f/911 - sold out show and standing ovation

[eatapeach]

at the 1:40 showing today in overland park kansas it was standing room only.

at the end most of the audience stood and clapped. when we exited the theater the lobby was packed with people waiting for the next showing. no wonder the republican operatives are trying everything they can to stop it.

in my opinion it was a good documentary, and moore didn't do much beyond letting bush bury himself. i wasn't one of the ones clapping at the end; i felt absolutely pummeled by all the information it delivered.

there were laughs and tears. the looks the members of senate and congress give to moore when he suggests they enlist their own sons for iraq is priceless, but i found it hard to keep a dry eye when the mother of a fallen US soldier reads the last ever letter home from her son.

regardless of your political affiliation this is a very important movie and one that all americans should see.

take it easy,
eatapeach

[Rolo]

Joseph Goebbels would have been proud, that his "documentary" style survived into the 21st century :heil:

[pushpills]

I'm going to wait for a week or two to see the movie so i'm not surrounded by easily swayed people. "If I heard one side that's good enough for me."

[eatapeach]

Originally posted by Rolo@Jun 25 2004, 01:59 PM
Joseph Goebbels would have been proud, that his "documentary" style survived into the 21st century :heil:
i love how suddenly everyone is an expert on what a documentary is supposed to be, even though most americans haven't seen one since grade school.

[pushpills]

and by the way.....10 idiots start clapping at once, the rest of the idiots in the house start to clap harder.


at least you weren't one of them. :)

[Rolo]

Originally posted by eatapeach+Jun 25 2004, 02:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (eatapeach @ Jun 25 2004, 02:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rolo@Jun 25 2004, 01:59 PM
Joseph Goebbels would have been proud, that his "documentary" style survived into the 21st century :heil:
i love how suddenly everyone is an expert on what a documentary is supposed to be, even though most americans haven't seen one since grade school. [/b][/quote]
Don´t take my word for it - take Joseph Goebbels writting in 1934, before WWII


The cleverest trick used in propaganda against Germany during the war was to accuse Germany of what our enemies themselves were doing. Even today large parts of world opinion are convinced that the typical characteristics of German propaganda are lying, crudeness, reversing the facts and the like. One needs only to remember the stories that were spread throughout the world at the beginning of the war about German soldiers chopping off children's hands and crucifying women to realize that Germany then was a defenseless victim of this campaign of calumny. It neither had nor used any means of defense.

The concept of propaganda has undergone a fundamental transformation, particularly as the result of political practice in Germany. Throughout the world today, people are beginning to see that a modern state, whether democratic or authoritarian, cannot withstand the subterranean forces of anarchy and chaos without propaganda. It is not only a matter of doing the right thing; the people must understand that the right thing is the right thing. Propaganda includes everything that helps the people to realize this.

Political propaganda in principle is active and revolutionary. It is aimed at the broad masses. It speaks the language of the people because it wants to be understood by the people. Its task is the highest creative art of putting sometimes complicated events and facts in a way simple enough to be understood by the man on the street. Its foundation is that there is nothing the people cannot understand, rather things must be put in a way that they can understand. It is a question of making it clear to him by using the proper approach, evidence and language.

Propaganda is a means to an end. Its purpose is to lead the people to an understanding that will allow them to willingly and without internal resistance devote themselves to the tasks and goals of a superior leadership. If propaganda is to succeed, it must know what it wants. It must keep a clear and firm goal in mind, and seek the appropriate means and methods to reach that goal. Propaganda as such is neither good nor evil. Its moral value is determined by the the goals it seeks.

Propaganda must be creative. It is by no means a matter for the bureaucracy or official administration, rather it is a matter of productive fantasy. The genuine propagandist must be a true artist. He must be a master of the popular soul, using it as an instrument to express the majesty of a genuine political will. Propaganda can be pro or con. In neither case does it have to be negative. The only thing that is important is whether or not its words are true and genuine expressions of the people. During its period of opposition, the National Socialist movement proved that criticism can be constructive, indeed that in a time which the government is in the hands of destructive powers it may be the only constructive element.


http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb59.htm

[Rolo]

Originally posted by eatapeach@Jun 25 2004, 02:10 PM
i love how suddenly everyone is an expert on what a documentary is supposed to be

Main Entry: 1doc·u·men·ta·ry
Pronunciation: "dä-ky&-'men-t&-rE, -'men-trE
Function: adjective
1 : being or consisting of documents : contained or certified in writing <documentary evidence>
2 : of, relating to, or employing documentation in literature or art; broadly : FACTUAL, OBJECTIVE <a documentary film of the war>

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...entary&x=8&y=11 (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=documentary&x=8&y=11)

Is there objectivity in Michael Moore´s movies?


Main Entry: 1ob·jec·tive
Pronunciation: &b-'jek-tiv, äb-
Function: adjective
1 a : relating to or existing as an object of thought without consideration of independent existence -- used chiefly in medieval philosophy b : of, relating to, or being an object , phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind <objective reality> <our reveries... are significantly and repeatedly shaped by our transactions with the objective world -- Marvin Reznikoff> -- compare SUBJECTIVE 3a c of a symptom of disease : perceptible to persons other than the affected individual -- compare SUBJECTIVE 4c d : involving or deriving from sense perception or experience with actual objects , conditions, or phenomena <objective awareness> <objective data>
2 : relating to, characteristic of, or constituting the case of words that follow prepositions or transitive verbs
3 a : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations <objective art> <an objective history of the war> <an objective judgment> b of a test : limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum
synonym see MATERIAL, FAIR

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...ivity&x=23&y=17 (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=objectivity&x=23&y=17)

[eatapeach]

edit

i had written out a refutation of your argument, but then i realized i don't give a fuck.

take it easy,
eatapeach

[Dravyk]

Second time I heard this today. Earlier tonight was talking to a friend in a small and VERY Republican town in California. Same thing. 11am showing that hardly anyone goes to was sold out and standing ovation.

I detect a pattern emerging. :rolleyes:

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by eatapeach@Jun 25 2004, 11:21 PM
edit

i had written out a refutation of your argument, but then i realized i don't give a fuck.

take it easy,
eatapeach
LOL... I'll just echo that statement.

Let sleeping dogs lie...

[Almighty Colin]

Do you think there were many Republicans in the audience clapping?

[Meni]

How's this
let go shoot a 'documentary' promoting bush
and all the great stuff he does
ok?

how's that saudi bush money oil story?

[Evil Chris]

If it were the early 60's I think Michael Moore would have "disappeared" by now.

[Jim]

I detect a pattern emerging.

could it be the fact that it is only playing in 800 theaters?

that would make for a lot of sold out showtimes......

[Rolo]

I do not really care for Bush or any other politician, however the fact that people watching a Michael Moore movie see it as "documentary" is really disturbing... Michael Moore present what people want to belive, he does not present the "facts" in a way so they are objectiv, so you can make up your own mind.

His movies are just like every other movie - a small world, where people can escape the real world for some time - sure you can feel inspired by a movie, you can feel sad by a movie - thats not fake feelings, however the tools the filmmaker used were not objectivity - they were subjectivity.

You might not agree with my Joseph Goebbels argument, because my argument was subjective... so if I was to make a movie where I draw "conclusions" between Joseph Goebbels and Michael Moore, then I would probably not see you in the standing ovation, however people who do not like Michael Moore will be, because I tell them what they want to belive...

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
Soren Kierkegaard

[Dravyk]

Originally posted by Jim@Jun 26 2004, 09:44 AM
I detect a pattern emerging.

could it be the fact that it is only playing in 800 theaters?

that would make for a lot of sold out showtimes......
I was referring to standing ovations at theaters in Republican areas, not the sold out shows.

[Vick]

Someone please let me know when Micheal Moore makes a documentary

Also the release deal is with AMC theaters only - for whatever reason

Of course there is going to be standing ovations or at the very least a very positive response, only the target audience is going to see the film

Moore may make some interesting points but not too thrilled with how he presents them, Moore is as good at manipulation of people and the media as it gets

[Nickatilynx]

Moore does not say it is objective.

He says its a work of non-fiction rather than a documentary.

Just thought I would throw in a fact.

[Vick]

Yeah Nick
go fuck up a thread with facts

ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[grimm]

all shows sold out here too in new orleans, standing ovations

http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/re...renheit911.html (http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/reviews/fahrenheit911.html)

this nails it on the head though, the irst hour-hour and a half were excellent, but then subjectivity replaced objectivity and it went downhill from there


one thin i can say tho, is that a LOT of people hate bush, and this movie is going to swing a lot of votes.


FWIW, i left early, it got too inaccurate, became too ad hominem for my tastes.



Matt

[Meni]

Originally posted by grimm@Jun 26 2004, 03:16 PM
all shows sold out here too in new orleans, standing ovations

http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/re...renheit911.html (http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/reviews/fahrenheit911.html)

this nails it on the head though, the irst hour-hour and a half were excellent, but then subjectivity replaced objectivity and it went downhill from there


one thin i can say tho, is that a LOT of people hate bush, and this movie is going to swing a lot of votes.


FWIW, i left early, it got too inaccurate, became too ad hominem for my tastes.



Matt
christianitytoday?

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by eatapeach+Jun 25 2004, 05:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (eatapeach @ Jun 25 2004, 05:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rolo@Jun 25 2004, 01:59 PM
Joseph Goebbels would have been proud, that his "documentary" style survived into the 21st century :heil:
i love how suddenly everyone is an expert on what a documentary is supposed to be, even though most americans haven't seen one since grade school. [/b][/quote]
That is nonsense - with the advent of cable, documentaries are everywhere - REAL ones, not progpagands.

History channel, discovery channel, biography, not to mentioned PBS etc....

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Meni+Jun 26 2004, 04:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Meni @ Jun 26 2004, 04:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-grimm@Jun 26 2004, 03:16 PM
all shows sold out here too in new orleans, standing ovations

http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/re...renheit911.html (http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/reviews/fahrenheit911.html)

this nails it on the head though, the irst hour-hour and a half were excellent, but then subjectivity replaced objectivity and it went downhill from there


one thin i can say tho, is that a LOT of people hate bush, and this movie is going to swing a lot of votes.


FWIW, i left early, it got too inaccurate, became too ad hominem for my tastes.



Matt
christianitytoday? [/b][/quote]
and why not????

I find this article on Heffner vey balanced, accurate and entertaining:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/012/5.50.html

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Dravyk@Jun 26 2004, 12:22 AM
Second time I heard this today. Earlier tonight was talking to a friend in a small and VERY Republican town in California. Same thing. 11am showing that hardly anyone goes to was sold out and standing ovation.

I detect a pattern emerging. :rolleyes:
I am going to go out on a limb and say the people seeing the movie on the first night it was released probably were not going to vote for Bush. They probably did not vote for Bush in 2000, and they probably think Bush stold the election from Gore.

The most Republican cities still have large segmeants of Democrats.

So I would not gauge anything by first weeks reponse.

I give props to Moore, has has done a great job servicing the alienated segment of the population, worked the hype machine perfectly, and is going to make a MINT!

[Vick]

Please allow me to try to explain this again

Fahrenheit 911 is in a LIMITED RELEASE

It's is only playing in AMC theaters (released by Lion's Gate)- currently you can't see it anywhere else

That ensures a crowd that is going out of their way to be able to see the film

Also it creates more hype for the film due the audiences that aren't able to see the film at this time

Try to see it in a Lowe's, Muvico or other theater - YOU CAN'T

I can't get the weekend numbers yet but I expect the move not to even be in the top 5 grossing (money wise) - when your film gets it's butt kicked by dodge ball what does that say?

[Vick]

p.s. BFC only did $21,244,913 at the box office

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by Vick@Jun 26 2004, 11:02 PM
It's is only playing in AMC theaters (released by Lion's Gate)- currently you can't see it anywhere else

That ensures a crowd that is going out of their way to be able to see the film
not true
its also playing at Loews, yes same Loews cineplex now owned by Carlyle Group

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by Vick@Jun 27 2004, 12:02 AM
Please allow me to try to explain this again

Fahrenheit 911 is in a LIMITED RELEASE
For now maybe. However I'm sure it will hit more theatres very soon.

We tried three different theatres last night. Every one of them sold out.

[Vick]

I stand corrected

But that's weird as the Muvico (which is one of the busiest theaters in the US) had advertised it here and when i asked why it wasn't playing this weekend they said it was in limited release

Maybe there's more to the story


Edit - also it's not playing at the lowe's here

[Almighty Colin]

I haven't seen it yet but I don't think the film will have much of an effect on the election. There were three shows sold out at my local theater yesterday night by the way. I think the influence of Moore's film will be drowned out by all the other factors in play - the economy, Iraq, Osama (?), the debates, the conventions, other mass media influences, international terrorism, oil prices and so on.

A few points.

1. Moore's film is just noise in the big picture. The two biggest biggest factors in the election are likely to be the economy and security. There are so many outside factors in these two issues that predictability is impossible. People's opinions on the economy are split by voter intention. 4/5 of those who intend to vote for Kerry say the economy is only fair or poor. More than half of Bush's supporters rate the economy as good-excellent. On just that one factor, we're likely to see more of a factor than on a Moore movie which will be seen mostly, I think, by partisans. People watch Moore's film one time but watch FOX News or listen to Air America much more frequently. Book after book attacks "the liberals" or the "conservatives".

2. I think the movie was released too early to have much of an effect. Hell, Saddam was captured and even that historically significant event is having - I think - little effect on the election. It happened too long before the election.

3. The election is already the most polarized ever. Bush has an 86% approval among Republicans and 14% among Democrats. As Grimm pointed out, a lot of voters "hate Bush". I'd have to guess that the people cheering at the film would be in a "hate Bush" category. Grimm pointed out that the movie will swing a lot of votes but also mentioned that he left the theater early so I'm curious as to which voters will be swung, in his opinion. The independents, I guess? Maybe that is true.

Maybe Gallup will do a poll. Just watch next week's poll. Will Kerry get a bump from the movie? If so, wouldn't it be drowned out quickly by the effects of Kerry's choice of running mate, the convention speeches, and world and domestic events? Will Kerry choose a strong running mate who can give him some Southern states? Most people have seen Kerry only a little. When they begin to tune in will they like his personality and his message? Will the jobs picture continue to get better or retract? Will Iraq look any safer in November than it does today?

The single biggest argument you could make in favor of the movie influencing the election is the closeness of the race - which is a decent argument. So could the movie influence enough swing voters in a state like Florida, for example, to vote Kerry? I still doubt it given the above arguments.

[TheEnforcer]

Originally posted by Vick@Jun 26 2004, 11:02 PM
I can't get the weekend numbers yet but I expect the move not to even be in the top 5 grossing (money wise) - when your film gets it's butt kicked by dodge ball what does that say?
Whoops!!

Looks like it will likely be the #1 movie over the weekend and the per screen average is quite amazing.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?...04-06-26&p=.htm (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?sortdate=2004-06-26&p=.htm)



I don't plan on going to see the film but it certainly has had a quite successful opening weekend.

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by Colin@Jun 27 2004, 09:54 AM
I haven't seen it yet but I don't think the film will have much of an effect on the election. There were three shows sold out at my local theater yesterday night by the way. I think the influence of Moore's film will be drowned out by all the other factors in play - the economy, Iraq, Osama (?), the debates, the conventions, other mass media influences, international terrorism, oil prices and so on.

A few points.

1. Moore's film is just ...<snip>...
Colin.... Many people would rather see the movie than read (your) the book. (of a post)... :D

Therefore, I believe the movie will have a bigger impact than you think.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Evil Chris@Jun 27 2004, 02:57 PM
Colin.... Many people would rather see the movie than read (your) the book. (of a post)... :D

Therefore, I believe the movie will have a bigger impact than you think.
So do you predict a big swing in the next gallup poll to Kerry? I bet ya that Kerry gets a bigger bump from the Democratic National Convention than he does from this movie. In fact, it's possible that Kerry could get a runaway lead after the Convention IF moderate Republicans and independents like what he has to say. I don't think that possibility exists from the Moore movie.

[Dravyk]

Originally posted by TheEnforcer@Jun 27 2004, 10:24 AM
Looks like it will likely be the #1 movie over the weekend and the per screen average is quite amazing.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?...04-06-26&p=.htm (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?sortdate=2004-06-26&p=.htm)
I was just wondering what the per screen average was. :) Thanks for the link, TE!

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by Colin+Jun 27 2004, 04:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Jun 27 2004, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Evil Chris@Jun 27 2004, 02:57 PM
Colin.... Many people would rather see the movie than read (your) the book. (of a post)... :D

Therefore, I believe the movie will have a bigger impact than you think.
So do you predict a big swing in the next gallup poll to Kerry? I bet ya that Kerry gets a bigger bump from the Democratic National Convention than he does from this movie. In fact, it's possible that Kerry could get a runaway lead after the Convention IF moderate Republicans and independents like what he has to say. I don't think that possibility exists from the Moore movie. [/b][/quote]
a big swing maybe not. A definite dent? Yes.

[Mike AI]

I doubt the movie will change many peoples minds.

The movie will confirm what people already beleive.

Bush is Hitler or Moore is a bafoon.

[grimm]

Originally posted by Colin@Jun 27 2004, 05:54 AM
I haven't seen it yet but I don't think the film will have much of an effect on the election. There were three shows sold out at my local theater yesterday night by the way. I think the influence of Moore's film will be drowned out by all the other factors in play - the economy, Iraq, Osama (?), the debates, the conventions, other mass media influences, international terrorism, oil prices and so on.

A few points.

1. Moore's film is just noise in the big picture. The two biggest biggest factors in the election are likely to be the economy and security. There are so many outside factors in these two issues that predictability is impossible. People's opinions on the economy are split by voter intention. 4/5 of those who intend to vote for Kerry say the economy is only fair or poor. More than half of Bush's supporters rate the economy as good-excellent. On just that one factor, we're likely to see more of a factor than on a Moore movie which will be seen mostly, I think, by partisans. People watch Moore's film one time but watch FOX News or listen to Air America much more frequently. Book after book attacks "the liberals" or the "conservatives".

2. I think the movie was released too early to have much of an effect. Hell, Saddam was captured and even that historically significant event is having - I think - little effect on the election. It happened too long before the election.

3. The election is already the most polarized ever. Bush has an 86% approval among Republicans and 14% among Democrats. As Grimm pointed out, a lot of voters "hate Bush". I'd have to guess that the people cheering at the film would be in a "hate Bush" category. Grimm pointed out that the movie will swing a lot of votes but also mentioned that he left the theater early so I'm curious as to which voters will be swung, in his opinion. The independents, I guess? Maybe that is true.

Maybe Gallup will do a poll. Just watch next week's poll. Will Kerry get a bump from the movie? If so, wouldn't it be drowned out quickly by the effects of Kerry's choice of running mate, the convention speeches, and world and domestic events? Will Kerry choose a strong running mate who can give him some Southern states? Most people have seen Kerry only a little. When they begin to tune in will they like his personality and his message? Will the jobs picture continue to get better or retract? Will Iraq look any safer in November than it does today?

The single biggest argument you could make in favor of the movie influencing the election is the closeness of the race - which is a decent argument. So could the movie influence enough swing voters in a state like Florida, for example, to vote Kerry? I still doubt it given the above arguments.
I did leave the theater early. the abrupt left turn and rhetoric was getting repettive, and the stunts that were pulled unrealistic (a congressman cannot sign his son/daughter up for the military, so the dumbfounded look on the ongressmans face needed to be viewed in that light, a more "what the hell are you talking about" than, "i wouldnt send my children to the military", eletist spin he was looking for., and it was getting past 3:30 in the morning, and i was growing tired of the second half of the movie.


I do think this will swing a fair amount of votes, simply because the first hour and a half paints very clearly the overt deception and blatant idiocy on both sides of the ticket. so if anything this film will put fence riders in the mood for change across the board. anything they can change they probably will, right or wrong. right or left. so the independent vote may shift over to Kerry. Th footage of bush catering to his rich buddies and ignoring or being just plain oblivious to the middle class may insult his real "core", working class america. but again, colin is right, people look at their bottom line and the things that are important to them. Are tehy stable, is their neighborhood and schools safe for their kids. Is there enough money for a decent christmas, are taxes going up or down. A lot of the middle class, IMHO, is up in the air. I know the upper brackets saw a major decrease in federal tax, but the middle and lower brackets saw a much smaller change, proportionally. But that has been a Republican way of doing things, dating back to even before "Trickle Down Economics". an you can argue back and forth about whether that worked'till the cows come home, there is just no way to quantify it, too many mitigating factors over the years.


The fact that we are debating the efect a movie will have on our presidency, just shows you how little regard for the state of politcs in this nation will be there come November 2

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by grimm+Jun 27 2004, 08:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (grimm @ Jun 27 2004, 08:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Colin@Jun 27 2004, 05:54 AM
I haven't seen it yet but I don't think the film will have much of an effect on the election. There were three shows sold out at my local theater yesterday night by the way. I think the influence of Moore's film will be drowned out by all the other factors in play - the economy, Iraq, Osama (?), the debates, the conventions, other mass media influences, international terrorism, oil prices and so on.

A few points.

1. Moore's film is just noise in the big picture. The two biggest biggest factors in the election are likely to be the economy and security. There are so many outside factors in these two issues that predictability is impossible. People's opinions on the economy are split by voter intention. 4/5 of those who intend to vote for Kerry say the economy is only fair or poor. More than half of Bush's supporters rate the economy as good-excellent. On just that one factor, we're likely to see more of a factor than on a Moore movie which will be seen mostly, I think, by partisans. People watch Moore's film one time but watch FOX News or listen to Air America much more frequently. Book after book attacks "the liberals" or the "conservatives".

2. I think the movie was released too early to have much of an effect. Hell, Saddam was captured and even that historically significant event is having - I think - little effect on the election. It happened too long before the election.

3. The election is already the most polarized ever. Bush has an 86% approval among Republicans and 14% among Democrats. As Grimm pointed out, a lot of voters "hate Bush". I'd have to guess that the people cheering at the film would be in a "hate Bush" category. Grimm pointed out that the movie will swing a lot of votes but also mentioned that he left the theater early so I'm curious as to which voters will be swung, in his opinion. The independents, I guess? Maybe that is true.

Maybe Gallup will do a poll. Just watch next week's poll. Will Kerry get a bump from the movie? If so, wouldn't it be drowned out quickly by the effects of Kerry's choice of running mate, the convention speeches, and world and domestic events? Will Kerry choose a strong running mate who can give him some Southern states? Most people have seen Kerry only a little. When they begin to tune in will they like his personality and his message? Will the jobs picture continue to get better or retract? Will Iraq look any safer in November than it does today?

The single biggest argument you could make in favor of the movie influencing the election is the closeness of the race - which is a decent argument. So could the movie influence enough swing voters in a state like Florida, for example, to vote Kerry? I still doubt it given the above arguments.
I did leave the theater early. the abrupt left turn and rhetoric was getting repettive, and the stunts that were pulled unrealistic (a congressman cannot sign his son/daughter up for the military, so the dumbfounded look on the ongressmans face needed to be viewed in that light, a more "what the hell are you talking about" than, "i wouldnt send my children to the military", eletist spin he was looking for., and it was getting past 3:30 in the morning, and i was growing tired of the second half of the movie.


I do think this will swing a fair amount of votes, simply because the first hour and a half paints very clearly the overt deception and blatant idiocy on both sides of the ticket. so if anything this film will put fence riders in the mood for change across the board. anything they can change they probably will, right or wrong. right or left. so the independent vote may shift over to Kerry. Th footage of bush catering to his rich buddies and ignoring or being just plain oblivious to the middle class may insult his real "core", working class america. but again, colin is right, people look at their bottom line and the things that are important to them. Are tehy stable, is their neighborhood and schools safe for their kids. Is there enough money for a decent christmas, are taxes going up or down. A lot of the middle class, IMHO, is up in the air. I know the upper brackets saw a major decrease in federal tax, but the middle and lower brackets saw a much smaller change, proportionally. But that has been a Republican way of doing things, dating back to even before "Trickle Down Economics". an you can argue back and forth about whether that worked'till the cows come home, there is just no way to quantify it, too many mitigating factors over the years.


The fact that we are debating the efect a movie will have on our presidency, just shows you how little regard for the state of politcs in this nation will be there come November 2 [/b][/quote]


Grimm, good post.

It was great seeing you Friday!!

Dinner was GREAT!!

[RawAlex]

Been away for a few days, relaxing and ignoring things... was surprised to see how much of an effect F/911 is having in the US.

22 Million opening weekend is huge, the reactions (as reported here and elsewhere) seem to be all in the "very big" category, and I have had two people email me today and recommend I go see it.

It will almost certainly drop quickly in the next couple of weeks, except that limited release should keep the dollars per screen up for a while.

Will it have an effect on the election? Considering the plan is to have this OUT of the theaters and into DVD release just in time for the election period, I think you will see the issues raised in the movie becoming talking points between now and then, and having a definate influence on the agenda, at least short term.

More importantly, it arms pro-Kerry people with a bunch of "why bush is a loser" points without kerry having to say them - little potential for negative back spin on this one.

I would like to point out that months and months of negative campaigning from the Bush side has done little to change the polls, only the death of the beloved Ronald Reagan was able to boost him temporarily. Other than that, it seems that Kerry is playing the best hand right now by just tossing out low cards and letting Bush put himself into the light as the attack dog candidate. It isn't working, and the last Bush ad I saw was actually a positive pro-Bush ad rather than an attack on kerry.

F/911 just points out the shortcomings, as someone said, letting Bush dig himself into a hole.

Anyone hear that they have asked Cheney to step down, not be on the ticket? They are trying to push up someone to replace Bush after the next term...

Alex

[grimm]

I could have gone on, but figured nobody wants to read long posts or see long movies when the rhetoric get repetitive, right colin;)


I like the ripples of this whole controversial cannonball and what it says about our nation, i this is a thing of importance. I went to see a good film, was disappointed to a degree, I did not go to learn anything that wasnt already publicly aailable and being shoved through ever available orafice by every form of media.

The applause killed me. those were definitly th bush haters, because it wasnt LOL applause, it was "go get em" media lynching party sort of clapping;)


Mike,


friday was fun:)

imagine that, 3 partners go for a nice meal, a cocktail afterward, and have a great time, ith a conspicuous lack of drugs or strippers.;)


hmmm... any comment?;)

[Vick]

Originally posted by TheEnforcer+Jun 27 2004, 09:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheEnforcer @ Jun 27 2004, 09:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Vick@Jun 26 2004, 11:02 PM
I can't get the weekend numbers yet but I expect the move not to even be in the top 5 grossing (money wise) - when your film gets it's butt kicked by dodge ball what does that say?
Whoops!!

Looks like it will likely be the #1 movie over the weekend and the per screen average is quite amazing.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?...04-06-26&p=.htm (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?sortdate=2004-06-26&p=.htm)



I don't plan on going to see the film but it certainly has had a quite successful opening weekend. [/b][/quote]
I WAS WRONG

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Jun 27 2004, 09:08 PM
I would like to point out that months and months of negative campaigning from the Bush side has done little to change the polls, only the death of the beloved Ronald Reagan was able to boost him temporarily.
Hmmm, well Bush has lead all the way until just a few months ago and that change has come mostly from people's perception of the war in Iraq not going well. Bush lead all the way until mid Feb. Kerry lead from about mid February until a few weeks ago. Now it is tied. There was a fair rise in the past month of people's perception of the economy so that is probably the cause of Bush's rise. Perception always lags on the economy.

I believe you said once that the election is Kerry's to win or lose but I think it is more in Bush's hands, as the incumbent, than Kerrys. As Iraq and the economy go, if you consider those "in Bush's hands", will go the Bush campaign. Kerry's greatest influence on the election will come from his performance at the Democratic National Convention and his choice of running mate. It's possible Kerry could jump ahead a good amount at the convention but difficult to guess because of the extremely polarized electorate.

I think most people are either voting "For Bush" or "Against Bush".

[RawAlex]

Colin, in the last few weeks there has been that halo effect from the whole Reagan thing. Beloved republican, blah blah blah... Pretty much all the pundits have said there would be a boost, at least short term.

The return of Iraq as a sovereign nation will certainly help as well, as it gives the impression that "the war is over". That will last until more US troops die. Having that hostage killed on the same day certainly took away from the strength of the move. Overall, there will still be a short term boost.

However, unless there is a major reduction in the number of troops in Iraq before the election, I suspect you will see Kerry hitting on the fact that "the war isn't over, our soldiers are still at risk and still dying in Iraq"

The MM effect will be harder to guage... and he gets two bites at the apple, as the DVD will be release before the election...

Alex

[grimm]

Originally posted by Meni+Jun 26 2004, 01:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Meni @ Jun 26 2004, 01:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-grimm@Jun 26 2004, 03:16 PM
all shows sold out here too in new orleans, standing ovations

http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/re...renheit911.html (http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/reviews/fahrenheit911.html)

this nails it on the head though, the irst hour-hour and a half were excellent, but then subjectivity replaced objectivity and it went downhill from there


one thin i can say tho, is that a LOT of people hate bush, and this movie is going to swing a lot of votes.


FWIW, i left early, it got too inaccurate, became too ad hominem for my tastes.



Matt
christianitytoday? [/b][/quote]
yeah, go figure and it is a moderate review.

[grimm]

Originally posted by Vick@Jun 26 2004, 08:02 PM
Please allow me to try to explain this again

Fahrenheit 911 is in a LIMITED RELEASE

It's is only playing in AMC theaters (released by Lion's Gate)- currently you can't see it anywhere else

That ensures a crowd that is going out of their way to be able to see the film

Also it creates more hype for the film due the audiences that aren't able to see the film at this time

Try to see it in a Lowe's, Muvico or other theater - YOU CAN'T

I can't get the weekend numbers yet but I expect the move not to even be in the top 5 grossing (money wise) - when your film gets it's butt kicked by dodge ball what does that say?
AMC is currently the largest movie theater chain in the nation, perched on buying out Loews.

Lionsgate is on of the largest independent film producers.


F9/11 grossed 22 mil in 3 days, audience of 3-4 million.


I dont see where the argument is, people went to see it, it made money at teh largest single set of theaters in the country. If this was shrek 2, would you argue the same argument?

[grimm]

and as to why only AMC. it is one of the only chain of theaters not owned by Disney. go figure

[grimm]

Originally posted by grimm@Jun 29 2004, 08:17 PM
and as to why only AMC. it is one of the only chain of theaters not owned by Disney. go figure
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?...04-06-28&p=.htm (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?sortdate=2004-06-28&p=.htm)

nice, 4.5 million on a Monday? doubled dodgeball, which i saw last night and thought was pretty damn funny.

-Matt

[BradShaw]

I went tonight, left after an hour. I am too smart to get fed that bullshit.

I did notice several webmasters on the back row eating it up, believing all the BS.

[grimm]

Originally posted by BradShaw@Jun 29 2004, 08:29 PM
I went tonight, left after an hour. I am too smart to get fed that bullshit.

I did notice several webmasters on the back row eating it up, believing all the BS.
dodgeball was some bullshit. i would have left too:)

[Vick]

Originally posted by grimm+Jun 29 2004, 11:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (grimm @ Jun 29 2004, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Vick@Jun 26 2004, 08:02 PM
Please allow me to try to explain this again

Fahrenheit 911 is in a LIMITED RELEASE

It's is only playing in AMC theaters (released by Lion's Gate)- currently you can't see it anywhere else

That ensures a crowd that is going out of their way to be able to see the film

Also it creates more hype for the film due the audiences that aren't able to see the film at this time

Try to see it in a Lowe's, Muvico or other theater - YOU CAN'T

I can't get the weekend numbers yet but I expect the move not to even be in the top 5 grossing (money wise) - when your film gets it's butt kicked by dodge ball what does that say?
AMC is currently the largest movie theater chain in the nation, perched on buying out Loews.

Lionsgate is on of the largest independent film producers.


F9/11 grossed 22 mil in 3 days, audience of 3-4 million.


I dont see where the argument is, people went to see it, it made money at teh largest single set of theaters in the country. If this was shrek 2, would you argue the same argument? [/b][/quote]
Grimm - I already said I was wrong about F911 making it into the top 5 for the weekend

Are you sure about other theater chains being owned by Disney?
I don't think Muvico is

and I still say Shrek2 is a more important film :D


Totally unrelated but interesting - I believe Muvico owns the most attended theater in the USA, it's about 5 minutes from my house. 24 screen complex

and it's a very good possibility that Muvico will draw more people through the doors this entire year than ....

... the Baltimore Orioles

but then who wants to see the Orioles ah ha ha ha



Edit - and as muc as I don;t like to admit it F911 is doing huge per screen/showing numbers
It may fall off a little as what is expected to be the summer's biggest movie opens today Spiderman 2

[BradShaw]

Grimm, Snuggles miss you.

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by grimm@Jun 29 2004, 11:17 PM
and as to why only AMC. it is one of the only chain of theaters not owned by Disney. go figure
from where i'm sitting its still playing at Lowes
and Century Theaters, who owns Century ?
and obviously AMC

so all that bullshit about limited release and white man keeping Moore down goes out the window for me, cuz only Meni can understand it

800 screens for the opening day is probably a near record or a record for a documentary anyway

[Winetalk.com]

The ONLY movie which matters to me is...
Spiderman II,
as I wrote 20th puts on MVL,
everything else is yadda-yadda-yadda
;-)))

[grimm]

Originally posted by Vick+Jun 29 2004, 09:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vick @ Jun 29 2004, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by grimm@Jun 29 2004, 11:13 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Vick@Jun 26 2004, 08:02 PM
Please allow me to try to explain this again

Fahrenheit 911 is in a LIMITED RELEASE

It's is only playing in AMC theaters (released by Lion's Gate)- currently you can't see it anywhere else

That ensures a crowd that is going out of their way to be able to see the film

Also it creates more hype for the film due the audiences that aren't able to see the film at this time

Try to see it in a Lowe's, Muvico or other theater - YOU CAN'T

I can't get the weekend numbers yet but I expect the move not to even be in the top 5 grossing (money wise) - when your film gets it's butt kicked by dodge ball what does that say?
AMC is currently the largest movie theater chain in the nation, perched on buying out Loews.

Lionsgate is on of the largest independent film producers.


F9/11 grossed 22 mil in 3 days, audience of 3-4 million.


I dont see where the argument is, people went to see it, it made money at teh largest single set of theaters in the country. If this was shrek 2, would you argue the same argument?
Grimm - I already said I was wrong about F911 making it into the top 5 for the weekend

Are you sure about other theater chains being owned by Disney?
I don't think Muvico is

and I still say Shrek2 is a more important film :D


Totally unrelated but interesting - I believe Muvico owns the most attended theater in the USA, it's about 5 minutes from my house. 24 screen complex

and it's a very good possibility that Muvico will draw more people through the doors this entire year than ....

... the Baltimore Orioles

but then who wants to see the Orioles ah ha ha ha



Edit - and as muc as I don;t like to admit it F911 is doing huge per screen/showing numbers
It may fall off a little as what is expected to be the summer's biggest movie opens today Spiderman 2 [/b][/quote]
yeah i missed your retraction.


an hey, the oriols are onteh rise. made good decisions in the offseason. cant turn shit into gold overnight, and besides football season is in two months;)

the AMC here has 22 screens, not 24.10 on one side, 12 on the other.

Im sure about loews. the fact that they reside on the same square block as an ESPN zone in NYC (or across the street, seals that, everything is oned by disney there;)


and withut a doubt this weekend will be spiermans weekend. f911 saw its big opennig weekend, but it is still pulling in 4-5 mil a day. just think about it, BFC made 18 mil on DVD sales alone. this could be the first documentary to hit the 80-100 mil mark. but it did somehow cost 58 millions.


all in all the reaction is that of Americans wanting to have a voice, and ot hear other voices. This is a very confused nation. an election year, a war... any speculation on the November election this early is nothing more than mews media outlet fodder to boost ratings. These guys arent campaigning, they are smearing. using laws for purposes they were not meant to? putting out fires more than setting them?


Matt

[grimm]

tell snuggles i miss him too, squirmey little thing:)

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by grimm@Jun 30 2004, 07:30 AM
this could be the first documentary to hit the 80-100 mil mark. but it did somehow cost 58 millions.
$58 mil. Isn't there a decimal missing there?

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by BradShaw@Jun 30 2004, 12:29 AM
I went tonight, left after an hour. I am too smart to get fed that bullshit.

I did notice several webmasters on the back row eating it up, believing all the BS.
all the BS? :lol:
Maybe you should re-watch it with the sound turned off so you don't have to subject yourself to MM's commentary.

Just out of curiousity, what station do you prefer for your news?

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Evil Chris+Jun 30 2004, 09:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Evil Chris @ Jun 30 2004, 09:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Brad "little weasel" Shaw@Jun 30 2004, 12:29 AM
I went tonight, left after an hour. I am too smart to get fed that bullshit.

I did notice several webmasters on the back row eating it up, believing all the BS.
all the BS? :lol:
Maybe you should re-watch it with the sound turned off so you don't have to subject yourself to MM's commentary.

Just out of curiousity, what station do you prefer for your news? [/b][/quote]
Doesn't everyone just read the news on the internet now? ;-)

[RawAlex]

Matt, the two brothers who arranged distribution bought the film from Disney for around 6 million. I think you slipped a decimal point in there!

80 million box office won't be out of range, having done already 30 million (according to boxoffice mojo). However, this might weaken DVD sales in the end, although the timing of the release of the DVD might make it spike way up, as it should be VERY near election day, and should get good press coverage.

Overall, this will give Moore more than enough working capital to produce a few more interesting movies in the future.

Alex

[Vick]

Originally posted by grimm@Jun 30 2004, 07:30 AM
besides football season is in two months;)


After that everything pales in comparison :okthumb: :okthumb:

[grimm]

Originally posted by Colin+Jun 30 2004, 04:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Jun 30 2004, 04:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-grimm@Jun 30 2004, 07:30 AM
this could be the first documentary to hit the 80-100 mil mark. but it did somehow cost 58 millions.
$58 mil. Isn't there a decimal missing there? [/b][/quote]
no i read who was it the weinstein brothers wplit to do this film, the bottom line was 58 million.beats me how they spent it.

[grimm]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Jun 30 2004, 07:33 AM
Matt, the two brothers who arranged distribution bought the film from Disney for around 6 million. I think you slipped a decimal point in there!

80 million box office won't be out of range, having done already 30 million (according to boxoffice mojo). However, this might weaken DVD sales in the end, although the timing of the release of the DVD might make it spike way up, as it should be VERY near election day, and should get good press coverage.

Overall, this will give Moore more than enough working capital to produce a few more interesting movies in the future.

Alex
i stand corrected, missed a decimal point


http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=fahrenheit911.htm


i was wondering hw a film with the production values o a documentary could cost so much, must have been all the on set massages:)

[grimm]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Jun 30 2004, 07:33 AM
Matt, the two brothers who arranged distribution bought the film from Disney for around 6 million. I think you slipped a decimal point in there!

80 million box office won't be out of range, having done already 30 million (according to boxoffice mojo). However, this might weaken DVD sales in the end, although the timing of the release of the DVD might make it spike way up, as it should be VERY near election day, and should get good press coverage.

Overall, this will give Moore more than enough working capital to produce a few more interesting movies in the future.

Alex
Its doing a steafy 3-4 mil a day. probably will slow to a mil a day after Spidey comes out, even lower when it goes back to limited release. But he has a way of selling DVDs. and you are right, i imagine it will come out on dvd right around the middle or beginning of october. so 80 mil is definitately attainable for this film.



which would make it the second highest grossing independant film ever. behind "clerks" which has been selling DVD's for what 10 years?:)

[grimm]

Originally posted by Evil Chris+Jun 30 2004, 06:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Evil Chris @ Jun 30 2004, 06:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Brad "little weasel" Shaw@Jun 30 2004, 12:29 AM
I went tonight, left after an hour. I am too smart to get fed that bullshit.

I did notice several webmasters on the back row eating it up, believing all the BS.
all the BS? :lol:
Maybe you should re-watch it with the sound turned off so you don't have to subject yourself to MM's commentary.

Just out of curiousity, what station do you prefer for your news? [/b][/quote]
http://www.nakednews.com/


;)