Wht if Bush was right about Iraq all the time?

[Mike AI]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/brown/cst-nws-brown01.html


What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?

February 1, 2005

BY MARK BROWN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST Advertisement






Maybe you're like me and have opposed the Iraq war since before the shooting started -- not to the point of joining any peace protests, but at least letting people know where you stood.



You didn't change your mind when our troops swept quickly into Baghdad or when you saw the rabble that celebrated the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue, figuring that little had been accomplished and that the tough job still lay ahead.

Despite your misgivings, you didn't demand the troops be brought home immediately afterward, believing the United States must at least try to finish what it started to avoid even greater bloodshed. And while you cheered Saddam's capture, you couldn't help but thinking I-told-you-so in the months that followed as the violence continued to spread and the death toll mounted.

By now, you might have even voted against George Bush -- a second time -- to register your disapproval.

But after watching Sunday's election in Iraq and seeing the first clear sign that freedom really may mean something to the Iraqi people, you have to be asking yourself: What if it turns out Bush was right, and we were wrong?

It's hard to swallow, isn't it?

Americans cross own barrier



If you fit the previously stated profile, I know you're fighting the idea, because I am, too. And if you were with the president from the start, I've already got your blood boiling.

For those who've been in the same boat with me, we don't need to concede the point just yet. There's a long way to go. But I think we have to face the possibility.

I won't say that it had never occurred to me previously, but it's never gone through my mind as strongly as when I watched the television coverage from Iraq that showed long lines of people risking their lives by turning out to vote, honest looks of joy on so many of their faces.

Some CNN guest expert was opining Monday that the Iraqi people crossed a psychological barrier by voting and getting a taste of free choice (setting aside the argument that they only did so under orders from their religious leaders).

I think it's possible that some of the American people will have crossed a psychological barrier as well.

Deciding democracy's worth



On the other side of that barrier is a concept some of us have had a hard time swallowing:

Maybe the United States really can establish a peaceable democratic government in Iraq, and if so, that would be worth something.

Would it be worth all the money we've spent? Certainly.

Would it be worth all the lives that have been lost? That's the more difficult question, and while I reserve judgment on that score until such a day arrives, it seems probable that history would answer yes to that as well.

I don't want to get carried away in the moment.

Going to war still sent so many terrible messages to the world.

Most of the obstacles to success in Iraq are all still there, the ones that have always led me to believe that we would eventually be forced to leave the country with our tail tucked between our legs. (I've maintained from the start that if you were impressed by the demonstrations in the streets of Baghdad when we arrived, wait until you see how they celebrate our departure, no matter the circumstances.)

In and of itself, the voting did nothing to end the violence. The forces trying to regain the power they have lost -- and the outside elements supporting them -- will be no less determined to disrupt our efforts and to drive us out.

Somebody still has to find a way to bring the Sunnis into the political process before the next round of elections at year's end. The Iraqi government still must develop the capacity to protect its people.

And there seems every possibility that this could yet end in civil war the day we leave or with Iraq becoming an Islamic state every bit as hostile to our national interests as was Saddam.

Penance could be required



But on Sunday, we caught a glimpse of the flip side. We could finally see signs that a majority of the Iraqi people perceive something to be gained from this brave new world we are forcing on them.

Instead of making the elections a further expression of "Yankee Go Home," their participation gave us hope that all those soldiers haven't died in vain.

Obviously, I'm still curious to see if Bush is willing to allow the Iraqis to install a government that is free to kick us out or to oppose our other foreign policy efforts in the region.

So is the rest of the world.

For now, though, I think we have to cut the president some slack about a timetable for his exit strategy.

If it turns out Bush was right all along, this is going to require some serious penance.

Maybe I'd have to vote Republican in 2008.

[Nickatilynx]

What about when we eventually meet I shoved a shaved wombat up your ass?

Interesting to discuss , but doubtful if it will ever happen.


;-)))

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Feb 1 2005, 05:44 PM
What about when we eventually meet I shoved a shaved wombat up your ass?

Interesting to discuss , but doubtful if it will ever happen.


;-)))


Can you send me a photo of the shaved wombat?


:lol:

[Nickatilynx]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Feb 1 2005, 02:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Feb 1 2005, 02:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Feb 1 2005, 05:44 PM
What about when we eventually meet I shoved a shaved wombat up your ass?

Interesting to discuss , but doubtful if it will ever happen.


;-)))


Can you send me a photo of the shaved wombat?


:lol: [/b][/quote]
The wombat at this time cannot be found , it is fictious nonsense used merely as a ruse to get hold of your ass.

Much the same way as the WMDs were fictious and a rouse.

;-))

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx+Feb 1 2005, 05:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nickatilynx @ Feb 1 2005, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 1 2005, 02:44 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Feb 1 2005, 05:44 PM
What about when we eventually meet I shoved a shaved wombat up your ass?

Interesting to discuss , but doubtful if it will ever happen.


;-)))


Can you send me a photo of the shaved wombat?


:lol:
The wombat at this time cannot be found , it is fictious nonsense used merely as a ruse to get hold of your ass.

Much the same way as the WMDs were fictious and a rouse.

;-)) [/b][/quote]


Yes but unlike your ruse, Bush was successful.

:lol:

[Nickatilynx]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Feb 1 2005, 03:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Feb 1 2005, 03:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Feb 1 2005, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 1 2005, 02:44 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Feb 1 2005, 05:44 PM
What about when we eventually meet I shoved a shaved wombat up your ass?

Interesting to discuss , but doubtful if it will ever happen.


;-)))


Can you send me a photo of the shaved wombat?


:lol:
The wombat at this time cannot be found , it is fictious nonsense used merely as a ruse to get hold of your ass.

Much the same way as the WMDs were fictious and a rouse.

;-))


Yes but unlike your ruse, Bush was successful.

:lol: [/b][/quote]
Hey , you wanted to see pics of the wombat.

I would have found a FINE wombat ;-)

[Mike AI]

I saw a lot of photos and videos of Iraqi WMD too!!


:ph34r:

[NickPapageorgio]

Well that article proves one thing and one thing only...


































Fox news has that poor writers family tied up in a basement somewhere. :P

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by NickPapageorgio@Feb 1 2005, 07:41 PM
Well that article proves one thing and one thing only...


































Fox news has that poor writers family tied up in a basement somewhere. :P


Well at least this guys is a true liberal, and open minded.

Most of the liberals I know won't give credit to Bush for anything. They cannot even contemplate Bush being right about anything.

Most liberals live in their own realities....


and to that, I thank God!!

[NickPapageorgio]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Feb 1 2005, 04:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Feb 1 2005, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-NickPapageorgio@Feb 1 2005, 07:41 PM
Well that article proves one thing and one thing only...


































Fox news has that poor writers family tied up in a basement somewhere. :P


Well at least this guys is a true liberal, and open minded.

Most of the liberals I know won't give credit to Bush for anything. They cannot even contemplate Bush being right about anything.

Most liberals live in their own realities....


and to that, I thank God!! [/b][/quote]
See I don't really think I fit into either category. I wish I did so I could feel all warm and fuzzy and feel like I belong to something bigger than me but I don't. Unlike other liberals, who are all about feeling sorry for the Iraqis and the terror they lived in under Saddam, I couldn't give two shits. lol...fuck those people. I would have been just as happy had they all blown each other to bits. Saddam could have gassed 1,000,000 more of them and I wouldn't have blinked an eye. Sad? Sure. My business? Not really. I have a problem with the US as a nation who can't even police itself, policing the world. I have a problem with my government outright lying to me about things that I feel I as a tax paying, blue blooded american have the right to know about. I guess it's for the best though. They don't want idiots like me to have too much information.

Good read though. I hope for nothing more than a smooth transition in Iraq. Looks like they made the first step.

[Mike AI]

This is nice NickP, and I agree with you - but I have a dirty little secret that you may find distasteful, even uncomfortable.

The WMD/Hummanitarian issue are only secondary issue to the one that trumps everything.

OIL

Free flow of oil = economic security.

This is the policy of the US, and will be for a long time - not matter WHO is President.

Past policy was to support dictators in the middle east. This has pretty much backfired on us since Iran in the 1970s. Saudi Arabia is just as bad, Iraq, etc...
The whole region is a mess. But they have the oil which is important for the US and hence world economy.

Bush is trying another angle, democracy. Will it work? Is it just window dressing for a new puppet gov't? These are the questions.

I do not think you understand the economic realities. What would happen if mid east oil was not available to market? Imagine a world where oil was $1,000 a barrel? The US economy would be devistated in months, it would make the great depression look like the good-old days.

NickP, I know this is a lot to chew on. But it is the reality we live in.

Nick the Pikey - You of all people should appreciate the strategy Bush has used.

[NickPapageorgio]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 1 2005, 05:57 PM
This is nice NickP, and I agree with you - but I have a dirty little secret that you may find distasteful, even uncomfortable.

The WMD/Hummanitarian issue are only secondary issue to the one that trumps everything.

OIL

Free flow of oil = economic security.

This is the policy of the US, and will be for a long time - not matter WHO is President.

Past policy was to support dictators in the middle east. This has pretty much backfired on us since Iran in the 1970s. Saudi Arabia is just as bad, Iraq, etc...
The whole region is a mess. But they have the oil which is important for the US and hence world economy.

Bush is trying another angle, democracy. Will it work? Is it just window dressing for a new puppet gov't? These are the questions.

I do not think you understand the economic realities. What would happen if mid east oil was not available to market? Imagine a world where oil was $1,000 a barrel? The US economy would be devistated in months, it would make the great depression look like the good-old days.

NickP, I know this is a lot to chew on. But it is the reality we live in.

Nick the Pikey - You of all people should appreciate the strategy Bush has used.
But what was the thing which prodded it is my question? I understand our need to sustain our own economy, even though I believe there are viable options besides oil that could be being used as we speak but big oil lobbyist just won't have that now will they?

My question is, why? Wasn't the oil flowing just fine? And why not just come out and say that instead of this whole scare tactic shit? Why does gas cost more now, even though we have all this oil "secured", than it did before we went in?

[OldJeff]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 1 2005, 08:57 PM
This is nice NickP, and I agree with you - but I have a dirty little secret that you may find distasteful, even uncomfortable.

The WMD/Hummanitarian issue are only secondary issue to the one that trumps everything.

OIL

Free flow of oil = economic security.

This is the policy of the US, and will be for a long time - not matter WHO is President.

Past policy was to support dictators in the middle east. This has pretty much backfired on us since Iran in the 1970s. Saudi Arabia is just as bad, Iraq, etc...
The whole region is a mess. But they have the oil which is important for the US and hence world economy.

Bush is trying another angle, democracy. Will it work? Is it just window dressing for a new puppet gov't? These are the questions.

I do not think you understand the economic realities. What would happen if mid east oil was not available to market? Imagine a world where oil was $1,000 a barrel? The US economy would be devistated in months, it would make the great depression look like the good-old days.

NickP, I know this is a lot to chew on. But it is the reality we live in.

Nick the Pikey - You of all people should appreciate the strategy Bush has used.
This post is why, even though I disagree with you when it comes to most things "Bush", I respect most of what you say Mike.

You at least will look beyond the bullshit political spin.

IMO the elections in Iraq are mearly a nice side effect that the republican party can point to and say "look what we did".

And Nick, the reason that Oil is high priced is because it should be, based on inflation since the 50's gas is by far disproportionatly low to everything else we buy.

Our gas prices should be in the neighborhood of 5 dollars a gallon.

I do agree that a better long term plan would be to would be the development of alternative energy sources, but you are never going to have that with "an oil man" in the white house.

[JR]

Originally posted by NickPapageorgio@Feb 1 2005, 06:42 PM


My question is, why? Wasn't the oil flowing just fine? And why not just come out and say that instead of this whole scare tactic shit? Why does gas cost more now, even though we have all this oil "secured", than it did before we went in?
why?

simple.

the second greatest window of opportunity since Saddam took power. the first one was missed in the spirit of international peace and cooperation when NATO stopped at Iraq's border during desert storm.

[Ruin]

Ha! Mike AI, are you Bush curious?

No really, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Bush came into office with a weekend war in Iraq on his agenda...he found a reason to pick a fight, and went in half-cocked.

What? No WMD's, no nuclear program? Well gee golly, I'm as surprised as the next fella! But wait, what I meant to say is that we're there to spread democracy! And Saddam was bad m'kay?

What Bush has managed to do is create a wonderful training camp for the next generation of terrorists. We will be feeling the love from this misadveture for decades to come.

Where diplomacy would have done the trick, he chose to fight. And out came the flags!

If this is such a noble mission, why aren't any of the Bush family serving? Why aren't his daughters serving in some branch of the armed services? If we're so goddamned concerned about democracy and human rights, why aren't we in China? Burma? Sudan? Tibet?

Don't go soft, keep hate alive. Fuck Bush.

[JR]

Originally posted by Ruin@Feb 2 2005, 09:58 AM
Ha! Mike AI, are you Bush curious?

No really, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Bush came into office with a weekend war in Iraq on his agenda...he found a reason to pick a fight, and went in half-cocked.

What? No WMD's, no nuclear program? Well gee golly, I'm as surprised as the next fella! But wait, what I meant to say is that we're there to spread democracy! And Saddam was bad m'kay?

What Bush has managed to do is create a wonderful training camp for the next generation of terrorists. We will be feeling the love from this misadveture for decades to come.

Where diplomacy would have done the trick, he chose to fight. And out came the flags!

If this is such a noble mission, why aren't any of the Bush family serving? Why aren't his daughters serving in some branch of the armed services? If we're so goddamned concerned about democracy and human rights, why aren't we in China? Burma? Sudan? Tibet?

Don't go soft, keep hate alive. Fuck Bush.
nothing you said had anything to do with what Mike said.

it was about oil.

it was about planting one more democracy in the middle of the basket case that the middle east is.

nothing "noble" about it and the romantic idea of "doing what is right for the benefit of mankind" has nothing to do with the more important issue of "doing what is right because its in a countries national interest to do so"

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by JR+Feb 2 2005, 01:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JR @ Feb 2 2005, 01:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Ruin@Feb 2 2005, 09:58 AM
Ha! Mike AI, are you Bush curious?

No really, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Bush came into office with a weekend war in Iraq on his agenda...he found a reason to pick a fight, and went in half-cocked.

What? No WMD's, no nuclear program? Well gee golly, I'm as surprised as the next fella! But wait, what I meant to say is that we're there to spread democracy! And Saddam was bad m'kay?

What Bush has managed to do is create a wonderful training camp for the next generation of terrorists. We will be feeling the love from this misadveture for decades to come.

Where diplomacy would have done the trick, he chose to fight. And out came the flags!

If this is such a noble mission, why aren't any of the Bush family serving? Why aren't his daughters serving in some branch of the armed services? If we're so goddamned concerned about democracy and human rights, why aren't we in China? Burma? Sudan? Tibet?

Don't go soft, keep hate alive. Fuck Bush.
nothing you said had anything to do with what Mike said.

it was about oil.

it was about planting one more democracy in the middle of the basket case that the middle east is.

nothing "noble" about it and the romantic idea of "doing what is right for the benefit of mankind" has nothing to do with the more important issue of "doing what is right because its in a countries national interest to do so" [/b][/quote]


Ruin is much more interesting when he posts about things he knows about, like sextracker!

[grimm]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Feb 1 2005, 03:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Feb 1 2005, 03:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Feb 1 2005, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 1 2005, 02:44 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Feb 1 2005, 05:44 PM
What about when we eventually meet I shoved a shaved wombat up your ass?

Interesting to discuss , but doubtful if it will ever happen.


;-)))


Can you send me a photo of the shaved wombat?


:lol:
The wombat at this time cannot be found , it is fictious nonsense used merely as a ruse to get hold of your ass.

Much the same way as the WMDs were fictious and a rouse.

;-))


Yes but unlike your ruse, Bush was successful.

:lol: [/b][/quote]
no WMD. no Wombats. same deal

[JR]

Originally posted by grimm+Feb 2 2005, 10:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (grimm @ Feb 2 2005, 10:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 1 2005, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Feb 1 2005, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 1 2005, 02:44 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Feb 1 2005, 05:44 PM
What about when we eventually meet I shoved a shaved wombat up your ass?

Interesting to discuss , but doubtful if it will ever happen.


;-)))


Can you send me a photo of the shaved wombat?


:lol:
The wombat at this time cannot be found , it is fictious nonsense used merely as a ruse to get hold of your ass.

Much the same way as the WMDs were fictious and a rouse.

;-))


Yes but unlike your ruse, Bush was successful.

:lol:
no WMD. no Wombats. same deal [/b][/quote]
http://www.2docstock.com/photos/217.jpg

[Ruin]

Not more interesting, just more sexy.

JR, I agree totally, (about national interest, not about me missing Mikes point). "Commandante Zero" (Sandinista whack job) put it best when he said that "The states doesn't have friend or enemies, just interests."

And oh yeah, fuck ST. Interesting?

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Ruin@Feb 2 2005, 01:43 PM
Not more interesting, just more sexy.

JR, I agree totally, (about national interest, not about me missing Mikes point). "Commandante Zero" (Sandinista whack job) put it best when he said that "The states doesn't have friend or enemies, just interests."

And oh yeah, fuck ST. Interesting?


That is a quote for George Washington's farewell address. Nations have no permanant friends or enemies, only permanant interests.