Bitch punch

[Buff]

In boxing the fight stopper is the shot that lands flush with the side of the jaw, torquing the head to the side and throwing it back simultaneously.

But the the bitch punch, the punch that signals total domination... When one of the fighters is already on his way to the floor, or perhaps attempting to duck a blow, and the other fires a downward shot to the back of his skull.

Christopher Hitchens just bitch punched Michael Moore (http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/).

Perhaps vaguely aware that his movie so completely lacks gravitas, Moore concludes with a sonorous reading of some words from George Orwell. The words are taken from 1984 and consist of a third-person analysis of a hypothetical, endless, and contrived war between three superpowers. The clear intention, as clumsily excerpted like this (...) is to suggest that there is no moral distinction between the United States, the Taliban, and the Baath Party and that the war against jihad is about nothing. If Moore had studied a bit more, or at all, he could have read Orwell really saying, and in his own voice, the following:


The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States …

And that's just from Orwell's Notes on Nationalism in May 1945. A short word of advice: In general, it's highly unwise to quote Orwell if you are already way out of your depth on the question of moral equivalence. It's also incautious to remind people of Orwell if you are engaged in a sophomoric celluloid rewriting of recent history.

If Michael Moore had had his way, Slobodan Milosevic would still be the big man in a starved and tyrannical Serbia. Bosnia and Kosovo would have been cleansed and annexed. If Michael Moore had been listened to, Afghanistan would still be under Taliban rule, and Kuwait would have remained part of Iraq. And Iraq itself would still be the personal property of a psychopathic crime family, bargaining covertly with the slave state of North Korea for WMD. You might hope that a retrospective awareness of this kind would induce a little modesty. To the contrary, it is employed to pump air into one of the great sagging blimps of our sorry, mediocre, celeb-rotten culture.

[RawAlex]

Buff, talk about typical debate club bullshit.

if someone is against the specific actions taken by bush, then they have to be "for the bad guy". Not liking Bush's personal war on Saddam doesn't mean we were all going to go over and give him a hug and tell him how nice of a dictator he is.

It's stupid.

When you want to talk about re-writing history, let's talk about Chenney still talking about how Saddam and BinLadin were best buddies and they were both working together to get the US. Let's talk about how the Bush administration has managed to make the US public believe that the war in Iraq is as a result of the 9/11 attacks, that Saddam is somehow personally responsible. Let's talk about how the whole WMD thing just sort of disappeared into the wind... and how suddenly that wasn't the justification for war.

No movie in the world can be as bad as the reality that is Bushworld.

Alex

[Winetalk.com]

Buff,
there is not enough "256 shades of grey" in either Moore or his opponents.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Jun 22 2004, 09:04 AM
Buff, talk about typical debate club bullshit.

if someone is against the specific actions taken by bush, then they have to be "for the bad guy". Not liking Bush's personal war on Saddam doesn't mean we were all going to go over and give him a hug and tell him how nice of a dictator he is.

It's stupid.

When you want to talk about re-writing history, let's talk about Chenney still talking about how Saddam and BinLadin were best buddies and they were both working together to get the US. Let's talk about how the Bush administration has managed to make the US public believe that the war in Iraq is as a result of the 9/11 attacks, that Saddam is somehow personally responsible. Let's talk about how the whole WMD thing just sort of disappeared into the wind... and how suddenly that wasn't the justification for war.

No movie in the world can be as bad as the reality that is Bushworld.

Alex
Alkex,
your zest for "Paint me anti-Bush" is lacking those "256 shades of grey": either.

One will NEVER become an analytical mind using only black and white colors.

Looking at two of you squabling gives me more appreciation for my own brain.

[Buff]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Jun 22 2004, 08:04 AM
Buff, talk about typical debate club bullshit.

if someone is against the specific actions taken by bush, then they have to be "for the bad guy". Not liking Bush's personal war on Saddam doesn't mean we were all going to go over and give him a hug and tell him how nice of a dictator he is.

It's stupid.

When you want to talk about re-writing history, let's talk about Chenney still talking about how Saddam and BinLadin were best buddies and they were both working together to get the US. Let's talk about how the Bush administration has managed to make the US public believe that the war in Iraq is as a result of the 9/11 attacks, that Saddam is somehow personally responsible. Let's talk about how the whole WMD thing just sort of disappeared into the wind... and how suddenly that wasn't the justification for war.

No movie in the world can be as bad as the reality that is Bushworld.

Alex
Did You see the movie or read the rest of what Hitchens wrote? Obviously not. See, you're stupid, because that's exactly what Moore does, you idiot!

We are introduced to Iraq, "a sovereign nation." (In fact, Iraq's "sovereignty" was heavily qualified by international sanctions, however questionable, which reflected its noncompliance with important U.N. resolutions.) In this peaceable kingdom, according to Moore's flabbergasting choice of film shots, children are flying little kites, shoppers are smiling in the sunshine, and the gentle rhythms of life are undisturbed. Then—wham! From the night sky come the terror weapons of American imperialism. Watching the clips Moore uses, and recalling them well, I can recognize various Saddam palaces and military and police centers getting the treatment. But these sites are not identified as such. In fact, I don't think Al Jazeera would, on a bad day, have transmitted anything so utterly propagandistic. You would also be led to think that the term "civilian casualty" had not even been in the Iraqi vocabulary until March 2003.

Face it, Alex, many of the people who are on YOUR side DO think Hussein is the good guy and Bush is the bad guy.

[Winetalk.com]

you are BOTH idiots, and remain so,
'til you understand ONE day that there are no good guys, there are no bad guys,
there are ONLY
good guys who do the bad deeds
and
bad guys who do the good deeds.

The world in humanity is NOT black and white,
regardless of your abilities ONLY use those 2 colors.

[RawAlex]

Buff, "my side?" heh? I don't have people on my side. Unlike y'all down there, we are actually allowed to have more than 2 choices. It ain't Donkey or Elephant... we have a whole zoo to work from.

Serge, my point exactly - there are way more than two colors. The world according to Bush is only one of those colors, yet there are many on this board that think the man should be made a saint, he can do no wrong, and is always correct. There is so much grey that cannot even be covered here.

Just can't leave Buff to post his one sided hatchet jobs without putting something back. What is funnier is that Buff actually buys into this stuff.

Buff: Hint, you sound exactly like the "anti-Meni". How special!

Alex



Last edited by RawAlex at Jun 22 2004, 09:22 AM

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Jun 22 2004, 09:04 AM
When you want to talk about re-writing history, let's talk about Chenney still talking about how Saddam and BinLadin were best buddies and they were both working together to get the US. Let's talk about how the Bush administration has managed to make the US public believe that the war in Iraq is as a result of the 9/11 attacks, that Saddam is somehow personally responsible. Let's talk about how the whole WMD thing just sort of disappeared into the wind... and how suddenly that wasn't the justification for war.
Are you saying that the US intelligence community didn't really believe that Iraq had WMD's? Are you saying that 9-11 didn't legitimately increase the concern within the United States defense establishment that WMDs in the hands of state actors such as Saddam were a clear and present danger to the United States? On what do you base that?

What were Bush's reasons for going to war? Not just "WMDs". Not just "9-11". Bush didn't concoct WMD intelligence. It was there before he even took office. The belief was prevalent among many in the highest echelons of the US intelligence services that Saddam had WMDs going well back into the 1990s.

These are the reasons given in the ultimatum to Saddam in the order that they appear.

1. Bad faith and violation of 12 years of UN resolutions
2. WMD intelligence
3. history of Saddam's actions in the Middle East
4. harboring and supporting terrorists including Al Qaeda
5. Danger that Iraq could continue to support terrorists elevating to WMDs.

Why do you not believe that he and many others didn't honestly believed these things? The evidence for an al Qaeda/Iraq connection may be weak but it is there. It certainly leads some people to believe there is one (not me). Why not Tenet? Why not Bush? Why not Clinton or Kerry?

What indication, if any, did Bush give before 9-11 that he was anything but an isolationist? Prior to 9-11, Bush was accused of being isolationist and creating a "Fortress America". What changed him?



Last edited by Colin at Jun 22 2004, 09:30 AM

[Buff]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 08:15 AM
you are BOTH idiots, and remain so,
'til you understand ONE day that there are no good guys, there are no bad guys,
there are ONLY
good guys who do the bad deeds
and
bad guys who do the good deeds.

The world in humanity is NOT black and white,
regardless of your abilities ONLY use those 2 colors.
I'd like to read your essay on the great guy Lenin was.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Buff+Jun 22 2004, 09:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Buff @ Jun 22 2004, 09:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 08:15 AM
you are BOTH idiots, and remain so,
'til you understand ONE day that there are no good guys, there are no bad guys,
there are ONLY
good guys who do the bad deeds
and
bad guys who do the good deeds.

The world in humanity is NOT black and white,
regardless of your abilities ONLY use those 2 colors.
I'd like to read your essay on the great guy Lenin was.[/b][/quote]
He made the trains run on time!!

Wait, He could not even do that!

:D

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Buff+Jun 22 2004, 09:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Buff @ Jun 22 2004, 09:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 08:15 AM
you are BOTH idiots, and remain so,
'til you understand ONE day that there are no good guys, there are no bad guys,
there are ONLY
good guys who do the bad deeds
and
bad guys who do the good deeds.

The world in humanity is NOT black and white,
regardless of your abilities ONLY use those 2 colors.
I'd like to read your essay on the great guy Lenin was.[/b][/quote]
huh? are you depressed or just unstable today?

[chodadog]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Jun 22 2004, 06:04 AM
Buff, talk about typical debate club bullshit.

if someone is against the specific actions taken by bush, then they have to be "for the bad guy". Not liking Bush's personal war on Saddam doesn't mean we were all going to go over and give him a hug and tell him how nice of a dictator he is.

It's stupid.

When you want to talk about re-writing history, let's talk about Chenney still talking about how Saddam and BinLadin were best buddies and they were both working together to get the US. Let's talk about how the Bush administration has managed to make the US public believe that the war in Iraq is as a result of the 9/11 attacks, that Saddam is somehow personally responsible. Let's talk about how the whole WMD thing just sort of disappeared into the wind... and how suddenly that wasn't the justification for war.

No movie in the world can be as bad as the reality that is Bushworld.

Alex
What's any of that got to do with the points the guy made about Moore's film?

What i find most amusing about Moore is that there really are quite valid and sensible arguements about the war in iraq on both sides of the debate. So valid and sensible in fact, that Moore shouldn't need to distort the truth and completely ommit certain facts to make his point.

But he does, and thus, entirely lacks credibility.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Jun 22 2004, 09:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Jun 22 2004, 09:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Buff@Jun 22 2004, 09:31 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 08:15 AM
you are BOTH idiots, and remain so,
'til you understand ONE day that there are no good guys, there are no bad guys,
there are ONLY
good guys who do the bad deeds
and
bad guys who do the good deeds.

The world in humanity is NOT black and white,
regardless of your abilities ONLY use those 2 colors.
I'd like to read your essay on the great guy Lenin was.
He made the trains run on time!!

Wait, He could not even do that!

:D[/b][/quote]
I don't think either of you EVER read Lenin or know what he was all about.....

you can argue with the same success the works of Hammurabi, Chai kai Shek or Navuhadonossor.

[Buff]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Jun 22 2004, 08:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Jun 22 2004, 08:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Mike AI@Jun 22 2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by -Buff@Jun 22 2004, 09:31 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 08:15 AM
you are BOTH idiots, and remain so,
'til you understand ONE day that there are no good guys, there are no bad guys,
there are ONLY
good guys who do the bad deeds
and
bad guys who do the good deeds.

The world in humanity is NOT black and white,
regardless of your abilities ONLY use those 2 colors.
I'd like to read your essay on the great guy Lenin was.
He made the trains run on time!!

Wait, He could not even do that!

:D
I don't think either of you EVER read Lenin or know what he was all about.....

you can argue with the same success the works of Hammurabi, Chai kai Shek or Navuhadonossor.[/b][/quote]
I know the Cossacks are huge fans of Lenin, the "good guy who does bad things" as you put it. He only murdered about 80% of them (which came out to about 300,000, right?) in Ukraine and southern Russia. De-Cossackization, I believe it was called.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by chodadog@Jun 22 2004, 09:39 AM
there really are quite valid and sensible arguements about the war in iraq on both sides of the debate.
That's exactly what I think. Though right now I lean a little to the side of "that was a bad idea" it remains to be seen. If consensual government can take root in the Middle East there may be new hope that a currently lost civilization will join the ranks of the modern.

The US will be searching for a policy which reduces and maybe even ends international terrorism. There will be successes. There will be setbacks. There will be catastrophes. There will be moments of lost faith and other moments of great resolution. The very existence of US administrations will be bet on these policies - so great is the change which has effected our perception of the world. These policies will - as was true in the Cold War - mutate and bend according to what is learned.

Iraq is one of the greatest experiments in the history of politics. I hope western civilization wins.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Buff+Jun 22 2004, 09:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Buff @ Jun 22 2004, 09:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by -Mike AI@Jun 22 2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by -Buff@Jun 22 2004, 09:31 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 08:15 AM
you are BOTH idiots, and remain so,
'til you understand ONE day that there are no good guys, there are no bad guys,
there are ONLY
good guys who do the bad deeds
and
bad guys who do the good deeds.

The world in humanity is NOT black and white,
regardless of your abilities ONLY use those 2 colors.
I'd like to read your essay on the great guy Lenin was.
He made the trains run on time!!

Wait, He could not even do that!

:D
I don't think either of you EVER read Lenin or know what he was all about.....

you can argue with the same success the works of Hammurabi, Chai kai Shek or Navuhadonossor.
I know the Cossacks are huge fans of Lenin, the "good guy who does bad things" as you put it. He only murdered about 80% of them (which came out to about 300,000, right?) in Ukraine and southern Russia. De-Cossackization, I believe it was called.[/b][/quote]
1) it was done by Stalin, not Lenin

2) Tsar, who was replaced by Lenin was NOT better alternative to Russia,
have you ever heard of "pogroms"? Stolypin reforms, displacing millions of peasants?

I bet you have no clue what I am talking about....ignorance is bliss.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Colin@Jun 22 2004, 09:50 AM


Iraq is one of the greatest experiments in the history of politics. I hope western civilization wins.
can YOU define what would be WIN?

definition, please.

The last political debate in my family was WHO won the second world war,
Russians or German and Japanese?

I argued with my father against my wife that ultimatelly Germans and Japanese WON and USSR lost....

[Vick]

Gray is my favorite color
I felt so symbolic yesterday
If I knew Picasso
I would buy myself a gray guitar and play

[Nickatilynx]

shades of grey...

shit thats what I do ! ;-)))))

In order to understand the reasons for Bush's actions we would need to know all the information available.

We will never know all the information.

[Buff]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Jun 22 2004, 08:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Jun 22 2004, 08:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Buff@Jun 22 2004, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by -Mike AI@Jun 22 2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by -Buff@Jun 22 2004, 09:31 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 08:15 AM
you are BOTH idiots, and remain so,
'til you understand ONE day that there are no good guys, there are no bad guys,
there are ONLY
good guys who do the bad deeds
and
bad guys who do the good deeds.

The world in humanity is NOT black and white,
regardless of your abilities ONLY use those 2 colors.
I'd like to read your essay on the great guy Lenin was.
He made the trains run on time!!

Wait, He could not even do that!

:D
I don't think either of you EVER read Lenin or know what he was all about.....

you can argue with the same success the works of Hammurabi, Chai kai Shek or Navuhadonossor.
I know the Cossacks are huge fans of Lenin, the "good guy who does bad things" as you put it. He only murdered about 80% of them (which came out to about 300,000, right?) in Ukraine and southern Russia. De-Cossackization, I believe it was called.
1) it was done by Stalin, not Lenin

2) Tsar, who was replaced by Lenin was NOT better alternative to Russia,
have you ever heard of "pogroms"? Stolypin reforms, displacing millions of peasants?

I bet you have no clue what I am talking about....ignorance is bliss.[/b][/quote]
The murdering of the cossacks was done by Lenin.

The de-Kulakization program was in the 1930s. Stalin modeled this campaign on Lenin's De-Cossackization program. Here Stalin introduced the innovation of the concentration camp, where prisoners were worked or starved to death. In the three year period of 1930 to 1932, Stalin (with the assistance of his Ukranian governor, Nikita Sergeievich Kruschev) oversaw the liquidation of 6 million people in Russia and Ukraine, through a combination of mass starvation, forced migration, and concentration camps where the goal was to, literally, work the prisoners to death.

I have the Black Book of Communism and Death by Government, two wonderful books describing in detail all of the great works by good men who did bad things.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Jun 22 2004, 10:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Jun 22 2004, 10:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Colin@Jun 22 2004, 09:50 AM


Iraq is one of the greatest experiments in the history of politics. I hope western civilization wins.
can YOU define what would be WIN?

definition, please.

The last political debate in my family was WHO won the second world war,
Russians or German and Japanese?

I argued with my father against my wife that ultimatelly Germans and Japanese WON and USSR lost....[/b][/quote]
If Iraq becomes as stable of a democracy as Turkey, if a consensual government smack in the middle of the Middle East inspires the growing democracy movements in the Middle East, if the followers of Qutb and their ilk identify with political systems which we currently call "Western" we may win our security. These are tall orders. No one should kid themselves. I think the alternative policies to date haven't shown much in the way of success.

[Nickatilynx]

Originally posted by Buff+Jun 22 2004, 07:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Buff @ Jun 22 2004, 07:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by -Buff@Jun 22 2004, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by -Mike AI@Jun 22 2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by -Buff@Jun 22 2004, 09:31 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 08:15 AM
you are BOTH idiots, and remain so,
'til you understand ONE day that there are no good guys, there are no bad guys,
there are ONLY
good guys who do the bad deeds
and
bad guys who do the good deeds.

The world in humanity is NOT black and white,
regardless of your abilities ONLY use those 2 colors.
I'd like to read your essay on the great guy Lenin was.
He made the trains run on time!!

Wait, He could not even do that!

:D
I don't think either of you EVER read Lenin or know what he was all about.....

you can argue with the same success the works of Hammurabi, Chai kai Shek or Navuhadonossor.
I know the Cossacks are huge fans of Lenin, the "good guy who does bad things" as you put it. He only murdered about 80% of them (which came out to about 300,000, right?) in Ukraine and southern Russia. De-Cossackization, I believe it was called.
1) it was done by Stalin, not Lenin

2) Tsar, who was replaced by Lenin was NOT better alternative to Russia,
have you ever heard of "pogroms"? Stolypin reforms, displacing millions of peasants?

I bet you have no clue what I am talking about....ignorance is bliss.
The murdering of the cossacks was done by Lenin.

The de-Kulakization program was in the 1930s. Stalin modeled this campaign on Lenin's De-Cossackization program. Here Stalin introduced the innovation of the concentration camp, where prisoners were worked or starved to death. In the three year period of 1930 to 1932, Stalin (with the assistance of his Ukranian governor, Nikita Sergeievich Kruschev) oversaw the liquidation of 6 million people in Russia and Ukraine, through a combination of mass starvation, forced migration, and concentration camps where the goal was to, literally, work the prisoners to death.

I have the Black Book of Communism and Death by Government, two wonderful books describing in detail all of the great works by good men who did bad things.[/b][/quote]
Nice googling work , buff!!!!!!

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jun 22 2004, 10:06 AM
In order to understand the reasons for Bush's actions we would need to know all the information available.

We will never know all the information.
So true. Even today, for example, people debate why Truman decided to drop the bomb.

I know that I myself usually have multiple reasons for doing something and not just one - at least in spirit a mental checklist of sorts. I assume other people do the same. It would only make sense that there were pro and con factors in addition to various influences on such a momentous decision.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jun 22 2004, 10:13 AM
Nice googling work , buff!!!!!!
Memory has gone external. I used to feel smarter. Before the awesome power of google, I feel like an idiot. Anyone else feel this way?

[Nickatilynx]

Originally posted by Colin+Jun 22 2004, 07:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Jun 22 2004, 07:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Nickatilynx@Jun 22 2004, 10:13 AM
Nice googling work , buff!!!!!!
Memory has gone external. I used to feel smarter. Before the awesome power of google, I feel like an idiot. Anyone else feel this way?[/b][/quote]
My point was plagarism is a given , but at least have the common courtesy to try and disguise it!!!

;-)))))

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Buff@Jun 22 2004, 10:09 AM


I have the Black Book of Communism and Death by Government, two wonderful books describing in detail all of the great works by good men who did bad things.
I never argued your ability to read,
your ability to comprehend what you read is at question.

How do you like Stalin's assesment made by anti communist Winston Churchill?

learn from him the shades of grey, not from me.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx+Jun 22 2004, 10:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nickatilynx @ Jun 22 2004, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Colin@Jun 22 2004, 07:17 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Nickatilynx@Jun 22 2004, 10:13 AM
Nice googling work , buff!!!!!!
Memory has gone external. I used to feel smarter. Before the awesome power of google, I feel like an idiot. Anyone else feel this way?
My point was plagarism is a given , but at least have the common courtesy to try and disguise it!!!

;-)))))[/b][/quote]
My point was I feel like an idiot.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Colin+Jun 22 2004, 10:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Jun 22 2004, 10:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Nickatilynx@Jun 22 2004, 10:06 AM
In order to understand the reasons for Bush's actions we would need to know all the information available.

We will never know all the information.
So true. Even today, for example, people debate why Truman decided to drop the bomb.

I know that I myself usually have multiple reasons for doing something and not just one - at least in spirit a mental checklist of sorts. I assume other people do the same. It would only make sense that there were pro and con factors in addition to various influences on such a momentous decision.[/b][/quote]
you give to much credit to most of the people,
the majority lives in black and white world and quite comfortable with it,
shades of grey require thinking and analysis,
black and white does not,
and I see this on this board every god damn day

[PornoDoggy]

I have not seen Michael Moore's latest film.

I have never seen a Michael Moore film.

I might see a Michael Moore film if I'm really bored and it's on television.

The thing I find amusing about this whole "debate" is that some of the same people who condemn Moore for his lies and distortions have no objection to or completely deny that Bush and his minions made lots of lies and distortions to get us into the war (and vice versa).

Pull the string, the dolly talks ... :yowsa:

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx+Jun 22 2004, 10:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nickatilynx @ Jun 22 2004, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Colin@Jun 22 2004, 07:17 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Nickatilynx@Jun 22 2004, 10:13 AM
Nice googling work , buff!!!!!!
Memory has gone external. I used to feel smarter. Before the awesome power of google, I feel like an idiot. Anyone else feel this way?
My point was plagarism is a given , but at least have the common courtesy to try and disguise it!!!

;-)))))[/b][/quote]
puuhleeze,
2 references in Google,
non of the authors is Russian historian,
2 100% anti communists
http://www.google.com/search?q=Lenin's...ization+program (http://www.google.com/search?q=Lenin's+De-Cossackization+program)
which makes me HIGHLY suspicious of the accuracy of this information.....unless you, buff, beleive EVERYTHING you read on the internet.

I say the dis-information not confirmed by ANYBODY besides those 2 authors with anti-communist agenda, is BULLSHIT and falsification of history

[Nickatilynx]

the majority lives in black and white world and quite comfortable with it

Exactly!!!

It gives comfort. The black and white world is a wonderful place to watch the world from , everything is crystal clear , and simple.

Its a wonderful reassuring place.

But G-d help you when you take off the blinkers and realise the shading , you can never go back to seeing only in black and white , you have gained the blessed knowledge of true human nature , and the curse that comes along with that knowledge.

but I digress...

;-))


hmmmm hope this isn't the absinthe kicking in ;-))

[Nickatilynx]

I say the dis-information not confirmed by ANYBODY besides those 2 authors with anti-communist agenda, is BULLSHIT and falsification of history

Would you please stop giving YOUR opinions!!!!

It is better to regurgitate the opinions of others that have a hook that you find comfortable living with.

jeeez us!

;-)))

[TheEnforcer]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 09:15 AM
you are BOTH idiots, and remain so,
'til you understand ONE day that there are no good guys, there are no bad guys,
there are ONLY
good guys who do the bad deeds
and
bad guys who do the good deeds.

The world in humanity is NOT black and white,
regardless of your abilities ONLY use those 2 colors.
if i told you he was your brother
you'd reminisce then you would go about your day
if said you oughta give him some of your water
you'd shake your canteen and walk away

and the perception taht divides you from him, is a lie
for some reason you never asked why
this is not a black white world
you can't afford to believe in your side

this is not a black and white world
to be alive i say the colors must swirl
and i believe that maybe today
we will all get to appreciate
the beauty of grey

if i told you she was your mother
would you analyze the situation and be gone?
if i said you oughta give her some of your water
your eyes would light up like the dawn

and the perception that divides you from her, is a lie
for some reason we never asked why
this is not a black white world
you can't afford to believe in your side

this is not a black and white world
to be alive i say the colors must swirl
and i believe that maybe today
we will all get to appreciate

the beauty of grey
the beauty of grey
the beauty of grey
the beauty of grey

look into your eyes
no daylight
new day now

this is not a black and white world
to be alive i say the colors must swirl
and i believe that maybe today
we will appreciate the beauty of grey

this is not a black and white world
to be alive i say the colors must swirl
and i believe that maybe today
we will all get appreciate
yes we will all get to appreciate

the beauty of grey
(repeat 8x)

[TheEnforcer]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jun 22 2004, 10:39 AM
the majority lives in black and white world and quite comfortable with it

Exactly!!!

It gives comfort. The black and white world is a wonderful place to watch the world from , everything is crystal clear , and simple.

Its a wonderful reassuring place.

But G-d help you when you take off the blinkers and realise the shading , you can never go back to seeing only in black and white , you have gained the blessed knowledge of true human nature , and the curse that comes along with that knowledge.

but I digress...

;-))


hmmmm hope this isn't the absinthe kicking in ;-))
The majority of people are idiots too.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 10:26 AM
you give to much credit to most of the people,
the majority lives in black and white world and quite comfortable with it,
shades of grey require thinking and analysis,
black and white does not,
and I see this on this board every god damn day
Analysis is exactly what the Department of Defense and National Security Council do. Major policy decisions seldom come completely out of the blue and US security considerations are debated within the National Security Council.

[RawAlex]

Colin, major policy decisions can be swayed by such things as:

- your father being used as a doormat (literally) in Iraq
- your family position in the oil industry
- the position of your key advisors and close staff in the energy business
- your desire to be a "tough president"
- your desire to make the world think like you.

I sort of like the US way: We will make you free if you like it or not.

The ultimate decision to invade or not invade IRAQ was made by one man, and there were many different things that could be read into his choice.

As for 9/11- even the commission has concluded that there are no provable links between Saddam and BinLadin, that Saddam had refused AlQaida training facilities in his country, and that before the war, there was no indications of terrorists using Iraq as a home base. That was Afghanistan, remember that country?

Linking 9/11 to Saddam is stroke of genius that allows them to write off every dead soldier as a "vicitm of the war on terror".

It is impressive.

The "little lies" of a film maker are nothing compared to the "little lies" of the current US administration, IMHO.

Alex

[Rolo]

Originally posted by Colin@Jun 22 2004, 07:25 AM
My point was I feel like an idiot.
"Even the genius asks questions"
Me Against the world / 2Pac

"I think and think for months and years. Ninety-nine times, the conclusion is false. The hundredth time I am right"
Albert Einstein

"Yes, I googled to find those quotes, but I knew where to look!"
Rolo at Oprano

:)

[Nickatilynx]

The ultimate decision to invade or not invade IRAQ was made by one man,

Probably true.
And it also possibly true that no one on this board (with the exception of springedude) could name that one man.

[DrGuile]

hmmm,

Sergei,
These posts are probably the closest to the way I think you've ever made...

were you drunk or sober as you made these posts? I want to know in which states we are the most alike ;)



(cue sergei's reponse on how we are in no way alike)



Last edited by DrGuile at Jun 22 2004, 01:36 PM

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by DrGuile@Jun 22 2004, 01:36 PM
hmmm,

Sergei,
These posts are probably the closest to the way I think you've ever made...

were you drunk or sober as you made these posts? I want to know in which states we are the most alike ;)



(cue sergei's reponse on how we are in no way alike)
DrGuille,
join GFYers
;_))

http://www.FuckYouLensman.com/showthread.p...threadid=316188 (http://www.FuckYouLensman.com/showthread.php?s=7d24865a34d5b2a4ba73e6e31853d536&threadid=316188)

Who's cock?
You do not have permission to vote on this poll.
I would rather suck Lensman's cock 2 25.00%
I would rather suck Serge's cock 6 75.00%

[DrGuile]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 01:38 PM
DrGuille,
join GFYers
;_))

http://www.FuckYouLensman.com/showthread.p...threadid=316188 (http://www.FuckYouLensman.com/showthread.php?s=7d24865a34d5b2a4ba73e6e31853d536&threadid=316188)

Who's cock?
You do not have permission to vote on this poll.
I would rather suck Lensman's cock 2 25.00%
I would rather suck Serge's cock 6 75.00%
drunk it is...

[SykkBoy]

who's more predictable?
Moore's supporters or his detractors?
hard to tell some days....

I'll be buying my ticket this weekend and watching the movie and will probably be entertained for 90 minutes. That's all I ask, and hey, it might even stir up some conversation and debate. That's never a bad thing.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by DrGuile+Jun 22 2004, 01:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DrGuile @ Jun 22 2004, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Serge_Oprano@Jun 22 2004, 01:38 PM
DrGuille,
join GFYers
;_))

http://www.FuckYouLensman.com/showthread.p...threadid=316188 (http://www.FuckYouLensman.com/showthread.php?threadid=316188)

Who's cock?
You do not have permission to vote on this poll.
I would rather suck Lensman's cock 2 25.00%
I would rather suck Serge's cock 6 75.00%
drunk it is... [/b][/quote]
drunk?
FYI,
since the begining of April,
I shoot myself with LSD, 3-5 times a day,
you have a problem with that?

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Jun 22 2004, 12:20 PM
Colin, major policy decisions can be swayed by such things as:

- your father being used as a doormat (literally) in Iraq
- your family position in the oil industry
- the position of your key advisors and close staff in the energy business
- your desire to be a "tough president"
- your desire to make the world think like you.

I sort of like the US way: We will make you free if you like it or not.

The ultimate decision to invade or not invade IRAQ was made by one man, and there were many different things that could be read into his choice.

As for 9/11- even the commission has concluded that there are no provable links between Saddam and BinLadin, that Saddam had refused AlQaida training facilities in his country, and that before the war, there was no indications of terrorists using Iraq as a home base. That was Afghanistan, remember that country?

Linking 9/11 to Saddam is stroke of genius that allows them to write off every dead soldier as a "vicitm of the war on terror".

It is impressive.

The "little lies" of a film maker are nothing compared to the "little lies" of the current US administration, IMHO.

Alex
I think they are more likely along the lines of ...

What should our post Cold War policy transform into given that 9-11 happened?

What could be worse than 9-11 and what can we do to prevent those possibilities?

Should we continue and even escalate the pre-emptive strikes policy used in the 1990s?

How should we deal with "rogue regimes" in light of 9-11?

Given the above, what kind of response to 9-11 are we prepared with at this point? (Until that date, not coincidentally, the US military had prepared largely for land wars intending to overthrow and replace regimes).

You know, the kind of things everyone - including us citizens - with an interest in foreign policy has been asking themselves since that fateful day.

And yes, in the end, one man made the final decision but there were literally hundreds who had influence and a voice, including National Defense Council members and the Department of Defense. The question was not "who has responsibility" but rather "how did that decision come about"?

As far as "freedom", maybe it's an illusion like that preceding World War I
but it sure looks like major powers war is over. Why? Maybe it's the newest round of globalization - economies integrated into a functioning whole. If so, Middle East Democracies - if they indeed can be created by the sword - may be the solution to Middle Eastern violence. Side note: this would also seem to indicate that a war between the US and China is highly unlikely.

[Almighty Colin]

-- 2x post removed --

[Winetalk.com]

now u have double post

[sarettah]

Bitch Punch:

Use a large container (preferably 55 gallon or more)
Add 20 gallons of Hawaiian Punch (or any other sweet flavored concoction of your choice)

Add:

10 gallons Everclear
1 gallon Rum (151 proof preferred)
1 gallon Absinthe
1 gallon Vodka (real stuff, not the wimpy flavored stuff)

2 pounds of assorted citrus (lemons, limes , oranges)

Stir well.

Add 2 to 3 Bitches

Agitate aggresively




Makes for one hell of a party :yowsa:

[DrGuile]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Jun 23 2004, 03:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Jun 23 2004, 03:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-DrGuile@Jun 22 2004, 01:40 PM

drunk it is...
drunk?
FYI,
since the begining of April,
I shoot myself with LSD, 3-5 times a day,
you have a problem with that? [/b][/quote]
That's ok, I do not judge you.

Because, like my avatar now says, I love everyone...


Let's be friends




:agrin:



(despite all this non-sense, I still am a big believer in the shades of gray philosophy and I have been since I can remember.)

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by DrGuile@Jun 23 2004, 08:43 AM




(despite all this non-sense, I still am a big believer in the shades of gray philosophy and I have been since I can remember.)
this is a sure sign of maturity and multi-dimensional mind

[RawAlex]

Colin, isn't North Korea a "rogue regime" as well? they have developed and threatened to use nuclear weapons directly on a US ally. Isn't that an issue?

Isn't Iran a "rogue regime"? They are also actively developing nuclear weapons, have recently taken a number of brits hostage (arrested, technicality!), and threaten to destable the entire middle east even more than it already is?

Only Iraq got "treatment A"... everyone else is getting "let's talk".

Why?

Alex

[grimm]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Jun 22 2004, 06:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Jun 22 2004, 06:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RawAlex@Jun 22 2004, 09:04 AM
Buff, talk about typical debate club bullshit.

if someone is against the specific actions taken by bush, then they have to be "for the bad guy". Not liking Bush's personal war on Saddam doesn't mean we were all going to go over and give him a hug and tell him how nice of a dictator he is.

It's stupid.

When you want to talk about re-writing history, let's talk about Chenney still talking about how Saddam and BinLadin were best buddies and they were both working together to get the US. Let's talk about how the Bush administration has managed to make the US public believe that the war in Iraq is as a result of the 9/11 attacks, that Saddam is somehow personally responsible. Let's talk about how the whole WMD thing just sort of disappeared into the wind... and how suddenly that wasn't the justification for war.

No movie in the world can be as bad as the reality that is Bushworld.

Alex
Alkex,
your zest for "Paint me anti-Bush" is lacking those "256 shades of grey": either.

One will NEVER become an analytical mind using only black and white colors.

Looking at two of you squabling gives me more appreciation for my own brain. [/b][/quote]
someone finally appreciates you for your brain, and not just the package it omes in. and it only took 30 something years;) congratulations:)

[grimm]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Jun 23 2004, 06:58 AM
Colin, isn't North Korea a "rogue regime" as well? they have developed and threatened to use nuclear weapons directly on a US ally. Isn't that an issue?

Isn't Iran a "rogue regime"? They are also actively developing nuclear weapons, have recently taken a number of brits hostage (arrested, technicality!), and threaten to destable the entire middle east even more than it already is?

Only Iraq got "treatment A"... everyone else is getting "let's talk".

Why?

Alex
heres a spinoff,

how is Korea going to reat to its beheading, from what i have been reading there is an insurgency of people in that country that are very angry at their government for not providing protections.


Will there be retaliations?


Matt