Question on Berg...

[XXXPhoto]

a small comment/question as I'm wondering if anyone else has information on it...

I've seen the (IMO misleading) phrase, "there to help Iraqis" and "there to rebuild
the infrastructure" several times in almost every news story. However, no details
are offered that he actually ever 'did' any "work". The only references I have seen at
all was report that he was coming home cause couldn't find any work on his second trip.

I find it odd too that while he was there from Dec03-Feb04, no mention was made
of anything he actually did during that time period either. Said he 'wanted' to help
rebuild infrastructure... but again, no mention of him doing anything specific. You'd
think somewhere in those daily emails home he would have mentioned if he'd found
work or talked about a project he was part of... and that if he had, parents would
have mentioned it as concrete examples of son's accomplishments...

News stories tell how he "...at one point teaching villagers in Ghana how to make
bricks." and "...helped set up electronics equipment at the Republican National Convention
in Philadelphia in 2000." So where is the info on him 'rebuilding the infrastructure' of Iraq?

[PornoDoggy]

You've asked a very good question ... one that I am sure that we will hear any number of interpretations of over the coming days.

As I stated in the other thread on this subject - there is something mighty fishy about this one. I see the bobbleheads on both sides have already drawn their battle lines.

I don't know enough to form an opinion - and I wonder if I ever will.

I think it is possible this was a stupid do-gooder that found his happy ass in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I think it is possible that this guy was some kind of alQaida operative/wannabe.

I think there are other possibilities here, too ... far more sinister (IMHO) than the first two.

[XXXPhoto]

PD,

Edited post on other thread... Honestly started this one in hopes of some actual discussion on what has been said/reported and what hasn't been...

To me, I can see our 'insert term here' (authorities/government/military/ect) suppressing information on his most recent projects in order to investigate what he actually did 'work wise'... Can just as easily see them suppressing it because what he did over there was not the message (again, insert term of your choice here) 'they' didn't feel their interests would be served by public knowing what he was up to...

All those colleges, all that travel and only 26? Could very well be innocent good natured kid who let his rose colored glasses and naivety blind him while trying to help his fellow man... Could have also been a developed asset for one organization or another who was expended in hopes of achieving some desired result...



Last edited by XXXPhoto at May 13 2004, 11:56 PM

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by XXXPhoto@May 14 2004, 02:54 AM
All those colleges, all that travel and only 26? Could very well be innocent good natured kid who let his rose colored glasses and naivety blind him while trying to help his fellow man... Could have also been a developed asset for one organization or another who was expended in hopes of achieving some desired result...
According to the Houston Chronicle, "As a rare American not tied to a major Defense Department contractor, Berg had spent months in Iraq drumming up business as a communications tower repairman. He often took public transportation and didn't have a driver or translator.

U.S. officials have denied that Berg was in U.S. custody in Iraq. But Berg's family apparently had been told via e-mail from a State Department consular officer that Berg was being held by the U.S. military.

State Department officials confirmed Thursday the authenticity of the April 1 e-mail from Beth A. Payne, who was the U.S. consular officer in Baghdad until mid-April. But a State Department spokeswoman said thee-mail was inaccurate.

Other versions of events surfaced Thursday. A U.S. general in Mosul said Iraqi police detained Berg at the FBI's request, but the police chief of Mosul disputed assertions that his department arrested Berg."

Curiouser and curiouser...

[XXXPhoto]

Yes... and again the doublespeak language...

"months in Iraq drumming up business as a communications tower repairman"

Comeon press... you've established what he/parents said he was there to do... how about telling what he actually did do? If it comes out he never really did any 'rebuilding' cause couldn't find work was it because the GOB network didn't want to share the Haliburton tit with young Jewish kid? or was it he was just lousy at self promotion/selling himself?

[PornoDoggy]

Now, wait just a minute here ... seems to me that it's not surprising that not a hell of a lot of info has developed on what he's been doing so far. Shit, it would probably take a day or two to track down what somebody'd been doing in the states for the last couple months ... tracking down sources in Iraq undoubtedly is going to take more time.

I'm not entirely sure that even "was in U.S. custody/wasn't in U.S. custody" "was in Iraqi custody/wasn't in Iraqi custody" "no we didn't tell his parents he was in U.S. custody/yes we did but we were mistaken" is doublespeak at this point in time ... but it comes a damned site closer to smelling pretty stinky than the absence of a lot of information on his activities for the last couple months.

Unless, of course, you are Buff ... in which case, you can call anything that doesn't present everything in the light of your own ideaology as doublespeak.

[XXXPhoto]

PD,

The reasons I find the no information on any work he did or didn't do while there so important is fact it was reported he was in daily email contact with his relatives for much of his time there. Seems a parent would be quick to solidify what child was doing, make it concrete; yet every news blurb I've read so far only talks about what he 'was there to do' rather than 'what he did there'. From sound of what occured, the Dad didn't think any work was going to be found and was going to JFK to pick him up even after contact had broken off.

Thanks to Patriot Act, copies of those emails should be in hands of gov w/o any fuss shouldn't they? It's being reported how he taught brick-making in Ghana and helped wire the RNC in 2000, yet little is being said about how he spent his time prior to that first arrest? Or even what he did on his first trip over there from Dec to early Feb? That doesn't seem odd?

[RawAlex]

Based on what I have heard, and putting a little two and two together, I came up to this:

Big strong guy, not scared of heights (or much of anything else, I gather) wandering around IRaq looking to make fast non-taxable income fixing telecom stuff, mostly antennas and such.

What got him in trouble, from what I gather, is that his passport had a very recent stamp from Isreal... I didn't grasp the reasons why this would be an issue beyond the fact that most in the arab world aren't too fond of Isreal or it's people.

However, there is a bigger question, which is what is a 26 year old american with no fixed job doing wandering around Iraq? Isn't it just plain to see that this whole situation could have been avoided with a little PERSONAL COMMON SENSE? You couldn't get my ass into Iraq with anything less than a small platoon to protect me. What was this yahoo doing even in the country to start with?

Freedom to death, I guess. :-(

Alex

[Hammer]

Does anyone else see the possibility here that he allowed himself to be killed just like the men who flew the planes into the trade center did. Somehow they are convinced that they are serving their god or cause.

To be honest, in that video I almost started thining it looked like he was already dead and just propped there because I never saw him move once for the 2 minutes or so that the guy behind him was reading. Either that or he was drugged heavily.

Did anyone see any sign that he didn't want to die? If that was me, I sure as shit wouldn't sit there quietly while they read their statement. I know he was bound hand and foot but that sure as hell wouldn't have stopped me from doing my damndest to resist. Sure, I would have been overpowered and killed but I wouldn't have made it easy for them.

I've also talked with some people that know something about anatomy and my understanding is that when you are beheaded instantly the body would not move, but in this case it took about half a minute for the guy to cut his head off with a small knife and as he was hitting nerves -- especially the spinal cord -- there should have been some very severe involuntary movement from the body. I didn't see any movement.

[Mike AI]

Where there is smoke, their is fire.

This guy was either really stupid, naive, or was trying to do something more devious.

As PD says there is not enough information out there to really know yet, and chances are there never will be.

But something is fishy.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Mike AI@May 14 2004, 09:12 AM
Where there is smoke, their is fire.

This guy was either really stupid, naive, or was trying to do something more devious.

As PD says there is not enough information out there to really know yet, and chances are there never will be.

But something is fishy.
are you saying he was working for the government?

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+May 14 2004, 09:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ May 14 2004, 09:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Mike AI@May 14 2004, 09:12 AM
Where there is smoke, their is fire.

This guy was either really stupid, naive, or was trying to do something more devious.

As PD says there is not enough information out there to really know yet, and chances are there never will be.

But something is fishy.
are you saying he was working for the government?[/b][/quote]
Oh no, I think its the opposite. Knowing his dad's leftist anti-American views ( the man is slamming Bush about patriot act, and other things that have nothing to do with his sons death).

The e-mail thing in Oklahoma with terrorists.

I think Berg was working for terrorists, or trying to work for terrorist.

He was up to no good.

I am also noticing that during this prisoner scandel the press is not covering the real action - which is the battle with insurgents and Sadr.

If not for the prisoner scandel being reported on all headlines, the liberal medai would be bashing the military for what they are doing to holy shrines, and cemetaries.

I hope the military uses this time to destroy Sadr and all other terrorists.

[Mike AI]

Berg's father said Thursday his son was someone who simply wanted to "help people, not to hurt anyone." "He was not disrespectful of danger, he just didn't recognize danger in people," Michael Berg said. "The al Qaeda that killed my son didn't know what they were doing. They killed their best friend. Nick was there to build Iraq, not to tear it down."

Are these poorly choosen words? Or a clue?

http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clickabilit...&partnerID=2006 (http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Was+Berg+in+U.S.+custody%3F+Answers+conflict+-+May+14%2C+2004&expire=&urlID=10251404&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F2004%2FWORLD%2F meast%2F05%2F14%2Firaq.berg%2Findex.html&partnerID=2006)

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Mike AI@May 14 2004, 09:37 AM
Berg's father said Thursday his son was someone who simply wanted to "help people, not to hurt anyone." "He was not disrespectful of danger, he just didn't recognize danger in people," Michael Berg said. "The al Qaeda that killed my son didn't know what they were doing. They killed their best friend. Nick was there to build Iraq, not to tear it down."

Are these poorly choosen words? Or a clue?

http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clickabilit...&partnerID=2006 (http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Was+Berg+in+U.S.+custody%3F+Answers+conflict+-+May+14%2C+2004&expire=&urlID=10251404&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F2004%2FWORLD%2F meast%2F05%2F14%2Firaq.berg%2Findex.html&partnerID=2006)
VERY interesting piece of information,
you might be onto something, Mike.

I think his father WAS speaking his mind...

[Rox]

Sorry to be a bit gross and ponder this from an unemotional vantage point. And maybe the video quality (or lack thereof) is to blame and I'm just not seeing it... but no matter the method of decapitation, guillotine or kukri, the carotid artery being severed causes blood to spurt quite a distance. I didn't see that (again, the video quality could be an issue), though it looked like there was a pool of blood underneath him.

I don't know if it's possible that some drug was given to Berg that could lower his blood pressure enough to cause no arterial spurting, or if there could be some other reason, but it does make one wonder.

And just heard something on the news that there's some link between Berg and Moussaoui? One used the other's email or something like that (only caught a brief snippet).

Militant religious nuts on one side and power-hungry, lying politicians on the other; hard to know what to think beyond, "What a clusterfuck."

[Buff]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@May 14 2004, 02:49 AM
Now, wait just a minute here ... seems to me that it's not surprising that not a hell of a lot of info has developed on what he's been doing so far. Shit, it would probably take a day or two to track down what somebody'd been doing in the states for the last couple months ... tracking down sources in Iraq undoubtedly is going to take more time.

I'm not entirely sure that even "was in U.S. custody/wasn't in U.S. custody" "was in Iraqi custody/wasn't in Iraqi custody" "no we didn't tell his parents he was in U.S. custody/yes we did but we were mistaken" is doublespeak at this point in time ... but it comes a damned site closer to smelling pretty stinky than the absence of a lot of information on his activities for the last couple months.

Unless, of course, you are Buff ... in which case, you can call anything that doesn't present everything in the light of your own ideaology as doublespeak.
Hey don't drag me into this -- I didn't saw his head off.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Mike AI@May 14 2004, 09:37 AM
Berg's father said Thursday his son was someone who simply wanted to "help people, not to hurt anyone." "He was not disrespectful of danger, he just didn't recognize danger in people," Michael Berg said. "The al Qaeda that killed my son didn't know what they were doing. They killed their best friend. Nick was there to build Iraq, not to tear it down."

Are these poorly choosen words? Or a clue?

http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clickabilit...&partnerID=2006 (http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Was+Berg+in+U.S.+custody%3F+Answers+conflict+-+May+14%2C+2004&expire=&urlID=10251404&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F2004%2FWORLD%2F meast%2F05%2F14%2Firaq.berg%2Findex.html&partnerID=2006)
Just a guess but his dad probably just groupthinked Iraq, Muslims, and al Qaeda.

[Buff]

Originally posted by Colin+May 14 2004, 08:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ May 14 2004, 08:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Mike AI@May 14 2004, 09:37 AM
Berg's father said Thursday his son was someone who simply wanted to "help people, not to hurt anyone." "He was not disrespectful of danger, he just didn't recognize danger in people," Michael Berg said. "The al Qaeda that killed my son didn't know what they were doing. They killed their best friend. Nick was there to build Iraq, not to tear it down."

Are these poorly choosen words? Or a clue?

http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clickabilit...&partnerID=2006 (http://cnn.worldnews.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Was+Berg+in+U.S.+custody%3F+Answers+conflict+-+May+14%2C+2004&expire=&urlID=10251404&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fedition.cnn.com%2F2004%2FWORLD%2F meast%2F05%2F14%2Firaq.berg%2Findex.html&partnerID=2006)
Just a guess but his dad probably just groupthinked Iraq, Muslims, and al Qaeda.[/b][/quote]
I don't know what to think except that I was thoroughly grossed-out by the beheading. It takes a very special person to have the will (as Colonel Kurtz said in Apocalypse Now) to inflict that kind of horror. Special in a negative way.



Last edited by Buff at May 14 2004, 08:57 AM

[XXXPhoto]

Nice to see others noticing holes and such. Kinda disappointed with the news services on this one; doesn't seem to be much practical investigative reporting going on...

Why the Israeli stamp? Was that just one point in his travel getting to Iraq or was he staying there? No answers, it's just glossed over and ignored.

Still no information from people he knew in Iraq, the gov or his parents about any work he actually did in his months over there...

Can't comment on the video as I've made choice not to watch it. I can point out by the timeline that it was a little under a month between his disappearance and time his body was found. To me, that indicates his captors had ample time to use whatever means they wished to exert control over his behavior.