Merchant accounts vs. IPSP billing [Archive] - Oprano Adult Industry Forums

rhymer11

01-08-2005, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by *KK*+Jan 8 2005, 06:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Jan 8 2005, 06:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Jan 8 2005, 11:00 AM
Merchant accounts need managing , and its not for the faint hearted.
No doubt Nick, I've seen way too many people either try to run fast and loose with the rules or simply haven't got the ability to handle their customer service. But after the IBill situation (among others) I'm wondering how many people would rather have control of their own destiny, so to speak, especially if they had the advice and support to learn how to manage their merchant accounts, especially those that should be able to see bottom line results by gaining the ability. [/b][/quote]
KK managing a merchant account is easy. You set your risk tolerance. You arrange your customer service, call centres and 800 numbers and at the end of the day, you make more money. But the real value is, you control your customer list. CC numbers addresses, rebillings, and if your credit is good no rolling reserve. But if there is a rolling reserve, it is held by an insured bank, not an aggragator. It is a win win situation.
BTW, it also seems that Visa has made it much harder to charge back. I haven't had a charge back in 18 months.

01-09-2005, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by rhymer11+Jan 8 2005, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rhymer11 @ Jan 8 2005, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by *KK*@Jan 8 2005, 06:49 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Jan 8 2005, 11:00 AM
Merchant accounts need managing , and its not for the faint hearted.
No doubt Nick, I've seen way too many people either try to run fast and loose with the rules or simply haven't got the ability to handle their customer service. But after the IBill situation (among others) I'm wondering how many people would rather have control of their own destiny, so to speak, especially if they had the advice and support to learn how to manage their merchant accounts, especially those that should be able to see bottom line results by gaining the ability.
KK managing a merchant account is easy. You set your risk tolerance. You arrange your customer service, call centres and 800 numbers and at the end of the day, you make more money. But the real value is, you control your customer list. CC numbers addresses, rebillings, and if your credit is good no rolling reserve. But if there is a rolling reserve, it is held by an insured bank, not an aggragator. It is a win win situation.
BTW, it also seems that Visa has made it much harder to charge back. I haven't had a charge back in 18 months. [/b][/quote]
After moving all my sites from ibill to epoch because everyone said 'yeah epoch rocks, they are the best' I ended up frustrated as hell with how complicated they make the process with their OWN rules - my local bank could do a better job - with LESS headaches.

I'm used to having solid contacts within companies and I guess that's why my experience there was so bad - i wasn't part of the kool kids krowd and am considered to be a processing risk because i'm australian :rolleyes:

I really struggled with billing the first half of last year, just couldn't seem to find the right solution ... after chatting directly with banks in several countries over the years, I realized just how much red tape the IPSP's put you through is MORE than the red tape to get and keep a merchant account.

It isn't *easy* to get a merchant account, especially for adult, but it isn't easy to setup processing with epoch either ...

As Rhymer11 said, with your own merchant account you manage your own risk and therefore can control your own chargebacks. If its traffic that comes from TGP's, warez sites, password sites, spam etc, you would scrub the traffic hard ... if your conversions aren't very good, loosen the scrub a bit.

As for chargebacks, the few transactions i did end up putting through my epoch account runs at around 2 - 5 % on average .......... how on earth are they letting this many chargebacks through and then having the nerve to penalize us because of it?? If we are going to be charged 15% for processing, all chargeback attempts and refund customer support should be handled at an EXCEPTIONALLY HIGH standard and there shouldn't be that many chargebacks if they are doing their job right.

I use 2 solutions - an international merchant account for adult with our own scrub database and a local bank merchant account for mainstream ( http://www.thenatureclinic.com ).

In the last 5 months, so far we have had a total of 30 chargebacks out of about 6000 transactions - these 30 transactions charged back were only 9 individuals. The most commonly charged back billing model is free preview with monthly recurring or we have purve set to $6.95 weekly currently and its a SHIT pricing point for both retention and chargebacks/refunds!

My 2c ... I strongly recommend anyone who is doing more than a few joins a day to look into merchant account options in your local community ... at least arm yourself with the knowledge so you can spot the IPSP bullshit. You always have to find whatever solution works best for you, but don't kid yourself its easier to use an IPSP until you've explored all your options.

Hell Puppy

01-09-2005, 05:56 AM

I haven't done the legwork to setup a merchant account yet, although we're probably the prototypical good candidate for it in adult. Low price points, we dont push the envelope at all with billing tricks, affiliates by invite only and we deliver what we promise. So we have NO chargebacks.

We started down the road with Netbilling a few months back, but waived off for a couple of reasons. First off the lady we were dealing with, although polite, was very obviously a "phone person". Anyone who knows me, knows you need to communicate electronically whenever possible or we're not going to get along. If I ask a simple question in email and you spend all day trying to tag up with me on my phone and never get me my answer, we're not doing business.

That aside, during the same time I learned from GonZo that he needed to make some sort of adjustment to his account with them and couldn't get anything more than a voicemail box to try to get it taken care of.

All these things set off red flags with me. I speculated at the time that they were over loaded from people fleeing iPSPs due to IBill and other issues.

Anyone else using them for a hands on review?

Any other vendors out there helping guide people thru the process of getting their own merchant account? There cant be many banks left in the U.S. who'll touch adult.

*KK*

01-09-2005, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by rhymer11@Jan 8 2005, 06:56 PM
KK managing a merchant account is easy. You set your risk tolerance. You arrange your customer service, call centres and 800 numbers and at the end of the day, you make more money. But the real value is, you control your customer list. CC numbers addresses, rebillings, and if your credit is good no rolling reserve. But if there is a rolling reserve, it is held by an insured bank, not an aggragator. It is a win win situation.
BTW, it also seems that Visa has made it much harder to charge back. I haven't had a charge back in 18 months.
LOL, you do have a tendency to oversimplify things. While that is in some ways how a merchant account works, you've failed to take into account someone with a sizable affiliate program's need to constantly add trans each month and other variables that influence things.

cj hits the nail on the head, and the girls got experience all the way around the block and back with all the potential pitfalls of a merchant account, even if it's not in her name :)

HP, I'm no phone person either.

rhymer11

01-09-2005, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by *KK*+Jan 9 2005, 09:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Jan 9 2005, 09:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-rhymer11@Jan 8 2005, 06:56 PM
KK managing a merchant account is easy. You set your risk tolerance. You arrange your customer service, call centres and 800 numbers and at the end of the day, you make more money. But the real value is, you control your customer list. CC numbers addresses, rebillings, and if your credit is good no rolling reserve. But if there is a rolling reserve, it is held by an insured bank, not an aggragator. It is a win win situation.
BTW, it also seems that Visa has made it much harder to charge back. I haven't had a charge back in 18 months.
LOL, you do have a tendency to oversimplify things. While that is in some ways how a merchant account works, you've failed to take into account someone with a sizable affiliate program's need to constantly add trans each month and other variables that influence things.

cj hits the nail on the head, and the girls got experience all the way around the block and back with all the potential pitfalls of a merchant account, even if it's not in her name :)

HP, I'm no phone person either. [/b][/quote]
You are in someways right about that. I do tend to simplify things, but in my mind most things are simple if you know what you are doing. They are only complex to the uninitiiated. That is what knowledge is all about. I have had a merchant account for years and have been around a whole lot of blocks as you might imagine one does. Now, I do not do affiliates, but that is my personal preference, but when I have considered them in the past, I found manageable solutions to that problem as well. Look at it this way, would any major company ever allow a third party to look after their financial future and billings in the real world? Why would anyone do it here? I have only ever done one aggragator as a secondary and that fucked up big time. The trick to keeping your life simple with a merchant account is customer service. You know 24/7 800 number access so any problems can be short circuited before they happen. You also have the advantage of call centre capabilitiy if you advertise in print publications and all the upselling that that affords you. Paying attention to your transactions with an eye to suspicious looking business is also essential. But, believe me, having your own merchant account is way, way different than using someone elses. I still stand by what I said. It is the prudent, safest, and most profitable course of action.

rhymer11

01-09-2005, 02:00 PM

Actually I have always wondered something about aggragators and I have never seen it addressed anywhere. It seems when they go tits up, all the reserve funds disappear. They claim the banks have siezed them or visa has dumped on them. Whatever!

Would it not seem like good business practice that those funds should be held in escrow to protect all involved in the event of disaster? However, it seems they are used as working capital and when the shit hits the fan, they disappear and the customers are screwed out of their hard earned profits. I may be wrong about this....legal disclaimer...but very few ever see those funds again.

Maybe someone from an aggragator could explain what exactly happens to the rolling reserve that is supposedly to be used as charge back protection. Or anyone else who has any insite into the inner workings of IPSP's.

*KK*

01-09-2005, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by rhymer11@Jan 9 2005, 11:01 AM

Maybe someone from an aggragator could explain what exactly happens to the rolling reserve that is supposedly to be used as charge back protection. Or anyone else who has any insite into the inner workings of IPSP's.
Who do you think holds the aggregators funds? The bank does, just like they do with anyone else's merchant account. An SMID is akin to a TID without a MID, something that is occasionally done for small volume merchants who want an account but don't have the volume to justify a bank assigning them both MIDs and TIDs. If the aggregators account is frozen or terminated, the bank stops sending them funds until their contracted reserve period has ended, and many times they still roll the funds through for months to pay the merchant account holder the balance due after credits and chargebacks are accounted for -- closing an account doesn't mean that those two things stop coming in, quite the opposite in fact.

The fact that you have no affiliate program makes a drastic difference on how your account fares, whether you realize it or not. Even the most well meaning of affiliates has a tendency to "overmarket" the program in order to make sales, and even if those surfers don't turn into chargebacks, they do turn into higher credits. Most every bank I know of has instigated credits as a percentage of sales into allowable ratios as well, since Mastercard reserves the right to fine on credits if they determine they are being issued solely for the sake of avoiding a CDC initiation.

rhymer11

01-09-2005, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by *KK*+Jan 9 2005, 06:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Jan 9 2005, 06:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-rhymer11@Jan 9 2005, 11:01 AM

Maybe someone from an aggragator could explain what exactly happens to the rolling reserve that is supposedly to be used as charge back protection. Or anyone else who has any insite into the inner workings of IPSP's.
Who do you think holds the aggregators funds? The bank does, just like they do with anyone else's merchant account. An SMID is akin to a TID without a MID, something that is occasionally done for small volume merchants who want an account but don't have the volume to justify a bank assigning them both MIDs and TIDs. If the aggregators account is frozen or terminated, the bank stops sending them funds until their contracted reserve period has ended, and many times they still roll the funds through for months to pay the merchant account holder the balance due after credits and chargebacks are accounted for -- closing an account doesn't mean that those two things stop coming in, quite the opposite in fact.

The fact that you have no affiliate program makes a drastic difference on how your account fares, whether you realize it or not. Even the most well meaning of affiliates has a tendency to "overmarket" the program in order to make sales, and even if those surfers don't turn into chargebacks, they do turn into higher credits. Most every bank I know of has instigated credits as a percentage of sales into allowable ratios as well, since Mastercard reserves the right to fine on credits if they determine they are being issued solely for the sake of avoiding a CDC initiation. [/b][/quote]
This is an interesting explanation, but the acronyms escape me...
"An SMID is akin to a TID without a MID"
Please explain.

edit:
"Most every bank I know of has instigated credits as a percentage of sales into allowable ratios as well, since Mastercard reserves the right to fine on credits if they determine they are being issued solely for the sake of avoiding a CDC initiation."

This particular situation is becoming a very rare occurence.

01-09-2005, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Jan 9 2005, 05:57 AM
I haven't done the legwork to setup a merchant account yet, although we're probably the prototypical good candidate for it in adult. Low price points, we dont push the envelope at all with billing tricks, affiliates by invite only and we deliver what we promise. So we have NO chargebacks.
This is a very common mistake made by people going for their own merchant account .... 'we provide good service therefore we will have no chargebacks'

People who chargeback are rarely doing so because they are pissed off with the service - a pissed off customer will try to contact the place they are pissed off at to abuse them, therefore you can step in and turn a potential chargeback into the lesser evil of a refund.

Anyone who immediately contacts the bank to chargeback obviously has some experience with the process - and nothing you could do with support, providing what you advertise etc has anything to do with it.

There's 2 types of people who chargeback ....

1) really really pissed off people who have tried all avenue's and chargeback is final straw

2) people who don't want to pay for the item

We initiated some steps to be proactive with chargebacks going back about a year. When someone tries to chargeback, they are phoned up by one of our service reps ...

'hi, just wondering why you are trying to chargeback this service?'

'errr .... umm ..... aaah ..... errr .... i ... i um .....'

'we just wanted to let you know that charging back this service is actually accusing us of fraud - so we were just wondering who owns this ip so we can sort it out'

'errr .... umm ...'

a phonecall will almost always prevent the chargeback from occuring ...

Assuming that all the processing problems belong to only those with deceptive billing practices is why so many small companies went out of business in '04 ... Visa taught customers to chargeback so they could protect and keep their clients, but its our responsibility to protect our business by not letting Visa's rules negatively effect us ...

rhymer11

01-09-2005, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by cj+Jan 9 2005, 07:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cj @ Jan 9 2005, 07:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Hell Puppy@Jan 9 2005, 05:57 AM
I haven't done the legwork to setup a merchant account yet, although we're probably the prototypical good candidate for it in adult. Low price points, we dont push the envelope at all with billing tricks, affiliates by invite only and we deliver what we promise. So we have NO chargebacks.
This is a very common mistake made by people going for their own merchant account .... 'we provide good service therefore we will have no chargebacks'

People who chargeback are rarely doing so because they are pissed off with the service - a pissed off customer will try to contact the place they are pissed off at to abuse them, therefore you can step in and turn a potential chargeback into the lesser evil of a refund.

Anyone who immediately contacts the bank to chargeback obviously has some experience with the process - and nothing you could do with support, providing what you advertise etc has anything to do with it.

There's 2 types of people who chargeback ....

1) really really pissed off people who have tried all avenue's and chargeback is final straw

2) people who don't want to pay for the item

We initiated some steps to be proactive with chargebacks going back about a year. When someone tries to chargeback, they are phoned up by one of our service reps ...

'hi, just wondering why you are trying to chargeback this service?'

'errr .... umm ..... aaah ..... errr .... i ... i um .....'

'we just wanted to let you know that charging back this service is actually accusing us of fraud - so we were just wondering who owns this ip so we can sort it out'

'errr .... umm ...'

a phonecall will almost always prevent the chargeback from occuring ...

Assuming that all the processing problems belong to only those with deceptive billing practices is why so many small companies went out of business in '04 ... Visa taught customers to chargeback so they could protect and keep their clients, but its our responsibility to protect our business by not letting Visa's rules negatively effect us ... [/b][/quote]
Have you noticed that it is getting much harder to chargeback? I think the CC companies are making it much more difficutl. I tried to charge back a transacation recently bya "nutracutical" company on an unwanted rebilling. I had to go through hell. It was a card not present transaction as well. It took three months and they got one extra payment out of me. Also, I think as NDB's grow....Netbilling's for instance is fab, the scumbags are learning if they do charge back, they can only do it a couple of times before their details are captured. I even have people begging me to let them join but their history sucks. so its cash up front....mail order only. Funnily enough, the cash arrives. Its much less risky than in the past.

"This is a very common mistake made by people going for their own merchant account .... 'we provide good service therefore we will have no chargebacks' That is only partly true. You have to also let the surfer on the outside no exactly what is on the inside....exactly. Then provide a support email and a 24/7/365 phone connection with a non toll free number for overseas callers. Once you have scrubbed to your comfort level, then enjoy the benefits. It is well worth the aggro to get it done. The alternatives are not always as easily to take.

01-10-2005, 12:21 AM

rhymer, I've definately noticed its getting harder to chargeback ... and banks are also becoming aware of 'serial chargebackers' and looking at how trustworthy the customer is not just the site they joined.

and as you said, the scrubs are becoming better too - so the evil transactions don't even get through in the beginning. Its also helped by how many companies are now sharing their scrub list ... a scrub list has become the remove list of the processing world LOL

a good remove list can save your spam business (so nick tells me!!) and a good scrub can save your processing business ... companies share these assets in the same way we'd do traffic swaps

we've all learnt a lot about balance after riding this roller coaster for so long!! back in the day we just wanted every transaction we could get because it was a volume numbers game ... but in those days, there were SEVERAL companies who were doing 2k plus joins a day so we didn't care about 10 chargebacks ... there was always 10 new customers to replace them.

And in those days, 20 companies controlled 80% of the entire traffic in the biz ... while the 80/20 % rule still applies, but 20 companies used to be 80% of the industry - now it would probably be 2000 companies that make up the top 20% (purely a guess, i have no idea how many companies or people are in this biz - i just know there are too fucking many!!)

at least we were all a lot more 'calm' about processing in the second half of '04 than the first LOL

Opti

01-10-2005, 09:06 AM

My Dad tried to chargeback his ISP bill from Telstra (Like BELL company in Aus) and his bank would not do it... told him to file a complaint with the Police if he thought they had frauded him!!

:okthumb:

rhymer11

01-10-2005, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by Opti@Jan 10 2005, 06:07 AM
My Dad tried to chargeback his ISP bill from Telstra (Like BELL company in Aus) and his bank would not do it... told him to file a complaint with the Police if he thought they had frauded him!!

:okthumb:
I love it.

rhymer11

01-10-2005, 09:43 AM

"and in those days, 20 companies controlled 80% of the entire traffic in the biz ... while the 80/20 % rule still applies, but 20 companies used to be 80% of the industry - now it would probably be 2000 companies that make up the top 20% (purely a guess, i have no idea how many companies or people are in this biz - i just know there are too fucking many!!)"

Its getting crowded at the top, I guess. There seems to be an inkling of panic on the boards of late. I was at a GFY party recently and it was full of traffic monkeys getting hammered on Grey Goose and bitiching that content providers were taking half of "their" profits. But their biggest question was how to get into content creation. I just laughed and laughed. And then I laughed some more.
The amateur market is turning into girl farms. It is getting way too hard to make it as a single website anymore. But to a great extent, those small websites were providing a lot of traffic to the larger businesses through affiliate programmes and exit traffic. Now they can barely afford to attend internext. There is certainly a big correction happening in the market at the moment. Everyone is manic about finding the next new thing. Or return to Old School, or get into mainstream, or whatever. But as far as I can see, the business is just settling into what the future has in store. If you are good at it, you will do well. Its just not as profitable as in the beginning. Nothing much has changed in my world except the obvious increase in competition, which just leads me to more creative marketing strategies and my business grows slowly. It plods along like a tortoise but I have seen a lot of hares come and go.

*KK*

01-10-2005, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by rhymer11@Jan 9 2005, 07:16 PM
This is an interesting explanation, but the acronyms escape me...
"An SMID is akin to a TID without a MID"
Please explain.

edit:
"Most every bank I know of has instigated credits as a percentage of sales into allowable ratios as well, since Mastercard reserves the right to fine on credits if they determine they are being issued solely for the sake of avoiding a CDC initiation."

This particular situation is becoming a very rare occurence.
SMID =sponsored merchant id
MID =merchant id
TID = terminal id

Interesting that you are unfamiliar with those terms since they have been the standard for so long that there really arent any others to use.

I'm also not sure what you mean by your comment about something becoming a very rare occurence? If you mean credits issued in lieu of chargebacks, you're incorrect. If you mean banks penalizing accounts they find doing so, you're also incorrect.

So please clarify what you are referring to if you can.

:)

rhymer11

01-10-2005, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by *KK*+Jan 10 2005, 09:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Jan 10 2005, 09:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-rhymer11@Jan 9 2005, 07:16 PM
This is an interesting explanation, but the acronyms escape me...
"An SMID is akin to a TID without a MID"
Please explain.

edit:
"Most every bank I know of has instigated credits as a percentage of sales into allowable ratios as well, since Mastercard reserves the right to fine on credits if they determine they are being issued solely for the sake of avoiding a CDC initiation."

This particular situation is becoming a very rare occurence.
SMID =sponsored merchant id
MID =merchant id
TID = terminal id

Interesting that you are unfamiliar with those terms since they have been the standard for so long that there really arent any others to use.

I'm also not sure what you mean by your comment about something becoming a very rare occurence? If you mean credits issued in lieu of chargebacks, you're incorrect. If you mean banks penalizing accounts they find doing so, you're also incorrect.

So please clarify what you are referring to if you can.

:) [/b][/quote]
Its not so strange, really. I spend most of my time photographing, writing, and spinning. I make about five calls a year to my merchant bank and we go over our various sites and make sure everyone is happy. I guess my account runs so smoothly that those terms are never needed in my world. Note: I just did check my stats and found those numbers and realized what they were. Hell I needed them to log in. Just didn't recognise the terms. I began by using another companies merchant account in 98 then switched to my own account when it became obvious it was the answer. Business itself I find boring. Making it happen is like a symphony that is fun to conduct, but I surely can't play all the intstruments, nor do aspire to. I am sure that knowing all of that stuff is useful, but I have other interests that need my attention. I guess a good producer learns to delegate and turn his attention to that which generates creativity, ultimately, income.
Now as to the latter.....
credits in lieu of chargebacks are becoming a non issue because they are so very rare. I am sure the cc companies policy is still the same as it was when it was a very, very serious issue. I have been through all the CSI bullshit and I never, ever want to go through that shit again.
Billing is becoming less of a headache than in the "good old days". But just in case, I am working my way through the set up of an offshore account at the moment. Ya never know, do you?

*KK*

01-10-2005, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by rhymer11@Jan 10 2005, 09:37 AM
Now as to the latter.....
credits in lieu of chargebacks are becoming a non issue because they are so very rare. I am sure the cc companies policy is still the same as it was when it was a very, very serious issue. I have been through all the CSI bullshit and I never, ever want to go through that shit again.
Billing is becoming less of a headache than in the "good old days". But just in case, I am working my way through the set up of an offshore account at the moment. Ya never know, do you?
I can assure you that while you personally may not have any problems with credits or chargebacks, this has not become any less of an issue today than it was a year ago today, two years ago today, or will be a year from today.

There's a very nasty, and as of yet, unconfirmed rumor, regarding Visa EU's allowable chargeback limits becoming even more restrictive in the next few months, and if so, that will once again create issues if it's true.

Nickatilynx

01-10-2005, 01:06 PM

My experience lately of getting direct merchant accounts...

"Fuck off"

"Love to take your business but we can't"

"Sure ..yeah...we can help....reserve of FUCK% and also we will only pay you every third thursaday after lent"

"I may be able to arrange a string of accounts that could handle that"

"Let me put you intouch with this guy he does a lot of the offshore ones" {{then you get ""ya mate , watch yourself"" from friends}}

""There is this guy in Isreal.."

**************************************

Rhymer,

It depends , a lot , I found , on your answer to this question.

"How much do you want to process?"

rhymer11

01-10-2005, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by *KK*+Jan 10 2005, 10:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Jan 10 2005, 10:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-rhymer11@Jan 10 2005, 09:37 AM
Now as to the latter.....
credits in lieu of chargebacks are becoming a non issue because they are so very rare. I am sure the cc companies policy is still the same as it was when it was a very, very serious issue. I have been through all the CSI bullshit and I never, ever want to go through that shit again.
Billing is becoming less of a headache than in the "good old days". But just in case, I am working my way through the set up of an offshore account at the moment. Ya never know, do you?
I can assure you that while you personally may not have any problems with credits or chargebacks, this has not become any less of an issue today than it was a year ago today, two years ago today, or will be a year from today.

There's a very nasty, and as of yet, unconfirmed rumor, regarding Visa EU's allowable chargeback limits becoming even more restrictive in the next few months, and if so, that will once again create issues if it's true. [/b][/quote]
The chargeback issue was probably a good thing for the online business as a whole. If forced a lot of scam artists either out of the business or made them re think their business models.
That kind of high risk cowboy shit did nothing good for the business as a whole. It made a few people a bunch of money at the expense of many.
Don't get me wrong, I never begrudge anyone making a fair profit, but when it makes my life a problem, then I gotta say something.
Since individuals and corporate entities have been held responsible personally for their cb ratios, I think a lot of the rip offs have disappeared. But we are all still suffering from the scams and out and out theft of the "good old days".
You see, I am old school. I believe in giving fair value for hard earned money. I don't care if its porn or hamburgers. It works. Sam Walton thought so and he almost made as much as some of the pornographers on these boards. Well almost.

TheEnforcer

01-10-2005, 01:41 PM

Some damn good discussion in this thread. Given situations like IBill, which really put the clamps on a great deal many people, it certainly is an issue worthy of great debate. Having your own merchant account is certainly better for your bottom line AS LONG AS you are able to manage it properly. Some people just seem to have a 'fuck that hassles' type of attitude and want someone else to deal with it so they can concentrate on other aspects of the biz.

*KK*

01-10-2005, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by TheEnforcer@Jan 10 2005, 10:42 AM
Some damn good discussion in this thread. Given situations like IBill, which really put the clamps on a great deal many people, it certainly is an issue worthy of great debate. Having your own merchant account is certainly better for your bottom line AS LONG AS you are able to manage it properly. Some people just seem to have a 'fuck that hassles' type of attitude and want someone else to deal with it so they can concentrate on other aspects of the biz.
If you've got a bank that won't put up with nonsense, an ISO that's in it for the long term, resources and advice that will help to keep you out of hot water, and you're looking for something that's going to be profitable but not 'turn and burn', then there are merchant accounts out there.

I'm sure there are still some scamming ISOs and banks around, but we all know how long that lasts ;)

TheEnforcer

01-10-2005, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by *KK*+Jan 10 2005, 02:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Jan 10 2005, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TheEnforcer@Jan 10 2005, 10:42 AM
Some damn good discussion in this thread. Given situations like IBill, which really put the clamps on a great deal many people, it certainly is an issue worthy of great debate. Having your own merchant account is certainly better for your bottom line AS LONG AS you are able to manage it properly. Some people just seem to have a 'fuck that hassles' type of attitude and want someone else to deal with it so they can concentrate on other aspects of the biz.
If you've got a bank that won't put up with nonsense, an ISO that's in it for the long term, resources and advice that will help to keep you out of hot water, and you're looking for something that's going to be profitable but not 'turn and burn', then there are merchant accounts out there.

I'm sure there are still some scamming ISOs and banks around, but we all know how long that lasts ;) [/b][/quote]
Very true KK. Excellent post, as always, by you. :rokk:

rhymer11

01-10-2005, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by *KK*+Jan 10 2005, 11:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Jan 10 2005, 11:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TheEnforcer@Jan 10 2005, 10:42 AM
Some damn good discussion in this thread. Given situations like IBill, which really put the clamps on a great deal many people, it certainly is an issue worthy of great debate. Having your own merchant account is certainly better for your bottom line AS LONG AS you are able to manage it properly. Some people just seem to have a 'fuck that hassles' type of attitude and want someone else to deal with it so they can concentrate on other aspects of the biz.
If you've got a bank that won't put up with nonsense, an ISO that's in it for the long term, resources and advice that will help to keep you out of hot water, and you're looking for something that's going to be profitable but not 'turn and burn', then there are merchant accounts out there.

I'm sure there are still some scamming ISOs and banks around, but we all know how long that lasts ;) [/b][/quote]
great post. 'bout says it all.

01-10-2005, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by *KK*+Jan 10 2005, 01:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Jan 10 2005, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-rhymer11@Jan 10 2005, 09:37 AM
Now as to the latter.....
credits in lieu of chargebacks are becoming a non issue because they are so very rare. I am sure the cc companies policy is still the same as it was when it was a very, very serious issue. I have been through all the CSI bullshit and I never, ever want to go through that shit again.
Billing is becoming less of a headache than in the "good old days". But just in case, I am working my way through the set up of an offshore account at the moment. Ya never know, do you?
I can assure you that while you personally may not have any problems with credits or chargebacks, this has not become any less of an issue today than it was a year ago today, two years ago today, or will be a year from today.

There's a very nasty, and as of yet, unconfirmed rumor, regarding Visa EU's allowable chargeback limits becoming even more restrictive in the next few months, and if so, that will once again create issues if it's true. [/b][/quote]
how much lower can it go, and will it really make a difference anymore anyway?

what's the big difference between 2 % ... 1 % or 0% ... you have to implement the same steps to get down to 2% as you do to get to 0% ... how much more impact can visa have than it did in 2004?

maybe on those companies who were scraping in at 2% or who still as yet haven't solved their chargeback problems .. but anyone who has implemented steps to stop chargebacks from being an issue at 2% shouldn't notice many changes at all.

and anyway ... fuck visa. we've let them run our business for too long!

they are only 1 form of processing & if they don't want our business then they don't have to take it. every single project i've talked to people about for 2005 relies on phones and other billing methods more than credit cards ... visa can set all the rules they like, but more people have a cell phone than a visa card.

i'm really of the opinion these days that if you don't want to be involved, don't! there's always 10 companies ready to step in ... why continue to look backwards at problems that have already been overcome?

ONWARD THROUGH THE FOG! :rolleyes:

Nickatilynx

01-10-2005, 07:25 PM

I remember what Sserge said to me back in 97 about opening paysites..

"Nick, you have traffic , someone will always want traffic , let the person that pays you for the traffic have all the headaches."

I'm edging that way again....lol

rhymer11

01-10-2005, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jan 10 2005, 04:26 PM
I remember what Sserge said to me back in 97 about opening paysites..

"Nick, you have traffic , someone will always want traffic , let the person that pays you for the traffic have all the headaches."

I'm edging that way again....lol
I have content. People will always want content. The traffic comes. Manipulating traffic is a headache. Making content is a pleasure.

Hell Puppy

01-11-2005, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jan 10 2005, 07:26 PM
I remember what Sserge said to me back in 97 about opening paysites..

"Nick, you have traffic , someone will always want traffic , let the person that pays you for the traffic have all the headaches."

I'm edging that way again....lol
I always count my money. I know what every click makes.

Call it scrub. Call it oversaturation. Call it a shave. But for the past year I cant come anywhere near making what I make off of my own sites when I send it to someone else.

01-11-2005, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jan 10 2005, 07:26 PM
I remember what Sserge said to me back in 97 about opening paysites..

"Nick, you have traffic , someone will always want traffic , let the person that pays you for the traffic have all the headaches."

I'm edging that way again....lol
yes, that's 1 way to look at it ... but which was the first link in the chain to be made obsolete?

If you are going to put yourself in the middle, make sure either end doesn't ever meet ...

rhymer11

01-11-2005, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Hell Puppy+Jan 10 2005, 10:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hell Puppy @ Jan 10 2005, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Jan 10 2005, 07:26 PM
I remember what Sserge said to me back in 97 about opening paysites..

"Nick, you have traffic , someone will always want traffic , let the person that pays you for the traffic have all the headaches."

I'm edging that way again....lol
I always count my money. I know what every click makes.

Call it scrub. Call it oversaturation. Call it a shave. But for the past year I cant come anywhere near making what I make off of my own sites when I send it to someone else. [/b][/quote]
When you create, control, market and sell your own product, it stands to reason that you will maximize your profit.

Opti

01-11-2005, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jan 11 2005, 10:26 AM
I remember what Sserge said to me back in 97 about opening paysites..

"Nick, you have traffic , someone will always want traffic , let the person that pays you for the traffic have all the headaches."

I'm edging that way again....lol
Traffic is king... fuck content headaches!! :cdance:

rhymer11

01-11-2005, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Opti+Jan 11 2005, 06:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Opti @ Jan 11 2005, 06:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Jan 11 2005, 10:26 AM
I remember what Sserge said to me back in 97 about opening paysites..

"Nick, you have traffic , someone will always want traffic , let the person that pays you for the traffic have all the headaches."

I'm edging that way again....lol
Traffic is king... fuck content headaches!! :cdance: [/b][/quote]
no content. no traffic. No chicken. No egg. :blink:

Nickatilynx

01-11-2005, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by rhymer11+Jan 11 2005, 07:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rhymer11 @ Jan 11 2005, 07:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Opti@Jan 11 2005, 06:21 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Jan 11 2005, 10:26 AM
I remember what Sserge said to me back in 97 about opening paysites..

"Nick, you have traffic , someone will always want traffic , let the person that pays you for the traffic have all the headaches."

I'm edging that way again....lol
Traffic is king... fuck content headaches!! :cdance:
no content. no traffic. No chicken. No egg. :blink: [/b][/quote]
Rhymer,

Sorry but you really don't know what you are talking about.

The Best sources of traffic , bar none are:
1.) Search engines
2.) Mail

Garnering these traffic sources in no way requires content.

When you create, control, market and sell your own product, it stands to reason that you will maximize your profit. - rhymer

In your case "your wife"

Call it scrub. Call it oversaturation. Call it a shave. But for the past year I cant come anywhere near making what I make off of my own sites when I send it to someone else.

I agree 100%.
However its a thing of scale.And trust me I've done it.

You send 200 joins per day to your own sites.

You now need , customer service , a fulltime webmaster to update , a designer , an office etc etc etc ,content , processing that can handle that volume , scrub control.
Now if it is say , pharma, you need to be able to ship , store and process each order.

It becomes a nightmare.

Lets say for argument , becuase of your volume , you can shop around and minimise "scrub" etc etc.

The 200 joins a day from the same traffic to your own sites become say 120 a day to others. They pay you $45 for these joins.(To be smart , pick on a few really reliable trustworthy revsharers too maybe on the exits , that can lead to a nice little "pension" of a few grand a mth that last for ever!)

So in this example...

You make 5400 a day.
In the other way you get say $90 (over a period of time to your paysites)
10400 a day...but it takes a while to come in..

In the meantime you have all the headaches...

Now if you can open a paysite chain and get a few good affiliates then it really does become worth it.

But as I said..for me ...currently , between JUST me and my brother , we can by various means send 50 joins a day.(Fuck me its taken a while to build up to EVEN that level again after letting it drop) We will however double that within 8 weeks.

We can do it without having a big showcase TGP

Without worrying about processing

Without worrying at all about any staff.

We can do it "low profile"

We can do it without relying on anyone except ourselves.And after 33 yrs , we sorta trust each other ;-))

It also frees me up to do things I'm good at , (I hate and suck at adminning paysites) which is wonder around chatting to people ,seeing what good ideas they have

See the other thing was 50 joins a day compared to the 300 plus I used to do was pathetic....however..having taken over this board and starting to chat with people again , I have discovered the definition of "hitter" has really changed.

It seems rebuilding from scatch within weeks I'm a still a B class webmaster. (Basically top SE and spammers have it at the ""A")

But....

I have no fucking overhead.

Not a red cent.

Its exactly how I started in 96/97. Build up traffic again. and send 50 joins a day this mth.60 joins a day next month.......By early April I will be easily sending out over 100 joins a day.

Hell by summer it will be hookers and yea time again!!!

;-))))

(sorry for this rant but the one thing I want for Opreano is business , not hype ,not bullshit , statements based on actual experience , not bs.)

imported_Technick

01-11-2005, 11:38 AM

It's true...we should see see sixty joins plus today. We always grow back up quicker than we think too :) Of course our traffic and ability to make joins tends to be directly related to my brother's state of sobriety.....probably get beaten for that but it has to be said:)

rhymer11

01-11-2005, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Nickatilynx+Jan 11 2005, 08:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nickatilynx @ Jan 11 2005, 08:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by rhymer11@Jan 11 2005, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by Opti@Jan 11 2005, 06:21 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Nickatilynx@Jan 11 2005, 10:26 AM
I remember what Sserge said to me back in 97 about opening paysites..

"Nick, you have traffic , someone will always want traffic , let the person that pays you for the traffic have all the headaches."

I'm edging that way again....lol
Traffic is king... fuck content headaches!! :cdance:
no content. no traffic. No chicken. No egg. :blink:
Rhymer,

Sorry but you really don't know what you are talking about.

The Best sources of traffic , bar none are:
1.) Search engines
2.) Mail

Garnering these traffic sources in no way requires content.

When you create, control, market and sell your own product, it stands to reason that you will maximize your profit. - rhymer

In your case "your wife"

Call it scrub. Call it oversaturation. Call it a shave. But for the past year I cant come anywhere near making what I make off of my own sites when I send it to someone else.

I agree 100%.
However its a thing of scale.And trust me I've done it.

You send 200 joins per day to your own sites.

You now need , customer service , a fulltime webmaster to update , a designer , an office etc etc etc ,content , processing that can handle that volume , scrub control.
Now if it is say , pharma, you need to be able to ship , store and process each order.

It becomes a nightmare.

Lets say for argument , becuase of your volume , you can shop around and minimise "scrub" etc etc.

The 200 joins a day from the same traffic to your own sites become say 120 a day to others. They pay you $45 for these joins.(To be smart , pick on a few really reliable trustworthy revsharers too maybe on the exits , that can lead to a nice little "pension" of a few grand a mth that last for ever!)

So in this example...

You make 5400 a day.
In the other way you get say $90 (over a period of time to your paysites)
10400 a day...but it takes a while to come in..

In the meantime you have all the headaches...

Now if you can open a paysite chain and get a few good affiliates then it really does become worth it.

But as I said..for me ...currently , between JUST me and my brother , we can by various means send 50 joins a day.(Fuck me its taken a while to build up to EVEN that level again after letting it drop) We will however double that within 8 weeks.

We can do it without having a big showcase TGP

Without worrying about processing

Without worrying at all about any staff.

We can do it "low profile"

We can do it without relying on anyone except ourselves.And after 33 yrs , we sorta trust each other ;-))

It also frees me up to do things I'm good at , (I hate and suck at adminning paysites) which is wonder around chatting to people ,seeing what good ideas they have

See the other thing was 50 joins a day compared to the 300 plus I used to do was pathetic....however..having taken over this board and starting to chat with people again , I have discovered the definition of "hitter" has really changed.

It seems rebuilding from scatch within weeks I'm a still a B class webmaster. (Basically top SE and spammers have it at the ""A")

But....

I have no fucking overhead.

Not a red cent.

Its exactly how I started in 96/97. Build up traffic again. and send 50 joins a day this mth.60 joins a day next month.......By early April I will be easily sending out over 100 joins a day.

Hell by summer it will be hookers and yea time again!!!

;-))))

(sorry for this rant but the one thing I want for Opreano is business , not hype ,not bullshit , statements based on actual experience , not bs.) [/b][/quote]
"When you create, control, market and sell your own product, it stands to reason that you will maximize your profit. "

In your case "your wife".....bullshit, bullshit, bullshit You have no idea about the whole equation.

Let me put to you this way. My "modest" profits have amounted to millions over the years. I have never crashed and burned and have never had aspirations to moving huge amounts of traffic. It is way too much of a headache and mindfuck.

I post here with another way of earning a good living on the net. You are pulling yourself up by the bootstraps. Something I have never in my life had to do. That alone speaks volumes. I actually applaud you for that.

Now having said that, content will bring a good profit and a good life. WTF is wrong with that exactly? What we don't need on the internet is another generation of traffic monkeys clogging up the pipeline.

This is just business. Not necessarily your business, but business just the same.

rhymer11

01-11-2005, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Technick@Jan 11 2005, 08:39 AM
It's true...we should see see sixty joins plus today. We always grow back up quicker than we think too :) Of course our traffic and ability to make joins tends to be directly related to my brother's state of sobriety.....probably get beaten for that but it has to be said:)
Congratulations and I wish you all the best...both of you. Nick I am trying hard here.

Nickatilynx

01-11-2005, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by rhymer11+Jan 11 2005, 08:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rhymer11 @ Jan 11 2005, 08:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Technick@Jan 11 2005, 08:39 AM
It's true...we should see see sixty joins plus today. We always grow back up quicker than we think too :) Of course our traffic and ability to make joins tends to be directly related to my brother's state of sobriety.....probably get beaten for that but it has to be said:)
Congratulations and I wish you all the best...both of you. Nick I am trying hard here. [/b][/quote]
I have to give it to you.

You really are.

Problem is there were a few pretty outlandish posts in your beginnings here.

That said , I truly do think especially recently , your posts have become helpful are obviously sincere and are thought through from your perspective.

I , personally, do not intend to really fuck with you , except in normal webboard thrust and parry.

rhymer11

01-11-2005, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Nickatilynx+Jan 11 2005, 08:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nickatilynx @ Jan 11 2005, 08:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by rhymer11@Jan 11 2005, 08:45 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Technick@Jan 11 2005, 08:39 AM
It's true...we should see see sixty joins plus today. We always grow back up quicker than we think too :) Of course our traffic and ability to make joins tends to be directly related to my brother's state of sobriety.....probably get beaten for that but it has to be said:)
Congratulations and I wish you all the best...both of you. Nick I am trying hard here.
I have to give it to you.

You really are.

Problem is there were a few pretty outlandish posts in your beginnings here.

That said , I truly do think especially recently , your posts have become helpful are obviously sincere and are thought through from your perspective.

I , personally, do not intend to really fuck with you , except in normal webboard thrust and parry. [/b][/quote]
I do my best. I have a lot of experience doing this and will share it when I can. I have never shied away from that. New blood is what keeps the business functioning and needs nurturing.

TheEnforcer

01-11-2005, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jan 11 2005, 11:53 AM

I , personally, do not intend to really fuck with you , except in normal webboard thrust and parry.
I'll just bet you want to thrust and parry with him!! :lol:

*KK*

01-11-2005, 12:55 PM

Hahaha, this was certainly never intended to become a debate on whether or not Nick's money goes as fast as his judgement when he's on the sauce.

Nor was it intended to be a discussion as to whether or not content oriented folks will ever understand the true value of traffic opposed to content ;)

cj made a comment that her chargebacks were a lot higher when she ran sales through an IPSP model -- anyone else who has utilized both notice that?

And what are other things about your billing -- regardless of whose merchant account you are on, that confuse you or make you say hmmmm, when you see them on your statement or in your stats?

Nickatilynx

01-11-2005, 01:05 PM

Threads end up on a path of there own on Oprano , you of all people know that. ;-))

A political thread can end up as a movie review thread and "pic of my dog" thread can end up as a discussion on "Quantum Physics"

;-))

*KK*

01-11-2005, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jan 11 2005, 10:06 AM
Threads end up on a path of there own on Oprano , you of all people know that. ;-))

A political thread can end up as a movie review thread and "pic of my dog" thread can end up as a discussion on "Quantum Physics"

;-))
Don't I know it. Once I get a goat and a broom in the thread, I'll be happy ;)

Netbilling

01-13-2005, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Jan 9 2005, 02:57 AM
I haven't done the legwork to setup a merchant account yet, although we're probably the prototypical good candidate for it in adult. Low price points, we dont push the envelope at all with billing tricks, affiliates by invite only and we deliver what we promise. So we have NO chargebacks.

We started down the road with Netbilling a few months back, but waived off for a couple of reasons. First off the lady we were dealing with, although polite, was very obviously a "phone person". Anyone who knows me, knows you need to communicate electronically whenever possible or we're not going to get along. If I ask a simple question in email and you spend all day trying to tag up with me on my phone and never get me my answer, we're not doing business.

That aside, during the same time I learned from GonZo that he needed to make some sort of adjustment to his account with them and couldn't get anything more than a voicemail box to try to get it taken care of.

All these things set off red flags with me. I speculated at the time that they were over loaded from people fleeing iPSPs due to IBill and other issues.

Anyone else using them for a hands on review?

Any other vendors out there helping guide people thru the process of getting their own merchant account? There cant be many banks left in the U.S. who'll touch adult.
Hi,

We are certainly phone poeple but do use ICQ and email quite extensively. We build our relationships with face to face meetings and on the phone mostly. I'm sorry if that does not work for you but I hope we can serve you in the future.

Mitch