moderate muslims - do they exist?

[Rolo]

I talked with a former muslim a few months ago - he was telling me that the moderate muslim is a myth... the koran´s view on humans as either being muslim or infidel leaved no compromise - islam and real democracy/freedom as we know could not coexist - therefor the view that muslims could be moderated and integrated into a western style democracy/freedom was utopia.

The more I think and read about what he said, the more I have too agree... ex.

where are the movement of moderate muslims?
why do all muslims countries have anti western and jewish propaganda? (even those who are supposed to be "democratic")
why are there problems all the places where muslims have to coexist with other religions or ideologies?

I still think freedom is worth fighting for in the middleeast, but not freedom for "moderate muslims", but for people who want to live without religion as the ruling force.

[Rolo]

Interesting book on the subject:

http://s1-images.amazon.com/images/A/Y04Y2384692Y1766777.0001.04.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


From Book News, Inc. Warraq, a former Muslim who now lives in Ohio, examines the major principles of the world's second largest religion, presenting a less than flattering picture of the faith and its followers. He analyzes factors that influenced the writing of the Koran, chronicles the rise of Islam, and criticizes the dark side of the faith with chapters on the Salman Rushdie affair, the oppression of women in Muslim society, the authoritarian nature of Islamic law, and the suppression of basic rights in many Muslim countries.

http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchan...5544738#details (http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y04Y2384692Y1766777/qid=1084365100/sr=1-/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1/104-7060538-5544738#details)

[chodadog]

Of course there are. There were a few muslims in my classes when i was in highschool. They never preached their beliefs to me. They had theirs, i had mine, and we respected eachother. I don't doubt that there are millions upon millions of others just like him and his family.

[OldJeff]

Originally posted by Rolo@May 12 2004, 08:42 AM

I still think freedom is worth fighting for in the middleeast, but not freedom for "moderate muslims", but for people who want to live without religion as the ruling force.
I am more interested in Freeing the US from the fundamentalist Christian ruling force

[Rolo]

chodadog, Do you know how they feel about the US and the western world today in 2004?



Last edited by Rolo at May 12 2004, 06:27 AM

[Buff]

Originally posted by OldJeff+May 12 2004, 08:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (OldJeff @ May 12 2004, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Rolo@May 12 2004, 08:42 AM

I still think freedom is worth fighting for in the middleeast, but not freedom for "moderate muslims", but for people who want to live without religion as the ruling force.
I am more interested in Freeing the US from the fundamentalist Christian ruling force[/b][/quote]
How many people have been executed by the state for being anti-christian in the United States of America in the last... I dunno, 200 years?

I await your reply.

[Rolo]

Originally posted by OldJeff@May 12 2004, 06:14 AM
I am more interested in Freeing the US from the fundamentalist Christian ruling force
Yes, and as we do in the democratic part of the world, then we can vote them out of office.... in the middle east we have to use bullets - unfortunally.

[chodadog]

Originally posted by Rolo@May 12 2004, 06:23 AM
chodadog, Do you know how they feel about the US and the western world today in 2004?
We actually did talk about that. He wasn't fond of the US. He said he didn't like their stance on the situation in Israel. This was from a few years ago. Pre-911 stuff. He wasn't a fan of US foreign policy, but he didn't want to kill americans, either.

[Mike AI]

There are moderate muslims, however they are not the overwhelming majority we are told about - especially in the middle east.

The average person's life in the middle east is pretty depressing. They are the poorest of the poor, and have no power and no ability to make their lives better. They are brainwashed at an early age and are told the outside world is who has made their lives so miserable.

They are being repressed by other Muslims, but are too ignorant to realize it and are brainwashed into pointing their nager to the western world with religion as being their excuse.

[OldJeff]

Originally posted by Buff+May 12 2004, 09:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Buff @ May 12 2004, 09:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -OldJeff@May 12 2004, 08:14 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Rolo@May 12 2004, 08:42 AM

I still think freedom is worth fighting for in the middleeast, but not freedom for "moderate muslims", but for people who want to live without religion as the ruling force.
I am more interested in Freeing the US from the fundamentalist Christian ruling force
How many people have been executed by the state for being anti-christian in the United States of America in the last... I dunno, 200 years?

I await your reply.[/b][/quote]
You are reading way too much into what I wrote Buff. No where did I compare one to the other. I will say it simpler.

I don't give a rats ass about what happens in the middle east and what they do to their people. (and neither does the US government)

I am much more concerned with having fundamentalist religious values shoved down my throat here in the states.

The middle east has been a shithole for the last 1,000 years, and will continue to be for another 1,000.

We should either get the fuck out of there for good (including Isreal) or just nuke the whole fucking mess.

You CAN NOT change the core beliefs of an entire culture. You can either ignore it, or irradicate it.

[Almighty Colin]

Islam declared war on the western world 1400 years ago. They've never really stopped. It's coming and it knows no boundaries. Think it's all about certain nation's policies? If you are not a Muslim you live in the world of Dar al Harb, the "world of the sword". Infidels will die. The war is coming and it's probably coming to you. It's coming to the US, to Russia, to Canada and to Australia. It's coming with bio-weapons, nukes, and anything else they can get their hands on. Is there any doubt? The US is just the latest symbol of the west – the Great Satan. It won’t be the last.

What really slowed Islam's conquests down was the rise of western learning. Thy didn't participate in the scientific revolution. They didn't participate in the political changes that happened in the west. They stopped sending emissaries to the western nations for hundreds of years. They stopped producing technological goods and instead began to purchase them.

As a result of that, Islam is facing a severe crisis, a crisis that was exacerbated by the fall of the Ottoman Empire. One in which many of them perceive that Islamic society is way down in the pecking order. Many blame it on Israel, they blame it on the US, they blame it on Britain, they blame it on Judaism and they blame it on Christianity. There's a much longer list than that. Instead they should blame their own inwardness, their lack of desire to participate in western politics for so long and their ignoring the scientific revolution.

I don't think standard of living will solve the basic issue in the Middle East - that many want Islam to be the center of power in the world and many are willing to die for it to happen. It's not right. It's not wrong. It's just the way the world is.

One last thing. They blow stuff up, they get respect. Some of them have figured that out. The higher the death toll, the greater the respect.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Rolo@May 12 2004, 08:42 AM
I talked with a former muslim a few months ago - he was telling me that the moderate muslim is a myth... the koran´s view on humans as either being muslim or infidel leaved no compromise - islam and real democracy/freedom as we know could not coexist - therefor the view that muslims could be moderated and integrated into a western style democracy/freedom was utopia.

The more I think and read about what he said, the more I have too agree... ex.

where are the movement of moderate muslims?
why do all muslims countries have anti western and jewish propaganda? (even those who are supposed to be "democratic")
why are there problems all the places where muslims have to coexist with other religions or ideologies?

I still think freedom is worth fighting for in the middleeast, but not freedom for "moderate muslims", but for people who want to live without religion as the ruling force.
moderate muslims exist!

I lived in student hostel in Leningrad with palestinians, trained by KGB,
and they didn't wanna kill russians(unless they were jews)
I call them moderate muslims
;-))))

I beat the living shit out of one and no KGB training helped him...
;-)))

[CuriousToyBoy]

IMHO all religion and cultures have a lot to answer for, big and small alike...

And EVERY one of them have their own particular brand of fanatics ...

Islam has it's Jihads

Hitler set new benchmarks

Church of England had the Crusades

Christians also had their witchhunts

Serbs had their ethic cleansing

The Croats also had theirs

Many African nations thought "fuck it" and joined the cleansing party

Branch Davidians had their Waco

Kool Aid was drunk in Jonestown

.....

Shit, I'm beginning to sound like Michael Moore.

:barfon: