View Full Version : We are at war! This is why we are fighting.
Mike AI
09-11-2004, 03:29 AM
I know its old, but we need to stay focused on why we are fighting.
I doubt many networks show the actual planes crashing into the WTC
http://www.gunstuff.com/america-attacked.html
Mike AI
09-11-2004, 03:30 AM
SEPTEMBER 11 REMEMBERED
September 11, 2001 wasn't the beginning of this war. In fact, fundamentalist Islamists had been making war on the United States for years, with the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole, the attacks on our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993 (which was intended to topple both towers, but failed), all the way back, in some sense, to the seizure of the U.S. embassy in Tehran back when Jimmy Carter was president. For all those years, they were at war with us, but we largely ignored it.
But September 11, 2001 was when we woke up, and realized what was going on. When people talk about the 1,000th casualty in Iraq, it's worth remembering that we had 3,000 casualties in a single day, in America, and that terrorists want to do much, much worse.
It's a war. Reasonable people can argue about how to go about waging it. But -- as someone who thinks that when you're at war, the war is the thing that matters most -- what bothers me about John Kerry is that he doesn't really seem to think we're at war at all. He's said a lot more about his four months waging war in Vietnam than he's said about how he'd spend four years waging war with people who want nothing more than to kill Americans in large numbers. That's my big problem with Kerry, and judging by the polls it's a problem that a lot of other people have, too.
J. Scott Applewhite / AP
Kristen Breitweiser, right, whose husband Ron died in the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks at the World Trade Center, joins Mary Fetchet of New Canaan, Conn., who lost her son Brad in the Sept. 11, 2001 attack on the World Trade Center, Stephen Push of Washington, who heads Families of September 11, and whose wife died on American Airlines Flight 77.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whenever people point this out, the Kerry campaign charges them with "politicizing" 9/11. I don't think so. I think it's a matter of priorities, not politicization. But if that's what it is, so be it. Better to politicize it, than to ignore it, or forget it. Or, as some people even want us to, lose it.
Here's what Lee Harris wrote, in his book Civilization And Its Enemies:
Forgetfulness occurs when those who have been long inured to civilized order can no longer remember a time in which they had to wonder whether their crops would grow to maturity without being stolen or their children sold into slavery by a victorious foe.
...
They forget that in time of danger, in the face of the Enemy, they must trust and confide in each other, or perish.
They forget, in short, that there has ever been a category of human experience called the Enemy. And that, before 9/11, was what had happened to us. The very concept of the Enemy had been banished from our moral and political vocabulary. An enemy was just a friend we hadn't done enough for -- yet. Or perhaps there had been a misunderstanding, or an oversight on our part -- something that we could correct. And this means that that our first task is that we must try to grasp what the concept of the Enemy really means.
The Enemy is someone who is willing to die in order to kill you. And while it is true that the Enemy always hates us for a reason -- it is his reason, and not ours.
Too many people have forgotten that. Or worse, they've decided that the real enemy is George W. Bush, even to the point of desecrating 9/11 memorials with anti-Bush slogans.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3395977/
Mike ... the anniversary of 9/11 appears to have made you more angry and eager to fight, but I feel increasingly the opposite ...
sometimes its more important to stop and realize that human life is more valuable than political business.
i'm just getting so tired of politics, and fighting, and guns, and 'he started it mummy' while more people get killed for us to get more angry about and kill more people in retaliation.
everything you copy/pasted supports good guys and bad guys theory ... 'we' never did anything but take care of 'them' and 'they' just bombed us with aeroplanes out of nowhere for no reason!
The Enemy is someone who is willing to die in order to kill you. And while it is true that the Enemy always hates us for a reason -- it is his reason, and not ours.
turn this around ... its equally accurate when applied to 'us' from 'their' perspective, only they are the ones with flattened cities.
Menace
09-11-2004, 07:08 AM
Nice CJ! B)
The world is full of bad guys trying to portray themselves as good guys.
War is the way of ignorant people who are steeped in traditions that don't work.
War over there, up there, in here, on our own streets.
Small minded, easily threatened people pointing fingers and making other people wrong is no way to create peace. (I'm NOT talking about you Michael - I mean in general)
Hey Iraqi, hey fatso, hey smoker, hey person of a different color or religion or sexual preference, fan of a different sports team or any other nonsense manufactured reason DIE because I'm not willing to accept you because that's what my forefathers did.
War can't happen if people stay in their own yards and mind their own damn business. It's rediculous to search for who wronged who first and when, our history doesn't keep the kind of records necessary to go back far enough to make this practice valid.
With society creating more laws to make more people wrong, it's very likely that things will get way worse before the world wakes up and does the right thing to make things better.
Honor the dead from 9/11, honor the dead in Iraq, but don't forget to honor us, the living too. :salute: :rokk:
RawAlex
09-11-2004, 11:39 AM
No matter how hard they try to bleach they black hats, they are never white, just ugly shades of grey.
Mike, the canadian networks show the planes going into the buildings. We are not shy of the truth. All the truth.
Alex
You do not always pick your own battles, however you do pick how to fight them. That is why even democracies have armies ready to go to war.
How to fight a war is never a good vs. bad situation - war is always a balance between two evils - destruction and sacrifice - and the more you fight, the more destruction and sacrifice you will be willing to accept. So war is evil - war is a downward spiral for modern civilization, but again we do not always pick our own battles - only how to fight them.
OldJeff
09-11-2004, 12:36 PM
If that is the reason we are fighting, then why are we in Iraq which had nothing to do with it.
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02
The only thing 9-11 means to this asshole is one more thing to exploit to gather votes for re election.
Fucking Disgrace the way he is shitting on the memory of those that died.
I agree that the Iraq war has little to do with the reason behind the 9/11 attack (ofcourse the terrorist did use the situation in Iraq and others places to justify their actions), however 9/11 did cause a new US military doctrine change from the Clinton "reaction" to Bush "preemption", since you can not fight terrorists by waiting for them to strike first, and then do a "reaction". So, if 9/11 had never happende, then Bush had not had a reason to change the US military doctrine, and the war in Iraq would had to be sold on only the "reaction" doctrine (ex. Saddam did not follow the UN resolutions etc.).
Now was Iraq a mistake? I do not think so - if Saddam had been in power today, then Osama would still be able to use the UN sanctions against Iraq as a reason to hate the US - Saddam would probably also be trying to use the weak US policy to damage the US intrests (ex. expanding the idea on petro-euros instead of petro-dollars) etc. but I´m guessing, and so do everyone who think that Iraq was a mistake - no one knows what would have happende, its more constructive to look at the future...
The same goes for Osama.. we can blame Bush for not getting Osama, but it doesn´t change the situation about Osama today... we need to know which President is most likely to do the things we want in the future (and here is my problem with Kerry - his visions for the future are drowning in the "anti bush" rhetoric).
Mike AI
09-11-2004, 01:25 PM
Lets all gather around and sing kumba-ya.
I am sure our enemies will join us, and then we can make some herbal tea, and
discuss our issues out!
:headwall:
Menace
09-11-2004, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 11 2004, 12:26 PM
Lets all gather around and sing kumba-ya.
I am sure our enemies will join us, and then we can make some herbal tea, and
discuss our issues out!
:headwall:
:biglaugh: LOL!
I hope within your lifetime you can see the humor in the narrow view you learned by eagerly watching politicians jerk each other off and the media that's more than generous regurgitating any twisted lie you're willing to accept as gospel.
If you sincerely believe that the answer to stupidity and murdering innocent people is MORE stupidity and murdering innocent people, I pity you.
Remember the quote, "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"? Our country has learned the names and dates, but not the lessons. Look beyond what your shown and you may someday be introduced to a life that's richer than the fear, hatred, anger and prejudice you currently live thanks to the "no spin" brand of reality you're apparently subscribing to.
Maybe if enough people you love are killed due to the poor decisions of our leaders you'll choose to think more independently and stop blindly following those who aren't bright enough to lead you in the first place. Hopefully, it won't come to something so drastic for you to realize there are other options than repulican or democrat, bombs or flowers, and black or white.
You thought outside the box enough to choose porn as a venue to make money and you've been successful with it. Imagine the freedom you'd experience on a personal level if you applied the same quality of thinking to your life and the world you live in.
"kumbaya" and love to you sweetheart,
-Dennis :gbounce:
Mike AI
09-11-2004, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Menace+Sep 11 2004, 02:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Menace @ Sep 11 2004, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mike AI@Sep 11 2004, 12:26 PM
Lets all gather around and sing kumba-ya.
I am sure our enemies will join us, and then we can make some herbal tea, and
discuss our issues out!
:headwall:
:biglaugh: LOL!
I hope within your lifetime you can see the humor in the narrow view you learned by eagerly watching politicians jerk each other off and the media that's more than generous regurgitating any twisted lie you're willing to accept as gospel.
If you sincerely believe that the answer to stupidity and murdering innocent people is MORE stupidity and murdering innocent people, I pity you.
Remember the quote, "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"? Our country has learned the names and dates, but not the lessons. Look beyond what your shown and you may someday be introduced to a life that's richer than the fear, hatred, anger and prejudice you currently live thanks to the "no spin" brand of reality you're apparently subscribing to.
Maybe if enough people you love are killed due to the poor decisions of our leaders you'll choose to think more independently and stop blindly following those who aren't bright enough to lead you in the first place. Hopefully, it won't come to something so drastic for you to realize there are other options than repulican or democrat, bombs or flowers, and black or white.
You thought outside the box enough to choose porn as a venue to make money and you've been successful with it. Imagine the freedom you'd experience on a personal level if you applied the same quality of thinking to your life and the world you live in.
"kumbaya" and love to you sweetheart,
-Dennis :gbounce: [/b][/quote]
I hope in your lifetime you don't have your family, friends blown to bits by a group of people who want to slaughter us all.
I do not need Bush, Clinton, Kerry or anyone else to tell me who the bad guys are. It is pretty fucking obvious - its the people slaughtering innocent children in Russia, ramming planes into twin towers, killing tourists in Bali....
Menace
09-11-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI+Sep 11 2004, 02:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Sep 11 2004, 02:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Menace@Sep 11 2004, 02:07 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Mike AI@Sep 11 2004, 12:26 PM
Lets all gather around and sing kumba-ya.
I am sure our enemies will join us, and then we can make some herbal tea, and
discuss our issues out!
:headwall:
:biglaugh: LOL!
I hope within your lifetime you can see the humor in the narrow view you learned by eagerly watching politicians jerk each other off and the media that's more than generous regurgitating any twisted lie you're willing to accept as gospel.
If you sincerely believe that the answer to stupidity and murdering innocent people is MORE stupidity and murdering innocent people, I pity you.
Remember the quote, "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"? Our country has learned the names and dates, but not the lessons. Look beyond what your shown and you may someday be introduced to a life that's richer than the fear, hatred, anger and prejudice you currently live thanks to the "no spin" brand of reality you're apparently subscribing to.
Maybe if enough people you love are killed due to the poor decisions of our leaders you'll choose to think more independently and stop blindly following those who aren't bright enough to lead you in the first place. Hopefully, it won't come to something so drastic for you to realize there are other options than repulican or democrat, bombs or flowers, and black or white.
You thought outside the box enough to choose porn as a venue to make money and you've been successful with it. Imagine the freedom you'd experience on a personal level if you applied the same quality of thinking to your life and the world you live in.
"kumbaya" and love to you sweetheart,
-Dennis :gbounce:
I hope in your lifetime you don't have your family, friends blown to bits by a group of people who want to slaughter us all.
I do not need Bush, Clinton, Kerry or anyone else to tell me who the bad guys are. It is pretty fucking obvious - its the people slaughtering innocent children in Russia, ramming planes into twin towers, killing tourists in Bali.... [/b][/quote]
If it was "pretty fucking obvious" you would have included the other side of the coin which is the leaders of THIS country.
Quick question Mike...
Bloods or Crips?
Which side is right?
Everyone THINKS they have their reasons for doing whatever to whomever..
WE say that attacking us is bullshit and THEY attacked us first. THEY say, our military was there (like they are in many parts of the world) before they attacked us. Then WE say, then THEY say and then everybody gets their panties in a bunch and we all blow each other to shit.
The point?
At the end of the day who did what first doesn't matter. All that matters is what we're doing right now.
THINK about it. The WHITE man made the black man a slave, and the white man was obviously wrong - going by the "good guy bad guy" logic, any man with darker skin than you should have the right to destroy you or I right this second. THAT doesn't sound too cool or right, does it?
Fighting is like jerking off into a cup. It serves no useful purpose other than to waste resources and destroy life.
(goddamn.. that's a pearl) :D
There can't be a true "wrong" side if everybody is doing the same stupid shit. And we'll ALL be doing the same stupid shit forever unless there is CHANGE (meaning doing DIFFERENT things).
Fighting back and forth is NOT different. It's not even close.
Originally posted by Menace@Sep 11 2004, 12:00 PM
Fighting is like jerking off into a cup. It serves no useful purpose other than to waste resources and destroy life.
(goddamn.. that's a pearl) :D
of course fighting serves an usefull purpose. we kill for many reasons. safety, security, more food, more money, more resources, pre-emptively eliminate threats etc etc. in your utopian tree fort in the sky in the magic redwood, fighting serves no purpose. in the real world, fighting exists for a reason in every species of animal.
Menace
09-11-2004, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by JR+Sep 11 2004, 03:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JR @ Sep 11 2004, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Menace@Sep 11 2004, 12:00 PM
Fighting is like jerking off into a cup. It serves no useful purpose other than to waste resources and destroy life.
(goddamn.. that's a pearl) :D
of course fighting serves an usefull purpose. we kill for many reasons. safety, security, more food, more money, more resources, pre-emptively eliminate threats etc etc. in your utopian tree fort in the sky in the magic redwood, fighting serves no purpose. in the real world, fighting exists for a reason in every species of animal. [/b][/quote]
Safety and security are defensive measures, not offensive.
Pre means before, doesn't it? How can you eliminate a threat that doesn't already exist? Killing innocent children in hopes there's a "terrorist" in the group?
Killing for more food, money and resources? Look at the stomachs of the next 100 Americans you pass.. The last thing we need is MORE food, money and resources. What we need is the wisdom to more wisely use the food, money and resources we have.
I don't pretend to be perfect or see a perfect world. I'm not a hippy, liberal or any other pansy-meaning label you care to try and push on me.. All I'm saying is people should support thinking more than they support slaughtering innocent people.
How many terrorists have we "fixed" or killed? Now how many kids and women have we killed?
MORE than enough.. dontcha think?
PornoDoggy
09-11-2004, 05:08 PM
I believe that the most appropriate way to negotiate with terrorists is to use a weapon big enough to kill as many of them as possible with the least amount of collateral damage. I don't have any problem whatsoever with the United States going anywhere in the world to eliminate the very real threat that Islamic terrorists represent.
I'm quite sure that opening up new territories for them to operate in is hardly in our interests, however.
I have a problem with ignorant people who think like Usama bin Laden - in other words, I have a problem with those who wish to turn this into a war with Islam.
Yeah, yeah, yeah ... bin Laden and those like-minded use a bastardized form of Islam as the justification for their politics. A 30-second search on google will turn up any number of hate groups that use a bastardized form of any number of religions as the justification for their hate (the "Christian [sic] Identity" morons leap to mind immediately, but there are many, many others).
I think the idea that we can just somehow "stop fighting" and the other guy will stop is almost as niave as those who advocate politics and tactics identical to those that have failed for almost the entire 20th century and expect a victory. The net result of both forms of fancy is more death.
Islamic fundamentalism in this era is a logical progression from the Pan-Arab movements that sprung up in the post-colonial era, and for much the same reasons - a legacy of centuries of political and economic exploitation. Failure to address the underlying attraction of Islamic fundamentalism while undertaking military action to defend ourselves from the very real threat will cause an escalation of the conflict, and not make us any safer.
Mike AI
09-11-2004, 06:10 PM
For the record, I am for a multiprong approach. Military efforts can only slow down the problem. Until the middle east becomes a place where the average person has hope, liberty, something to live for - this scourge will continue.
The West is hampered by thousands of years of liberalization....
2000 years ago we would have laid waste to the whole region, salted the fields and moved on. Ahhhhh the good ol' days!
sarettah
09-11-2004, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 11 2004, 12:26 PM
Lets all gather around and sing kumba-ya.
:okthumb: Like Joanie would want us too :okthumb:
gonzo
09-11-2004, 07:07 PM
I normally keep my nose out of political threads. Today I have only this to say ....along with many of us from the South.
"Hell No we aint forgettin!!!'"
JoesHO
09-11-2004, 10:06 PM
:salute: sigh....
:headwall:
Winetalk.com
09-12-2004, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 11 2004, 12:26 PM
Lets all gather around and sing kumba-ya.
I am sure our enemies will join us, and then we can make some herbal tea, and
discuss our issues out!
:headwall:
MikeAI, I can only quote Dr. Evil after reading your opponents:
"I'm surrounded by freaking idiots!"
;-))))
Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 10 2004, 11:30 PM
I know its old, but we need to stay focused on why we are fighting.
I doubt many networks show the actual planes crashing into the WTC
http://www.gunstuff.com/america-attacked.html
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0003/most.wanted.gallery/laden.fbi.jpg
Um...Wasn't this guy the one caused the 9/11 fiasco? You all still seemed to have forgotten about him...
Don't worry - the evil doers that killed 1000's of US citizens are still at large, but we caught our former ally Saddam. You're safe now.
Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 11 2004, 12:26 PM
Lets all gather around and sing kumba-ya.
I am sure our enemies will join us, and then we can make some herbal tea, and
discuss our issues out!
:headwall:
I'll put the kettle on ....... chamomile or jasmine pearl?
the question is, will you sit down at the table, or keep chasing your tale until 1 day you really do lose someone you love to an 'act of retaliation'?
I hope in your lifetime you don't have your family, friends blown to bits by a group of people who want to slaughter us all.
ya mean, like 'we' did to 'them'? Tell me Mike ... what exactly have YOU PERSONALLY lost lately at the hands of terrorists? How many of your family and friends have been 'slaughtered' by terrorists? Is your huge house and garage full of expensive cars still standing? Are there big holes in the ground on your acres of perfectly manicured lawn? Do you know where your mother, sisters, cousins, wife is?
All of your political statements come from your incorrect believe that 'our' way is right and 'their' way is wrong. That attitude is what should be bombed, not cities where innocent people live that just happens to be the country where SOME of our enemies reside.
If I were 'them', I'd hate us too. We are selfish greedy cunts ... but what's worse, is that we've made up a 'threat' so we feel justified in taking even more from those who hardly had anything to start with.
Yeah, we rock. :bjump:
Originally posted by Menace+Sep 11 2004, 12:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Menace @ Sep 11 2004, 12:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by JR@Sep 11 2004, 03:33 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Menace@Sep 11 2004, 12:00 PM
Fighting is like jerking off into a cup. It serves no useful purpose other than to waste resources and destroy life.
(goddamn.. that's a pearl) :D
of course fighting serves an usefull purpose. we kill for many reasons. safety, security, more food, more money, more resources, pre-emptively eliminate threats etc etc. in your utopian tree fort in the sky in the magic redwood, fighting serves no purpose. in the real world, fighting exists for a reason in every species of animal.
Safety and security are defensive measures, not offensive.
Pre means before, doesn't it? How can you eliminate a threat that doesn't already exist? Killing innocent children in hopes there's a "terrorist" in the group?
Killing for more food, money and resources? Look at the stomachs of the next 100 Americans you pass.. The last thing we need is MORE food, money and resources. What we need is the wisdom to more wisely use the food, money and resources we have.
I don't pretend to be perfect or see a perfect world. I'm not a hippy, liberal or any other pansy-meaning label you care to try and push on me.. All I'm saying is people should support thinking more than they support slaughtering innocent people.
How many terrorists have we "fixed" or killed? Now how many kids and women have we killed?
MORE than enough.. dontcha think? [/b][/quote]
i think you are missing my point. my point was simple.. that fighting does serve a purpose and has since the dawn of time. death and destruction are an essential and necessary part of life and it is through this chaos that nature fulfills its plan of building life. you think you can change human nature and the forces that are beyond you by passing out a few hugs and fruit baskets... but i can prove to you through countless examples, countless wars and 100's of millions of people butchered that you are wrong. you are one of the many misguided souls that thinks that we can all just get along. i got news for you skippy... we can't. we never have. we never will.
"war is the natuaral state of man"
never have, never will?!?!? you were around at the dawn of time then JR? :rolleyes: I'll bet the dawn of time was peaceful and beautiful, until 1 man realized another man's dick was bigger than his, chopped it off, then put on a fig leaf to hide his own small penis from the other men!!! EGO!
comparing men blowing each other up over a complex web of political/religious beliefs with animals who kill PURELY for survival is a bit of a reach JR.
When did you last see a lion rounding up his troops to go take over another lions den?!?!
We aren't doing what we are doing for survival, no matter how much we convince ourselves otherwise.
never have, never will?!?!? you were around at the dawn of time then JR? :rolleyes: I'll bet the dawn of time was peaceful and beautiful, until 1 man realized another man's dick was bigger than his, chopped it off, then put on a fig leaf to hide his own small penis from the other men!!! EGO!
this is typically female view of the world.
the dawn of time was peacefull right up until people had to compete with each other to survive. the only purpose women served at that point was to breed more warriors to protect them and insure their own continued survival.
When did you last see a lion rounding up his troops to go take over another lions den?!?!
and you think i am reaching??? EVERY predator attacks other predators to capture/defend territory, food and water and more females for breeding. lions fiercely defend their terrority. how do you think they do it? by arm wrestling? they are victem of the very same basic impulse that drives humans. they are driven by the same basic program inside us all that tells us that what we have might not be enough, so we should go out and get more while defending to the death, what we have. even lovable chimpanzees are brutal killers.
We aren't doing what we are doing for survival, no matter how much we convince ourselves otherwise.
the "why's" are always debatable. but a simple fact is that when any organism is attacked, it defends itself. it makes no difference what logic you use to justify the attack or where your logic allows you to place the blame.
comparing men blowing each other up over a complex web of political/religious beliefs with animals who kill PURELY for survival is a bit of a reach JR.
what seperates us from animals is solely our ability to convince ourselves that we are not animals.
XXXPhoto
09-12-2004, 05:41 AM
The difference between animals and humans is none of them are killing each other off cause they pray to different invisible dudes...
Almighty Colin
09-12-2004, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by cj@Sep 12 2004, 01:58 AM
When did you last see a lion rounding up his troops to go take over another lions den?!?!
Lions do kill each other in territorial disputes. They don't "round up the troops" but they lack the social structures that you see in primates. Of course, they have social structures but they are quite different in kind and size and they lack the kind of complex communication that would be needed for such organization.
Our closest relative, the chimpanzee, is a completely different story though. In the 70s, Jane Goodall documented a chimpanzee troop ambushing and killing a chimpanzee from another troop. This behavior has been documented more extensively since. I've seen an aerial view video taken with an infrared cam of a group of chimps coordinating such an ambush. Enter another chimps territory and risk being beaten to death. They do murder each other and it is organized. They are highly social and can communicate coordinated complex plans to each other.
There are plenty of human bones from the neolithic period with arrows in them. There are hundreds of paleolithic era bones with stone points in them - likely from spears. Some of them have more than a dozen injuries from sharp objects that didn't heal. D.O.A. There are cave drawings which depict human on human violence. Even earlier, there are Neanderthal skulls which many think were the result of murder/battles.
I think the answer is simple. It doesn't matter whether such behavior is for survival or not. What matters is that the more violent social groups were more likely to survive and perpetuate their social systems and maybe even their genes. Pacifists perished.
Mike AI
09-12-2004, 10:44 AM
:headwall:
Evil Chris
09-12-2004, 11:12 AM
I'm waiting for another "We got 'im" announcement from Washington.
Should be any day now.
Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 12 2004, 09:45 AM
:headwall:
funny, that's exactly what I was thinking :rolleyes:
So JR, we are attacking iraq because we want their food and their women???!?
silly me, here I was thinking we were looking for bin laden or terrorists or something :rolleyes:
the difference between the battles of animals and humans is that we lie, scheme and manipulate through politics and propaganda to obtain power and control.
the dawn of time was peacefull right up until people had to compete with each other to survive. the only purpose women served at that point was to breed more warriors to protect them and insure their own continued survival.
Looks like women have progressed a fair way doesn't it? Why are men still the same?
ya'all just keep killing each other off - just make sure you freeze some sperm before you make yourselves extinct :okthumb:
I hope you continue to enjoy the fighting, especially when it really starts to effect YOU!
PornoDoggy
09-12-2004, 11:00 PM
I have a problem with Mike's initial premise - that somehow the war in Iraq is related to the terrorism committed on 9/11.
I realize that you often say that - but you are just as likely to say that the war in Iraq is about oil now that the primary initial justification is, as Nixon's folks used to say, "inoperative." 9/11 is only one of many justifications that have been offered for the Iraqi escapade, depending upon who is speaking, to whom they are speaking, and (perhaps) the day of the week - there are more than enough justifications for it to cover a couple of weeks, actually.
Almighty Colin
09-13-2004, 06:08 AM
You take the good, you take the bad
you take them both and there you have
The Facts of Life
Almighty Colin
09-13-2004, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by cj@Sep 12 2004, 05:34 PM
Looks like women have progressed a fair way doesn't it? Why are men still the same?
ya'all just keep killing each other off - just make sure you freeze some sperm before you make yourselves extinct :okthumb
CJ, please explain.
In the US, there is a shrinking gap between men and women in support for wars - at least if Vietnam, the Persian Gulf War and the Iraq War are used as benchmarks. If you're talking about fighting wars, I'm pretty sure there are more women in combat than at any other time in history.
ivil_klown
09-13-2004, 11:09 AM
I'm really sorry for the children caught in the war, it's sad that they had to be dragged into this. :(
RawAlex
09-13-2004, 11:24 AM
PD: 9/11 and Iraq are related because Bush says so.
Were you not paying attention? Did you not get your glass of the kool-aid?
Smarten up, man!
:lol: :lol:
Alex
PornoDoggy
09-13-2004, 12:44 PM
Colin ... would be interested in what you are basing your assertion that American women are "more supportive" of war today.
Using Vietnam as some sort of benchmark in comparisson to the Iraqi escapades seems very problematic to me. I doubt very seriously that there is a significant differnece in the levels of support for Vietnam (by gender or otherwise) before 1968 compared to the battle to liberate Kuwait or the war of occupation in Iraq.
dantheman
09-13-2004, 12:53 PM
well mike, as soon as Kerry is in office he'll take care of these BAD people, he'll talk to them, he'll get the UN to talk to them, he'll get the french to talk to them, he'll get the germans to talk to them. and after all these great people do al this tallking then the bad guys will blow up something and we'll start all over again.
:headwall:
Almighty Colin
09-13-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Sep 13 2004, 11:45 AM
Colin ... would be interested in what you are basing your assertion that American women are "more supportive" of war today.
Using Vietnam as some sort of benchmark in comparisson to the Iraqi escapades seems very problematic to me. I doubt very seriously that there is a significant differnece in the levels of support for Vietnam (by gender or otherwise) before 1968 compared to the battle to liberate Kuwait or the war of occupation in Iraq.
I see your point.
After further review it really matters when you take the snapshot and pretty impossible to really compare. If you look at the polls in the aftermath in the months after 9/11 the support for military action amongst women was much higher than the normal difference. Also true at the beginning of the Iraq war but not later.
But back to CJ's assertion, in what way are women "progressing" on this subject? Seems to be a wash at minimum.
Some random findings which pretty much lead to "no conclusion" ...
"Men and women are about equally likely to support military retaliation for the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. This is a different pattern from what has been the case historically, when men have been more likely than women to favor military action." – Gallup
http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=4963
“Over the past four decades, Gallup polling has shown that men generally favor military action more than women do. In the case of a possible war with Iraq, this gender gap has varied considerably, and is now at a modest five percentage points.” – Gallup
http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/login.aspx?ci=7243
“NEW YORK — Conventional wisdom would have women leaning a little pacifist when it comes to armed conflict, but the war on terror is shattering that stereotype. Recent polls are showing American women are more supportive now than in any other conflict in modern history. Unlike in earlier conflicts, when polling showed far more men than women in favor of war, 87 percent of women and 88 percent of men in a recent Fox News/Opinion Dynamics poll said they support President Bush's war on terror. Only 73 percent of men and 59 percent of women told Gallup pollsters they supported the war in Vietnam during its early day” http://www.warroom.com/womenrally.htm
“A Gallup poll taken one week before the first Persian Gulf War began showed that 67 percent of men but only 45 percent of women supported a military attack against Iraq.”
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0227-07.htm
“Seventy-eight percent of men favor the war, compared with 66% of women -- a 12-percentage-point gap. Gender gaps have traditionally been evident in support for military action, although those gaps have narrowed in the post-Sept. 11 world. However, the current difference in support by gender is nearly identical to what it was at the beginning of the 1991 Persian Gulf War. Then, a 10-point gap existed, as 86% of men and 76% of women approved of the United States' decision to go to war with Iraq to drive the Iraqis out of Kuwait.”
http://www.seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Features...28GallupWar.htm (http://www.seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Features/3-03-28GallupWar.htm)
PornoDoggy
09-13-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by dantheman@Sep 13 2004, 11:54 AM
well mike, as soon as Kerry is in office he'll take care of these BAD people, he'll talk to them, he'll get the UN to talk to them, he'll get the french to talk to them, he'll get the germans to talk to them. and after all these great people do al this tallking then the bad guys will blow up something and we'll start all over again.
:headwall:
Now Dan ... I know you are smarter than that. Anyone who thinks that John Kerry is less likely to defend America than George Bush is every bit as stupid as those who think Bush caused 9/11 to happen in order to go to war in Iraq.
The costs of getting the French, the Germans, and the Russians involved in Iraq were probably negligible ... unless you are as concerned with Haliburton's bottom line as you are with the lives of American servicemen.
The bad guys are going to blow up more shit whether Kerry or Bush wins this election. Where I personally see the difference between the two candidates on this issue is how likely they are to take actions which make sense from an idealogical perspective but cause more harm in the long run.
I will say this much ... I suspect that some of Kerry's supporters will turn on him within nine months, should he win the election, because we will NOT be pulling out of Iraq as quickly as they would like. I suspect it will take longer than that to bring any assistance on board, if in fact we can overcome the fuckups of the neocons and Bushites.
Mike AI
09-13-2004, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Sep 12 2004, 10:01 PM
I have a problem with Mike's initial premise - that somehow the war in Iraq is related to the terrorism committed on 9/11.
I realize that you often say that - but you are just as likely to say that the war in Iraq is about oil now that the primary initial justification is, as Nixon's folks used to say, "inoperative." 9/11 is only one of many justifications that have been offered for the Iraqi escapade, depending upon who is speaking, to whom they are speaking, and (perhaps) the day of the week - there are more than enough justifications for it to cover a couple of weeks, actually.
I have never said that Iraq had anything to do with 9-11.
But I still supported the overthrow of Saddam. I think it still change be a watershed event in history.
PornoDoggy
09-13-2004, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 13 2004, 12:24 PM
I have never said that Iraq had anything to do with 9-11.
But I still supported the overthrow of Saddam. I think it still change be a watershed event in history.
Mike, you have repeatedly attempted to link the war in Iraq with the war on terror - a linkage that is suspect at best.
In retrospect, we should have left Hussein in power and supported him against the Saudis and Iranians. He's better at killing arab and persian muslims than we are.
funkmaster
09-13-2004, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 11 2004, 09:26 AM
Lets all gather around and sing kumba-ya.
I am sure our enemies will join us, and then we can make some herbal tea, and
discuss our issues out!
:headwall:
you are week as piss, pimpdog owend your ass at gfy.
Originally posted by XXXPhoto@Sep 12 2004, 04:42 AM
The difference between animals and humans is none of them are killing each other off cause they pray to different invisible dudes...
:pearl: :wnw:
Originally posted by funkmaster+Sep 13 2004, 12:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (funkmaster @ Sep 13 2004, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Mike AI@Sep 11 2004, 09:26 AM
Lets all gather around and sing kumba-ya.
I am sure our enemies will join us, and then we can make some herbal tea, and
discuss our issues out!
:headwall:
you are week as piss, pimpdog owend your ass at gfy.[/b][/quote]
Gee...the official message board piss scorekeeper. What's next, the "i'd hit it" tally counter? Give it time, you'll be the dweeb talking about the chick that refused your ICQ's to yer buddy while waiting in line at the store.
...and you people even wonder why I dream about the majority of humanity being ice picked through their cerebellum in that loving, caring way...only a serial killer can do.
Originally posted by Colin@Sep 13 2004, 12:03 PM
But back to CJ's assertion, in what way are women "progressing" on this subject? Seems to be a wash at minimum.
Where did I say anything about women's views on war?!
I said women have largely progressed from the point of looking after their warriors when they return home from battle, I said nothing about support of war.
Unlike in earlier conflicts, when polling showed far more men than women in favor of war, 87 percent of women and 88 percent of men in a recent Fox News/Opinion Dynamics poll said they support President Bush's war on terror. Only 73 percent of men and 59 percent of women told Gallup pollsters they supported the war in Vietnam during its early day”
Show me a TV poll (all seem to be marketed like a game) were women DON'T support almost anything more than men. Women are driven by emotion which those phone vote things rely on, and with the propaganda campaigns bush has been doing for the last few years, many of us have forgotten the destruction caused to the other side.
How quickly we all forget - I was FOR finding bin laden, I still am FOR finding bin laden. But i'm strongly AGAINST us using our position to blow up other people's homes, because we feel the need to 'show them who is boss' on totally unrelated issues.
I'm strongly against the attitude of people like Mike, who immediately respond with 'lets blow it up' the moment he feels even vaguely threatened (look at the korea thread! a bomb blew up a montain, Mike immediately wants to bomb north korea ... just in case!!). Mike is the western equivilent of an Islamic extremist, & like them, he thinks its acceptable when he acts that way. I'm embarassed for him and ashamed of him, and all those who feel they are justified in taking the lives of others so they can be the boss of the world.
It just amazes me that someone who has done so well in life can be so hateful towards people who have lived their lives with nothing but violence and destruction, and to take pleasure in causing them more destruction. I find that incredibly sad.
Why aren't you dropping bombs on your own cities where you THINK there might be terrorists? There are more threats from people living in the united states than the places we bombed in Iraq ...
But lets not let little technicalities like that get in the way of the masters plan :rolleyes:
PeerPatrick
09-13-2004, 09:19 PM
my dad used to say "kill em all, let god sort it out!" and "pave it over, turn parks into parking lots!" interesting childhood to say the least.
it's easy to forget when they fly the flag and show the buildings falling that this mess is neither a good or a just war but more of a love song to a decrepit ideology that has clouded societies minds since time past remembery.
it's exactly like ----->stepping in your own shit and then proceeding to roll around in it, all the while claiming to be clean.
they say, "free your mind" but without the stench and decay of others bad ideas, unfortunately, most folk would be left with a hollow shell, jack-o-lantern in december. :salute:
corvett
09-14-2004, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Menace+Sep 11 2004, 12:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Menace @ Sep 11 2004, 12:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Mike AI@Sep 11 2004, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Menace@Sep 11 2004, 02:07 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Mike AI@Sep 11 2004, 12:26 PM
Lets all gather around and sing kumba-ya.
I am sure our enemies will join us, and then we can make some herbal tea, and
discuss our issues out!
:headwall:
:biglaugh: LOL!
I hope within your lifetime you can see the humor in the narrow view you learned by eagerly watching politicians jerk each other off and the media that's more than generous regurgitating any twisted lie you're willing to accept as gospel.
If you sincerely believe that the answer to stupidity and murdering innocent people is MORE stupidity and murdering innocent people, I pity you.
Remember the quote, "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"? Our country has learned the names and dates, but not the lessons. Look beyond what your shown and you may someday be introduced to a life that's richer than the fear, hatred, anger and prejudice you currently live thanks to the "no spin" brand of reality you're apparently subscribing to.
Maybe if enough people you love are killed due to the poor decisions of our leaders you'll choose to think more independently and stop blindly following those who aren't bright enough to lead you in the first place. Hopefully, it won't come to something so drastic for you to realize there are other options than repulican or democrat, bombs or flowers, and black or white.
You thought outside the box enough to choose porn as a venue to make money and you've been successful with it. Imagine the freedom you'd experience on a personal level if you applied the same quality of thinking to your life and the world you live in.
"kumbaya" and love to you sweetheart,
-Dennis :gbounce:
I hope in your lifetime you don't have your family, friends blown to bits by a group of people who want to slaughter us all.
I do not need Bush, Clinton, Kerry or anyone else to tell me who the bad guys are. It is pretty fucking obvious - its the people slaughtering innocent children in Russia, ramming planes into twin towers, killing tourists in Bali....
If it was "pretty fucking obvious" you would have included the other side of the coin which is the leaders of THIS country.
Quick question Mike...
Bloods or Crips?
Which side is right?
Everyone THINKS they have their reasons for doing whatever to whomever..
WE say that attacking us is bullshit and THEY attacked us first. THEY say, our military was there (like they are in many parts of the world) before they attacked us. Then WE say, then THEY say and then everybody gets their panties in a bunch and we all blow each other to shit.
The point?
At the end of the day who did what first doesn't matter. All that matters is what we're doing right now.
THINK about it. The WHITE man made the black man a slave, and the white man was obviously wrong - going by the "good guy bad guy" logic, any man with darker skin than you should have the right to destroy you or I right this second. THAT doesn't sound too cool or right, does it?
Fighting is like jerking off into a cup. It serves no useful purpose other than to waste resources and destroy life.
(goddamn.. that's a pearl) :D
There can't be a true "wrong" side if everybody is doing the same stupid shit. And we'll ALL be doing the same stupid shit forever unless there is CHANGE (meaning doing DIFFERENT things).
Fighting back and forth is NOT different. It's not even close. [/b][/quote]
this is a very good post
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