The Death Penalty

[TheEnforcer]

So, which is it and why?

[Diamond Jim]

I think we should go at least one step further, and have the Torture Penalty for dickheads who kill their wives and unborn children....particularly if the dickhead is found a few football fields away from the Mexican border with a load of cash in his pockets, a passport, and sporting a new beard with recently dyed hair...

[sarettah]

If we could guarantee that the person being executed was for 100% sure guilty, I would hvae no problem with the death penalty.

As long as there is even the most remote chance that an innocent person is being executed, I will be against the death penalty cause that innocent person could be me.....

[TheEnforcer]

Suppose I should weigh in since I started the thread. I do not support the death penalty because I don't feel the government thas a right to take anything away they don't have the ability to give back.

[Diamond Jim]

Originally posted by TheEnforcer@Nov 12 2004, 05:28 PM
Suppose I should weigh in since I started the thread. I do not support the death penalty because I don't feel the government thas a right to take anything away they don't have the ability to give back.
Then they shouldn't be allowed to imprison anyone for life, either...how are they going to give the years back?

Government? Give back?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[dantheman]

eye for a eye

[dig420]

There are people who deserve to die, but I refuse to let them bring me down to their level. No death penalty. Not as a boon to them, but to me.

[gigi]

Originally posted by Diamond Jim@Nov 12 2004, 02:07 PM
I think we should go at least one step further, and have the Torture Penalty for dickheads who kill their wives and unborn children....particularly if the dickhead is found a few football fields away from the Mexican border with a load of cash in his pockets, a passport, and sporting a new beard with recently dyed hair...
I couldn't agree more....fuck the death penalty....the torture penalty makes much more sense. :ph34r:

[TheEnforcer]

Originally posted by Diamond Jim+Nov 12 2004, 05:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Diamond Jim @ Nov 12 2004, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TheEnforcer@Nov 12 2004, 05:28 PM
Suppose I should weigh in since I started the thread. I do not support the death penalty because I don't feel the government thas a right to take anything away they don't have the ability to give back.
Then they shouldn't be allowed to imprison anyone for life, either...how are they going to give the years back?

Government? Give back?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA [/b][/quote]
Uh.. hate to break it to you Diamond Jim but the government can give you back your freedom after having taken it away.

[Diamond Jim]

Originally posted by TheEnforcer@Nov 12 2004, 09:37 PM
Uh.. hate to break it to you Diamond Jim but the government can give you back your freedom after having taken it away.
I can't even begin to debate the logic underlying that statement..instead, I shall say goodnight in my wine haze..

G'night!

[Hell Puppy]

Bring back public executions.

And I'm not just talking about hangings, draw and quarter the ones who commit particularly heinous crimes.

[gonzo]

If Georgia ever brings back old Sparky....I think Ive moved a bit up the list to pull one of the levers. Get dinner too!

[Almighty Colin]

Against. No good reason. That's what the mother neuron decided.

[Winetalk.com]

For.
Responcible taxpayers do NOT support the expence of prisons

[Vick]

My best 2 arguments for the death penalty have already been made here, my other is tied to the public execution - deterrent


Why should taxpayers support anything in prison for 20 years? Off the top of my head it costs about 30K per year (or more) to house a prisoner x that by 20 years
The taxpayer foots a bill of $600,000 - but we won't spend that much on public education

Can you please see what's wrong there, that is a sincerely screwed priority


Am all in favor of public executions being on pay per view. Let's turn an expense into a profit. If a criminal knows they will fry on TV for all to see do you think that's a deterrent?

I'm ready to go back to penal colonies for hard crimes. These are people with no respect for human life, why do we bother tho respect their's (don't hand me the we are better than that)

I'll admit we also need more education available (and perhaps medical treatments) for all to offset the (what some may see as the) need for anyone to commit heinous crimes

[PornoDoggy]

For, in some cases.

Stickler for process, however. If the State deems life so valuable that taking one illegally causes the perp to forfeit his life, the state has the obligation to make goddamn sure they are right when they do so.

Using the most contemporary example, I certainly have no objection if the State of California decides to allow Scott Peterson to get a three-drug cocktail - once his lawyers have their chance to appeal any issues they think warrant it.

I'd be a lot more in favor of the death penalty if it could be applied to prosecutors and cops who committ perjury or other misconduct in a capital case. Withhold exculpatory evidence or "testi-lie" on the stand - that's fucking attempted murder.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Vick@Nov 13 2004, 09:04 AM
If a criminal knows they will fry on TV for all to see do you think that's a deterrent?


Vick, studies show that it wouldn't be a detterent, just the opposite.

Human beings are notoriously known to go extra mile for their 15 minutes of fame!

[Vick]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Nov 13 2004, 09:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Nov 13 2004, 09:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Vick@Nov 13 2004, 09:04 AM
If a criminal knows they will fry on TV for all to see do you think that's a deterrent?


Vick, studies show that it wouldn't be a detterent, just the opposite.

Human beings are notoriously known to go extra mile for their 15 minutes of fame! [/b][/quote]
All the better

[OldJeff]

Absolutely for BUT....

Only in cases of undeniable proof (and there are those cases out there)

Death penalty is not about deterrant, it is about punishment, that one little item we seem to have forgotten as a country.

Every action should have consequences.

Also Jail should be so miserable no one should ever want to go back.

Why are there so many repeat offenders... Warm Bed, 3 squares, cable Tv, broadband internet, workout rooms, shit, half of these people have a better life inside than they did out.

Make big rocks little for 10 hours a day, or hire Ex Drill Instructors to run things. The military has a fantastic way of tearing people down to raw material and rebuilding them into something different.

6 years of basic training would probably alter somones desire to steal another car and get sent back.

[RawAlex]

OJ: The term you are looking for is "three hots and a cot". Many repeaters don't see this as a problem, just a time to chill out and work on your physique a bit.

Me? I am all for the death penalty. 110%.

Further, I am all for "doing the time". Less half way houses, transitions, early release, and the rest of that crap (Canada is famous for being soft on criminals, letting most of the out at 2/3 sentence). You get 10 years, you do 10 years. No parole, no BS.

On top, the prisons should be PRISONS, not social clubs for misfits. Segregation, isolation, and intense therapy sessions would make this a real punishment with some real hope for redemption at the end, not just a revolving door flop house.

Alex

[Rolo]

I´m against - the aftermath of a murder is charged with emotions, and facts can be ignored... However if we must have calculated revenge, then it will only serve the victims family, and not society as a whole - so give the victim´s family the chance to forgive a defendant or to give the death penalty.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Diamond Jim@Nov 12 2004, 05:07 PM
I think we should go at least one step further, and have the Torture Penalty for dickheads who kill their wives and unborn children....particularly if the dickhead is found a few football fields away from the Mexican border with a load of cash in his pockets, a passport, and sporting a new beard with recently dyed hair...

:okthumb:

Jim I am here to help run any political campaign you are ready to mount! I bet you could be a congressman from Arizona!!

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Vick@Nov 13 2004, 09:04 AM
Why should taxpayers support anything in prison for 20 years? Off the top of my head it costs about 30K per year (or more) to house a prisoner x that by 20 years
The taxpayer foots a bill of $600,000 - but we won't spend that much on public education

Can you please see what's wrong there, that is a sincerely screwed priority
Figure out a way for the inmates to generate income for the state. There must be something that can be profit-generating that doesn't involve sharp objects. Hell, make them grow their own food. I can see it now. Green thumb prisoners.

[Almighty Colin]

Send them all to Iraq. That's right. Give them grenades and rifles. Film their basic training and make a reality TV show out of it. Sell it to FOX for many millions. When they come back, they can go to their cells and wait for the next war.

[RawAlex]

Originally posted by Colin+Nov 15 2004, 10:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Nov 15 2004, 10:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Vick@Nov 13 2004, 09:04 AM
Why should taxpayers support anything in prison for 20 years? Off the top of my head it costs about 30K per year (or more) to house a prisoner x that by 20 years
The taxpayer foots a bill of $600,000 - but we won't spend that much on public education

Can you please see what's wrong there, that is a sincerely screwed priority
Figure out a way for the inmates to generate income for the state. There must be something that can be profit-generating that doesn't involve sharp objects. Hell, make them grow their own food. I can see it now. Green thumb prisoners. [/b][/quote]
Colin, creating and forcing inmates to work really serves no good for anyone. People who would have done the work on the outside lose their jobs, and inmates get paid next to nothing for their labors. There is VERY little upside, especially because almost anything can be turned into a shank... which creates danger in the jails.

Prisoners need to be in their little boxes as along as the law allows, and given only the "required minimum" exercise and fresh air. They should never be together in groups, and there should be no way for them to interact between each other.

Further, I think that prisoners should never get the same cell twice, no personalization that they cannot carry in their hands. Every day, out for exercise, put your belongings in a box, and that box is xrayed and then shipped to they new cell for the next night. That would help to break up the little cliques, the trouble makers, and the people who hide things in the cells.

Prisoners need to be treated like the criminals they are, not like people at a spa or day camp.

Alex

[Evil Chris]

"Eye for an eye" sounds too fundamental for my taste.

Talking about taxpayers dollars? Don't pump it into jails, rather pump it into social systems that would reverse the need for so many jails.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Nov 15 2004, 10:35 AM
Colin, creating and forcing inmates to work really serves no good for anyone. People who would have done the work on the outside lose their jobs, and inmates get paid next to nothing for their labors. There is VERY little upside, especially because almost anything can be turned into a shank... which creates danger in the jails.

Why should I work to pay for the room/board of a prisoner? If the state pays for the prisoner that means that every working person in the US contributes to a fund that pays $30k/year for each prisoner. Any part of that which is paid as a result of the prisoner's work is a decreased burden on the tax payer. The number of jobs is not zero sum. It's a NET benefit for prisoners to pay their way instead of "us" paying their way. That's the choice. Either WE pay or THEY pay.

Prison labor should be available in a bidding system. Let's get the sweat shops rolling. Hell, we could preferentially permit companies which currently outsource assembly work and such to foreign countries into the first round of bidding.

But prison labor is already a reality. There are already companies that specalize in prison labor. US companies already use such labor and it saves them a lot of money. It is just not ubiquitous.

[RawAlex]

Chris, one of the most interesting reports I read was a couple of years back, where they showed that in most major Canadian cities, the police deal with people on parole or early release more often than any other group. People who should have been behind bars instead of out of the streets (except for those manditory early release deals, double credits for time served waiting to go to court, etc) end up costing the police huge amounts of time and money.

Keeping these people in jail would almost certainly lead to lower crime rates, as there would be less of them on the streets to do the crimes.

The death penalty removes violent people from society, so nobody else has to risk being killed or injured by them. Manditory full sentences leads to less criminals on the streets.

Society created the concept of "jail" and "punishment" for a reason. Going soft on it just leads to people getting away with murder.

Alex

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Vick@Nov 13 2004, 09:04 AM
I'm ready to go back to penal colonies for hard crimes.
"Banishment". I like it. The idea of prison is that someone can't or didn't abide by the social contract necessary to live within society therefore they must be removed from the society. But if they remain a constant and everlasting tax on society by remaining in prisons at our expense they are really not banished.

[gonzo]

Originally posted by RawAlex+Nov 15 2004, 10:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RawAlex @ Nov 15 2004, 10:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Colin@Nov 15 2004, 10:10 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Vick@Nov 13 2004, 09:04 AM
Why should taxpayers support anything in prison for 20 years? Off the top of my head it costs about 30K per year (or more) to house a prisoner x that by 20 years
The taxpayer foots a bill of $600,000 - but we won't spend that much on public education

Can you please see what's wrong there, that is a sincerely screwed priority
Figure out a way for the inmates to generate income for the state. There must be something that can be profit-generating that doesn't involve sharp objects. Hell, make them grow their own food. I can see it now. Green thumb prisoners.
Colin, creating and forcing inmates to work really serves no good for anyone. People who would have done the work on the outside lose their jobs, and inmates get paid next to nothing for their labors. There is VERY little upside, especially because almost anything can be turned into a shank... which creates danger in the jails.

Prisoners need to be in their little boxes as along as the law allows, and given only the "required minimum" exercise and fresh air. They should never be together in groups, and there should be no way for them to interact between each other.

Further, I think that prisoners should never get the same cell twice, no personalization that they cannot carry in their hands. Every day, out for exercise, put your belongings in a box, and that box is xrayed and then shipped to they new cell for the next night. That would help to break up the little cliques, the trouble makers, and the people who hide things in the cells.

Prisoners need to be treated like the criminals they are, not like people at a spa or day camp.

Alex [/b][/quote]
Alex ---

Catch a ride the next time the Devil Comes Down to Georgia...

I can take you on a tour where our inmates work on the farm.

They work with cattle as well and process the meat in a meat processing plant.

They grow it --- they harvest it --- and they process it.

Those that cant behave get the real good jobs ...varying from shoveling shit tfor fertilzer to picking up trash along the highway. If your real good you can even make license plates.

The ex Commisoner have them boys up at 6AM for a 3 mile run every morning before breakfast. He told the Gov.... if it was good enough for him to do every day it was good enough for them.

I can tell you one of the reasons that they get all the good care is because the prison system has some of the best legal minds in the state. Theres an old law on the books here which mandates that in order for prisoners to be rehabilitated they must have unrestricted access to the law in order to understand what they have been locked up for.

What that means is that in ever prison in this state they have a very extensive law library.... better than many private law schools. So the bubbas can sit around and
file frivolous suit after suit. Everything from the air temperature down to the right to have 3 nutritional meals a day.

And this isnt something Ive read either...Ive been in every prison in this State as well as halfway house and probation office.

Da' convicts gots rights. Just axe em.

[kath]

For, in most cases.

I agree with a lot of the sentiments posted here re: prison time being too easy - trust me, I have the inside scoop on how easy they've got it, at least here in California. If prison were harder then they might not come back as often - the return rate is WAY too high here, with many admitting that they check back in from time to time for medical benefits (dental work needed, surgeries they couldn't afford on the outside, etc.) and other "perks" of being tucked away in the safety of the CDC.

I think most of us would feel that the bad outweighs the good in a situation like that, but these guys have lived this life - they know it's something they can do without much hardship and it's not really a punishment for many of them anymore.

Three strikes is some nice job security for the correctional department (joking/sarcasm), but that really isn't very effective either. Major changes need to happen in order to improve these problems nation-wide. Prison should be hard time - not day camp. We kiss inmate ass way too much IMHO - and that has a lot to do with the continued rise in crime.

</soapbox>

:angry:

[Nickatilynx]

Removing possibility of parole , etc etc makes Corrections a pretty dangerous occupation btw.

"So whats you gonna do , give me another life sentence?"

My father supervised exections in Canada and he was against the Death Penalty.

Here is some info on the effect of removing the Death Penalty

Check it out... (http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php)

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Nov 15 2004, 01:39 PM
Removing possibility of parole , etc etc makes Corrections a pretty dangerous occupation btw.

"So whats you gonna do , give me another life sentence?"

My father supervised exections in Canada and he was against the Death Penalty.

Here is some info on the effect of removing the Death Penalty

Check it out... (http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php)
Interesting point on parole.

The article points out that "in 1998, the homicide rate dipped below 1.9 per 100,000, the lowest rate since the 1960s." Thing is, this was true in much of the western world including the US.

The 2000 US homicide rate was its lowest since the 1960s and lower than the rate was in 1913.

[cj]

Originally posted by Colin+Nov 15 2004, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Nov 15 2004, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Vick@Nov 13 2004, 09:04 AM
I'm ready to go back to penal colonies for hard crimes.
"Banishment". I like it. The idea of prison is that someone can't or didn't abide by the social contract necessary to live within society therefore they must be removed from the society. But if they remain a constant and everlasting tax on society by remaining in prisons at our expense they are really not banished. [/b][/quote]
just don't send them down here :rolleyes:

nick, interesting perspective and a good point ... take away the 'bribery' and they have no reason to behave ... i wouldn't be a prison guard for anything

[kath]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Nov 15 2004, 10:39 AM
Removing possibility of parole , etc etc makes Corrections a pretty dangerous occupation btw.

"So whats you gonna do , give me another life sentence?"

My father supervised exections in Canada and he was against the Death Penalty.

Here is some info on the effect of removing the Death Penalty

Check it out... (http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php)
That's definitely something to think about - interesting article.

I know they are having increasing problems in US corrections with teen felons coming in to do double life sentences... they are young, pissed off, nothing to look forward to, nothing to work hard to hope for - what do they have to lose? They will be old men when/if they get out one day.

Fortunately all the freedoms/things that inmates are allowed to have (some that surprised me like TVs in their cells with taxpayer-paid cable) are used as leverage for behavior - even conjugal visits (California sets up little hotel-room sized cabins on prison grounds for "weekender" visits with wives for model prisoners) are a great way to keep folks in line.

However, IMHO removing the death penalty from the equation entirely would just up the ante on the tension and problems in today's prison systems. Sure - you can take away stuff, visits and priviledges - but how far does that go on someone who has no family, no wife and no $ in their bank for stuff? It just seems that there has to be some sort of ultimate punishment reserved for the most blatantly heinous murderers.

:unsure:

[Jesse_DD]

I am for the death penalty. However, philosophically,
I don't think it works as an agent to deter future crime.
For example - Argument: "How can we teach the community
not to murder by murdering." However, I believe in the
death penalty as a means of punishment: "If you can
bring no good to society and society does not want to
rehabilitate you then why should society keep you here
on earth." That being said I think that 1) the death
penalty should be for special circumstances and 2)
we need to work on expediting the process to keep
the costs lower than housing these criminals for life.

[SykkBoy]

For the most part, I am against the death penalty except in extreme circumstances.
With the advance of things like DNA testing helping to free innocent men, it makes me wonder if we've ever executed an innocent man. If so, that's one of the greatest injustices a society can inflict.

I find it funny that people who would defend the rights of an unborn fetus want to be the first to pull the switch in a case like this...

People feel that putting someone they view as a worse human than them to death somehow makes them feel they are bettering society and makes them feel like justice is served. Vengeance is not justice. Justice means we might have a few guilty men go free, but that's better than even one innocent man being wrongfully put to death.

Yeah, it sucks seeing guys use the appeals system to tie up courts for years and play the system, but it would be even worse to deny all appeals and start executing people, especially people who can't afford decent legal help (remember, OJ didn't walk because he's black, he walked because he's rich...when he walked, it shouldn't ben black people celebrating, it should have been the rich and famous).