karma. Everything you send out, you get back times 3! So, if a curse was sent out, the sender would feel the effects of the curse three times worse than the person they sent it out to. So, you'd really be harming yourself more than the person who wronged you(if that was the case) did.

With that said, when a wrong doing occurs, Wiccans hand it to the Gods and to Karma and trust that they will judge the situation appropriately and handle it in the manner they see fit.

MYTH #11 "Wiccans cast love spells on people." Once again, this would go against the Wiccan Rede as it would infringe on the will of the person that the spell was cast on. Because of this reason, Wiccans don't cast love spells on specific people, but rather for love in general.

MorganGrayson

08-28-2005, 02:50 AM

:o (That's my "Damn, this woman is GOOD!" face!!)

Thanks, WT, you rocked with that. I winged what I wrote, just off the top of my head, but you covered it in such wonderful depth.

Yes, I'm an Ecclectic Solitary, who would very much like to stop being a solitary. :(

Oddly, one of the most difficult things about Wicca is that sneaky little "respect all Paths" thing. We go out into the world, knowing we must do that...and also knowing full well there's absolutely no way we're going to get it back. Also, some of the Paths out there seem to go out of their way to make it difficult to respect them. I personally have *severe* problems with any religion that practices "shunning." (Note: a "cult" is *not* a path, and doesn't fall into the "respect all Paths" thing.) I also get a little uptight with religions that declare themselves "the one *true* religion."

It's also very difficult belong to a faith that gives you such peace and joy...knowing that so many people are going to have a knee-jerk reaction to it based on incredible and often insulting ignorance.

One of my favorite stories about one of my daughters is her search for her own Path. She was in her room, reading about Wicca and came storming out. She grinned at me and said "I CAN'T be Wiccan...I'm not NICE enough!!!"

We are nice people. It's part of the whole deal. (In other words, we're supposed to be nice.) Therefore, having somebody ask you something about killing babies kinda makes the blood boil. We're not scary and we don't do anything anybody else couldn't handle if they took the time to learn about it. OK...San Diego has a "Witches Night Out" on Samhain, and we tend to "dress" for the occasion. There's a lot of long skirts, cloaks and pointy hats involved. There's a reason for the pointy hats...but we also have a sense of humor about ourselves.

In fact, one of the books I read said "don't be afraid if a ritual goes silly and you laugh in the circle." Laughter is beloved of the gods.

I had a real problem at first understanding the whole Goddess/God thing. Then something occurred to me. I was raised Catholic, which means I got a very solid dose of "the Holy Trinity." One Being, in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You know what? That never made any sense to me. I could never get my head around it, no matter how many Catechism classes I attended. So, back at the beginning of my conversion, I thought to myself "you were over here, where you were miserable...and didn't get something." Hmmmm.... Now you're over *here,* where you feel as if you've come home, you're at peace, you're full of joy...and you don't get something. Okie dokie. I can live with that.

sarettah

08-28-2005, 10:51 AM

Yes, we should care about plants. It makes us better people to care.

Ok, then how about the rocks ? :blink:

sarettah

08-28-2005, 10:54 AM

Help Im a rock, help Im a rock, help Im a rock!

(Ahahahahahahaaa)

Help Im a rock, help Im a rock, help Im a rock!

(Somebody, please, please!)

Help Im a rock, help Im a rock...

Wow man, its a drag being a rock

(Help Im a rock...)

I wish I was anything but a rock

Heck, Id even like to be a policeman

Hey, you know what, you know maybe if I practised, you know

Maybe if I passed my driving test

I could get a gig drivin that bus and pick some freaks up

In front of ben franks, right!

(Zappa....'65 )

MorganGrayson

08-28-2005, 11:52 AM

Ok, then how about the rocks ? :blink:

*patiently*
Yes, sarettah, the rocks, too.
And anything else your naughty little mind can come up with.
This is where I gently encourage you to use the internet and search for some sites that might explain all manner of interesting things to you. :)

Mentally, I'm pitching a rock at your head. It's a pointless, silly fantasy, but somehow...it makes me feel better. :nyanya:

sarettah

08-28-2005, 12:58 PM

I'm pitching a rock at your head.

You, you , you... you rock exploiter you :yowsa:

gigi

10-03-2005, 06:42 PM

I've found many other Wiccans in this biz, amazingly enough...or rather, not really amazingly as we tend to see sex as liberating and spiritual in nature. :)

Speaking of the Rede....I've done alot of research on Crowley...he fascinates me.

I have a copy of The Book of the Law which states:

"Do what thou Will shall be the whole of the law. Love under Will."

At first glance, most people read the first sentence as "Do whatever you want." This translation is incorrect.

What he goes on to explain, is that the 'do what thou will' part means DO WHAT YOU WERE SENT HERE TO DO...in other words, your 'Will'. And your will is rooted ('under') in love...

So, ultimately, you have no business but to do you WILL here on earth, and because your Will is rooted in Love, there is no worry that you will 'hurt' anyone...(that's IF you are fulfilling your WILL....if you do any harm, you aren't following your true Will)

Crowley succeeded in convincing the world he was crazy and....evil. He thrived on the attention of being someone who was eccentric. But, that shouldn't put people off, today, who are interesting in his writings....he truly was an amazing man....drugs and all.

Okay, so what Tarot decks d'you guys have/use? I collect them...haven't counted lately but I'd put it in the 20+/- decks area.....and yes, my Crowley deck is my favorite and most used deck. ;)

Nickatilynx

10-03-2005, 06:58 PM

Dravyk

10-03-2005, 07:12 PM

oh for the love of fuck!!!

LOLJust face it, Grand Poobah. You're never going to get a pure business board. ... Not unless you're willing to live with five posts a day. http://oprano.com/msgboard/images/smilies/sad.gif

Cleo

10-03-2005, 07:15 PM

Personal I like wicker furniture

gigi

10-03-2005, 07:17 PM

oh for the love of fuck!!!

LOL

aaaaaahahahahaha

:mf_seehea

Sin

10-03-2005, 07:21 PM

oh for the love of fuck!!!

LOL

*laughs SO hard at that response* That was awesome..

Trev

10-03-2005, 07:34 PM

Personal I like wicker furniture
You make me nervous... :unsure:

Nickatilynx

10-03-2005, 07:36 PM

My grandmother was a loonie...I mean thought she was a witch.

Wrote loads of stuff on folklore and shit....

I used to go for long walks with her and she'd tell me about Ghost stories and shit , really entertaining.....totally out there though... LOL

And Crowley was demented LOL

gigi

10-03-2005, 07:38 PM

And Crowley was demented LOL

There's a fine line.....

Nickatilynx

10-03-2005, 07:40 PM

There's a fine line.....

No there isn't!!!! ;-)))

He's was a fruit loop... LOL

Reading him is interesting.

Talking to my grandmother was very interesting.

But she was nuts. Nutcases are interesting LOL

gigi

10-03-2005, 07:43 PM

No there isn't!!!! ;-)))

He's was a fruit loop... LOL

Reading him is interesting.

Talking to my grandmother was very interesting.

But she was nuts. Nutcases are interesting LOL

Hahaha...I'll agree with you there! ;)