Bush is trying to save the middle east!

[Mike AI]

I was thinking last night after Bush's speech. Bush is trying to save the middle east. By going to war and confronting terrorist now in the middle east we are contributing to the future security of the world.

If we just continued the way we were going prior to 9-11, we would eventually have seen a mega-attack on the US.

What would happend if terrorsit set off a chemical, biological, dirty bomb attack in a major city? New York, Chicago, LA, Miami, Atlanta, Houston.

What if there were tens of thousands, maybe hundrededs of thousands killed and injured??

I think the outrage would be so, that the population in the US would be in the streets demanding the complete destruction of the middle east. We are a nation that dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japan, turning the middle east into a parking lot would not be beyond us if such a terrorist attack would happen.

By intervening now, we can hopefully combat terrorism and those responsible before a major attack like this is commited upon our fellow citizens. Bush is trying to handle business while there is wiggle room, and put down terrorism before it turns into a situation that no President can control.

[Evil Chris]

MikeAI - Michael Moore.

Which one is bizarro Mike? :nyanya:

[LadyMischief]

If you REALLY think that the US invading is going to change the entire nature and religion of the middle east, you are dead wrong, and apparently haven't studied history too well. The way people are there now is the way they have been for thousands of years, and all the US invasion has done is make them unite behind ONE cause... Killing Americans. At least before, the tribes were too busy being at war with each other to be able to get REALLY organized enough to be a true threat.

Good job.

[VooMan]

You make a good point LadyMischief, but they did have enough time to get organized and take out two of the largest buildings in the US, and try for a couple more... :(

This whole mess sucks bigtime. And I think it's going to get a whole lot uglier before it can possibly get any better...

[Mike AI]

Chris, Lady, what do you think the response would be from the US if terrorist killed 50,000 Americans? 100k? 300k? It is a potential threat.

Do you think we would just sit on our hands? Pin point strikes?

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Mike AI@May 25 2004, 09:41 AM
Chris, Lady, what do you think the response would be from the US if terrorist killed 50,000 Americans? 100k? 300k? It is a potential threat.

Do you think we would just sit on our hands? Pin point strikes?
with President like Bush,
sonofabitches KNOW darn well,
countries will be inahilated,
we set the precedent withy Afganistan and Iraq.

...and this is why the fuckers don't dare as long as Bush is President and hate him for their impotence.

[RawAlex]

Mike, the harder you hit these people, the meaner and uglier they get. Terrorist types will fight to their last breath, and they will take out many more of your team than they will of their team.

They will hide amoungst civilians, in churches and mosques, and will play dirty, because they haven't signed up to the "gentlemen's rules of war".

The harder you hit them, the more determined they will be to get back at you. Ask the Israelis, they know how it goes. They cannot win that war until every single palestinian is dead, because someone is going to strap a bomb onto themselves and get on a bus...

You can scare and frighten someone into submission, but you cannot take the fight out of them like that, you make them hate you more, and they work harder and more effectively to show that hate.

Alex

[RawAlex]

Serge, the real terrorists don't care about countries... you can blow their stuff up, they usually aren't where the troops are.

They can wait, they are patient. 9/11 didn't happen in a week. They are planning way further ahead than the US military is these days.

Alex

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by RawAlex@May 25 2004, 09:56 AM
Mike, the harder you hit these people, the meaner and uglier they get. Terrorist types will fight to their last breath, and they will take out many more of your team than they will of their team.

They will hide amoungst civilians, in churches and mosques, and will play dirty, because they haven't signed up to the "gentlemen's rules of war".

The harder you hit them, the more determined they will be to get back at you. Ask the Israelis, they know how it goes. They cannot win that war until every single palestinian is dead, because someone is going to strap a bomb onto themselves and get on a bus...

You can scare and frighten someone into submission, but you cannot take the fight out of them like that, you make them hate you more, and they work harder and more effectively to show that hate.

Alex
Alex,
are you telling me those people have more than Japanese had????

you overestimate and fatasize too much,
look at FACTS and HISTORY instead.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by RawAlex@May 25 2004, 09:57 AM
Serge, the real terrorists don't care about countries... you can blow their stuff up, they usually aren't where the troops are.

They can wait, they are patient. 9/11 didn't happen in a week. They are planning way further ahead than the US military is these days.

Alex
sure, but the new generation of terrorists will be embedded into the parking lot formerly called.....The Middle Eastern Country

[RawAlex]

Serge, no these people have LESS than the japanese, and don't care to lose it. It isn't about living on the world, it is about being with Allah. Trying to put things into a materialistic context isn't going to explain things.

Hiroshima type death toll wouldn't be enough to stop them. It would just piss them off more. There is no way the US is going to get into a wholesale death scenerio with any part of the middle east, and I know they wouldn't do anything to risk contaminating or radiating the oil supply :-)

Alex

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by RawAlex@May 25 2004, 10:12 AM
Serge, no these people have LESS than the japanese, and don't care to lose it. It isn't about living on the world, it is about being with Allah. Trying to put things into a materialistic context isn't going to explain things.

Hiroshima type death toll wouldn't be enough to stop them. It would just piss them off more. There is no way the US is going to get into a wholesale death scenerio with any part of the middle east, and I know they wouldn't do anything to risk contaminating or radiating the oil supply :-)

Alex
Alex, once again your lack of knowledge of history just amazes me!

How many Japanese died as suicide pilots?

How many have they lost at Iojima?


you have no clue about Japanese view of heroic death and lack of materialism when it comes to the subject and Japoan's century old samurai warrior code.

Don't they teach you about ti in Canadien school system?

you were in Japan and you wasted the perfect opportunity to learn about the people.

[DrGuile]

Im sorry, but how is Iraq related to 9/11?

say something often enough and it becomes true?

[Vick]

Alex - let me break it down and simplify

There are terrorists who (may) have the USA as a target
These terrorists will not stop

What choice do we (the USA) have except to eradicate these terrorist or acquiesce to their demands and lifestyles?

Think we are beyond the point of placating or negation

[SykkBoy]

I'm amazed people aren't more concerned about the impending race war that's ready to break out here at any moment.

The Aryan Nation has been very quiet of late and that's never a good sign.

Mike Nicols could get the death penalty. The White Right already has Timothy McVeigh as a martyr and Nicols would be another if he gets the death penalty without giving anyone else up.

While we're busy chasing down the arab boogeyman, we might get surprised by some of our own good upstanding Christian sons declaring it's own war on America.

[Almighty Colin]

I think the question at hand is whether you can get everyone in the Islamic Middle East to identify with being Arab (ethnic), Iraqi or Saudi (state), or Democracy (government type) rather than being a sharia following Muslim. I don't know the answer to whether that is possible. Up against a lot of history there. Maybe too much. But who knows?

Turkey is a positive example though that came from within and that land is not completely free of terrorism but people certainly identify with these other institutions enough that no one ever worries about Turkish terrorists (though there are some).

If Iraq looks like Turkey in 20 years and the goal is as Mike says I'd say that's a hell of a success. If it looks like Syria in twenty years I'd say it's a failure.



Last edited by Colin at May 25 2004, 10:36 AM

[PornoDoggy]

Serge ... do you think that the Chechian rebels would stop fighting the Russians if the Russians nuc'd Grozny? I think you know enough history to realize that there were elements of the Japanese High Command that didn't want to surrender even after the two atom bombs were dropped.

Trying to "scare" terrorists out of being terrorists sells well to a domestic audience, but as a tactical doctrine it's just not very effective. Ask General Giap.

Mike ... that's just silly. Plain old silly.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by DrGuile@May 25 2004, 10:29 AM
Im sorry, but how is Iraq related to 9/11?

say something often enough and it becomes true?
Communist.

[Jesse_DD]

Mike - I agree. Of course it is a very complicated situation - but your overall premise I agree with. The bottom line is that whether we went over to Iraq or not is not going to immediately change the way extreme Islamists feel about America. But, I for one, would rather be proactive in trying to democratize the situation in hopes that it has a long term positive effect. The other option is that we kept going like we were (band-aiding the situation) and forever make ourselves the target of the Extremists.

Do we make ourselves more of a target initially? - probably. But, is it a better long term scenario? I believe so.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@May 25 2004, 10:37 AM
Serge ... do you think that the Chechian rebels would stop fighting the Russians if the Russians nuc'd Grozny? I think you know enough history to realize that there were elements of the Japanese High Command that didn't want to surrender even after the two atom bombs were dropped.

Trying to "scare" terrorists out of being terrorists sells well to a domestic audience, but as a tactical doctrine it's just not very effective. Ask General Giap.

Mike ... that's just silly. Plain old silly.
I didn't say anything about sacre...
I said let's kill all the motherfuckers including the next generations of motheruckers.

[Jesse_DD]

BTW - people are always going to hate the #1 - just live with it people!!!

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@May 25 2004, 10:40 AM
I didn't say anything about sacre...
I said let's kill all the motherfuckers including the next generations of motheruckers.
Define all, Serge ...

all muslims?

all terrorists?

all the people who don't think like you?

[RawAlex]

Serge, I learned way more about their culture than you can imagine. I am a certifiable asianphile, and I am VERY aware of many of the parts that make up their culture. Old subtitled japanese samurai movies are very enjoyable to watch. Their culture even today is an amazing mix of old and new, traditional and modern, self control and the always present quest to keep your 'cho'.

They are an intelligent people, and the US action in Hiroshima and nagasake was more then enough to show the people that they could lose. There was much loss of cho during that time, and that powerful force is part of what lead to the japan we know today. However, just like a recovered drug addict, the addiction to power and war isn't far under the surface, as you tell from reactions to comments made by North Korea in the last couple of years.

The middle east is different. For the most part, these cultures are still in the warrior / king / clan / warlord stage of development, so that while they may have pretty buildings, big cities, and functional economies, they are still dependant on this clan type system as part of their lives. They fight amoungst themselves, with others, and with other countries. They have for centuries, and they aren't planning to stop any time soon.

Israel has taken more than enough actions that should have stopped these groups a long time ago. Their leaders have been killed, their houses bombed and bulldozed, and their land systematically taken away, yet they fight on, often more effective than in the past.

These people have no cho - just the upholding of their clan's place in the world. There is no personal respect or position in life that is important, only that of their group.

Japanese will stop when they lose cho. That is exactly what happened. The Arabs of the middle east don't have cho, don't know when to stop.

Don't think so? Ask Yassir Arafat, who has slowly but surely blustered and bullied his way to less and less land, less and less control, and less and less freedom for his people. There have been land deals on the table in the last 10-15 years that would have made a very decent size palestinian state, and now they have almost nothing left to work from.

Their hatred of the Israelis goes beyond logic, beyond saving face, beyond cho.

To think that the rest of the arab world is suddenly going to pull a "japan" is beyond concept. Herding cats and guiding programmers would be easier.

Alex

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy+May 25 2004, 10:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PornoDoggy @ May 25 2004, 10:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Serge_Oprano@May 25 2004, 10:40 AM
I didn't say anything about sacre...
I said let's kill all the motherfuckers including the next generations of motheruckers.
Define all, Serge ...

all muslims?

all terrorists?

all the people who don't think like you?[/b][/quote]
yeap, and some more....

[Winetalk.com]

Alex, good points.

[Jesse_DD]

Can we just agree that there are such things as Evil Cultures?

Can it just be that Muslims are evil people that need to be destroyed?

We can argue this historically. Their religion was founded on war. That is how it spread so fast - they killed everyone that did not join them (pretty smart huh - now that is how you grow a religion). They have always used violence to "solve" their problems. Shiites and Sunnis have been killing themselves since Islam was founded.

A former leader of Moslems (Ayatollah) once said "Moslems have no alternative... but to go to Holy war.. holy war means conquest of all non-Moslem nations..."

Face it they will take the world or the world needs to take them.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Jesse_DD@May 25 2004, 11:12 AM
Can we just agree that there are such things as Evil Cultures?

Can it just be that Muslims are evil people that need to be destroyed?

We can argue this historically. Their religion was founded on war. That is how it spread so fast - they killed everyone that did not join them (pretty smart huh - now that is how you grow a religion). They have always used violence to "solve" their problems. Shiites and Sunnis have been killing themselves since Islam was founded.

A former leader of Moslems (Ayatollah) once said "Moslems have no alternative... but to go to Holy war.. holy war means conquest of all non-Moslem nations..."

Face it they will take the world or the world needs to take them.
Fire up the ovens, turn on the gas, and schedule the trains.

[DrGuile]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@May 25 2004, 11:19 AM
Fire up the ovens, turn on the gas, and schedule the trains.
.. just little bits of history repeating
.. and I've seen it before
.. and I'll see it again
.. yes I've seen it before
.. just little bits of history repeating

-Propellerhead

:agrin:

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by DrGuile+May 25 2004, 11:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DrGuile @ May 25 2004, 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--PornoDoggy@May 25 2004, 11:19 AM
Fire up the ovens, turn on the gas, and schedule the trains.
.. just little bits of history repeating
.. and I've seen it before
.. and I'll see it again
.. yes I've seen it before
.. just little bits of history repeating

-Propellerhead

:agrin:[/b][/quote]
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning,
Since the world's been turning.
We didn't start the fire
Well we didn't light it,
But we tried to fight it.

[Jesse_DD]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy+May 25 2004, 08:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PornoDoggy @ May 25 2004, 08:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Jesse_DD@May 25 2004, 11:12 AM
Can we just agree that there are such things as Evil Cultures?

Can it just be that Muslims are evil people that need to be destroyed?

We can argue this historically. Their religion was founded on war. That is how it spread so fast - they killed everyone that did not join them (pretty smart huh - now that is how you grow a religion). They have always used violence to "solve" their problems. Shiites and Sunnis have been killing themselves since Islam was founded.

A former leader of Moslems (Ayatollah) once said "Moslems have no alternative... but to go to Holy war.. holy war means conquest of all non-Moslem nations..."

Face it they will take the world or the world needs to take them.
Fire up the ovens, turn on the gas, and schedule the trains.[/b][/quote]
PornoDoggy

Although I am being somewhat facetious, please indulge me with your answers to the following:

1) are Muslim Extremists (100,000,000 estimated - or 10% of the population of Islam) inherently bad people? Meaning, have they always been a violent society that has had ill will towards all that are not like them?

2) Do they take this will and act upon it? For it is one thing to think about not liking a culture or group it is another to consistently war against them.

[Rolo]

The population growth in islamic countries vs. the standstill or decrease in the population who live in the western democratic world is scary - and that is why we need to act now, and not just wait until they evolve by themself.

Ex.

Iraq - http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/iraqc.htm

year 1900 = 2.060.000 people
year 1950 = 5.198.000 people
year 2000 = 22.675.600 people
year 2050 = 65.529.000 people

Saudi Arabia - http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/As...ia/saudiarc.htm (http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/saudiarc.htm)

year 1900 = 1.503.000 people
year 1950 = 3.916.000 people
year 2000 = 22.023.500 people
year 2030 = 47.074.000 people

This is the same trend in ALL islamic countries... and if you compare those numbers to western democratic countries, then you will see that in less than 50 years the western democratic world will have serious problems compared with today.

It will be a battle of the resources and minds of the islamic countries, and we can not and must not loose this war, because our children will end up fighting this, if we retreat today.



Last edited by Rolo at May 25 2004, 09:49 AM

[Meni]

didn't bin laden's crew hit the towers?
not Saddam?
2/3 of Iraqi's polled think we are doing more harm than good
democracy with all those religious freaks????? no such thing
we still chasing bin laden?
we should have asked his family where he was
you know the family livin the the USA

see chris rock
he ain't afraid of al quaida
he's afraid of al cracker

[Meni]

Originally posted by SykkBoy@May 25 2004, 10:33 AM
I'm amazed people aren't more concerned about the impending race war that's ready to break out here at any moment.

The Aryan Nation has been very quiet of late and that's never a good sign.

Mike Nicols could get the death penalty. The White Right already has Timothy McVeigh as a martyr and Nicols would be another if he gets the death penalty without giving anyone else up.

While we're busy chasing down the arab boogeyman, we might get surprised by some of our own good upstanding Christian sons declaring it's own war on America.
wow I just read your post
after i mentioned Chris Rock

[Meni]

"you cannot bring democracy to a country that holds religion as paramount to anything else, there rule of law will be govern by religion and religion alone. No fool in Iraq will vote for democracy"
My jew friend from Boca, no not SERGE

[Mike AI]

Meni if islamic terrorist released small pox into Boston, and 60,000+ people were infected, 1/2 of them dying. What do you think the President ( whoever it is) should do about it?

[Meni]

Originally posted by Mike AI@May 25 2004, 01:30 PM
Meni if islamic terrorist released small pox into Boston, and 60,000+ people were infected, 1/2 of them dying. What do you think the President ( whoever it is) should do about it?
BOMB IRAQ??????
keep licking Bush's ass
he fuckin is a moron
i never said don't go after terrorist
bin laden dude
not SADDAM

[Meni]

nice pr move
lets show the guys who got their hands cut off my Saddam on TV
we need to do something
we are sinking

[Meni]

MIke I finally read your post
We are a nation that dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japan, turning the middle east into a parking lot would not be beyond us if such a terrorist attack would happen.

can you show me on a map what to bomb? please
what about the cells in GERMANY?
do we bomb germany too?
Mike go watch the cup tonight

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Meni@May 25 2004, 01:34 PM
can you show me on a map what to bomb?
You need a geography lesson ...

http://www.linkification.com/linked/bombit.jpg

[Mike AI]

Meni, reality has nothing to do with war many times - not at least with civilians - its perception.

I have tickets to tonights game, and Thursday game. They are nose bleed seats, but the arean will be rocking!!

[Dravyk]

Mike, um, er, I think moving to Florida you've been visiting Disneyland a little too much. :unsure: (Talking about your first opening post here, btw.)

But that said ...

Mike, the harder you hit these people, the meaner and uglier they get. Terrorist types will fight to their last breath
(snip)
You can scare and frighten someone into submission, but you cannot take the fight out of them like that, you make them hate you more, and they work harder and more effectively to show that hate.

Alex, from everything I've read, from experts on all sides, American, Arab, neutral, military, academia ... All are in agreement on the following:

"If you retaliate, Muslims will fight back harder. If you give in, they see it as weakness and fight back harder. It's a no-win situation."

Now, I have heard that quote in myriad forms over and over again. And I agree with it -- all execpt the last part.

Sorry, if you're screwed if you do and screwed if you don't, the answer is simple: You kick the shit out of them!!! You do not lay down and die while leaving the enemy alone. No one would, no one does.




Last edited by Dravyk at May 25 2004, 03:13 PM

[Meni]

Mike I saw row A in the corner, yesterday
so sit alone?
hehehehe
$450 but on the GLASS
boom

[Vick]

Originally posted by Dravyk@May 25 2004, 02:12 PM
Mike, um, er, I think moving to Florida you've been visiting Disneyland a little too much.
Hey hey hey Drav

Get it right

In Florida it's DisneyWORLD

Where I trade much $$$ for much, much :D :lol: :)

and worth every damn cent

[spanno]

>> Bush is trying to save the middle east.

I would think not since its in Al Queda's interests for the US to attack Arab countries, torture prisoners and generally act badly so they can get more Arabs on their side. They know they don't have a hope in hell of bringing down America on their own so their terrorism is a strategy that depends on Americans like Bush to react in a certain way when provoked.

Personally I don't think Bush and his boys are stupid enough not to realise this is their game and are just using the terrorists as an excuse to further US interests and settle scores in the middle east. Who knows if I was being really paranoid I'd say Bin Laden could still be working with the CIA, upping the militancy as an excuse for military action to intimidate and control Arab states to secure oil, support Israel etc.


should vote him out he acts stupid but his people are deeply shady look at his dad hes another sinister ex cia fucker invading panama and shit

[PeerPatrick]

Umm no. You don't save the Middle East. They been fighting there for a few years now, at least since the 70's right? Bush and his buddies have shortened more lives than the poor suckers who signed up to protect our country and found themselves invading another. BFE shit box anyway...that just happens to have a lot of oil.

Might as well go back to Korea, fuck them up; bitchslap Vietnam back to rocks and stix, Pakistan, then India, Syria, everyone with any bio-science capability, or any country that can spell WMD or ever tried to kill GBoosh Sr.

Watch for more bombs on our soil, mailed toxins and deadly horrific disorder stemming from this disgusting little power grab. You're all on borrowed time, talking about playing world cop.

btw. I got a side deal going with the devil, a nice office, condo, car...so evbody with sense start sucking up now.

:salute:

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by PeerPatrick@May 25 2004, 03:47 PM
Umm no. You don't save the Middle East. They been fighting there for a few years now, at least since the 70's right?
Yeah, the 670s.

[Dravyk]

Originally posted by Colin+May 25 2004, 07:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ May 25 2004, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--PeerPatrick@May 25 2004, 03:47 PM
Umm no. You don't save the Middle East. They been fighting there for a few years now, at least since the 70's right?
Yeah, the 670s.[/b][/quote]
Sargon and Hammurabi would have said earlier still. :rolleyes:

Yeah, yeah. You're talking Islam; I'm talking fighting in the Middle East in general.




Last edited by Dravyk at May 25 2004, 07:26 PM

[Rolo]

I wonder if people really belive, if any other than Bush was president, then there would be world peace, and there would be no islamic fundamentalist looking to kill EVERY person who are not one of them?

Islam function best in societies where people have no freedom, are poor, and have no or little education. With the extreme population growth in arab and asian countries, where freedom, education, and wealth is rare, then we are headed towards a world where Islam is the biggest religion, controlling billions of suppressed, undereducated, and poor people... and a good % of those people will be angry, and who do you think they will blame for their misfortune? (themself, or others - hint the answer is in the Koran)

The world is so connected today, that we can not shut our eyes, build fortress around our lands, and hope that maybe "they" will leave us alone... it takes just an islamic uprising in saudi arabia, and it would have drastic changes in the western world, and our day to day life.

And that just the short term consequences - long term a world divided into modern democracies and islamic states will head us towards the final war, which will be replaced with sticks and stones...

For many Iraq have been turned into for or against Bush, but the truth is that the cat is out of the bag... No matter who is president, then he/she has to deal with problems, which usual only have a choice between two evils, and not like many might think between good or evil.
I don´t like Bush more than the next man, but if I had to choose between Islamic Chaos or Democratic Chaos, then I choose the last (and don´t belive for 1 minute that the Islamist would not take power and turn it into Taliban, if the US left Iraq or any other arab/asian nation alone).



Last edited by Rolo at May 25 2004, 04:23 PM

[Uri]

Originally posted by LadyMischief@May 25 2004, 05:13 PM
If you REALLY think that the US invading is going to change the entire nature and religion of the middle east, you are dead wrong, and apparently haven't studied history too well. The way people are there now is the way they have been for thousands of years, and all the US invasion has done is make them unite behind ONE cause... Killing Americans. At least before, the tribes were too busy being at war with each other to be able to get REALLY organized enough to be a true threat.

Good job.
You are 100% right.

See:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/431868.html


Uri

[Uri]

Originally posted by Rolo@May 26 2004, 03:21 AM
I wonder if people really belive, if any other than Bush was president, then there would be world peace, and there would be no islamic fundamentalist looking to kill EVERY person who are not one of them?

Islam function best in societies where people have no freedom, are poor, and have no or little education. With the extreme population growth in arab and asian countries, where freedom, education, and wealth is rare, then we are headed towards a world where Islam is the biggest religion, controlling billions of suppressed, undereducated, and poor people... and a good % of those people will be angry, and who do you think they will blame for their misfortune? (themself, or others - hint the answer is in the Koran)

The world is so connected today, that we can not shut our eyes, build fortress around our lands, and hope that maybe "they" will leave us alone... it takes just an islamic uprising in saudi arabia, and it would have drastic changes in the western world, and our day to day life.

And that just the short term consequences - long term a world divided into modern democracies and islamic states will head us towards the final war, which will be replaced with sticks and stones...

For many Iraq have been turned into for or against Bush, but the truth is that the cat is out of the bag... No matter who is president, then he/she has to deal with problems, which usual only have a choice between two evils, and not like many might think between good or evil.
I don´t like Bush more than the next man, but if I had to choose between Islamic Chaos or Democratic Chaos, then I choose the last (and don´t belive for 1 minute that the Islamist would not take power and turn it into Taliban, if the US left Iraq or any other arab/asian nation alone).
That is incorrect.

There are many societies where Islam and each of the various factions of Muslims live normal lives and are not interested in engaging in War or Terrorism.

This is true in Morocco, the United States, Canada just to name a few counties. In these countries the citizens live in peace with themselves and their neighbors of different religions. There is always an exception, but it is RARE.

Uri

[Rolo]

Morocco might be 99% muslim, but it is not ruled by Islamist, and Morocco being muslim didn´t stop Islamist from making terrorist attacks at their financial centre in 2003.

Is there one country in the world, where Islamist are in power, where they live in peace, love and harmony with the rest of world?

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by RawAlex@May 25 2004, 10:48 AM
Israel has taken more than enough actions that should have stopped these groups a long time ago.
Israel has taken every action with her hands tied behind her back by the US

If US did not interfere, Israel would have wiped out half its neighbors long time ago and everyone would have lived happily ever after

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by RawAlex@May 25 2004, 09:56 AM
The harder you hit them, the more determined they will be to get back at you.
WRONG, the harder you hit them
they faster they'll learn

Did Saddam stay so long in power by being nice to his enemies ??

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Rolo@May 25 2004, 07:21 PM
I wonder if people really belive, if any other than Bush was president, then there would be world peace, and there would be no islamic fundamentalist looking to kill EVERY person who are not one of them?

Islam function best in societies where people have no freedom, are poor, and have no or little education. With the extreme population growth in arab and asian countries, where freedom, education, and wealth is rare, then we are headed towards a world where Islam is the biggest religion, controlling billions of suppressed, undereducated, and poor people... and a good % of those people will be angry, and who do you think they will blame for their misfortune? (themself, or others - hint the answer is in the Koran)

The world is so connected today, that we can not shut our eyes, build fortress around our lands, and hope that maybe "they" will leave us alone... it takes just an islamic uprising in saudi arabia, and it would have drastic changes in the western world, and our day to day life.

And that just the short term consequences - long term a world divided into modern democracies and islamic states will head us towards the final war, which will be replaced with sticks and stones...

For many Iraq have been turned into for or against Bush, but the truth is that the cat is out of the bag... No matter who is president, then he/she has to deal with problems, which usual only have a choice between two evils, and not like many might think between good or evil.
I don´t like Bush more than the next man, but if I had to choose between Islamic Chaos or Democratic Chaos, then I choose the last (and don´t belive for 1 minute that the Islamist would not take power and turn it into Taliban, if the US left Iraq or any other arab/asian nation alone).


This is a great post. You should write speachs for Bush.

[Almighty Colin]

Democracy in the Middle East. Why not?

The US helped Afganistan against the USSR. Still they attack us.
The US helped Kuwait. Still they attack us.
The US helped put an end to a number of Israeli/Arab conflicts. Still they attack us.
The US armed Kuwait. Still they attack us.
The US armed Saudi Arabia. Still they attack us.
Camp David Accords? Peace with Egypt? Still they attack us.

The US have been way more neutral in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict than any Middle Eastern country. You know, all those nations filled with Arab brothers that refuse to take in Palestinian refugees. Like Kuwait who expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their land. What's the real agenda? Kill all the Jews, I'm sure. Hell, they've tried.

Some wackos think US policy is to blame - as if the US made the population of the Middle East explode and the standard of living go down while keeping nearly half the population veiled and unproductive. That crazy idea probably originated in the Arab press - you know the same people that print stories that the US used a nuke in Iraq and that the Jews caused 9/11.

So why not? Give them democracy - even if it is by the sword - and see what happens. What do we have to lose?



Last edited by Colin at May 26 2004, 07:32 PM

[Meni]

Originally posted by Colin@May 26 2004, 07:29 PM
Democracy in the Middle East. Why not?

The US helped Afganistan against the USSR. Still they attack us.
The US helped Kuwait. Still they attack us.
The US helped put an end to a number of Israeli/Arab conflicts. Still they attack us.
The US armed Kuwait. Still they attack us.
The US armed Saudi Arabia. Still they attack us.
Camp David Accords? Peace with Egypt? Still they attack us.

The US have been way more neutral in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict than any Middle Eastern country. You know, all those nations filled with Arab brothers that refuse to take in Palestinian refugees. Like Kuwait who expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their land. What's the real agenda? Kill all the Jews, I'm sure. Hell, they've tried.

Some wackos think US policy is to blame - as if the US made the population of the Middle East explode and the standard of living go down while keeping nearly half the population veiled and unproductive. That crazy idea probably originated in the Arab press - you know the same people that print stories that the US used a nuke in Iraq and that the Jews caused 9/11.

So why not? Give them democracy - even if it is by the sword - and see what happens. What do we have to lose?
colin you can't have democracy in a land where religion is paramount
my jew friendn told me

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Meni@May 26 2004, 07:33 PM
colin you can't have democracy in a land where religion is paramount my jew friendn told me
Meni,

Go look up the religious demographics of Turkey. Remember, this nation was once part of the Ottoman Empire. Now they are a NATO-alliance democracy with a population greater than France.

[Rolo]

Because democracy is the first step in killing a religion...

Islamic countries is mostly made up off people who beyond their own rational control, are member of Islam, because through their society and laws there is no chance to be anything other than Muslim.

All humans are born as Atheist (person who do not belive in god), it is society which makes some become Theist (person who belive in god or gods). Making societies democratic removes power from religion, and will fragment larger groups by presenting the many alternatives which are normal in a democracy. At first democracy will be slow - only taking a few members from the larger groups, but this repeats/continues over time, and at some point democracy becomes stable, and the larger groups can not attack all the new small groups, because they will become disliked.

Look at religion in the western democratic world - the big religions are failing, because they are no longer needed. Babies born today can remain Atheists, and later in life they can make their own choice if they want to belive in God(s) or not, and no matter their choice, then they will still be equal.

Ofcourse democracy in the middle east will not be easy (they have been brianwashed for so long), but its the first step in killing religion in the region, and all the bad things which religion make people do.

[Vick]

Originally posted by Rolo@May 26 2004, 08:46 PM
All humans are born as Atheist (person who do not belive in god), it is society which makes some become Theist (person who belive in god or gods). Making societies democratic removes power from religion, and will fragment larger groups by presenting the many alternatives which are normal in a democracy. At first democracy will be slow - only taking a few members from the larger groups, but this repeats/continues over time, and at some point democracy becomes stable, and the larger groups can not attack all the new small groups, because they will become disliked.

Look at religion in the western democratic world - the big religions are failing, because they are no longer needed. Babies born today can remain Atheists, and later in life they can make their own choice if they want to belive in God(s) or not, and no matter their choice, then they will still be equal.


:okthumb: :okthumb:

[jas1552]

Originally posted by Colin@May 26 2004, 04:29 PM
Democracy in the Middle East. Why not?

The US helped Afganistan against the USSR. Still they attack us.
The US helped Kuwait. Still they attack us.
The US helped put an end to a number of Israeli/Arab conflicts. Still they attack us.
The US armed Kuwait. Still they attack us.
The US armed Saudi Arabia. Still they attack us.
Camp David Accords? Peace with Egypt? Still they attack us.

The US have been way more neutral in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict than any Middle Eastern country. You know, all those nations filled with Arab brothers that refuse to take in Palestinian refugees. Like Kuwait who expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their land. What's the real agenda? Kill all the Jews, I'm sure. Hell, they've tried.

Some wackos think US policy is to blame - as if the US made the population of the Middle East explode and the standard of living go down while keeping nearly half the population veiled and unproductive. That crazy idea probably originated in the Arab press - you know the same people that print stories that the US used a nuke in Iraq and that the Jews caused 9/11.

So why not? Give them democracy - even if it is by the sword - and see what happens. What do we have to lose?
You're exactly right. It's poverty and oppression that's most responsible for the terrorist problem the western world is facing today. I think there are only 2 ways of winning the war on terror. 1. nuke them and kill them all. I don't support that option at all. or 2. help them (by force if necessary) to attain democracy and prosperity. A much better option I think.