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View Full Version : Important case going before Supreme's Tuesday!


Mike AI
12-04-2004, 06:29 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6612865/

Robert Plummer had no desire to flout his state's laws.



The clinical psychologist from Saginaw, Mich., convinced his favorite wineries, tiny California operations, to ship him a precious few bottles each year. He often trusted winemakers enough to place orders by phone after a mere description of their latest bottlings. Then in 2001, UPS discovered what they were delivering to Plummer's door.

"And the state promptly smashed all the bottles," Plummer says. "Lost some very good pinot that year."

Wine lovers in two dozen states, where wine cannot be directly shipped to consumers, share the same frustrations. These connoisseurs enviously watch their counterparts elsewhere in the nation buy wine not available in their own states online or by phone, and have it delivered to their doorsteps.

Over the past five years, direct shipping has become the wine industry's most contentious fight, and perhaps the most convoluted issue in interstate commerce.

On Tuesday, the U.S. Supreme Court will take up the debate. Sometime next year, the justices will answer a specific question: Can a state let its own wineries ship wine to residents, yet prohibit other states' winemakers from doing so?

That's just what Michigan and New York, two states with rapidly growing wine industries, have done. So Virginia winemaker Juanita Swedenburg, California winemaker David Lucas and three New York wine lovers sued New York officials; Michigan wine critics Ray and Eleanor Heald sued their state. The Healds won their case in federal appeals court, while winemakers lost the New York case on appeal.




Now, the high court justices must decide whether the Commerce Clause, a long-held federal doctrine that bars states from limiting interstate commerce, trumps the 21st Amendment,
which gives states the right to regulate alcohol.

Even if the Supreme Court sides with wineries, wine won't freely flow across all state borders. States such as Utah prohibit any shipping, and dry localities across the country would continue to limit sales. But anyone who can buy directly from a winery in their state could do the same with wineries elsewhere.

Legal celebrities weigh in
The case pits two conservative values — free trade and states' rights — against each other. That wine is at issue only complicates the matter because although it is alcohol, it can be either a commodity or a luxury collectible.

As such, it has attracted legal celebrities like Ken Starr (for the wineries) and Robert Bork (siding with wholesalers), and legal briefs from shippers like UPS and FedEx, dozens of state attorneys general, Nobel laureates and conservative groups like the Eagle Forum.

"There are deeper principles involved here," says Daniel McFadden, a Nobel-winning economist at the University of California at Berkeley who filed a pro-shipping brief. "I would hope the Supreme Court would go back to fundamental principles, which is that the government should not interfere with private commerce unless there's a clear and pressing social objective to do so."

Direct sales soar
Wine shipments have little direct impact on the average American. Most drinkers still buy their wine in stores, and the nation's largest wineries sell most of their wine through a "three-tier" system, which ensures that different companies produce, distribute and sell alcohol. That system has been enforced since Prohibition ended in 1933, and it all but guarantees wholesalers a lucrative role in the liquor industry.

Yet direct shipments of wine have been an accepted practice for nearly two decades in states such as California, which produces most of the nation's wine, and twelve other states where reciprocal laws guarantee residents' shipping rights.

Prior to the mid-1990s, shipments often quietly crossed state lines, but the advent of e-commerce caused direct sales to explode.

These sales mean a lot to businesspeople like Swedenburg, whose winery in Middleburg, Va., relies on tourists to sell most of its 2,500 cases of wine each year. Though many are eager to buy, she must ask where they live, and often refuses to sell. To her, this is nothing more than the wholesalers engaging in protectionism.

"They're really determined to protect their monopoly," Swedenburg says. "They don't want one bottle of wine to go through."

Most wholesalers would agree with her on that last point, actually. They defend their role as gatekeepers of a sin product, keeping liquor out of the wrong hands and ensuring that states collect taxes.

"You start breaking down these systems of safeguards and you create virtual alcohol anarchy," says Karen Gravois, a vice president of the Wine and Spirits Wholesalers of America.

Competing with the three-tier system
Many in the industry believe the three-tier system rewards economies of scale. The top 50 U.S. wineries — familiar names like E&J Gallo and conglomerates like Constellation Wines (think Inglenook or Arbor Mist) — produce 95 percent of the wine Americans consume. Similarly, the $32 billion wholesale liquor industry has consolidated since the 1960s, with more than two-thirds controlled by the top 20 wholesalers, according to Impact, an industry newsletter.




Wholesalers largely control which brands make it to shelves, a process that necessarily highlights producers with big marketing budgets. Small wineries see direct shipping as the only way to compete in markets where their wine isn't otherwise sold.

Few small wineries believe a victory would vastly boost revenues, though some believe it would expand their customer base by up to 60 percent.

These shipments represent a tiny fraction of overall liquor sales, and little evidence exists that they are a drain on distributors or retailers. Still, the wholesale industry portrays dire consequences should shipping laws change — when they discuss the matter at all. None of the nation's top three wholesalers, which earn nearly one-third of the industry's revenues, would discuss direct shipping on the record for this article.

Underage drinkers
Wholesalers view the current case in part as a threat to 75-year-old protections against what long ago was a largely corrupt industry.

Wholesalers, and officials in states with shipping bans, insist that minors use direct sales — especially those conducted online. They believe a retail clerk must verify buyers' ages in person. Juanita Duggan, CEO of the wholesalers' association, has called online sales "fraught with danger."

States such as Massachusetts occasionally find instances of underage purchases. So do private groups, including an effort this year by a Gonzaga University student organization with ties to billionaire activist Richard Mellon Scaife. But there is little evidence of a problem shipping premium wines.

A 2004 National Academy of Sciences study found 10 percent of underage drinkers purchased alcohol online, but also noted that 40 percent to 90 percent of all retailers report selling to minors. It said liquor shipments should be marked as such and require an adult signature, but saw bigger concerns with minors buying liquor in person, or getting it from family and friends.

Similarly, a 2003 Federal Trade Commission report determined many states effectively handled underage shipping concerns, often by requiring out-of-state wineries to obtain sales permits. Wineries themselves endorse tougher measures like adult signatures.

"This temperance issue really is another one of their red herrings," says Tracy Genesen of Coalition for Free Trade, who is coordinating wineries' legal efforts. "They want control over choice."

Lost tax dollars
States, at least, haven't raised any big flags over lost revenue.

In Texas, where direct shipments began in July 2003 after a court invalidated a shipping ban, the state's Alcoholic Beverage Commission estimates 20,000 bottles are being shipped each month, with a cumulative loss of about $8,000 in excise taxes. But steadily rising wine consumption and tax revenues on wine have more than made up the difference.

"Right now, we don't feel like we're losing a lot of tax money," says Carolyn Beck of the Texas commission.

JoesHO
12-04-2004, 06:52 PM
what about a compromise? like charge the tax in the recieving local, and pay it annually, or some kind of registration to ship into that local? why is the supreme court needing to decide this issue?

Nickatilynx
12-04-2004, 07:00 PM
Sending shipments of wine and absinthe from Canada to the states I've had them seized.Even walking them accross the border , they have sometimes been grabbed off the guy.

Mike AI
12-04-2004, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by JoesHO1@Dec 4 2004, 06:53 PM
what about a compromise? like charge the tax in the recieving local, and pay it annually, or some kind of registration to ship into that local? why is the supreme court needing to decide this issue?
InterState Commerce Clause - that is why Supremes are involved.

To me its just some fat cats trying to protect their monopolies!

SykkBoy
12-04-2004, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI+Dec 4 2004, 08:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Dec 4 2004, 08:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JoesHO1@Dec 4 2004, 06:53 PM
what about a compromise? like charge the tax in the recieving local, and pay it annually, or some kind of registration to ship into that local? why is the supreme court needing to decide this issue?
InterState Commerce Clause - that is why Supremes are involved.

To me its just some fat cats trying to protect their monopolies! [/b][/quote]
holy crap, Mike, something we agree on :)
if I want to get ice wine here in nevada (and ensure I get it ;-)) I have to order it through a local distributor, there is ONE who will order it, but they have to special order it and they charge twice normal price...I could almost fly to vancouver to get a bottle myself for that price....(although I never had a problem buying it at the airport in BC and bringing it home)

buckethead
12-04-2004, 10:55 PM
Simple laws of business are the to protect our interests as businessmen.

If this was a law in effect at the time , then it is up to our court system to decide the issue.

Dry counties, and bootleggers have exsisted for years.

How local do you think the laws on drinking should be? How about the national age of 21 for drinking now?

PornoDoggy
12-05-2004, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by Mike AI+Dec 4 2004, 08:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Dec 4 2004, 08:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JoesHO1@Dec 4 2004, 06:53 PM
what about a compromise? like charge the tax in the recieving local, and pay it annually, or some kind of registration to ship into that local? why is the supreme court needing to decide this issue?
InterState Commerce Clause - that is why Supremes are involved.

To me its just some fat cats trying to protect their monopolies! [/b][/quote]
I'm pretty sure it's more than just the Interstate Commerce clause - it also involves some of the regulations and restrictions placed on the spirits industry when it was re-legalized. (I did some consulting work in the legal department of a beverage company famous for their hairy-footed horses).

Actually, it's really more about states (and municipalities) trying to protect a revenue stream. The folks who distrute liquour, wine and beer are generally small businesses.

The true fat cats would love nothing more than to see those laws go away.

Winetalk.com
12-05-2004, 12:26 AM
I swupport the present system...I already run out of space to store wines available!

Imagine what hasppens when I put my hands on wineries not available!?
;_))

slavdogg
12-05-2004, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by SykkBoy@Dec 4 2004, 10:33 PM
if I want to get ice wine here in nevada (and ensure I get it ;-)) I have to order it through a local distributor, there is ONE who will order it, but they have to special order it and they charge twice normal price...I could almost fly to vancouver to get a bottle myself for that price....(although I never had a problem buying it at the airport in BC and bringing it home)
Can you get wine from California ?
The distributor that i got my ice wine from (the one Forest got fired from) is based in San Diego

Hell Puppy
12-05-2004, 04:03 AM
Liquor is a very protected industry in most states because they can tax the hell out of it.

Georgia is among the most backwards. We absolutely cant get wine thru the mail, other than person to person, and I'm not certain that is legal. The problem here is the good ole boy network is in full force. The liquor distributors in this state keep the legislature well greased to keep out the competition.

And there are still counties here that are dry or partially dry (beer only, or beer and wine only).


I shouldn't bitch though, saves me money to not have the temptation to be able to easily try lots and lots of wines.

Vick
12-05-2004, 04:28 AM
Florence Ballard, Mary Wilson and Diane Ross have been the background sound for a lot of wine drinking

I can see why someone wanted to bring a case of wine to them . :wacko: :hic: :agrin:

gigi
12-05-2004, 01:20 PM
This confuses me. I understand the principle, and I agree with Mike (wow!)...just some big wigs trying to protect their monopoly....BUT, if you have a GOOD product....one that is 'differen't than the others, the competition wouldn't matter so much??

Take California...very popular for their wine. Cali wine is different from French wine which is different from Italian wine and so on.....people tend to stick with a type of wine they like....if NY and MI wine makers each produce a unique type of wine, they will each cater to a different audience....not the same audience.

Am I totally off here? (completely possible because I'm not even at novice level where wine is concerned....I mix all my wine with 7up thanks to my Nonna.) :rolleyes:

Nickatilynx
12-05-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by slavdogg+Dec 5 2004, 12:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (slavdogg @ Dec 5 2004, 12:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SykkBoy@Dec 4 2004, 10:33 PM
if I want to get ice wine here in nevada (and ensure I get it ;-)) I have to order it through a local distributor, there is ONE who will order it, but they have to special order it and they charge twice normal price...I could almost fly to vancouver to get a bottle myself for that price....(although I never had a problem buying it at the airport in BC and bringing it home)
Can you get wine from California ?
The distributor that i got my ice wine from (the one Forest got fired from) is based in San Diego [/b][/quote]
Slav,

I can get icewines.

With the meetibngs due to take place with the new management in BC , we could open the Ice Wine Route.

Have webmasters crossing the border with trunks full of icewine.

;-)))

SykkBoy
12-05-2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by slavdogg+Dec 5 2004, 03:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (slavdogg @ Dec 5 2004, 03:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SykkBoy@Dec 4 2004, 10:33 PM
if I want to get ice wine here in nevada (and ensure I get it ;-)) I have to order it through a local distributor, there is ONE who will order it, but they have to special order it and they charge twice normal price...I could almost fly to vancouver to get a bottle myself for that price....(although I never had a problem buying it at the airport in BC and bringing it home)
Can you get wine from California ?
The distributor that i got my ice wine from (the one Forest got fired from) is based in San Diego [/b][/quote]
I'll have to check it out
everytime they call me to sell me a case, I can't get a word in edgewise....and they keep trying to sell me fucking wines I don't want ;-)

Dravyk
12-06-2004, 01:35 PM
Not sure how many other states have this, but we don't have "liquor stores" in Pennsylvania, we have "state stores". Liquor is sold by the state, stores are run by state employees. In fact, 30 colleges and universities are directly supported by sales of liquor, that is, their funding does not come from the general coffers but is directly tied in. The initial reason for this was to keep the Mafia out. Obviously it became a way for the state to hire more employees and make tons of money too.

Most of us here on the banks of the Delaware tend to "illegally" cross over to Jersey to get out spirits. There is competition there and so much lower prices, so we "sneak it in over the border" routinely. Natch, we too can't "ship" in wine.