Something for consideration

[Vick]

While I don't necessarily agree with the sentiments here (and am anti-political) I respect the person who sent this over to me
Please feel free to copy and post on your sites if you so wish

Here's something to consider (http://www.alsscan.com/graphics/vote2004/makedifference.jpg)

[dantheman]

MATTHEW MANWELLER'S COMMENTARY ON THIS ELECTION

This commentary is from Matthew Manweller, a political science professor at Central Washington University. Here's the text of that commentary:

"In that this will be my last column before the presidential election, there will be no sarcasm, no attempts at witty repartee. The topic is too serious, and the stakes are too high.

This November we will vote in the only election during our lifetime that will truly matter. Because America is at a once-in-a-generation crossroads, more than an election hangs in the balance. Down one path lies retreat, abdication and a reign of ambivalence. Down the other lies a nation that is aware of its past and accepts the daunting obligation its future demands. If we choose poorly, the consequences will echo through the next 50 years of history. If we, in a spasm of frustration, turn out the current occupant of the White House, the message to the world and ourselves will be two-fold.

First, we will reject the notion that America can do big things. Once a nation that tamed a frontier, stood down the Nazis and stood upon the moon, we will announce to the world that bringing democracy to the Middle East is too big a task for us. But more significantly, we will signal to future presidents that as voters, we are unwilling to tackle difficult challenges, preferring caution to boldness, embracing the mediocrity that has characterized other civilizations. The defeat of President Bush will send a chilling message to future presidents who may need to make difficult, yet unpopular decisions. America has always
been a nation that rises to the demands of history regardless of the decisions. America has always been a nation that rises to the demands of history regardless of the costs or appeal. If we turn away from that legacy, we turn away from who we are.

Second, we inform every terrorist organization on the globe that the lesson of Somalia was well learned. In Somalia we showed terrorists that you don't need to defeat America on the battlefield when you can defeat them in the newsroom. They learned that a wounded America can become a defeated America. Twenty-four hour news stations and daily tracing polls will do the heavy lifting, turning a cut into a fatal blow. Except that Iraq is Somalia times 10. The election of John Kerry will serve notice to every terrorist in every cave that the soft underbelly of American power is the timidity of American voters. Terrorists will know that a steady stream of grizzly photos for CNN is all you need to break the will of the American people. Our own self-doubt will take it from there. Bin Laden will recognize that he can topple any American administration without setting foot on the homeland.

It is said that America's WWII generation is its "greatest generation." But my greatest fear is that it will become known as America's "last generation." Born in the bleakness of the Great Depression and hardened in the fire of WWII, they may be the last American generation that understands the meaning of duty, honor, and sacrifice. It is difficult to admit, but I know these terms are spoken with only hollow detachment by many (but not all) in my generation. Too many citizens today mistake "living in America" as "being an American." But America has always been more of an idea than a place. When you sign on, you do more than buy real estate. You accept a set of values and responsibilities. This November, my generation, which has been absent too long, must grasp that 100 years from now historians will look back at the election of 2004 and see it as the decisive election of our century. Depending on the outcome, they will describe it as the moment America joined the ranks of ordinary nations; or they will describe it as the moment the prodigal sons and daughters of the greatest generation accepted their burden as caretakers of the City on the Hill."


:salute:

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by dantheman@Oct 22 2004, 02:13 PM
MATTHEW MANWELLER'S COMMENTARY ON THIS ELECTION

This commentary is from Matthew Manweller, a political science professor at Central Washington University. Here's the text of that commentary:

"In that this will be my last column before the presidential election, there will be no sarcasm, no attempts at witty repartee. The topic is too serious, and the stakes are too high.

This November we will vote in the only election during our lifetime that will truly matter. Because America is at a once-in-a-generation crossroads, more than an election hangs in the balance. Down one path lies retreat, abdication and a reign of ambivalence. Down the other lies a nation that is aware of its past and accepts the daunting obligation its future demands. If we choose poorly, the consequences will echo through the next 50 years of history. If we, in a spasm of frustration, turn out the current occupant of the White House, the message to the world and ourselves will be two-fold.

First, we will reject the notion that America can do big things. Once a nation that tamed a frontier, stood down the Nazis and stood upon the moon, we will announce to the world that bringing democracy to the Middle East is too big a task for us. But more significantly, we will signal to future presidents that as voters, we are unwilling to tackle difficult challenges, preferring caution to boldness, embracing the mediocrity that has characterized other civilizations. The defeat of President Bush will send a chilling message to future presidents who may need to make difficult, yet unpopular decisions. America has always
been a nation that rises to the demands of history regardless of the decisions. America has always been a nation that rises to the demands of history regardless of the costs or appeal. If we turn away from that legacy, we turn away from who we are.

Second, we inform every terrorist organization on the globe that the lesson of Somalia was well learned. In Somalia we showed terrorists that you don't need to defeat America on the battlefield when you can defeat them in the newsroom. They learned that a wounded America can become a defeated America. Twenty-four hour news stations and daily tracing polls will do the heavy lifting, turning a cut into a fatal blow. Except that Iraq is Somalia times 10. The election of John Kerry will serve notice to every terrorist in every cave that the soft underbelly of American power is the timidity of American voters. Terrorists will know that a steady stream of grizzly photos for CNN is all you need to break the will of the American people. Our own self-doubt will take it from there. Bin Laden will recognize that he can topple any American administration without setting foot on the homeland.

It is said that America's WWII generation is its "greatest generation." But my greatest fear is that it will become known as America's "last generation." Born in the bleakness of the Great Depression and hardened in the fire of WWII, they may be the last American generation that understands the meaning of duty, honor, and sacrifice. It is difficult to admit, but I know these terms are spoken with only hollow detachment by many (but not all) in my generation. Too many citizens today mistake "living in America" as "being an American." But America has always been more of an idea than a place. When you sign on, you do more than buy real estate. You accept a set of values and responsibilities. This November, my generation, which has been absent too long, must grasp that 100 years from now historians will look back at the election of 2004 and see it as the decisive election of our century. Depending on the outcome, they will describe it as the moment America joined the ranks of ordinary nations; or they will describe it as the moment the prodigal sons and daughters of the greatest generation accepted their burden as caretakers of the City on the Hill."


:salute:


I think this pretty much sums it up.

[XXXPhoto]

Yes it does Mike... Unfortunately Bush is not the nobel leader this essay paints him to be...

"Duty, honor and sacrifice"? Tell me when he did his 'duty' and looked out for something other than his own interests... Where is the honor in relaxing environmental safeguards via exectutive orders? What sacrifice is there in going to war for your carpetbagging corporate commrades?

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by XXXPhoto@Oct 22 2004, 04:13 PM
Yes it does Mike... Unfortunately Bush is not the nobel leader this essay paints him to be...

"Duty, honor and sacrifice"? Tell me when he did his 'duty' and looked out for something other than his own interests... Where is the honor in relaxing environmental safeguards via exectutive orders? What sacrifice is there in going to war for your carpetbagging corporate commrades?


You have fallen for all the Moore propaganda....

Politicians have millions of ways to make money while in office, they do not have to start a war. You may disagree with war, but to accuse Bush of doing it merely for personal financial gain makes you a loon, and out of touch with reality.

How many companies can do what Halliburton does? How many of them are US companies?

Put your tin foil hat on, these next 2 weeks are going to be bumpy!

[SykkBoy]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Oct 22 2004, 04:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Oct 22 2004, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-XXXPhoto@Oct 22 2004, 04:13 PM
Yes it does Mike... Unfortunately Bush is not the nobel leader this essay paints him to be...

"Duty, honor and sacrifice"? Tell me when he did his 'duty' and looked out for something other than his own interests... Where is the honor in relaxing environmental safeguards via exectutive orders? What sacrifice is there in going to war for your carpetbagging corporate commrades?


You have fallen for all the Moore propaganda....

Politicians have millions of ways to make money while in office, they do not have to start a war. You may disagree with war, but to accuse Bush of doing it merely for personal financial gain makes you a loon, and out of touch with reality.

How many companies can do what Halliburton does? How many of them are US companies?

Put your tin foil hat on, these next 2 weeks are going to be bumpy! [/b][/quote]
so, everyone who leans to the left is under the spell of Michael Moore while all you conservatives are the only ones who can read and make up your own minds?

sometimes I think the only difference between the right and the left is which shepherd they flock to...

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by SykkBoy+Oct 22 2004, 04:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SykkBoy @ Oct 22 2004, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Mike AI@Oct 22 2004, 04:38 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-XXXPhoto@Oct 22 2004, 04:13 PM
Yes it does Mike... Unfortunately Bush is not the nobel leader this essay paints him to be...

"Duty, honor and sacrifice"? Tell me when he did his 'duty' and looked out for something other than his own interests... Where is the honor in relaxing environmental safeguards via exectutive orders? What sacrifice is there in going to war for your carpetbagging corporate commrades?


You have fallen for all the Moore propaganda....

Politicians have millions of ways to make money while in office, they do not have to start a war. You may disagree with war, but to accuse Bush of doing it merely for personal financial gain makes you a loon, and out of touch with reality.

How many companies can do what Halliburton does? How many of them are US companies?

Put your tin foil hat on, these next 2 weeks are going to be bumpy!
so, everyone who leans to the left is under the spell of Michael Moore while all you conservatives are the only ones who can read and make up your own minds?

sometimes I think the only difference between the right and the left is which shepherd they flock to... [/b][/quote]


No, I am saying if you beleive Bush went into Iraq just to put money into his pockets then you are a sheep.

Just as if you think Bush went into Iraq to save the souls of Iraqis, or for any other reason then US interests.

There are definately sheeps on both ends....

Critical thinking is in short supply in this Country.

[SykkBoy]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Oct 22 2004, 05:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Oct 22 2004, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by SykkBoy@Oct 22 2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Oct 22 2004, 04:38 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-XXXPhoto@Oct 22 2004, 04:13 PM
Yes it does Mike... Unfortunately Bush is not the nobel leader this essay paints him to be...

"Duty, honor and sacrifice"? Tell me when he did his 'duty' and looked out for something other than his own interests... Where is the honor in relaxing environmental safeguards via exectutive orders? What sacrifice is there in going to war for your carpetbagging corporate commrades?


You have fallen for all the Moore propaganda....

Politicians have millions of ways to make money while in office, they do not have to start a war. You may disagree with war, but to accuse Bush of doing it merely for personal financial gain makes you a loon, and out of touch with reality.

How many companies can do what Halliburton does? How many of them are US companies?

Put your tin foil hat on, these next 2 weeks are going to be bumpy!
so, everyone who leans to the left is under the spell of Michael Moore while all you conservatives are the only ones who can read and make up your own minds?

sometimes I think the only difference between the right and the left is which shepherd they flock to...


No, I am saying if you beleive Bush went into Iraq just to put money into his pockets then you are a sheep.

Just as if you think Bush went into Iraq to save the souls of Iraqis, or for any other reason then US interests.

There are definately sheeps on both ends....

Critical thinking is in short supply in this Country. [/b][/quote]
I believe Bush went in as a vendetta
but I firmly believe somewhere in the back of his or Cheney's mind was some profit potential
Why not finish the job in Afghanistan first? We still haven't captured Bin Laden.
Peace isn't going to happen in Iraq in the immediate future regardless of who is President.
Has Bush REALLY made us safer? what has he done to ensure this? A few extra men in uniform stopping tourists at the Hoover Dam? Extra people standing around doing nothing at airport security? Dropping bombs in Iraq?
Do you think Michael Moore's movie was 100% bullshit?
Most of the hijackers were Saudis, why aren't we putting the squeeze on the Saudis? (I've been asking this long before F911 came out, btw)

While I'm not doing cartwheels over pulling the lever for Kerry, I just couldn't live with myself if I voted for Bush. This election is kind of like "which competing sleazy used car lot should I buy a shitty car from?".

If we really wanted to fix shit, we'd put Oscar Goodman in the Oval Office. He's done amazing things for Las Vegas and his "connections" certainly help I'm sure... ;-)

[Mike AI]

What job is left in Afganistan? It is one of the wildest places in the world, do we really want 500k American troops there? They are not causing problems anymore.

As far as Saudis, I agree they are the problems in the middle east - I think Bush knows that and one reason he went into Iraq to put leverage on SA. To put pressure on SA directly could lead to unstability, and its in our best interest to have the royal family make the decisions we want, rather then putting the nation in crises.

The only reason the royal family is doing ANYTHING at all against the terrorists is that we are putting pressure on them, mostly indirectly. The Saudis understand what 230k troops on their border means.

[XXXPhoto]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Oct 22 2004, 01:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Oct 22 2004, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-XXXPhoto@Oct 22 2004, 04:13 PM
Yes it does Mike... Unfortunately Bush is not the nobel leader this essay paints him to be...

"Duty, honor and sacrifice"? Tell me when he did his 'duty' and looked out for something other than his own interests... Where is the honor in relaxing environmental safeguards via exectutive orders? What sacrifice is there in going to war for your carpetbagging corporate commrades?


You have fallen for all the Moore propaganda....

Politicians have millions of ways to make money while in office, they do not have to start a war. You may disagree with war, but to accuse Bush of doing it merely for personal financial gain makes you a loon, and out of touch with reality.

How many companies can do what Halliburton does? How many of them are US companies?

Put your tin foil hat on, these next 2 weeks are going to be bumpy! [/b][/quote]
Mike,

I have 'fallen' for nothing, least of all Moore's little movie. Hard to fall for something one hasn't seen Mr. Assumption. You did what I expected, called me names rather than answer any of my questions. LMK when you grow up Mike and can form an adult response to valid question.

[PornoDoggy]

As far as the tripe contained in the original article ... I don't believe that turning out the incompetent incumbent is in any way, shape or form a retreat from the values of the greatest generation - the generation, btw, who fought to build the U.N. That puff-piece is nothing more than another attempt to wrap Bush up in the flag.

Mike, I don't doubt that Bush regarding the invasion of Iraq as in the interests of the United States. He was still wrong IN THE WAY HE WENT ABOUT IT. How many French and Russian (and maybe even German) troops could we have on the ground right now IF WE'D BEEN WILLING TO SHARE SOME OF THE $ WE GAVE HALIBURTON? What kind of message does making your first target in Baghdad the oil ministry send?

Electing John Kerry is not going to "end a message to the terrorists" in any way, shape, or form. They don't fucking care. I, for one, would rather elect a leader who will be more responsible in the fights he picks and the way he fights them. I could be disappointed by Kerry - but I know that Bush has proven his incompetence.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by XXXPhoto+Oct 22 2004, 06:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (XXXPhoto @ Oct 22 2004, 06:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Mike AI@Oct 22 2004, 01:38 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-XXXPhoto@Oct 22 2004, 04:13 PM
Yes it does Mike... Unfortunately Bush is not the nobel leader this essay paints him to be...

"Duty, honor and sacrifice"? Tell me when he did his 'duty' and looked out for something other than his own interests... Where is the honor in relaxing environmental safeguards via exectutive orders? What sacrifice is there in going to war for your carpetbagging corporate commrades?


You have fallen for all the Moore propaganda....

Politicians have millions of ways to make money while in office, they do not have to start a war. You may disagree with war, but to accuse Bush of doing it merely for personal financial gain makes you a loon, and out of touch with reality.

How many companies can do what Halliburton does? How many of them are US companies?

Put your tin foil hat on, these next 2 weeks are going to be bumpy!
Mike,

I have 'fallen' for nothing, least of all Moore's little movie. Hard to fall for something one hasn't seen Mr. Assumption. You did what I expected, called me names rather than answer any of my questions. LMK when you grow up Mike and can form an adult response to valid question. [/b][/quote]


There is a whole fringe group who beleives the things you do, Moore just happens to be the most famous advocate of that posistion. It does not matter if you saw the movie or not. You are still a victem of propganda.

PD - it is good to see you do not question Bush's heart. There is no doubt he made a lot of mistakes, but I do not think Kerry could do better.

[PornoDoggy]

Mike, aren't you the guy who once posted that you think liberalism is a foreign idealoogy?

You accusing someone of being on the fringe is about like Grogan and brandon calling each other immature.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Oct 22 2004, 07:26 PM
Mike, aren't you the guy who once posted that you think liberalism is a foreign idealoogy?

You accusing someone of being on the fringe is about like Grogan and brandon calling each other immature.


What do you mean by foreign ideology?

PD so you beleive people who claim Bush went to war in Iraq to make money for himself and his cronies are within the mainstream? Or is it the whole "L"abel thing you liberals don't like?

[XXXPhoto]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Oct 22 2004, 04:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Oct 22 2004, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by XXXPhoto@Oct 22 2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Oct 22 2004, 01:38 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-XXXPhoto@Oct 22 2004, 04:13 PM
Yes it does Mike... Unfortunately Bush is not the nobel leader this essay paints him to be...

"Duty, honor and sacrifice"? Tell me when he did his 'duty' and looked out for something other than his own interests... Where is the honor in relaxing environmental safeguards via exectutive orders? What sacrifice is there in going to war for your carpetbagging corporate commrades?


You have fallen for all the Moore propaganda....

Politicians have millions of ways to make money while in office, they do not have to start a war. You may disagree with war, but to accuse Bush of doing it merely for personal financial gain makes you a loon, and out of touch with reality.

How many companies can do what Halliburton does? How many of them are US companies?

Put your tin foil hat on, these next 2 weeks are going to be bumpy!
Mike,

I have 'fallen' for nothing, least of all Moore's little movie. Hard to fall for something one hasn't seen Mr. Assumption. You did what I expected, called me names rather than answer any of my questions. LMK when you grow up Mike and can form an adult response to valid question.


There is a whole fringe group who beleives the things you do, Moore just happens to be the most famous advocate of that posistion. It does not matter if you saw the movie or not. You are still a victem of propganda.

PD - it is good to see you do not question Bush's heart. There is no doubt he made a lot of mistakes, but I do not think Kerry could do better. [/b][/quote]
Mike,

Wake up young man, we are all 'victims' of propaganda... If you think you are immune to it's effects then you are proving again the depths of your self delusion and how firmly the republican root's grip is on your critical thinking faculties.

Since when are my views 'fringe' Mike? Have you ever read any of Bush's executive orders regarding the environment? You can start here: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/orders/

Go through and read all the ones that were put out on Fridays, will save time. Straight from the horses mouth (or ass depending on your views).

I've read through these Mike, have you?

Will tell you in advance if you ain't going to take the time to read over the evidence then your resulting opinions are invalid guesswork akin to kid holding hands over ears singing la la la la I can't hear you la la la la

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Oct 22 2004, 07:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Oct 22 2004, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-PornoDoggy@Oct 22 2004, 07:26 PM
Mike, aren't you the guy who once posted that you think liberalism is a foreign idealoogy?

You accusing someone of being on the fringe is about like Grogan and brandon calling each other immature.


What do you mean by foreign ideology?

PD so you beleive people who claim Bush went to war in Iraq to make money for himself and his cronies are within the mainstream? Or is it the whole "L"abel thing you liberals don't like? [/b][/quote]


What does this have to do with you claiming Iraq war was started for Bush to make money?? Let's stick to the topic here.

Oh and I agree about propaganda.... It is a battle we have to fight everyday.

[Dravyk]

I'm sure the terrorists would see a military veteran with declarations as weaker than a Daddy's boy who bought his way out of fighting. Yeah, right. Makes total sense. Not.

The ad Vick posted says it all. Why people are all fired up to vote FOR those who want to kill their bread and butter is beyond me. (And yes, even if you are diversified, even part of your bread and butter is still too much!)

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Dravyk@Oct 22 2004, 08:09 PM
I'm sure the terrorists would see a military veteran with declarations as weaker than a Daddy's boy who bought his way out of fighting. Yeah, right. Makes total sense. Not.

The ad Vick posted says it all. Why people are all fired up to vote FOR those who want to kill their bread and butter is beyond me. (And yes, even if you are diversified, even part of your bread and butter is still too much!)


HAHAHAHAHA

Thanks for the good laugh Drav!!

[Dravyk]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Oct 22 2004, 10:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Oct 22 2004, 10:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Dravyk@Oct 22 2004, 08:09 PM
I'm sure the terrorists would see a military veteran with declarations as weaker than a Daddy's boy who bought his way out of fighting. Yeah, right. Makes total sense. Not.

The ad Vick posted says it all. Why people are all fired up to vote FOR those who want to kill their bread and butter is beyond me. (And yes, even if you are diversified, even part of your bread and butter is still too much!)


HAHAHAHAHA

Thanks for the good laugh Drav!! [/b][/quote]
Likewise, Mike! :rolleyes:

[Grump]

Posted by MikeAI: "I think this pretty much sums it up."

How can one man's opinion sum up anything this serious? Are you saying that the other side has nothing of value to say?

Take off the blinders please.

These are not simple problems and the only thing accomplished by labeling everyone who disagrees with you is to illuminate a startling lack of knowledge.

I thought this tactic ended once we left elementary school but I see several here as well as many others using this in arguments. Got no facts, then label them somehow with some disparraging remark.

C'mon Mike, there are 2 sides here and if you truly want to have a conversation respond to the other side with thoughts and ideas.

I thought you were smarter.

[Biggy]

Forget IRAQ for a second....

Are you aware of the crackdown in the adult industry to come should he be re-elected. I've heard they have large companies now that are facing a grand jury down in some very conservative areas...

The only reason the crackdown did not come during this administration was 9/11 (speculation on my end). The taskforce to fight child porn is also tied in to obscenity now. So forget IRAQ for a second, think about your business.... and if Bush does get re-elected, and you find yourself fighting an obscenity crime sometime during the next 4 years, are you still going to be happy you voted for Bush?