When do TGPs evolve?

[Rolo]

After doing some intense TGP surfing on sites and boards for a whole week, then I´m sitting with a big question, which no one have been able to answer for me (it will probably not help posting this on Oprano, since most TGP owners are allergic to this board, but if no one answers, then just see this as a rant).

I saw a few ideas made by submiters, and sites owners, which included:

- DRM video clips, which would allow a surfer to watch the video for x days, if he then opens the video clip again he would be redirected to the paysite, where its located, or get a prompt.

- Video and Pics on html pages instead of direct in the browser - giving a few more chances to promote the site or product on the galleries.

- Keeping the galleries as teasers, and not as pleasers... meaning less of the really good action in the porn sets, movies were free etc.

- Getting rid of the free submits, and in return having either a universial paid submit pass between many tgps, or a low onetime or monthly submit pass to a each tgp.

- Setting a limit on the amount of new galleries on a TGP, so everyone who are posted can get some traffic for their effort/money/content/bandwidth/time.

However I also saw every single one of them getting killed by a TGP owner, with these arguments:

- The DRM setup would make surfers go elsewhere when building their porn library on their computers, because they would feel scammed, when they open the same video 3-7 days later, and got prompted.

- The videos and pics on html pages would make surfers go elsewhere when building their porn library on their computers, because it would be harder to save content, when the video is embedded, or the picture has a extra page.

- Keeping the galleries as teasers, and not as pleasers, would make surfers go elsewhere when building their porn library on their computers, because they would not fine the really good stuff like cumshots etc.

- While getting rid of the free submits, was somewhat accepted, then the idea about a low priced submit pass, that was not good, because they already had given "free" partner accounts, so those who wanted guarantee on spots should pay more? (did not really see the logic in that - free submit or free partner - they are both free?)

- And final the idea of setting a limit on the amount of new galleries, well that was also accepted, but it was not because of a business concept/idea, but because it would mess with designs on TGPs, and or cost extra to review and monitor.

Now, I really thought that the submiters and site owners had some good ideas, which would mean a better business model for everyone who want to make money on the internet, so I was suprised to see the ideas being thrown out so fast by TGP owners, without any debate, tryouts etc... do TGP owners really fear change so much, that they would rather keep a downward spiral going, then trying to change its course or atleast debate it.

Will TGP owners evolve their mindset from counter stats to bank accounts? Or prehaps I´m just missing something, and TGP owners are already the most intelligent businessmen the world has ever seen, which means no neandertal paysite owners will ever be able to make their own TGPs, which will cater to business?

Are paysites the work of neandertals or is it TGPs?

[Vick]

Rolo - you have some excellent points and ideas but .....

.... I think there's another piece to the puzzle, the why those ideas are rejected

Look at the models TGP's use to generate revenue, how it's set up and marketed and what they need to feed or maintain


and I'll be discussing my take on it in a short interview for Oprano Radio soon

[mojobill]

It should be abundently clear from the responses that you have gotten, that the TGP owner's priority is the SURFER, and NOT the webmaster/Paysite owner.

They want repeat customer's

They set rules that will restrict what a Webmaster can do to insure that the 'surfing experience' for their bookmarker's stays in tact....

They dont care IF the webmaster makes money, thats the problem of the Webmaster.....

Unfortunately, only the top few percentage of WM's can make money under the current structure..... but the remaining percentage continues to pander to the TGP's in search of the almighty hit....

The 'Business model' fits the TGP owner, and since they have the traffic, I dont see that changing in the near future...

[Vick]

fatbaby - with all due respect
I sincerely hope the TGP owner's priority is $$$$$$$$$$$

Hope the days of those who cared more about their counters than $$$$$ are long over

[Rolo]

I really also hope they are thinking in $$$$$$, and thats why I was puzzled about seeing the respons to valid ideas and suggestions (these ideas were from people who make their living of the TGP traffic, but also keep the TGPs alive with new content, if TGPs should listen to anyone in the adult industry, then it should be their submiters).

I think we have been thru the concept of TGPs, and their history, but what about their future. Do they have no ideas themself, are they just the conservatives of the adult industry, who do not want to change?

From my point of view, then it really looks like many of the TGP owners are standing still, while their "product" keeps degenerating... Paysite owners respond to degenerating income per surfer, was more upsell, xsale, etc. TGPs owners respond seams to be attract more surfers, but at some point the math does not add up, because they will run out of new surfers... at that point will they just accept the lower income, starting asking for donations from the surfers?

Like I said, maybe they have a master plan for the future, which will make them survive anything - maybe they have figured it all out, and are just waiting for whatever utopia they have in their dreams. How do they envision the future 1 year, 2 years, 3 years from now?

[mojobill]

Originally posted by Vick@Jul 17 2004, 12:34 AM
fatbaby - with all due respect
I sincerely hope the TGP owner's priority is $$$$$$$$$$$

Hope the days of those who cared more about their counters than $$$$$ are long over


Vick... LOL... sorry I was making the assumption ( ya, I know ;-) ) that $$$$ as a priority was a given on their part...

I do still think that there are a number of webmasters that DO look more at their counter's than their ROI. There are some really sitty TGPs listed daily ;-)

I really also hope they are thinking in $$$$$$, and thats why I was puzzled about seeing the respons to valid ideas and suggestions (these ideas were from people who make their living of the TGP traffic, but also keep the TGPs alive with new content, if TGPs should listen to anyone in the adult industry, then it should be their submiters).


It seems to me that TGP's always believe there will be more webmasters to supply the 'content' they need..... and so far that has proven to be true.

A TGP like the HUN only lists a SMALL fraction of submissions.... they can last months without taking ANY more submissions... LOL

[LadyMischief]

Originally posted by fatbaby+Jul 17 2004, 02:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fatbaby @ Jul 17 2004, 02:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Vick@Jul 17 2004, 12:34 AM
fatbaby - with all due respect
I sincerely hope the TGP owner's priority is $$$$$$$$$$$

Hope the days of those who cared more about their counters than $$$$$ are long over


Vick... LOL... sorry I was making the assumption ( ya, I know ;-) ) that $$$$ as a priority was a given on their part...

I do still think that there are a number of webmasters that DO look more at their counter's than their ROI. There are some really sitty TGPs listed daily ;-)

I really also hope they are thinking in $$$$$$, and thats why I was puzzled about seeing the respons to valid ideas and suggestions (these ideas were from people who make their living of the TGP traffic, but also keep the TGPs alive with new content, if TGPs should listen to anyone in the adult industry, then it should be their submiters).


It seems to me that TGP's always believe there will be more webmasters to supply the 'content' they need..... and so far that has proven to be true.

A TGP like the HUN only lists a SMALL fraction of submissions.... they can last months without taking ANY more submissions... LOL [/b][/quote]
Most of the TGPS I'm associated with wouldn't have to have new submissions for another year and they would still have fresh updates every day for that year before having to take another. Seems to me a lot of people are really out of the loop as far as where tgp is at and what direction it's taking... It's unfortunate to see, really. People get very stuck in their own ruts as far as what's working and what isn't, and webmasters close their mind to new ideas.. This industry was built on innovation, and continues to be. I see people bitch and complain about TGP every day, but it's not going away. It will change and evolve with the times, yes, but it will not go away... Better to find a way to utilize a potential resource than to discredit it simply because it's not the way one knows/wants to do things. Maybe I'll drag one of my bosses over here and they can give the TGP owner's positions.

[Rolo]

LadyMischief, I do not think anyone doubts that TGPs will be here, and we do not need a shemp thread sequel - lets focus on the future aspect of TGPs, which is much more interesting.

What I´m questioning is when TGPs are presented with good, valid, sane business innovations, then they throw them out with the only logic being that "if its good for business, then it must be bad for traffic".

Lets say I build a combo pics and movie gallery, which had the following features:

- thumbnail gallery with 6 outgoing links on the first page to multiple products
- 12 pics in close sequel of each other (no moneyshot, only teaser), watermarked with urls, and loaded on html pages, with additional ads
- 3 *12 sec movie clips in close sequel of each other (no moneyshot, only teaser) with watermarked urls, last 2 secs ending in sales text/logo, encoded in DRM - which allowed the surfer to download and play each video clip for 3 days, after 3 days he would get an ad to go to the paysite, all movies embedded on html pages, with additional ads.

Also lets just think that I wanted to buy a top gallery spot on the TGP, but I would like if the TGP did not display any "free" submissions from competitive companies having the same content as me, or prehaps just having a simliar product. Ofcourse if the competitive companies were too also buying gallery spots, then they should also be listed. Archive listing should also not be older than 30 days, since that would make it more possible that the same content is not being listed on another gallery, and it would make my new listing more valuable (the idea being less available content = more attention on the present/new content).

Now from my point of view, then a gallery like this would be good for business... tgps would get more variety in galleries, since free submitters will be forced to have unique products to ensure listings, surfers will be happy because they will have more to choose from, tgps would also be able to increase income from paid listing/submission pass, submitters will be given more chances in making the sale pitch to the surfer, and paysites will convert better because they will hold part of the content, which would not be listed as free.

Ofcouse I could be total of the chart, but I have not heard a really good argument for not making small changes to the businessmodel in the pursuit of making more money for everyone.

Any TGP owner who can tell me why, he/she would not list the gallery I described above, please let me know by giving a good argument - I´m listening, trying to understand...

[gonzo]

Nice thread

[Hell Puppy]

You guys seem to be basically trying to re-invent TGP2. Most of the elements discussed were a big part of TGP2.

Been there, done that.

On one hand, TGP2 works... You will indeed get better conversions off TGP2.

But where it fails is the numbers game. You cant draw the same crowds of bookmarkers that the more surfer friendly TGP's have with a TGP2. And make no mistake, TGP is ALL about bookmarkers.

Ultimately TGP2 quietly fails due to simple numbers. 100,000 clicks at 1:5000 is still better than 5000 clicks at 1:500. Especially in a world where the price of both bandwidth and content is decreasing.

[Rolo]

Hell Puppy, I do not agree that its TGP2 revisted. I think most of the things suggested in my post are a mix of old and new ideas, which is still true to the TGP model.

Ex. the pictures/videos on html was common in the "old" days of TGPs - reason they got rid of it was due to the cheating, now today with money/business ties between submitter/poster and tgp owner, then this should not be a concern - someone investing X amount of money in a gallery spot or in a submit pass will do this because its a business, not to make a drive by submit, never comming back.

Regarding content, then TGP owners are also complaining about the same content/layouts from sponsors being submited again and again - well most likely its the affiliates doing this, not the sponsors themself. And since TGP owners already have begun the process of removing free submits from their systems, then it would make sponsors getting more directly involved in the TGP listings with their content, which again will mean more content, and better galleries (better in the sense that sponsors know their own product, and how to market it).

DRM have been matured to a level where everyone can make use of it - especially on small movie clips with a simple usage.. movie clips on TGPs are more or less a throw away product, however those surfers who take the time to download/save the content to their hdd or revist the same movie clip again and again, will most likely be more interested in buying the full length version... heck the video might not have watermarks or anything, so he might have forgotten where he picked it up, and a small message where he can find more of it might been seen as information (I´m not saying that surfers should not have access to the video ones they watch again and again - with DRM it could be many different options for him to continue watching it... ads, e-mail etc.)

I read many complaints from TGP submitters on the new "pay to submit" offers from TGPs - most of them agree that only a few TGPs can offer a spot, and then it will almost guarantee sales... instead they submit to hundreds of TGPs and get sales from random TGPs - its turned into a volume game "how much bandwidth to burn to make a signup" instead of "how good I am at marketing" - so they get sloppy, just throw a few sponsor pics/movies on a page, write "free free free" at the bottom and pray to God that they will make a signup to cover the bandwidth (or their sponsor will if he is providing free hosting). If TGPs allowed more ads, better marketing possiblities, then it would mean better galleries, because they would actual have an option to "sale" the content on the gallery, and not just hope to be touched by the "signup god".
The best galleries I see on TGPs today, and the ones where typical paysite owners pays for a top spot - why, because he actual makes the gallery interesting in both content, markting and layout so it will make wholesome.

As I see it, then this is about optimizing the potential, instead of pissing on it - give gallery makers the room to make the TGP business better, let them use their creativity to make new products - to pump life back into a system, which is on life support (where would TGPs be today, if sponsors did not pay for content, hosting, design etc.). If all fails, then I´m sure TGP owners still can go back on the highway where present day TGPs are going - that takes minimal effort.

[Hell Puppy]

Different spin on the same principle. The tricks and specifics are different, but it all comes down to the same issue that TGP2 tried to address...

That is try to find a way to give the surfer less for free and still get traffic.

It's tough to compete with totally free. And I dont think you'll see any successful TGP webmasters doing anything that might cost them precious bookmarkers.

The sponsors are really the only ones who can make that happen. If the TGPs can suddenly not make money with all those bookmarkers, *then* they will change. But at least for now sponsors remain willing to buy traffic any way they can get it and the economics are such that the TGP masters can make good money even with really piss poor conversions.

[MissEve]

I guess I am stuck with Vick in the good old days of 99. I realise a few TGP owners are making money but how many TGP submitters are really making anything? I guess I am retarded but ......... you want something for free? Fuck you, pay me! :)

[Hell Puppy]

Originally posted by MissEve@Jul 17 2004, 11:39 PM
I guess I am stuck with Vick in the good old days of 99. I realise a few TGP owners are making money but how many TGP submitters are really making anything? I guess I am retarded but ......... you want something for free? Fuck you, pay me! :)
I think it's a question of perceived value of time and earnings.

Spending several hours a day submitting galleries and playing the TGP game for a few grand a month gross likely doesn't sound very appealing to most of us here. However, to someone in college or with no other real prospects in the world, it's pretty good return with a very low cost of entry.

And there are a few thousand people like this out there currently submitting their ass off to TGPs. If you wanna meet 'em, just stop by GFY. On the low end, it beats slinging fries at Mickey D's....the better ones make enough money to buy themselves things like 2-3 year old BMW 3-series and are happy as pigs in mud.

[Vick]

It's late and I'm uh ..... intoxicated :stout:
Shame, Shame, Shame on you Miss Roxy


Still think there's a piece of the puzzle you might not be equating .... yet

I'll bring it to Oprano Radio in an interview I'll be doing soon


and it's there to see, you just have to look



:okthumb: :okthumb: MissEve

[cj]

HP, I see your point ... tgp2 focused on trying to improve the model for webmasters and in doing so couldn't survive without surfer support.

Rolo, you are definately onto something but the hurdle you will have to overcome eventually is still the same - until tgp's are forced to stop providing so much porn for free in an area children can access, there will be the same hurdle.

What we need to do instead is to blow up the fortress ... or we can wait around for a higher power to do it for us like Visa did with paysites.

[Rolo]

Cause and effect can make some impact - ex. as I have written earlier, if sponsors/paysites started to do simple things like:

- removing cumshots etc. as free content (just cut the last 2-3 mins of each full length video before releasing it to affiliates). Effect : no affiliate will give away your entire product.

- Providing affiliates with free hosting, then setup each affiliate on their own subdomain or domain - keep an eye on bandwidth usage vs. signups on each domain/affiliate, and cut off the worse. Effect : will make affiliates aware how galleries work, forcing them to make galleries which converts or they need to pay for their own hosting.

- Providing hosted galleries? Setup each affiliate tgp with its own galleries on subdomain or domain - keep an eye on bandwidth usage vs. signups on each domain/affiliate, and cut off the worse. Effect : will make TGPs aware that their traffic is something which carry a price tag - if the traffic converts good, then prices will rise, if it converts bad, then the price will fall - simple busines sense, which will force TGPs with bad traffic to be exposed, and some will be aware on how to optimize their traffic towards sales - ex. by using some of the ideas from one of my posts.

- Recurrings from TGP traffic are always the lowest in program, however good converting galleries do not need a trial membership to convert, so get rid of low cost trial memberships, when its TGP traffic - make them pay for a month etc. Effect : Beside better ROI, then it will also mean less tricks from the paysites, which TGP owners will be glad to hear, and less worries about bandwidth sucking users from the TGPs who will pay $3 to download all content, and then cancel.

And I could go on - there are list of things, which each sponsor/paysite could do, which will cause an effect on TGPs...

It might not change the buisness over night for all TGPs, but for the single sponsor/paysite starting to look at the TGP traffic in this way, then it will increase profits and remove some headaches, making their business stronger vs. the sponsors/paysites who keep blindly throwing money into TGP without any real business concept/sense behind.

Also I suspect that sponsors and paysites are the next TGP owners, and they will do very well owning TGPs - not only because they will treat it as a business, but because they will bring the ideas and visions, which TGPs lack today.