history buffs, when did Vietnam War started?

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1952? 1956? 1959? 1965?

[JR]

first date that came to mind was 54'

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Originally posted by JR@Jun 7 2004, 07:43 PM
first date that came to mind was 54'
JR,
you haven't answered my question

[slavdogg]

64-65 if using your dates only
it was after the gulf of tonkin Resolution in 64

But of course there were some American forces there prior to those days in South Viet Nam "helping" the vietnamese

[JR]

never?

[Winetalk.com]

Slav, I threw dates out of the blue....I REALLY don't know....

[Buff]

It started when MacArthur was not allowed to roll into Red China and put an end to communism in the East once and for all.

[XXXPhoto]

Based on your date bait, not sure what you are fishing for Serge...

Vietnam was issue before Truman made Hiroshima and Nagasaki glass in '45. Ongoing French clusterfuck from the end of WWII and through Korean War with ever increasing involvement via monetary aid, training and occupation.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Buff@Jun 7 2004, 08:27 PM
It started when MacArthur was not allowed to roll into Red China and put an end to communism in the East once and for all.
is that the same McArtur who "put the end of communism in Korea"?

Buff,
North Korea is a myth!

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by XXXPhoto@Jun 7 2004, 08:28 PM
Based on your date bait, not sure what you are fishing for Serge...

Vietnam was issue before Truman made Hiroshima and Nagasaki glass in '45. Ongoing French clusterfuck from the end of WWII and through Korean War with ever increasing involvement via monetary aid, training and occupation.
I am not baiting...can you imagine that I REALLY DON'T KNOW??????

[Buff]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Jun 7 2004, 07:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Jun 7 2004, 07:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Buff@Jun 7 2004, 08:27 PM
It started when MacArthur was not allowed to roll into Red China and put an end to communism in the East once and for all.
is that the same McArtur who "put the end of communism in Korea"?

Buff,
North Korea is a myth![/b][/quote]
That's what I'm talking about, S. He wanted to win that war by going into China and putting an end to the whole problem once and for all. That's when they fired him. You know that, right? The Chinese were sending troops and equipment into North Korea and Mac wanted to fight China. That's what I was talking about.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Buff+Jun 7 2004, 08:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Buff @ Jun 7 2004, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Jun 7 2004, 07:29 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Buff@Jun 7 2004, 08:27 PM
It started when MacArthur was not allowed to roll into Red China and put an end to communism in the East once and for all.
is that the same McArtur who "put the end of communism in Korea"?

Buff,
North Korea is a myth!
That's what I'm talking about, S. He wanted to win that war by going into China and putting an end to the whole problem once and for all. That's when they fired him. You know that, right? The Chinese were sending troops and equipment into North Korea and Mac wanted to fight China. That's what I was talking about.[/b][/quote]
Buff,
he couldn't defeat Chinese in Korea, what makes you beleive he would do it on THEIR home turf?

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I found something which sheds more light on the subject:

http://www.nationalvnwarmuseum.org/chronology.html

[Winetalk.com]

seems like the war mogering DEMOCRATS were responcible for US envolvement DEEP into the conflict.

[XXXPhoto]

Serge,

This is very nutshell but if you are interested in starting point for more research into events and interactions then will give you a launchpad for topics to dig into...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/time/.../timeline1.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/time/timeline1.html)

Redneck cliff notes version...
Japan fucks Vietnam.
We fuck Japan.
Japan withdraws from Vietnam and French make play for it.
This pisses off the Chineese and the Vietminh.
French continue to do what French do best, pissing everyone off and getting asses kicked.
US and Soviets decide to turn it into a proxy fight as French scamper away to build relations with some Arab nations.

These events span a good 30+ years 45-75...

[PornoDoggy]

McArthur was not fired for wanting to fight the Chinese. He was entitled to want to fight anybody he wanted to.

McArthur was fired for forgetting who the Commander in Chief was while angling to make a run for the job himself. McArthur was fired for attempting to formulate policy on the battlefield, and for a policy that probably would NOT have defeated the Chinese (may have moved the standoff to a point different from the 37th parallel, though), but probably WOULD have killed a million or so Americans and moved the Berlin Wall to the beaches of Normady.

I personally think Truman should have shot the cocksucker, just like Nixon should have shot the JCS Chairman caught spying on him.

Remember the whole "civilian control of the military" thing? (I didn't say you had to like it ... just acknowledge that it is the system we live under).

As far as the Vietnam war goes ... , I think the start of the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam was should INCLUDE the period when we fought the North Vietnamese with French proxies (we paid for it ... we ought to claim it).

Whole lotta folks got us into that clusterfuck ... liberals and conservatives, Catholics, etc. In the early days it was the opinion of many on the right who thought it was a dumb thing to do; they only came to support the war once U.S. force was committted.

BTW, XXXPhoto - the French had been fucking Vietnam for 300-400 years before the Japanese came in; so when the Japanese left, it was an attempt to keep it. We didn't do a hell of a lot better than the French, now, did we? Remember, too, that the French actually understood that the nature of the war was not "Communism" vs "freedom", but imperialism vs. nationalism. We never did quite get that.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Jun 7 2004, 09:29 PM

[Vick]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Jun 7 2004, 09:27 PM
I personally think Truman should have shot the cocksucker, just like Nixon should have shot the JCS Chairman caught spying on him.
PD - it tickles the hell out of me to read you posting that

:lol:

[PornoDoggy]

If you mean the use of "cocksucker", I seem to be suffering from "Deadwood" syndrome on Mondays. :)

If you are referring to my thinking that Nixon should have shot Moorer, or that Truman should have shot McArthur, or that North and Poindexter should just now be eligible for parole from Leavanworth - I'm damned serious.

Frankly, I've always thought that Iran-Contra was a more serious offense than Watergate; and I think the so-called Radford Affair, where the JCS were caught spying on the White House, was even more serious than either of them.

[gilgy]

Which Viet Nam War? It kind of like saying when did the European war start?

[Vick]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Jun 7 2004, 09:49 PM
If you mean the use of "cocksucker", I seem to be suffering from "Deadwood" syndrome on Mondays. :)

If you are referring to my thinking that Nixon should have shot Moorer, or that Truman should have shot McArthur, or that North and Poindexter should just now be eligible for parole from Leavanworth - I'm damned serious.

Frankly, I've always thought that Iran-Contra was a more serious offense than Watergate; and I think the so-called Radford Affair, where the JCS were caught spying on the White House, was even more serious than either of them.
Just reading you posting Nixon should have shot anyone tickles me

and I agree about JCS/Thomas Moorer but and it makes me sick to say this - with Nixon being the type of president and man he was how would it have looked if that came out then?
Much less how the military would have looked then when they were already under attack at home - and I know that doesn't excuse a thing

and Watergate was about the fucking stupidest crime ever committed



as for when the Vietnam war started with regards to American involvement
JR has a good point with 1954, when aid started from America to Vietnam
also a point can be made for 1959 when the first American casualties occur
as well as 1965 as the first American combat soldiers arrive

[JR]

was war declared in vietnam?

[XXXPhoto]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Jun 7 2004, 06:27 PM
Remember, too, that the French actually understood that the nature of the war was not "Communism" vs "freedom", but imperialism vs. nationalism. We never did quite get that.
PD,

I never claimed US didn't step all over it's collective dick, was just trying to show examples of events that occured prior to the dates Serge listed.

Yes the French started fucking with area in 1500s and 'created' Indochina from 1850s-1900 there abouts... This doesn't preclude Japan from having diddled the area prior to that... (or along with the French during that timeframe)... Much more is written on Korea-Japan history but if you've good source for the region would be happy to read it...

[sarettah]

Originally posted by JR@Jun 7 2004, 10:23 PM
was war declared in vietnam?
Nope, we stopped declaring warback at WWII...

since then they have been "police actions" and such...

[PornoDoggy]

Got the library dismantled while we paint the room but Vietnam: A History by Stanley Karnow is the first one that comes to mind, and it's pretty good for the period up to the U.S. war. His coverage of the U.S. war has been criticized, particularly by some on the right, but it's not too bad. I don't know if later editions have been updated with information that may not have been available to him when he wrote it in the 70s.

[Buff]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Jun 7 2004, 07:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Jun 7 2004, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Buff@Jun 7 2004, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Jun 7 2004, 07:29 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Buff@Jun 7 2004, 08:27 PM
It started when MacArthur was not allowed to roll into Red China and put an end to communism in the East once and for all.
is that the same McArtur who "put the end of communism in Korea"?

Buff,
North Korea is a myth!
That's what I'm talking about, S. He wanted to win that war by going into China and putting an end to the whole problem once and for all. That's when they fired him. You know that, right? The Chinese were sending troops and equipment into North Korea and Mac wanted to fight China. That's what I was talking about.
Buff,
he couldn't defeat Chinese in Korea, what makes you beleive he would do it on THEIR home turf?[/b][/quote]
He could have beaten them. And we had nukes and they didn't.

[XXXPhoto]

Originally posted by Vick@Jun 7 2004, 07:13 PM
... also a point can be made for 1959 when the first American casualties occur...
Vick,

Don't forget Dewey... Just cause it wasn't 'official' and him and some others aren't on the Wall don't mean they didn't die from US involvement...

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/apdewey.htm

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Vick@Jun 7 2004, 10:13 PM
Just reading you posting Nixon should have shot anyone tickles me

and I agree about JCS/Thomas Moorer but and it makes me sick to say this - with Nixon being the type of president and man he was how would it have looked if that came out then?
Much less how the military would have looked then when they were already under attack at home - and I know that doesn't excuse a thing

and Watergate was about the fucking stupidest crime ever committed



as for when the Vietnam war started with regards to American involvement
JR has a good point with 1954, when aid started from America to Vietnam
also a point can be made for 1959 when the first American casualties occur
as well as 1965 as the first American combat soldiers arrive
Well, now, I think you know that I believe they should have shot the cocksucker Nixon too ... but he was the President of the United States. Any swinging dick in uniform who was spying on him should have also been shot. Agnew should have been muzzled, then shot. Mitchell should have been shot. Haldeman and Erlicman and Dean (oh my!) should have been shot. Butterfield should have been given a medal - then shot.

Kissinger, however ... he should be sent to Chile, or maybe Timor. Let those cocksuckers shoot him.

[Vick]

Good point XXXPhoto (damn history buffs)


PD - what are you going to shoot Nixon for? he he he

I'll agree to shooting Martha Mitchell, would have saved a lot of trouble. At the very least a muzzle and tape up her hands. While you're at it kick John Mitchell in the balls, I believe you would find them in Martha's purse

:blink: :yowsa:



Keep going PD - you're on a roll now -
damn execution squad - after the revolution all you cocksuckers will be shot

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Buff@Jun 7 2004, 10:43 PM
He could have beaten them. And we had nukes and they didn't.
Uhhh ... at what cost could he have beaten them? How many American lives would it have cost?

300,000 of them kicked his happy ass all the way down the Korean peninsula. There were a lot more waiting at home. Korea seriously weakened our defenses in Europe, and an assult on China would have probably brought us into conflict with the Soviets. They DID have nukes, and if they'd seen us going at China would have felt forced to get involved, fearing that they would have been next. The consequences for Western Europe would have been devestating, and predictable. The possibility of a nuclear attack on U.S. soil - remember, we were far more vulnerable to bombers back then - woud have to be considered.

And as much as I hate to remind you that public opinion matters in a democracy ... there was little stomach in the U.S. for that kind of war.

He was the Commander in Chief of the forces in Japan that were totally unprepared for anything more rigorous than a full-dress parade when war broke out. He disobeyed orders by pushing too close to the border, and he either had an intelligence staff that was totally inept, or he falsified intelligence reports he was sending back to Washington about the size and the presence of the Chicoms he was encountering.

I wouldn't have let the S.O.B. run a Boy Scout hike ... much less engage in a nuclear war with China.

[JoesHO]

1964

[Biggy]

The first actual battle between American and Vietnamese soldiers was documented in the Mel Gibson movie "We Were Soldiers" - that was 1964-1965ish, however there were lots of different factors that caused it.

<start conspiracy theory>

like the JFK assasination by the CIA to instate Lyndon Johnson as president who was not anti-war like Kennedy.

</start conspiracy theory>

Sources: "We Were Soldiers", "JFK" :)

[Biggy]

Originally posted by Buff+Jun 7 2004, 07:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Buff @ Jun 7 2004, 07:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Jun 7 2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by -Buff@Jun 7 2004, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Jun 7 2004, 07:29 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Buff@Jun 7 2004, 08:27 PM
It started when MacArthur was not allowed to roll into Red China and put an end to communism in the East once and for all.
is that the same McArtur who "put the end of communism in Korea"?

Buff,
North Korea is a myth!
That's what I'm talking about, S. He wanted to win that war by going into China and putting an end to the whole problem once and for all. That's when they fired him. You know that, right? The Chinese were sending troops and equipment into North Korea and Mac wanted to fight China. That's what I was talking about.
Buff,
he couldn't defeat Chinese in Korea, what makes you beleive he would do it on THEIR home turf?
He could have beaten them. And we had nukes and they didn't.[/b][/quote]
you know what its like to go to war with the most populated country.

china and russia are two countries the USA will never want to get in a war against. Fighting against a billion people doesn't sound so appealing, as for Russia - the sheer size of the land mass swallows armies and spits them out. That and the fact that guys like Serge will verbally piss all over you and make you run crying home to your mommy withing 3 sentences of speech. :agrin:

[Almighty Colin]

One of those questions that can't be completely answered to everyone's satisfaction because of the natural vagueness of definitions.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Buff+Jun 7 2004, 10:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Buff @ Jun 7 2004, 10:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Jun 7 2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by -Buff@Jun 7 2004, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Jun 7 2004, 07:29 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Buff@Jun 7 2004, 08:27 PM
It started when MacArthur was not allowed to roll into Red China and put an end to communism in the East once and for all.
is that the same McArtur who "put the end of communism in Korea"?

Buff,
North Korea is a myth!
That's what I'm talking about, S. He wanted to win that war by going into China and putting an end to the whole problem once and for all. That's when they fired him. You know that, right? The Chinese were sending troops and equipment into North Korea and Mac wanted to fight China. That's what I was talking about.
Buff,
he couldn't defeat Chinese in Korea, what makes you beleive he would do it on THEIR home turf?
He could have beaten them. And we had nukes and they didn't.[/b][/quote]
Russians had nukes, and what do you think THEIR reaction would be with nukes going at their borders?

tsk-tsk,
Soviets had better rockets in those days....

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Biggy+Jun 8 2004, 03:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Biggy @ Jun 8 2004, 03:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Buff@Jun 7 2004, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Jun 7 2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by -Buff@Jun 7 2004, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Jun 7 2004, 07:29 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Buff@Jun 7 2004, 08:27 PM
It started when MacArthur was not allowed to roll into Red China and put an end to communism in the East once and for all.
is that the same McArtur who "put the end of communism in Korea"?

Buff,
North Korea is a myth!
That's what I'm talking about, S. He wanted to win that war by going into China and putting an end to the whole problem once and for all. That's when they fired him. You know that, right? The Chinese were sending troops and equipment into North Korea and Mac wanted to fight China. That's what I was talking about.
Buff,
he couldn't defeat Chinese in Korea, what makes you beleive he would do it on THEIR home turf?
He could have beaten them. And we had nukes and they didn't.
you know what its like to go to war with the most populated country.

china and russia are two countries the USA will never want to get in a war against. Fighting against a billion people doesn't sound so appealing, as for Russia - the sheer size of the land mass swallows armies and spits them out. That and the fact that guys like Serge will verbally piss all over you and make you run crying home to your mommy withing 3 sentences of speech. :agrin:[/b][/quote]
Biggy, very keen observation, indeed
;-)))))

[Nickatilynx]

I say the war started in 1945


1945

Ho Chi Minh Creates Provisional Government: Following the surrender of Japan to Allied forces, Ho Chi Minh and his People's Congress create the National Liberation Committee of Vietnam to form a provisional government. Japan transfers all power to Ho's Vietminh.

Ho Declares Independence of Vietnam

British Forces Land in Saigon, Return Authority to French

First American Dies in Vietnam: Lt. Col. A. Peter Dewey, head of American OSS mission, was killed by Vietminh troops while driving a jeep to the airport. Reports later indicated that his death was due to a case of mistaken identity -- he had been mistaken for a Frenchman.


Google is a great thing :)