Why does custom programming cost so much ?

[sarettah]

Actual user/potential client question:

"Why is it going to cost so much and take so long? I mean, look at Microsoft Word. That does a lot more than what we are talking about and I can get that for 50 or 60 dollars."


Simple economics. Microsoft developed Word once and will sell a bazillion copies which will allow Microsoft to recover development costs after xx numbers of copies are sold. A custom system will be developed once and will only sell one copy therefore all development costs must be recouped off of that one copy.







(just in case you wanted to know :okthumb: )

[DrGuile]

Lol, what's with all the "Im a crappy programmer but that's ok" apolagetic threads?

Is someone feeling inadequate>?

[Mike AI]

Custom programing can be done inexpensively - programers are a dime a dozen.

The reality is the majority of "professionals" ( lawyers, accountants, programers, etc...) that end up focusing on the porn business are here for a reason.

The reason is they are incompetant, lazy, and/or stupid. The porn business is the lowest common denomenator. The fact is these "professional's" could not cut it in the real world, so they come to the porn world where they can bullshit their way through.

I have dealt first hand with many of them, 99% are a joke.

If you want professional help, find it OUTSIDE the industry. There is a reason some people prey upon the ignorant.

[sarettah]

lolololol.....

I am from outside the industry :)

http://www.hatterasdesigns.com/resume.htm

I suck at adult sites and traffic generation but I can design and code better than most.

Based on what you say there, then I guess you couldn't cut it out there in mainstream because as far as I know most (if not all) of your cash has come from adult stuff, especially during the heyday when it didn't take a fucking genius to drop a bunch of banners on a domain and make a million real quick :okthumb:

[sarettah]

Originally posted by DrGuile@Mar 25 2005, 12:12 PM
Lol, what's with all the "Im a crappy programmer but that's ok" apolagetic threads?

Is someone feeling inadequate>?
I'm a damn good programmer.. Nothing apologetic about them. It is merely an exercise in educating folks that want to do projects as to what I feel needs to be done for a medium to large scale project to be done successfully....

[RyanLanane]

Originally posted by sarettah@Mar 25 2005, 09:27 AM
lolololol.....

I am from outside the industry :)

http://www.hatterasdesigns.com/resume.htm

I suck at adult sites and traffic generation but I can design and code better than most.

Based on what you say there, then I guess you couldn't cut it out there in mainstream because as far as I know most (if not all) of your cash has come from adult stuff, especially during the heyday when it didn't take a fucking genius to drop a bunch of banners on a domain and make a million real quick :okthumb:

You don't know Mike to well, do you ?

He is a lawyer, but believe me he not only could but does make it in the real business world every day... .Trust me on this one, one of the smartest in this business along with Colin.

Ryan

[sarettah]

Originally posted by RyanLanane@Mar 25 2005, 12:32 PM
You don't know Mike to well, do you ?

He is a lawyer, but believe me he not only could but does make it in the real business world every day... .Trust me on this one, one of the smartest in this business along with Colin.

Ryan
I know Mike well enough... My answer was sarcasm...

To group everybody together like Mike does is one of his tactics. I am just throwing back what I got....

:okthumb:

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by sarettah@Mar 25 2005, 12:27 PM
lolololol.....

I am from outside the industry :)

http://www.hatterasdesigns.com/resume.htm

I suck at adult sites and traffic generation but I can design and code better than most.

Based on what you say there, then I guess you couldn't cut it out there in mainstream because as far as I know most (if not all) of your cash has come from adult stuff, especially during the heyday when it didn't take a fucking genius to drop a bunch of banners on a domain and make a million real quick :okthumb:
sarettah I was not refering to you in my post, just makinga point that most professional who service the porn biz over charge and under deliver.

My mainstream companies employ over 15 programers all who are more talented then anyone I have met in adult ( at least who freelance) and there salaries are inline with National averages.

A top PHP programmer is worth $35-$42k a year.

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 25 2005, 12:35 PM
A top PHP programmer is worth $35-$42k a year.
That be Florida prices :yowsa:

I researched out a couple of years back (2000) while thinking about moving permanently to Fort Myers.

At the time I was making about 75K salary and bonuses. Went down there, interviewed with several folk, had offers... All of them sucked.

Got back here and did some more research and discovered that I was looking in an area that paid about 20% below the average in the Midwest.

And PHP programmers, especially in adult, do tend to work cheaper..

But a programmer and a database designer are really two different animals (often occupying one brain) as HellPuppy pointed out in Ryan's thread. More and more the adult net is needing good backend database designers to pull of the stuff they want to pull off.

[sarettah]

A quote from one of my heroes that kind of emphasizes what I am trying to say about all this stuff:

http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=8696

Q: What is a big future issue in your opinion?
A: I've been doing a lot of work in enterprise architecture recently, and this model-driven stuff. And I think that one of the dangers is that in the last 10 years we've kind of de-emphasized requirements and design, and kind of overemphasized the tricks of the trade.

I think the reason people are suddenly kind of interested in architecture largely stems from the fact that we don't have a lot of design anymore. And so we have to re-invent design and call it architecture. I think that's going to be a big issue for the next five to 10 years.

[Mike AI]

Sarettah, the reality is PHP programers are a dime a dozen... especially now.

The realy money for programers is in becoming a program manager who manages his own team of programers. But even that will not bring 6 figures unless you have amazing skills and experience.

Programing is becoming a commodity - something to be outsourced to third world countries...

The future is in business model development. That was one of the hot topics at the Inc 500 convention.

[RyanLanane]

Originally posted by sarettah+Mar 25 2005, 09:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sarettah @ Mar 25 2005, 09:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RyanLanane@Mar 25 2005, 12:32 PM
You don't know Mike to well, do you ?

He is a lawyer, but believe me he not only could but does make it in the real business world every day... .Trust me on this one, one of the smartest in this business along with Colin.

Ryan
I know Mike well enough... My answer was sarcasm...

To group everybody together like Mike does is one of his tactics. I am just throwing back what I got....

:okthumb: [/b][/quote]

Didn't realize it was intended tounge in cheek - I do however agree with Mike's comment. The one programmer I had that busted ASS for me and did great work cost me $500 a week salary in the Midwest (central Illinois).

He worked 24 hours straight if I needed a project done and was on salary - I treated him well (bonuses) but his base salary was only around $24K per year and this guy outworked any programmer I have ever had as far as efficiency goes.

Every programmer besides him I have worked with when I owned my business was from the adult internet business... I think this is the point Mike was getting across - but not only with programmers, all positions in your company.

[RyanLanane]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 25 2005, 09:52 AM
Sarettah, the reality is PHP programers are a dime a dozen... especially now.

The realy money for programers is in becoming a program manager who manages his own team of programers. But even that will not bring 6 figures unless you have amazing skills and experience.

Programing is becoming a commodity - something to be outsourced to third world countries...

The future is in business model development. That was one of the hot topics at the Inc 500 convention.

The programmers we have on team right now are from 3rd world countries and work their asses off.... They are knowledgable and good at what they do, and can be work horses but they will over burden themselves and take on more than they can handle, saying "No problem I can get it all done" which of course leads to problems.

Mike, if you could do me a favor... Hit me up on ICQ at 241131497 - If i see your ICQ # on your profile I will hit you up, wanted to see exactly what you were doing with some of your old Amateur Stuff. It's possible we could work something out if you haven't sold the sites/content but it is dependant on a lot of different things.

No reason not to at least see if something could be worked out though ...

Ryan

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 25 2005, 12:52 PM
Sarettah, the reality is PHP programers are a dime a dozen... especially now.

The realy money for programers is in becoming a program manager who manages his own team of programers. But even that will not bring 6 figures unless you have amazing skills and experience.

Programing is becoming a commodity - something to be outsourced to third world countries...

The future is in business model development. That was one of the hot topics at the Inc 500 convention.
Past 3 years I have put six figures (not including to the right of the decimal point..lol) on my tax forms. And really, none of that was from side projects because I wasn't doing any. All of it was salary (currnt company doesn't do spit as bonuses)

And yes, I function as a program manager at times and NO, I did not do php during the daylight hours for the most part (we are ASP with SQL server on our web stuff although several of us are pushing to go php on apache just cause we can't stand dealing with IIS).

My junior most programmers bring down at least 50K.

My senior programmers are in the high 70's to low 80's and any one of us could walk and pick up more in this market fairly easily. Not as easily as a few years ago (screw Sprint and all the folks they put on the streets, they used to suck up the programmer population real quick making it easier for all of us to push the number higher) But with DST in town and several other fairly high profile tech companies in the area, the salaries tend to stay high (and I like that... :okthumb: )

[Mike AI]

I will hit you up in a few Ryan.

My amateur assets are being consolidated,and will be managed by a 3rd party company. After cutting overhead, they should become a nice cash cow.

Mooooooooooooooo

[RyanLanane]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 25 2005, 10:05 AM
I will hit you up in a few Ryan.

My amateur assets are being consolidated,and will be managed by a 3rd party company. After cutting overhead, they should become a nice cash cow.

Mooooooooooooooo

That was kind of what I intended to discuss with you :)

If it is a non exclusive agreement, feel free to hit me up... If nothing else say Hi and I'll add you to my list - You can tell me what shows to hit in Vegas next time I get to head out there ;)

[Mike AI]

Sarettah I would never give up those jobs then.

Programers are a very important part of tech companies, just like engineers... I have AMAZING respect and admiration for them. However, they rarely become wealthy. It is always the sales people who make the most money selling the wigits, not the people who invent them.

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 25 2005, 01:33 PM
It is always the sales people who make the most money selling the wigits, not the people who invent them.
I hate salespeople...lololol.... But, I agree, Sales makes the most money and they are in most instances, a necessary evil......

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by sarettah+Mar 25 2005, 01:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sarettah @ Mar 25 2005, 01:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mike AI@Mar 25 2005, 01:33 PM
It is always the sales people who make the most money selling the wigits, not the people who invent them.
I hate salespeople...lololol.... But, I agree, Sales makes the most money and they are in most instances, a necessary evil...... [/b][/quote]


I hate sales people as well!!!! Especially the ones who are obvious about it.

I can only handle the soft sell....

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 25 2005, 01:33 PM
Sarettah I would never give up those jobs then.

lolololol....I told my boss to fuck off yesterday afternoon (very loudly and publically) then booked out of there.

Had a phone message waiting by the time I got home asking if I would come in Monday so we could "iron out" whatever issues there were....

No matter how many times I quit, they keep calling me back :)

I have been lucky in at least one aspect of my life and that has been staying gainfully employed... I have never been unemployed except by choice...

Now, if I could just get this old "running my own business and making the big bucks" figured out I could die a happy man ;p

[The Other Steve]

How sad that the true worth and dignity of the working man is so under valued in some countries,

Before I got into this industry years ago I spent a couple of years driving a commuter bus - 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and I was making thousands more (even taking the exchange rate into consideration) than that poor slave of a programmer who is only being paid $24k.

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 25 2005, 12:17 PM
Custom programing can be done inexpensively - programers are a dime a dozen.

Back in the day (about 1985 or so) I had a boss tell me that once.

I reached in my pocket, pulled out a dime and tossed it to him and told him to go hire a dozen.....

lololol...It didn't stick, but did get me a raise :)

[sarettah]

Originally posted by RyanLanane@Mar 25 2005, 12:55 PM
Didn't realize it was intended tounge in cheek - I do however agree with Mike's comment. The one programmer I had that busted ASS for me and did great work cost me $500 a week salary in the Midwest (central Illinois).

Our data entry operators get more than that (not a whole lot more, but more) :blink:

[PornoDoggy]

Ever notice how everyone is overpaid but me and you? (BTW ... lately I've been wondering about you).

[Dravyk]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Mar 25 2005, 02:44 PM
Ever notice how everyone is overpaid but me and you? (BTW ... lately I've been wondering about you).
I'm always wondering about Sarettah. :)

[JerryW]

I've pulled in low 6 figures programming, but that was several years ago when I worked in the silicon valley (pre-dot.com boom/bomb). Stocks options were very nice bonus on top of very high 5 figure saleries and consulting was also a great gig. Low 6 figures working 10 months a year.

These days it's a lot tougher becaue with the internet you can go overseas and get cheap programmgers. But there's still a lot of companies that want on-site programmers, so there's always work if I want it.

Saretth, have you looked at Mono at all? Let's you run .net stuff on apache/unix systems.

[sarettah]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Mar 25 2005, 02:44 PM
Ever notice how everyone is overpaid but me and you? (BTW ... lately I've been wondering about you).
Just cause you're underpaid doesn't make us overpaid :okthumb:

[sarettah]

Originally posted by JerryW@Mar 25 2005, 03:33 PM
Saretth, have you looked at Mono at all? Let's you run .net stuff on apache/unix systems.
Nopers... But I will add it to my list of stuff to look at..... thanx

[Hell Puppy]

I believe what Mike is trying to point out is that guys trying to make a living as a programmer are what we call "employees". Employees make a living. They do not amass wealth. Even in a corporate job, programmers typically do not rise to become CEO's.

Guys who just spin code are a commodity, and a lot of those jobs are indeed going offshore.

But with that said, there will always be a decent paycheck available to those with solid skills when it comes to applying technology to meet business needs.

Despite all the outsourcing, market is actually improving for techies, most of these averages are up 10-20% from a year ago:

http://www.ticker.computerjobs.com/

[sarettah]

Hmm..according to this http://www.ticker.computerjobs.com/content...type=0&jcid=102 (http://www.ticker.computerjobs.com/content/ticker.aspx?type=0&jcid=102) Scripts programmers in Unix were at an average of 63K when that survey was done. I assume they are talking predominantly php there because they have perl, java and C all broken out by themselves........

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Mar 25 2005, 06:08 PM
Employees make a living. They do not amass wealth.

Unless you were a programmer for Microsoft back in the day........ :blink:

[Hell Puppy]

Originally posted by sarettah@Mar 25 2005, 06:19 PM
Hmm..according to this http://www.ticker.computerjobs.com/content...type=0&jcid=102 (http://www.ticker.computerjobs.com/content/ticker.aspx?type=0&jcid=102) Scripts programmers in Unix were at an average of 63K when that survey was done. I assume they are talking predominantly php there because they have perl, java and C all broken out by themselves........
More likely korn shell scripters. Still lots of demand for that, almost every big company still uses ksh to do their batch work.


PHP is pretty rare in corporate america. They dont like open source, it confuses them when they cant buy something.

[sarettah]

Ah... I see I see said the blind man :blink:

[Nickatilynx]

Interesting thread...I didn't read it til now cause I fucking hate programming and programmers!!!

Seriously , the biggest bunch of primadonnas in this business , they think they are soooooo fucking smart and they all tend to be smug bastards!!!!! Take my brother technick for example...total smug bastard!!! ...and sarettah ...same.



(((( ahhhh thats better , still on the no smoking , and needed to let off steam)))


Actually , in fact , I am lucky to have technick.

For example , go to a programmer and say:

"""" here is what I need:((( Insert plan so cunning you could nail a tail on it and call it a fox))"""

Most will either nick the idea and run with it , or bleat they can't get it done for 2 weeks (ie fucking never) or they will suddenly find it morally reprehensible (like I was asking them to experiment on a fetus)

Having a programmer for a brother I think has always given me an edge.

And being sober means when he says "Look at what this can do to that , does it have a pecuniary worth"- Its how he talks- he gets a sensible answer now instead of a vicious giggling taunting :)

[pushpills]

well, college programmers are cheap, but the problem is alot of times they put unimpotant things like homework girls and partying before what I tell them to do to earn this weeks beer money.

for most stuff it's worth it to spend extra dollars to have a fluent english speaking person who has no real life outside programming do your work. also, the slantier the eyes, the better the programmer.

[nlphoto]

Originally posted by pushpills@Mar 25 2005, 07:15 PM
also, the slantier the eyes, the better the programmer.


Note to self: buy PP a one month membership to a Bukkake site for XMas...

:blink: