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Mike AI
01-18-2005, 02:58 PM
Media's coverage has distorted world's view of Iraqi reality



By LTC Tim Ryan
SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Tuesday, January 18, 2005
Editors' Note: LTC Tim Ryan is Commander, Task Force 2-12 Cavalry, First Cavalry Division in Iraq. He led troops into battle in Fallujah late last year and is now involved in security operations for the upcoming elections. He wrote the following during "down time" after the Fallujah operation. His views are his own.

All right, I've had enough. I am tired of reading distorted and grossly exaggerated stories from major news organizations about the "failures" in the war in Iraq. "The most trusted name in news" and a long list of others continue to misrepresent the scale of events in Iraq. Print and video journalists are covering only a fraction of the events in Iraq and, more often than not, the events they cover are only negative.

The inaccurate picture they paint has distorted the world view of the daily realities in Iraq. The result is a further erosion of international support for the United States' efforts there, and a strengthening of the insurgents' resolve and recruiting efforts while weakening our own. Through their incomplete, uninformed and unbalanced reporting, many members of the media covering the war in Iraq are aiding and abetting the enemy.

The fact is the Coalition is making steady progress in Iraq, but not without ups and downs. So why is it that no matter what events unfold, good or bad, the media highlights mostly the negative aspects of the event? The journalistic adage, "If it bleeds, it leads," still applies in Iraq, but why only when it's American blood?

As a recent example, the operation in Fallujah delivered an absolutely devastating blow to the insurgency. Though much smaller in scope, clearing Fallujah of insurgents arguably could equate to the Allies' breakout from the hedgerows in France during World War II. In both cases, our troops overcame a well-prepared and solidly entrenched enemy and began what could be the latter's last stand. In Fallujah, the enemy death toll has exceeded 1,500 and still is climbing. Put one in the win column for the good guys, right? Wrong. As soon as there was nothing negative to report about Fallujah, the media shifted its focus to other parts of the country.

More recently, a major news agency's website lead read: "Suicide Bomber Kills Six in Baghdad" and "Seven Marines Die in Iraq Clashes." True, yes. Comprehensive, no. Did the author of this article bother to mention that Coalition troops killed 50 or so terrorists while incurring those seven losses? Of course not. Nor was there any mention about the substantial progress these offensive operations continue to achieve in defeating the insurgents. Unfortunately, this sort of incomplete reporting has become the norm for the media, whose poor job of presenting a complete picture of what is going on in Iraq borders on being criminal.

Much of the problem is about perspective, putting things in scale and balance. What if domestic news outlets continually fed American readers headlines like: "Bloody Week on U.S. Highways: Some 700 Killed," or "More Than 900 Americans Die Weekly from Obesity-Related Diseases"? Both of these headlines might be true statistically, but do they really represent accurate pictures of the situations? What if you combined all of the negatives to be found in the state of Texas and used them as an indicator of the quality of life for all Texans? Imagine the headlines: "Anti-law Enforcement Elements Spread Robbery, Rape and Murder through Texas Cities." For all intents and purposes, this statement is true for any day of any year in any state. True — yes, accurate — yes, but in context with the greater good taking place — no! After a year or two of headlines like these, more than a few folks back in Texas and the rest of the U.S. probably would be ready to jump off of a building and end it all. So, imagine being an American in Iraq right now.

From where I sit in Iraq, things are not all bad right now. In fact, they are going quite well. We are not under attack by the enemy; on the contrary, we are taking the fight to him daily and have him on the ropes. In the distance, I can hear the repeated impacts of heavy artillery and five-hundred-pound bombs hitting their targets. The occasional tank main gun report and the staccato rhythm of a Marine Corps LAV or Army Bradley Fighting Vehicle's 25-millimeter cannon provide the bass line for a symphony of destruction. As elements from all four services complete the absolute annihilation of the insurgent forces remaining in Fallujah, the area around the former insurgent stronghold is more peaceful than it has been for more than a year.

The number of attacks in the greater Al Anbar Province is down by at least 70-80 percent from late October — before Operation Al Fajar began. The enemy in this area is completely defeated, but not completely gone. Final eradication of the pockets of insurgents will take some time, as it always does, but the fact remains that the central geographic stronghold of the insurgents is now under friendly control. That sounds a lot like success to me. Given all of this, why don't the papers lead with "Coalition Crushes Remaining Pockets of Insurgents" or "Enemy Forces Resort to Suicide Bombings of Civilians"? This would paint a far more accurate picture of the enemy's predicament over here. Instead, headlines focus almost exclusively on our hardships.

What about the media's portrayal of the enemy? Why do these ruthless murderers, kidnappers and thieves get a pass when it comes to their actions? What did the the media show or tell us about Margaret Hassoon, the director of C.A.R.E. in Iraq and an Iraqi citizen, who was kidnapped, brutally tortured and left disemboweled on a street in Fallujah? Did anyone in the press show these images over and over to emphasize the moral failings of the enemy as they did with the soldiers at Abu Ghuraib? Did anyone show the world how this enemy had huge stockpiles of weapons in schools and mosques, or how he used these protected places as sanctuaries for planning and fighting in Fallujah and the rest of Iraq? Are people of the world getting the complete story? The answer again is no! What the world got instead were repeated images of a battle-weary Marine who made a quick decision to use lethal force and who immediately was tried in the world press. Was this one act really illustrative of the overall action in Fallujah? No, but the Marine video clip was shown an average of four times each hour on just about every major TV news channel for a week. This is how the world views our efforts over here and stories like this without a counter continually serve as propaganda victories for the enemy. Al Jazeera isn't showing the film of the CARE worker, but is showing the clip of the Marine. Earlier this year, the Iraqi government banned Al Jazeera from the country for its inaccurate reporting. Wonder where they get their information now? Well, if you go to the Internet, you'll find a web link from the Al Jazeera home page to CNN's home page. Very interesting.

The operation in Fallujah is only one of the recent examples of incomplete coverage of the events in Iraq. The battle in Najaf last August provides another. Television and newspapers spilled a continuous stream of images and stories about the destruction done to the sacred city, and of all the human suffering allegedly brought about by the hands of the big, bad Americans. These stories and the lack of anything to counter them gave more fuel to the fire of anti-Americanism that burns in this part of the world. Those on the outside saw the Coalition portrayed as invaders or oppressors, killing hapless Iraqis who, one was given to believe, simply were trying to defend their homes and their Muslim way of life.

Reality couldn't have been farther from the truth. What noticeably was missing were accounts of the atrocities committed by the Mehdi Militia — Muqtada Al Sadr's band of henchmen. While the media was busy bashing the Coalition, Muqtada's boys were kidnapping policemen, city council members and anyone else accused of supporting the Coalition or the new government, trying them in a kangaroo court based on Islamic Shari'a law, then brutally torturing and executing them for their "crimes." What the media didn't show or write about were the two hundred-plus headless bodies found in the main mosque there, or the body that was put into a bread oven and baked. Nor did they show the world the hundreds of thousands of mortar, artillery and small arms rounds found within the "sacred" walls of the mosque. Also missing from the coverage was the huge cache of weapons found in Muqtada's "political" headquarters nearby. No, none of this made it to the screen or to print. All anyone showed were the few chipped tiles on the dome of the mosque and discussion centered on how we, the Coalition, had somehow done wrong. Score another one for the enemy's propaganda machine.

Now, compare the Najaf example to the coverage and debate ad nauseam of the Abu Ghuraib Prison affair. There certainly is no justification for what a dozen or so soldiers did there, but unbalanced reporting led the world to believe that the actions of the dozen were representative of the entire military. This has had an incredibly negative effect on Middle Easterners' already sagging opinion of the U.S. and its military. Did anyone show the world images of the 200 who were beheaded and mutilated in Muqtada's Shari'a Law court, or spend the next six months talking about how horrible all of that was? No, of course not. Most people don't know that these atrocities even happened. It's little wonder that many people here want us out and would vote someone like Muqtada Al Sadr into office given the chance — they never see the whole truth. Strange, when the enemy is the instigator the media does not flash images across the screens of televisions in the Middle East as they did with Abu Ghuraib. Is it because the beheaded bodies might offend someone? If so, then why do we continue see photos of the naked human pyramid over and over?

So, why doesn't the military get more involved in showing the media the other side of the story? The answer is they do. Although some outfits are better than others, the Army and other military organizations today understand the importance of getting out the story — the whole story — and trains leaders to talk to the press. There is a saying about media and the military that goes: "The only way the media is going to tell a good story is if you give them one to tell." This doesn't always work as planned. Recently, when a Coalition spokesman tried to let TV networks in on opening moves in the Fallujah operation, they misconstrued the events for something they were not and then blamed the military for their gullibility. CNN recently aired a "special report" in which the cable network accused the military of lying to it and others about the beginning of the Fallujah operation. The incident referred to took place in October when a Marine public affairs officer called media representatives and told them that an operation was about to begin. Reporters rushed to the outskirts of Fallujah to see what they assumed was going to be the beginning of the main attack on the city. As it turned out, what they saw were tactical "feints" designed to confuse the enemy about the timing of the main attack, then planned to take place weeks later.

Once the network realized that major combat operations wouldn't start for several more weeks, CNN alleged that the Marines had used them as a tool for their deception operation. Now, they say they want answers from the military and the administration on the matter. The reality appears to be that in their zeal to scoop their competition, CNN and others took the information they were given and turned it into what they wanted it to be. Did the military lie to the media: no. It is specifically against regulations to provide misinformation to the press. However, did the military planners anticipate that reporters would take the ball and run with it, adding to the overall deception plan? Possibly. Is that unprecedented or illegal? Of course not.

CNN and others say they were duped by the military in this and other cases. Yet, they never seem to be upset by the undeniable fact that the enemy manipulates them with a cunning that is almost worthy of envy. You can bet that terrorist leader Abu Musab Al Zarqawi has his own version of a public affairs officer and it is evident that he uses him to great effect. Each time Zarqawi's group executes a terrorist act such as a beheading or a car bomb, they have a prepared statement ready to post on their website and feed to the press. Over-eager reporters take the bait, hook, line and sinker, and report it just as they got it.

Did it ever occur to the media that this type of notoriety is just what the terrorists want and need? Every headline they grab is a victory for them. Those who have read the ancient Chinese military theorist and army general Sun Tzu will recall the philosophy of "Kill one, scare ten thousand" as the basic theory behind the strategy of terrorism. Through fear, the terrorist can then manipulate the behavior of the masses. The media allows the terrorist to use relatively small but spectacular events that directly affect very few, and spread them around the world to scare millions. What about the thousands of things that go right every day and are never reported? Complete a multi-million-dollar sewer project and no one wants to cover it, but let one car bomb go off and it makes headlines. With each headline, the enemy scores another point and the good-guys lose one. This method of scoring slowly is eroding domestic and international support while fueling the enemy's cause.

I believe one of the reasons for this shallow and subjective reporting is that many reporters never actually cover the events they report on. This is a point of growing concern within the Coalition. It appears many members of the media are hesitant to venture beyond the relative safety of the so-called "International Zone" in downtown Baghdad, or similar "safe havens" in other large cities. Because terrorists and other thugs wisely target western media members and others for kidnappings or attacks, the westerners stay close to their quarters. This has the effect of holding the media captive in cities and keeps them away from the broader truth that lies outside their view. With the press thus cornered, the terrorists easily feed their unwitting captives a thin gruel of anarchy, one spoonful each day. A car bomb at the entry point to the International Zone one day, a few mortars the next, maybe a kidnapping or two thrown in. All delivered to the doorsteps of those who will gladly accept it without having to leave their hotel rooms — how convenient.

The scene is repeated all too often: an attack takes place in Baghdad and the morning sounds are punctuated by a large explosion and a rising cloud of smoke. Sirens wail in the distance and photographers dash to the scene a few miles away. Within the hour, stern-faced reporters confidently stare into the camera while standing on the balcony of their tenth-floor Baghdad hotel room, their back to the city and a distant smoke plume rising behind them. More mayhem in Gotham City they intone, and just in time for the morning news. There is a transparent reason why the majority of car bombings and other major events take place before noon Baghdad-time; any later and the event would miss the start of the morning news cycle on the U.S. east coast. These terrorists aren't stupid; they know just what to do to scare the masses and when to do it. An important key to their plan is manipulation of the news media. But, at least the reporters in Iraq are gathering information and filing their stories, regardless of whether or the stories are in perspective. Much worse are the "talking heads" who sit in studios or offices back home and pontificate about how badly things are going when they never have been to Iraq and only occasionally leave Manhattan.

Almost on a daily basis, newspapers, periodicals and airwaves give us negative views about the premises for this war and its progress. It seems that everyone from politicians to pop stars are voicing their unqualified opinions on how things are going. Recently, I saw a Rolling Stone magazine and in bold print on the cover was, "Iraq on Fire; Dispatches from the Lost War." Now, will someone please tell me who at Rolling Stone or just about any other "news" outlet is qualified to make a determination as to when all is lost and it's time to throw in the towel? In reality, such flawed reporting serves only to misshape world opinion and bolster the enemy's position. Each enemy success splashed across the front pages and TV screens of the world not only emboldens them, but increases their ability to recruit more money and followers.

So what are the credentials of these self proclaimed "experts"? The fact is that most of those on whom we rely for complete and factual accounts have little or no experience or education in counter-insurgency operations or in nation-building to support their assessments. How would they really know if things are going well or not? War is an ugly thing with many unexpected twists and turns. Who among them is qualified to say if this one is worse than any other at this point? What would they have said in early 1942 about our chances of winning World War II? Was it a lost cause too? How much have these "experts" studied warfare and counter-insurgencies in particular? Have they ever read Roger Trinquier's treatise Modern Warfare: A French View on Counter-insurgency (1956)? He is one of the few French military guys who got it right. The Algerian insurgency of the 1950s and the Iraq insurgency have many similarities. What about Napoleon's campaigns in Sardinia in 1805-07? Again, there are a lot of similarities to this campaign. Have they studied that and contrasted the strategies? Or, have they even read Mao Zedung's theories on insurgencies, or Nygen Giap's, or maybe Che' Gueverra's? Have they seen any of Sun Tzu's work lately? Who are these guys? It's time to start studying, folks. If a journalist doesn't recognize the names on this list, he or she probably isn't qualified to assess the state of this or any other campaign's progress.

Worse yet, why in the world would they seek opinion from someone who probably knows even less than they do about the state of affairs in Iraq? It sells commercials, I suppose. But, I find it amazing that some people are more apt to listen to a movie star's or rock singer's view on how we should prosecute world affairs than to someone whose profession it is to know how these things should go. I play the guitar, but Bruce Springsteen doesn't listen to me play. Why should I be subjected to his views on the validity of the war? By profession, he's a guitar player. Someone remind me what it is that makes Sean Penn an expert on anything. It seems that anyone who has a dissenting view is first to get in front of the camera. I'm all for freedom of speech, but let's talk about things we know. Otherwise, television news soon could have about as much credibility as "The Bachelor" has for showing us truly loving couples.

Also bothersome are references by "experts" on how "long" this war is taking. I've read that in the world of manufacturing, you can have only two of the following three qualities when developing a product — cheap, fast or good. You can produce something cheap and fast, but it won't be good; good and fast, but it won't be cheap; good and cheap, but it won't be fast. In this case, we want the result to be good and we want it at the lowest cost in human lives. Given this set of conditions, one can expect this war is to take a while, and rightfully so. Creating a democracy in Iraq not only will require a change in the political system, but the economic system as well. Study of examples of similar socio-economic changes that took place in countries like Chile, Bulgaria, Serbia, Russia and other countries with oppressive Socialist dictatorships shows that it took seven to ten years to move those countries to where they are now. There are many lessons to be learned from these transfomations, the most important of which is that change doesn't come easily, even without an insurgency going on. Maybe the experts should take a look at all of the work that has gone into stabilizing Bosnia-Herzegovina over the last 10 years. We are just at the eighteen-month mark in Iraq, a place far more oppressive than Bosnia ever was. If previous examples are any comparison, there will be no quick solutions here, but that should be no surprise to an analyst who has done his or her homework.

This war is not without its tragedies; none ever are. The key to the enemy's success is use of his limited assets to gain the greatest influence over the masses. The media serves as the glass through which a relatively small event can be magnified to international proportions, and the enemy is exploiting this with incredible ease. There is no good news to counteract the bad, so the enemy scores a victory almost every day. In its zeal to get to the hot spots and report the latest bombing, the media is missing the reality of a greater good going on in Iraq. We seldom are seen doing anything right or positive in the news. People believe what they see, and what people of the world see almost on a daily basis is negative. How could they see it any other way? These images and stories, out of scale and context to the greater good going on over here, are just the sort of thing the terrorists are looking for. This focus on the enemy's successes strengthens his resolve and aids and abets his cause. It's the American image abroad that suffers in the end.

Ironically, the press freedom that we have brought to this part of the world is providing support for the enemy we fight. I obviously think it's a disgrace when many on whom the world relies for news paint such an incomplete picture of what actually has happened. Much too much is ignored or omitted. I am confident that history will prove our cause right in this war, but by the time that happens, the world might be so steeped in the gloom of ignorance we won't recognize victory when we achieve it.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Postscript: I have had my staff aggressively pursue media coverage for all sorts of events that tell the other side of the story only to have them turned down or ignored by the press in Baghdad. Strangely, I found it much easier to lure the Arab media to a "non-lethal" event than the western outlets. Open a renovated school or a youth center and I could always count on Al-Iraqia or even Al-Jazeera to show up, but no western media ever showed up – ever. Now I did have a pretty dangerous sector, the Abu Ghuraib district that extends from western Baghdad to the outskirts of Fallujah (not including the prison), but it certainly wasn't as bad as Fallujah in November and there were reporters in there.

Lee
01-18-2005, 03:01 PM
Those damn Liberaces ;)

Nickatilynx
01-18-2005, 03:05 PM
So in otherwords the fighting continues but the US is not doing as bad as is portayed?

The problem is:

The war was unjustified

These Fucking Iraqis better become a democracy whether they want to or not.

Oh and meanwhile postering back and forth between the US and Iran has sparked up.

Bush has made the world an unsafer place.

Mike AI
01-18-2005, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jan 18 2005, 03:06 PM
So in otherwords the fighting continues but the US is not doing as bad as is portayed?

The problem is:

The war was unjustified

These Fucking Iraqis better become a democracy whether they want to or not.

Oh and meanwhile postering back and forth between the US and Iran has sparked up.

Bush has made the world an unsafer place.


Nick, who decides if war is justified? You? Bush? Koffi? Mitirand?

The world is an unsafe place. Deep thought you have there. The world has ALWAYS been unsafe, and will continue to be that way. It is the nature of man. With modern technology it will probably become MORE unsafe.

Of course we can just stick our heads in the sand and hope our warm fuzzy liberal feelings make our enemies want to put down their weapons so we can all sing kumbaya!

Nickatilynx
01-18-2005, 03:21 PM
Mike.

Bush fucked up.

He continues to fuck up.

Nearly half the United States believe this.

And virtually all the rest of the world.

As for

""Nick, who decides if war is justified? You? Bush? Koffi? Mitirand?""

A clear and present danger exists to The US because of WMD held in Iraq let go to war on Iraq.
There wasn't any.
The actions were unjustified.

NickPapageorgio
01-18-2005, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI+Jan 18 2005, 12:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Jan 18 2005, 12:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Jan 18 2005, 03:06 PM
So in otherwords the fighting continues but the US is not doing as bad as is portayed?

The problem is:

The war was unjustified

These Fucking Iraqis better become a democracy whether they want to or not.

Oh and meanwhile postering back and forth between the US and Iran has sparked up.

Bush has made the world an unsafer place.


Nick, who decides if war is justified? You? Bush? Koffi? Mitirand?

The world is an unsafe place. Deep thought you have there. The world has ALWAYS been unsafe, and will continue to be that way. It is the nature of man. With modern technology it will probably become MORE unsafe.

Of course we can just stick our heads in the sand and hope our warm fuzzy liberal feelings make our enemies want to put down their weapons so we can all sing kumbaya! [/b][/quote]
Or we can attack everyone on the face of the earth who doesn't agree with our checks and balances and GUARANTEE that progress is never achieved. We can have nukes and have already shown that we will use them if we have to. Japan knows this. Why are we in charge of policing WMD at ALL? Because we say so? Seems to me, we are a little to "trigger" happy with them already... :rolleyes:

It's like me telling you over and over that you are not allowed to own a gun. You didn't listen so now I bomb your home and occupy it and kill anyone and everything that doesn't agree with my stance or tries to take back YOUR property. What would you do? Would you roll over and accept my new policy in YOUR home and live by my rules? Or would you pick up the biggest stick you could get your hands on and try to hit me in the back of the head?

This isn't some liberal talking. Hell, post 9-11 I was pro Bush 100%. I can just see the bigger picture I think. Who knows, I could be wrong. Have been before. I just know how I would feel if I owned a Ferrari and you told me I wasn't allowed to drive it cause I might hit someone.

Mike AI
01-18-2005, 03:50 PM
Nick you are a liberal - you just came out of the closet.

You bring up some great questions in dealing with foreign policy and international affairs. I have the answers, but you will not like them. If you are interested in learning more about these issues, I recomend going back to the start.

Thucydides, History of the Peloponesian War

Then read some texts on the theory of real politik.

Nickatilynx
01-18-2005, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 18 2005, 12:51 PM
Nick you are a liberal - you just came out of the closet.


ahahahahahaha

I believe someone threatened to sur for libel for being referred to as a "liberal" in the US.

Typical.

Because , like 80% of the world , I think Bush is a total moron and this war was a mistake.

I'm a liberal?


I suggest , Mike , you travel more. Get a feel for things globally rather than being an insular redneck. ;-)))

Try France , excellent wines :)

(I'm stoppibng now before I sound like rhymer)


;-)))

Mike AI
01-18-2005, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx+Jan 18 2005, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nickatilynx @ Jan 18 2005, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mike AI@Jan 18 2005, 12:51 PM
Nick you are a liberal - you just came out of the closet.


ahahahahahaha

I believe someone threatened to sur for libel for being referred to as a "liberal" in the US.

Typical.

Because , like 80% of the world , I think Bush is a total moron and this war was a mistake.

I'm a liberal?


I suggest , Mike , you travel more. Get a feel for things globally rather than being an insular redneck. ;-)))

Try France , excellent wines :)

(I'm stoppibng now before I sound like rhymer)


;-))) [/b][/quote]


Wrong Nick. I was refering to Papagorgio.

I made a post dealing with you before.

I do not think you are a liberal Nick. You should also know I could care less when 80% of the world thinks.

Bush is addressing an issue that has been creeping up for decades. Past President's including my beloved Reagan failed to address it. The rest of the world does nothing, sticking their heads in the sand - OR WORSE - actually arming and providing technical help for terrorist regimes.

This is something that should have been handled in the 80s...

Better late then never. My only problem wth Bush is he is trying to peicemeal this. The whole region is the problem. One cannot whip Iraq, without including Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia.

NickPapageorgio
01-18-2005, 04:12 PM
Yikes...out of the closet?

Does that ensure me free passes to any future Gay Webmaster Bashes? :P

I go with what my head says makes sense. I don't go along party lines. What I see going on is America playing police to the rest of the world and offering up nothing but double standards. If that makes me liberal so be it. :)

I will check out that reading though Mike. I am always open for a good read.

Mike AI
01-18-2005, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by NickPapageorgio@Jan 18 2005, 04:13 PM
Yikes...out of the closet?

Does that ensure me free passes to any future Gay Webmaster Bashes? :P

I go with what my head says makes sense. I don't go along party lines. What I see going on is America playing police to the rest of the world and offering up nothing but double standards. If that makes me liberal so be it. :)

I will check out that reading though Mike. I am always open for a good read.


Nick I do not go along part lines either. I think all professional politicians suck ass. If you enjoy the books, let me know. I have been spending a lot of time reading lately.

grimm
01-18-2005, 04:43 PM
blatant troll, mike:)

I don't disagree with that article at all. I have stopped watching news coverage because it is so blatantly tunnel visioned. the media, especially tv media, is able to pick and choose what it puts on the air. There is no true media coverage either way. and yet, why does that article carry more substance than your average AP wire stuff?

The answer is, it doesnt. That is not an exclusive, i got in in an email off the AP wire service. So that soldier is right, you cannot trust the news.

When the US announced there were no weapons of mass distruction in IRaq, its stated objective wasnt met. so our stated objective was a failure.

I am not against the war at all. I just hate the fact that we made it about "Iraqi freedom" when our stated objective was looking like it would not be met. Now it looks like a drawn our nation building effort, and bush still sits on the fence. More men on the ground is obviously the way to go now that we are firm,ly entrenched, but Bush's reluctance to commit reminds me of LBJ. Half Measures just get more people killed. for having the best trained military in the world, we are short sheeting them on supplies, and not backing them up the way a government should. They are sort of out there on an island right now. And after being elected for the second time, i am not seeing glimmers of hope that our Administration will do what it takes to finish this part.

grimm
01-18-2005, 04:45 PM
mike thinks liberal is like calling someone a "pussy" so over half of our nation, and billions worldwide are pussies. In fact, the only non pussies are the red states, our troops in iraq, and i guess the people they are fighting, because they are definitely not liberal.

also the 9/11 terrorists demonstrated they were not liberal as well:)

Mike AI
01-18-2005, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by grimm@Jan 18 2005, 04:46 PM
mike thinks liberal is like calling someone a "pussy" so over half of our nation, and billions worldwide are pussies. In fact, the only non pussies are the red states, our troops in iraq, and i guess the people they are fighting, because they are definitely not liberal.

also the 9/11 terrorists demonstrated they were not liberal as well:)


Nah less then 30% of us population is liberal. Liberal's know they cannot refer to themselves or their policies as liberal because they have been discredited continually. ( Remember these guys thouht the USSR and Stalin were doing a good job)

Thus liberals have gone underground, and try to avoid the L word and refer to themselves as Progressives or other silly idealistic names.

One problem with liberalism is they are ruining language with their political correctness.

Grimm - when I met you, you were liberal.... then you have a period where you were out of it, but I fear you have slipped back.

I do give you respect because at least do you hide from the L word.

:yowsa:

Nickatilynx
01-18-2005, 05:06 PM
ahahahahaha Mike , you are a card!!

Whats the difference between a democrat ,a liberal , a socialist , and a communist?

According to MikeAI...nothing.



What about Republicans that disagree with the war?
See "communist"

;-)))

grimm
01-18-2005, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI+Jan 18 2005, 02:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Jan 18 2005, 02:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-grimm@Jan 18 2005, 04:46 PM
mike thinks liberal is like calling someone a "pussy" so over half of our nation, and billions worldwide are pussies. In fact, the only non pussies are the red states, our troops in iraq, and i guess the people they are fighting, because they are definitely not liberal.

also the 9/11 terrorists demonstrated they were not liberal as well:)


Nah less then 30% of us population is liberal. Liberal's know they cannot refer to themselves or their policies as liberal because they have been discredited continually. ( Remember these guys thouht the USSR and Stalin were doing a good job)

Thus liberals have gone underground, and try to avoid the L word and refer to themselves as Progressives or other silly idealistic names.

One problem with liberalism is they are ruining language with their political correctness.

Grimm - when I met you, you were liberal.... then you have a period where you were out of it, but I fear you have slipped back.

I do give you respect because at least do you hide from the L word.

:yowsa: [/b][/quote]
I have liberal vies and conservative views. The only change in me came with being more economically conservative. my liberal views on comestic policy haqve been mitigated by the idiotic ideas of economics that come from that side. But now i am seeing those same idiotic views on spending coming from our republican administration. I've quit caring, to tell you the truth, now i just like to stir up shit, because no matter whos in power, nothing ever gets done right. This war included, we half an unwinnable uphill battle to build and instill a stable democracy in an unstable, uinwilling nation.. and a soaring debt back home. Its a money pit. WE are both going to be screaming and hollering when we pay 50+ % in taxes to offset.

grimm
01-18-2005, 05:11 PM
i also dont belive in labels, i walk how i talk;)

You honestly think that you wouldn;t make the liswt of people the Bush administration would want to squash, you think he would shake your hand knowing you were a pornographer (freedom of speech, free enterprise). This administration, dare i say it is against the bill of rights (except #2 that is). I get the feeling when watching the aqctions and talking points of our leaders, that they see the BOR as a hinderence to their objective, and that scares me. Now these are both democrats and republicans, libertarians and conservatives.. lambs to the slaughter, driven by fear.

Mike AI
01-18-2005, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jan 18 2005, 05:07 PM
ahahahahaha Mike , you are a card!!

Whats the difference between a democrat ,a liberal , a socialist , and a communist?

According to MikeAI...nothing.



What about Republicans that disagree with the war?
See "communist"

;-)))
Shouldn't it read

"Whats the difference between a democrat ,a liberal , a socialist , a CANADIAN,and a communist?"


:lol: :lol: :lol:



Onward to Iran and Syria!!

:matey:

Almighty Colin
01-18-2005, 08:35 PM
I read the thread title. I recognized the lion by his paw.

grimm
01-18-2005, 08:42 PM
yep, blatant troll, but the horse is already dead, so what are a few more licks;)

Rolo
01-18-2005, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by grimm@Jan 18 2005, 01:44 PM
When the US announced there were no weapons of mass distruction in IRaq, its stated objective wasnt met. so our stated objective was a failure.
Well, to be technical, then it was the combined effect of UN resolutions 678, 687 and 1441, which was the reasons for war against Iraq. All of these resolutions were made under chapter VII of the UN charter which allows the use of force for "express purpose of restoring international peace and security."

So it didn´t really matter, if there was WMD in Iraq or not - reason was that Saddam was not living up to the UN resolutions.

Now, ofcourse if WMD had been found Bush & Co. would have used that to justify the war, but like all politicians they always have a backdoor open, which they will use.

But at the end of the day, it doesn´t matter if the war in Iraq was legal, but what "the people" think of the war... I guess donkey riding terrorists really scare people - who would have thought that "enlightened" people anno 2005 would forget about the proportions, when some towelhead screams "allah akbar". :ph34r:

NickPapageorgio
01-18-2005, 09:25 PM
30% of the population is liberal? Cool...by the last election numbers looks like liberals are picking up steam. We need some good change. :)

JR
01-18-2005, 09:45 PM
"the first version of history is always written by the media"
Anne Coulter

Nickatilynx
01-18-2005, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Rolo+Jan 18 2005, 06:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rolo @ Jan 18 2005, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-grimm@Jan 18 2005, 01:44 PM
When the US announced there were no weapons of mass distruction in IRaq, its stated objective wasnt met. so our stated objective was a failure.
Well, to be technical, then it was the combined effect of UN resolutions 678, 687 and 1441, which was the reasons for war against Iraq. All of these resolutions were made under chapter VII of the UN charter which allows the use of force for "express purpose of restoring international peace and security."

So it didn´t really matter, if there was WMD in Iraq or not - reason was that Saddam was not living up to the UN resolutions.

Now, ofcourse if WMD had been found Bush & Co. would have used that to justify the war, but like all politicians they always have a backdoor open, which they will use.

But at the end of the day, it doesn´t matter if the war in Iraq was legal, but what "the people" think of the war... I guess donkey riding terrorists really scare people - who would have thought that "enlightened" people anno 2005 would forget about the proportions, when some towelhead screams "allah akbar". :ph34r: [/b][/quote]
The UN did not authorise the use of force.

Similar resolutions exist respect to Israel's for years I believe.

Rolo
01-18-2005, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jan 18 2005, 06:59 PM
The UN did not authorise the use of force.
The U.N. Resolutions 678 and 687 were passed in 1990 and 1991. Resolution 1441 was unanimously voted through by the Security Council in 2002, and it demanded that Saddam disarm or face "serious consequences".

Bush & Co. took the position that no further Security Council was required.

grimm
01-18-2005, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Rolo+Jan 18 2005, 06:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rolo @ Jan 18 2005, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-grimm@Jan 18 2005, 01:44 PM
When the US announced there were no weapons of mass distruction in IRaq, its stated objective wasnt met. so our stated objective was a failure.
Well, to be technical, then it was the combined effect of UN resolutions 678, 687 and 1441, which was the reasons for war against Iraq. All of these resolutions were made under chapter VII of the UN charter which allows the use of force for "express purpose of restoring international peace and security."

So it didn´t really matter, if there was WMD in Iraq or not - reason was that Saddam was not living up to the UN resolutions.

Now, ofcourse if WMD had been found Bush & Co. would have used that to justify the war, but like all politicians they always have a backdoor open, which they will use.

But at the end of the day, it doesn´t matter if the war in Iraq was legal, but what "the people" think of the war... I guess donkey riding terrorists really scare people - who would have thought that "enlightened" people anno 2005 would forget about the proportions, when some towelhead screams "allah akbar". :ph34r: [/b][/quote]
Heh, ok, if that was the stated objective... then why didn't our leader say so. Support for the war was garnered by fear of WEapons of Mass Destruction that our Administgration had "concrete" evidence of. Not to be nitpicky, I understand why we went to war, I know of the sanctions violations, i know the UN speaks out of both sides of its mouth.. sanctioning Iraq but still buying its oil. I also know the cry for more sanctions was a dcesperate attempt for other UN nations to keep buying future barrels of oil from saddam hussein. that hussein used his oil as tender to get around sanctions. All that was never in doubt. But, technically, those were the UN's sanctions, and we went in without their support to uphoild laws that we did not set, under the guise of something else that wasn't even clear or present.

Im not angry, or upset about the war, im just tired of the government blowing smoke up our asses.

All in all it turned out to be STUPID of all things. Bush REALLY thought this would be an in and out sort of thing, and if it was, with noone the wiser, the cloak and dagger shit would have been a success. But by being swayexd in an election year, and not doing the unpopular thing (putting troops on the ground), he set us in for the long haul. This did not go over with the American People.

This administration has fumbled its way through this like a teenager in the dark on prom night. Half measures and promises won't complete the secondary, third or fourth objectives either. now that we are in there. get 'er done. If i stopped watching the news because i didnt want the constant barrage of negative press..what does middle america think, the ones who do watch the news, the ones whos sons and daughters are over there in very real danger, while the three stooges sit around the pentagon scratching their heads. Get Stormin Norman back in there. Tommy Franks was a pussy.

grimm
01-18-2005, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Rolo+Jan 18 2005, 06:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rolo @ Jan 18 2005, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-grimm@Jan 18 2005, 01:44 PM
When the US announced there were no weapons of mass distruction in IRaq, its stated objective wasnt met. so our stated objective was a failure.
Well, to be technical, then it was the combined effect of UN resolutions 678, 687 and 1441, which was the reasons for war against Iraq. All of these resolutions were made under chapter VII of the UN charter which allows the use of force for "express purpose of restoring international peace and security."

So it didn´t really matter, if there was WMD in Iraq or not - reason was that Saddam was not living up to the UN resolutions.

Now, ofcourse if WMD had been found Bush & Co. would have used that to justify the war, but like all politicians they always have a backdoor open, which they will use.

But at the end of the day, it doesn´t matter if the war in Iraq was legal, but what "the people" think of the war... I guess donkey riding terrorists really scare people - who would have thought that "enlightened" people anno 2005 would forget about the proportions, when some towelhead screams "allah akbar". :ph34r: [/b][/quote]
Heh, ok, if that was the stated objective... then why didn't our leader say so. Support for the war was garnered by fear of WEapons of Mass Destruction that our Administgration had "concrete" evidence of. Not to be nitpicky, I understand why we went to war, I know of the sanctions violations, i know the UN speaks out of both sides of its mouth.. sanctioning Iraq but still buying its oil. I also know the cry for more sanctions was a dcesperate attempt for other UN nations to keep buying future barrels of oil from saddam hussein. that hussein used his oil as tender to get around sanctions. All that was never in doubt. But, technically, those were the UN's sanctions, and we went in without their support to uphoild laws that we did not set, under the guise of something else that wasn't even clear or present.

Im not angry, or upset about the war, im just tired of the government blowing smoke up our asses.

All in all it turned out to be STUPID of all things. Bush REALLY thought this would be an in and out sort of thing, and if it was, with noone the wiser, the cloak and dagger shit would have been a success. But by being swayexd in an election year, and not doing the unpopular thing (putting troops on the ground), he set us in for the long haul. This did not go over with the American People.

This administration has fumbled its way through this like a teenager in the dark on prom night. Half measures and promises won't complete the secondary, third or fourth objectives either. now that we are in there. get 'er done. If i stopped watching the news because i didnt want the constant barrage of negative press..what does middle america think, the ones who do watch the news, the ones whos sons and daughters are over there in very real danger, while the three stooges sit around the pentagon scratching their heads. Get Stormin Norman back in there. Tommy Franks was a pussy.

grimm
01-18-2005, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Rolo+Jan 18 2005, 07:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rolo @ Jan 18 2005, 07:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Jan 18 2005, 06:59 PM
The UN did not authorise the use of force.
The U.N. Resolutions 678 and 687 were passed in 1990 and 1991. Resolution 1441 was unanimously voted through by the Security Council in 2002, and it demanded that Saddam disarm or face "serious consequences".

Bush & Co. took the position that no further Security Council was required. [/b][/quote]
you forgot to put U.N. before those resolutions, must have been a typo;)

dantheman
01-18-2005, 10:35 PM
get used to it, there'll be a lot more of this "war" thing. There's no way around it I'm affraid :/

JR
01-18-2005, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by dantheman@Jan 18 2005, 07:36 PM
get used to it, there'll be a lot more of this "war" thing. There's no way around it I'm affraid :/
thats the funny part about all these discussions. the "why's" and "who's" are irrelevent. "war is the natural state of man"

NickPapageorgio
01-18-2005, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by JR+Jan 18 2005, 07:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JR @ Jan 18 2005, 07:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-dantheman@Jan 18 2005, 07:36 PM
get used to it, there'll be a lot more of this "war" thing. There's no way around it I'm affraid :/
thats the funny part about all these discussions. the "why's" and "who's" are irrelevent. "war is the natural state of man" [/b][/quote]
Indeed. Read "Global Brain" by Howard Bloom for a little more insight into this. It's been programmed since the beginning of life. It's a natural survival mechanism programmed into us and everything around us at the molecular level. Pretty cool read.

Nickatilynx
01-18-2005, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by JR+Jan 18 2005, 07:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JR @ Jan 18 2005, 07:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-dantheman@Jan 18 2005, 07:36 PM
get used to it, there'll be a lot more of this "war" thing. There's no way around it I'm affraid :/
thats the funny part about all these discussions. the "why's" and "who's" are irrelevent. "war is the natural state of man" [/b][/quote]
To ponder the why's and wherefores is the nature of man.

JR
01-19-2005, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx+Jan 18 2005, 08:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nickatilynx @ Jan 18 2005, 08:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by JR@Jan 18 2005, 07:55 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-dantheman@Jan 18 2005, 07:36 PM
get used to it, there'll be a lot more of this "war" thing. There's no way around it I'm affraid :/
thats the funny part about all these discussions. the "why's" and "who's" are irrelevent. "war is the natural state of man"
To ponder the why's and wherefores is the nature of man. [/b][/quote]
that is the nature of philosophers. as men, we mostly just want to eat, fuck, drink and blow shit up.

JR
01-19-2005, 12:40 AM
all that seperates man from baboons is the ability to convince ourselves that we are better than baboons. :)

Nickatilynx
01-19-2005, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by JR@Jan 18 2005, 09:41 PM
all that seperates man from baboons is the ability to convince ourselves that we are better than baboons. :)
Well that sure made a monkey out of me.

;-)))

XXXPhoto
01-19-2005, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 18 2005, 01:04 PM
This is something that should have been handled in the 80s...

It was Mike... That's when US was giving all the weapons to Iraq... :moon:

Rolo
01-19-2005, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by XXXPhoto+Jan 18 2005, 10:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (XXXPhoto @ Jan 18 2005, 10:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mike AI@Jan 18 2005, 01:04 PM
This is something that should have been handled in the 80s...

It was Mike... That's when US was giving all the weapons to Iraq... :moon: [/b][/quote]
Hmmm.... according to the "Stockholm International Peace Research Institute", the US delivered less than 0.5% of the weapons to Iraq from 1973 to 2003 - and taken the fact that their numbers only cover until the U.N. embargo in 1990-1991, then that number is probably much less.

Arms transfers to Iraq from 1973-1990:

http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/atirq_data.html
http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/Trn..._Imps_73-03.pdf (http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/Trnd_Ind_IRQ_Imps_73-03.pdf) (download PDF*)

(* the 5 biggest weapons exporters to Iraq : USSR 56.3%, France 12.0%, China 11.8%, Czechoslovakia 6.6%, Poland 3.7%)

Amnesty article on arms transfers to Iraq before and during the U.N. embago:


...
Before the 1991 Gulf War, at least 20 countries were accused of involvement in building up the technological basis for different Iraqi weapons programs, in particular the chemical weapons program. In December 2002, the Iraqi government submitted a 12,000-page dossier to the UN naming companies from the UK, France, Russia, the USA and China as suppliers of weapons technology to Iraq.

Seventeen UK companies named as having supplied Iraq with nuclear, biological, chemical, rocket and conventional weapons technology are to be investigated and could face prosecution. The dossier claims that 24 US firms sold Iraq weapons including nuclear and rocket technology and that some "50 subsidiaries of foreign enterprises conducted their arms business with Iraq from the US". Germany was shown to be Iraq’s biggest arms-trading partner with 80 companies selling weapons technology.

Although most of the trade ended in 1991 at the outbreak of the Gulf War, Russia, China and reportedly Portugal traded arms with Iraq after 1991 in breach of UN resolutions.
...

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/ttt4-article_7-eng

Ofcourse in the 80s the US supplied Iraq with satellite information on when and where Iranians were going to attack etc. but it was not US weapons who Iraq went to war with.

Almighty Colin
01-19-2005, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by NickPapageorgio+Jan 18 2005, 11:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (NickPapageorgio @ Jan 18 2005, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by JR@Jan 18 2005, 07:55 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-dantheman@Jan 18 2005, 07:36 PM
get used to it, there'll be a lot more of this "war" thing. There's no way around it I'm affraid :/
thats the funny part about all these discussions. the "why's" and "who's" are irrelevent. "war is the natural state of man"
Indeed. Read "Global Brain" by Howard Bloom for a little more insight into this. It's been programmed since the beginning of life. It's a natural survival mechanism programmed into us and everything around us at the molecular level. Pretty cool read. [/b][/quote]
Excellent book. So is "Lucifer Principle", which I know JR has read also.

spazlabz
01-19-2005, 08:49 AM
All this talk about liberals heh heh. I started believing the 'conservative' view of the world when I was in the USMC back in 86, Listened to Rush every day for years. I detested Clinton when he was in office because I thought he brought dishonor to the office.
I was mad as hell after 9/11/01 and thought that going into afghanistan was completely justified and proper. THATS where the people were who attacked us. THATS where they trained and lived........let's blow it up! Hell yeah, I am all about that shit right there.
When the Iraq thing started to come up I admit I had moments of doudt. 'But we aren't finished in Afghanistan', 'Saddam didn't do shit'. these were some of the thoughts I had. But When Powel stood up in front of the general assembly and the world and said words to the effect that Iraq had WMDs, we know where they are, we know what he has, and we know how much of them he has along with a desire to put them in the hands of terrorists, well then......BLOW THE FUCKER UP! & To hell with the pansy assed UN and their whiney little puke BS of sanctions and rhetoric........BLOW THE FUCKER UP............YEAH!
Thats where I was, and i couldnt wait for the proof to come out and justify 100% us going in. But slowly it dawned on me that there were no WMDs. The weapons inspectors that were there days before we bombed reported to the UN that none existed (we forced them to leave if you remember) and that Saddam had no capability of getting WMDs. I started to question things. I also questioned my questioning because I do truly love this country.

Now, in 2005, I can honestly say that Bush and his administration scares the hell out of me. He shows a lack of any understanding on things like 'human rights', he believes IMO, that the world needs to fit nice and neatly into his own views, and I firmly believe that he is attempting to turn our democracy into the worlds most powerful theocracy. i DO believe he is legislating away our rights in this country and calling it security. I think he and his kind are bad for America, his policies are bad for this country and the world and that his supports falls into one or three catagories.
zealot religeous Christians
Right wing power crazed thugs (heh heh, I love that description)
people who think his policies are good for business ( Hey! I make more money with a conservative republican in office......I LOVE BUSH)

Fine Mike, you like him for whatever reason you have. You have stated it over and over and over and over and over and fucking puke me a fucking river already with what is in my opinion an absolutely BLIND EYE to reality. Bottom line, MILLIONS of people disagree with you in this country alone. But hey call it a mandate like Bush did and move on, but just because someone disagrees with you on the topic of GWB and how he runs (LOL runs) the country does not make that person a liberal.
I still can't bring myself to actually say I wish Al Gore had won back in 2000, because i dont, but damn! I sure wish someone other then GWB had gotten it for the repubs.


spaz

grimm
01-20-2005, 03:59 AM
its called "voting with your wallet" its the new black;)