A shocked Muslim

[Almighty Colin]

I read this attitude by many Muslims. The idea that Islam needs to go "back to its roots" and that deviations from the Koran and Allah's will are what has caused the decline of Islam the past 400 years. What's interesting is that it reminds me of the statements by the prophets of the Old Testament trying to explain what had gone wrong in Israel after the Persians and Babylonians conquered it.


-----------Post by a Muslim from a message board---------------

I have never seen so many ignorant people on the same forum in my entire life. I understand all of you want to give your 2 cents on this topic, but you need to understand Islam and Muslims before you blah, blah, blah whatever thought comes to your minds. None of you even have the slightest idea how Muslims feel or think, yet you feel very comfortable talking about people you know nothing about.

YES, ISLAM WILL CHANGE VERY SOON. HOW, YOU ASK? By going back to its ROOTS. Muslims around the world have deviated from their religion, therefore they are now being punished for that. Before your little European Enlighment, Muslims ruled the world when it come medicine, military power, education. Contrary to your beliefs, Muslims coexisted with non-Muslims peacefully. The happiest time for the Jews, since they were expelled from Palestine, was when we let them live in the Islamic Kingdom of Spain when Muslims controlled it.

All this discussion about modernizing and reforming Islam has cracked me up. I remember one poster saying that we should plant a new Islamic church in the U.S that is not depedent from Saudi Arabia. LOL. That's hilarious. He even said we should even print different versions of the Quran different than the original text in Arabic. DO NOT YOU THINK THESE TRICKS HAVE BEEN TRIED BEFORE? Early orientalist have tried to publish a new Quran by deleting and adding new verses. Believe me, those Qurans did not last. There are millions of Muslim around the world who have the WHOLE Quran by heart. I memorized the Quran at 12 years. There are many Muslims in Pakistan, India, Bangaladesh, Somalia and in the Arab world who know the Quran letter for letter. And changing it the way the bible was corrupted will and can NEVER happen.

Muslims are now waking up and realising Western democracy and capitalism will be fail just as communism has failed. Cracks are already starting to appear in South America where America has forced its ideas of democracy and capitalism. Before democracy appeared, Islam was successful for 1100 years in establishing an excellent economic, social and moral system that was can never superceded. The U.S. Constitution needs changes all the time while the Quran is perfect the way it is and will continue to be that way until The END.

My advice to you, STOP KIDDING YOURSELF ... Muslims want God's laws to be implemented. The Quran will not changed or reformed. Wishful thinking like Islam will collapse like Soviet communism will get you nowhere. Christianity is dead, democracy is one big lie, and ISLAM is ALIVE and KICKING and it continues to inspire people all around the people. Watch for the Islamic Caliphate to reappear within 10 years.

I honestly believe we can live in a peaceful world. Islam is tolerant of other faiths. History and even your text books prove that. But NEVER expect a Muslim to turn the other cheek.



Last edited by Colin at May 20 2004, 05:36 AM

[Buff]

When I saw the title of your post I expected this:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20040514/mdf555883.jpg

You disappointed me.



Last edited by Buff at May 20 2004, 10:12 AM

[Almighty Colin]

Shit, I laughed. I think I'm insensitive.

[Buff]

Originally posted by Colin@May 20 2004, 11:15 AM
Shit, I laughed. I think I'm insensitive.
Well that's what I thought you were gonna post, because you're known for your wordplay.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Buff+May 20 2004, 12:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Buff @ May 20 2004, 12:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Colin@May 20 2004, 11:15 AM
Shit, I laughed. I think I'm insensitive.
Well that's what I thought you were gonna post, because you're known for your wordplay.[/b][/quote]
BTW .. Did you read the post? Ever read the post-exile Biblical prophets? Sound familiar?

[Dravyk]

I honestly believe we can live in a peaceful world. Islam is tolerant of other faiths. History and even your text books prove that.

Muslims WERE tolerant. They had a great civilization of peace, science, academics, literature ... way back then.

Personally, I think the Crusades is what f**ked everything up. Or at least one big item among many that led to their decline and their anti-Koranic ways that we now know so well.

[Buff]

Originally posted by Dravyk@May 20 2004, 12:14 PM
I honestly believe we can live in a peaceful world. Islam is tolerant of other faiths. History and even your text books prove that.

Muslims WERE tolerant. They had a great civilization of peace, science, academics, literature ... way back then.

Personally, I think the Crusades is what f**ked everything up. Or at least one big item among many that led to their decline and their anti-Koranic ways that we now know so well.
Exactly wrong. The Muslims rolled through the "Holy Lands" and forced converted the masses, and the Crusades were the Christian reaction. Islam has NEVER been peaceful -- it was born in war as Mohammed rode across Arabia slaughtering people and then it had a civil war and broke into two warring factions, and now it is at war with everyone.

[Dravyk]

Buff, reading is fundamental. :D

[JR]

Dravyk, ARABS and Jews (and others) lived side by side in peace and harmony... BEFORE Islam.



:ph34r:

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Buff@May 20 2004, 01:20 PM
The Muslims rolled through the "Holy Lands" and forced converted the masses, and the Crusades were the Christian reaction. Islam has NEVER been peaceful -- it was born in war as Mohammed rode across Arabia slaughtering people and then it had a civil war and broke into two warring factions, and now it is at war with everyone.
There ya go. All the way to Spain in about 100 years. Remarkable really.

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by Buff@May 20 2004, 01:20 PM
Exactly wrong. The Muslims rolled through the "Holy Lands" and forced converted the masses
correct me if i'm wrong but Jews and Christians were excluded from convertions

[Dravyk]

Originally posted by JR@May 20 2004, 03:06 PM
Dravyk, ARABS and Jews (and others) lived side by side in peace and harmony... BEFORE Islam.
Appreciate finding out what I already knew there, JR!!

They also lived in peace a good many centuries after Islam was founded as well. Which was my point ... as you probably already know ... and despite what Buff believes.

Edited for friggen typos



Last edited by Dravyk at May 21 2004, 12:47 AM

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Dravyk+May 20 2004, 11:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dravyk @ May 20 2004, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--JR@May 20 2004, 03:06 PM
Dravyk, ARABS and Jews (and others) lived side by side in peace and harmony... BEFORE Islam.
Appreciate finding out what I already knew there, JR!!

They also lived in peace a good many centuries after Islam was founded as well. Which was my point ... as you probably already know ... and despite what Buff believes.

Edited for friggen typos[/b][/quote]
Mohammed himself went to war and captured most of the Arabian peninsula including Southern Palestine. In the first 100 years Islam captured all of Northern Africa, Spain, and a good portion of what we now call the Middle East. All of this by war. The Franks defeated the Islamic armies in a famous battle at
Poiters (Charles Martel) which marked the furthest expansion of Islam in that direction. This was exactly 100 years after the death of Mohammed.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by slavdogg+May 20 2004, 08:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (slavdogg @ May 20 2004, 08:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Buff@May 20 2004, 01:20 PM
Exactly wrong. The Muslims rolled through the "Holy Lands" and forced converted the masses
correct me if i'm wrong but Jews and Christians were excluded from convertions[/b][/quote]
I don't think there's a problem with it. I'd even say it's encouraged. It's a one-way choice though. ;-)

[Buff]

Originally posted by Dravyk+May 20 2004, 10:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dravyk @ May 20 2004, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--JR@May 20 2004, 03:06 PM
Dravyk, ARABS and Jews (and others) lived side by side in peace and harmony... BEFORE Islam.
Appreciate finding out what I already knew there, JR!!

They also lived in peace a good many centuries after Islam was founded as well. Which was my point ... as you probably already know ... and despite what Buff believes.

Edited for friggen typos[/b][/quote]
http://www.friesian.com/islam.htm

I hope that helps clear up the fact that Islam, indeed, is a religion of war.

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by Buff+May 21 2004, 01:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Buff @ May 21 2004, 01:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Dravyk@May 20 2004, 10:45 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--JR@May 20 2004, 03:06 PM
Dravyk, ARABS and Jews (and others) lived side by side in peace and harmony... BEFORE Islam.
Appreciate finding out what I already knew there, JR!!

They also lived in peace a good many centuries after Islam was founded as well. Which was my point ... as you probably already know ... and despite what Buff believes.

Edited for friggen typos
http://www.friesian.com/islam.htm

I hope that helps clear up the fact that Islam, indeed, is a religion of war.[/b][/quote]
Are you for peace now Buffy?

I thought you loved war.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@May 21 2004, 05:29 AM
Are you for peace now Buffy?

I thought you loved war.
Don't know about Buff but it doesn't bother me one bit that Islam is at war with the rest of the world. I'm just waiting for the day when Russia and the US team up and end it for good.

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by Colin+May 21 2004, 02:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ May 21 2004, 02:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Joe Sixpack@May 21 2004, 05:29 AM
Are you for peace now Buffy?

I thought you loved war.
Don't know about Buff but it doesn't bother me one bit that Islam is at war with the rest of the world. I'm just waiting for the day when Russia and the US team up and end it for good.[/b][/quote]
You want to kill every muslim on Earth?

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@May 21 2004, 06:13 AM

You want to kill every muslim on Earth?
Not yet

[Buff]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack+May 21 2004, 04:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ May 21 2004, 04:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Buff@May 21 2004, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by -Dravyk@May 20 2004, 10:45 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--JR@May 20 2004, 03:06 PM
Dravyk, ARABS and Jews (and others) lived side by side in peace and harmony... BEFORE Islam.
Appreciate finding out what I already knew there, JR!!

They also lived in peace a good many centuries after Islam was founded as well. Which was my point ... as you probably already know ... and despite what Buff believes.

Edited for friggen typos
http://www.friesian.com/islam.htm

I hope that helps clear up the fact that Islam, indeed, is a religion of war.
Are you for peace now Buffy?

I thought you loved war.[/b][/quote]
War, Peace, I don't really mind either too much. As long as at the end of the day, I know that God is on my side and hates the other guys.

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by Buff+May 21 2004, 04:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Buff @ May 21 2004, 04:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Joe Sixpack@May 21 2004, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by -Buff@May 21 2004, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by -Dravyk@May 20 2004, 10:45 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--JR@May 20 2004, 03:06 PM
Dravyk, ARABS and Jews (and others) lived side by side in peace and harmony... BEFORE Islam.
Appreciate finding out what I already knew there, JR!!

They also lived in peace a good many centuries after Islam was founded as well. Which was my point ... as you probably already know ... and despite what Buff believes.

Edited for friggen typos
http://www.friesian.com/islam.htm

I hope that helps clear up the fact that Islam, indeed, is a religion of war.
Are you for peace now Buffy?

I thought you loved war.
War, Peace, I don't really mind either too much. As long as at the end of the day, I know that God is on my side and hates the other guys.[/b][/quote]
You believe in God?

How quaint.

[Buff]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack+May 21 2004, 06:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ May 21 2004, 06:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Buff@May 21 2004, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by -Joe Sixpack@May 21 2004, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by -Buff@May 21 2004, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by -Dravyk@May 20 2004, 10:45 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--JR@May 20 2004, 03:06 PM
Dravyk, ARABS and Jews (and others) lived side by side in peace and harmony... BEFORE Islam.
Appreciate finding out what I already knew there, JR!!

They also lived in peace a good many centuries after Islam was founded as well. Which was my point ... as you probably already know ... and despite what Buff believes.

Edited for friggen typos
http://www.friesian.com/islam.htm

I hope that helps clear up the fact that Islam, indeed, is a religion of war.
Are you for peace now Buffy?

I thought you loved war.
War, Peace, I don't really mind either too much. As long as at the end of the day, I know that God is on my side and hates the other guys.
You believe in God?

How quaint.[/b][/quote]
Of course I do. How else could I explain my genetic superiority manifested in my stunning good looks and singular intellect? And then there's all the hot chicks who are drawn to me. Hell, my fiancee is a true hottie.

Face it, Joe: God loves me -- a lot.

[Dravyk]

Originally posted by Buff@May 21 2004, 05:25 AM
I hope that helps clear up the fact that Islam, indeed, is a religion of war.
And what is Christianity, Buff???

Crusades, Spanish Inquisition ... how about when the Pope gave 20,000 soldiers to the Medici to retake Florence? And with the Pope's blessings they slaughtered every man, woman and child in the neighboring town? Think I recall it was upwards of 2,000, but who cares if it was just 200? (They slaughtered the nieghboring town btw, cause they didn't want to take over a destroyed Florence.)

Maybe maybe you get my point now. And if not, not.


Colin, some of that, yeah I agree with. There are other points I have but for those I'd need to recheck my facts first and I just don't have time to do the research, so I'll leave that for another day.

[Buff]

Originally posted by Dravyk+May 21 2004, 03:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dravyk @ May 21 2004, 03:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Buff@May 21 2004, 05:25 AM
I hope that helps clear up the fact that Islam, indeed, is a religion of war.
And what is Christianity, Buff???

Crusades, Spanish Inquisition ... how about when the Pope gave 20,000 soldiers to the Medici to retake Florence? And with the Pope's blessings they slaughtered every man, woman and child in the neighboring town? Think I recall it was upwards of 2,000, but who cares if it was just 200? (They slaughtered the nieghboring town btw, cause they didn't want to take over a destroyed Florence.)

Maybe maybe you get my point now. And if not, not.


Colin, some of that, yeah I agree with. There are other points I have but for those I'd need to recheck my facts first and I just don't have time to do the research, so I'll leave that for another day.[/b][/quote]
What's Christianity got to do with this discussion? I contend that Islam is a religion of war, born out of war and remaining warlike to this day.

Why did you bring up Christianity of all things? Why not Hinduism or Buddhism (both of which Islam is also at war with)?

[Rolo]

Problem with Islam is there have never been real reformers, where the religion have/tries to adapt to the world its living in... Islam is standing still, and the agressive tone in Islam will only lead to more and worse confrontation in the years too come.

All religions were made to control the minds of humans, but in time all religions will fail, because the human mind is curious, and the mind will continue to find needs, questions and answers, which religion can not answer.

Facing Islam (or any other religion for that matter) and challenging it in 2004 should be no problem for a modern democratic world, however we are trapped by our own respect for those who are not thinking the same way as we do... one of basis of democracy is that we agree to disagree.

When Islam does not use this to their full advantage, and secure their place in a democratic world, then it shows that Islam can not function in a modern world, and someday they indeed will need to reform or be extinct - evolution waits for no one, and looking at the survival chances of all societies in the world, then the western democratic world is leading.

Muslims may be shocked now, but just wait, when the modern world spread in their lands, then they will be busy finding answers and solutions like the christians did in the reformation, if not then they will be a page in future history books beside the other religions, which did not want to change.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Rolo@May 22 2004, 07:22 AM
someday they indeed will need to reform or be extinct
.. or the dominant survivor.



Last edited by Colin at May 22 2004, 07:57 AM

[Almighty Colin]

Dravyk,

I don't have a much higher opinion of Christianity.

One thing though:

A Muslim has to ignore the Koran to peaceful.
A Christian has to ignore the New Teastament to not be.

[Dravyk]

Buff, never mind. Let's not bring anything into the discussion that might make it remotely balanced and less extremist. :)

As the Prophet Carlin sayeth:
"Do you believe in God?"
"No."
bang!
"Do you believe in God?"
"Yes."
"Do you believe in MY God?"
"No."
bang!

Colin, heartily agreed. :)

[Vick]

Originally posted by Rolo@May 22 2004, 07:22 AM
but in time all religions will fail,
I hope that's correct but I have serious reservations