what are your views on Outsourcing of Jobs?

[Winetalk.com]

I have a feeling that "Hawks" and "Doves" have different opinions.

My feelings are mixed, I don't know what is the lesser evil....

[Almighty Colin]

Do you mean overseas outsourcing to countries with low wages?

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Colin@Mar 5 2004, 07:51 AM
Do you mean overseas outsourcing to countries with low wages?
yes, this one

[wig]

you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Government can put the end to it....and they will if Dems are elcted

[Dianna Vesta]

I have not outsourced fulltime overseas but I’m thinking about it. In the past few years I’ve had some real nightmares. You’d think that prices would go down but they have not and if you find someone that has decent prices then be prepared to wait forever.

I posted something about Adult Outsourcing and wondered if anyone used these people. The prices are almost to low to be true but if the economy in Asia sucks then I guess it can be true.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Mar 5 2004, 08:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Mar 5 2004, 08:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Colin@Mar 5 2004, 07:51 AM
Do you mean overseas outsourcing to countries with low wages?
yes, this one[/b][/quote]
All other things being equal, you'd be crazy not to. They are not equal though. There is more risk in dealing with third-world companies. For one,
it seems more difficult to assess the reputation of,say, an Indian company than a US one. Of course, there are charlatans and poorly run companies everywhere.

You also have less - if any - legal recourse in many countries.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Two :okthumb: :okthumb:

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Dianna Vesta@Mar 5 2004, 08:47 AM
I have not outsourced fulltime overseas but I’m thinking about it. In the past few years I’ve had some real nightmares. You’d think that prices would go down but they have not and if you find someone that has decent prices then be prepared to wait forever.

I posted something about Adult Outsourcing and wondered if anyone used these people. The prices are almost to low to be true but if the economy in Asia sucks then I guess it can be true.
the average programmer in USA gets $80,000 a year,
the average Indian Programmer gets $16,000 a year.

1/5th or 20% from USA counterpart

[wig]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Mar 5 2004, 08:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Mar 5 2004, 08:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Government can put the end to it....and they will if Dems are elcted[/b][/quote]
I think you are right to an extent...

....but, sooner or later gov't's will be forced to compete for capital at unprecedented levels.

where there is a will there is a way and there is a will for progress, productivity and efficiency.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Colin+Mar 5 2004, 08:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Mar 5 2004, 08:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Two :okthumb: :okthumb:[/b][/quote]
oh really?
than how come it's impossible to ship wine to Georgia???

you completely disregard the power of regulator's body.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by wig+Mar 5 2004, 08:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (wig @ Mar 5 2004, 08:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Mar 5 2004, 08:25 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Government can put the end to it....and they will if Dems are elcted
I think you are right to an extent...

....but, sooner or later gov't's will be forced to compete for capital at unprecedented levels.

where there is a will there is a way and there is a will for progress, productivity and efficiency.[/b][/quote]
wig, all of the above result in higher unemployment and those unemployed DO vote...

Unemployment also leads to disinflation and reduction in values of the assets..
it's a double edged sword

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Mar 5 2004, 08:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Mar 5 2004, 08:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Colin@Mar 5 2004, 08:51 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Two :okthumb: :okthumb:
oh really?
than how come it's impossible to ship wine to Georgia???

you completely disregard the power of regulator's body.[/b][/quote]
Define impossible. I've shipped wine to places where it is not allowed. Wig is including black markets.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Colin+Mar 5 2004, 08:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Mar 5 2004, 08:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Mar 5 2004, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by -Colin@Mar 5 2004, 08:51 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Two :okthumb: :okthumb:
oh really?
than how come it's impossible to ship wine to Georgia???

you completely disregard the power of regulator's body.
Define impossible. I've shipped wine to places where it is not allowed. Wig is including black markets.[/b][/quote]
impossible=potential jail time for breaking the law...

I don't think that either you or wig are THAT thirsty
;-)))

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Mar 5 2004, 08:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Mar 5 2004, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Mar 5 2004, 08:25 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Government can put the end to it....and they will if Dems are elcted
I think you are right to an extent...

....but, sooner or later gov't's will be forced to compete for capital at unprecedented levels.

where there is a will there is a way and there is a will for progress, productivity and efficiency.
wig, all of the above result in higher unemployment and those unemployed DO vote...

Unemployment also leads to disinflation and reduction in values of the assets..
it's a double edged sword[/b][/quote]
Serge,

JR and I outsource some programming jobs to India. We make more profit. Some of that profit goes into hiring customer service in the US. Some goes to a US hosting company. Some goes to a US graphics artist. Some goes to US tradeshow operators. A lot goes to the US government via taxes.

Some goes to the Mercedes dealership and there's where the real value begins. Once it's in the hands of the Mercedes dealer each dollar gets circulated in the economy an additional seven times per year (current money velocity).

More money in my hands is more money in the American economy.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Mar 5 2004, 08:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Mar 5 2004, 08:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Colin@Mar 5 2004, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Mar 5 2004, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by -Colin@Mar 5 2004, 08:51 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Two :okthumb: :okthumb:
oh really?
than how come it's impossible to ship wine to Georgia???

you completely disregard the power of regulator's body.
Define impossible. I've shipped wine to places where it is not allowed. Wig is including black markets.
impossible=potential jail time for breaking the law...

I don't think that either you or wig are THAT thirsty
;-)))[/b][/quote]
As Wig said, it happens. I have proof.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Colin@Mar 5 2004, 09:02 AM

As Wig said, it happens. I have proof.
Pun intended.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Colin+Mar 5 2004, 09:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Mar 5 2004, 09:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Mar 5 2004, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by -wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Mar 5 2004, 08:25 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Government can put the end to it....and they will if Dems are elcted
I think you are right to an extent...

....but, sooner or later gov't's will be forced to compete for capital at unprecedented levels.

where there is a will there is a way and there is a will for progress, productivity and efficiency.
wig, all of the above result in higher unemployment and those unemployed DO vote...

Unemployment also leads to disinflation and reduction in values of the assets..
it's a double edged sword
Serge,

JR and I outsource some programming jobs to India. We make more profit. Some of that profit goes into hiring customer service in the US. Some goes to a US hosting company. Some goes to a US graphics artist. Some goes to US tradeshow operators. A lot goes to the US government via taxes.

Some goes to the Mercedes dealership and there's where the real value begins. Once it's in the hands of the Mercedes dealer each dollar gets circulated in the economy an additional seven times per year (current money velocity).

More money in my hands is more money in the American economy.[/b][/quote]
tell that to unemployed USA programmer who wishes HIS money circulate 7 times too...
all is nice and dandy in your reasoning except...
$$ you send to India are taken OUT of USA economy...
USA Economy would be much better off if:
1) you paid wages to US programmer
2) bought Caddilac instead of Mercedes
;-)))

[Dianna Vesta]

It is a double edge sword indeed. Because of free trade I go to buy produce and I have to hunt to buy produce from the US or local Florida. We grow mangoes and avocados here but damn if I can buy a local one from a chain.

I hate the idea of outsourcing but the reality is that it’s cheaper and in most cases less headaches. It sucks.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Mar 5 2004, 09:04 AM
tell that to unemployed USA programmer who wishes HIS money circulate 7 times too...
all is nice and dandy in your reasoning except...
$$ you send to India are taken OUT of USA economy...
USA Economy would be much better off if:
1) you paid wages to US programmer
2) bought Caddilac instead of Mercedes
;-)))
What can I say?

When the automobile began to become popular, my great grandfather worried about the jobs of all the people that took care of the horses.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Dianna Vesta@Mar 5 2004, 09:06 AM
It is a double edge sword indeed. Because of free trade I go to buy produce and I have to hunt to buy produce from the US or local Florida. We grow mangoes and avocados here but damn if I can buy a local one from a chain.

I hate the idea of outsourcing but the reality is that it’s cheaper and in most cases less headaches. It sucks.
YES, it's cheaper...on one edge
and LESS people have buying power to buy those cheap goods on the other edge.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Dianna Vesta@Mar 5 2004, 09:06 AM
I hate the idea of outsourcing but the reality is that it’s cheaper and in most cases less headaches. It sucks.
I love it.

Profit = revenue - expenses

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Colin+Mar 5 2004, 09:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Mar 5 2004, 09:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Serge_Oprano@Mar 5 2004, 09:04 AM
tell that to unemployed USA programmer who wishes HIS money circulate 7 times too...
all is nice and dandy in your reasoning except...
$$ you send to India are taken OUT of USA economy...
USA Economy would be much better off if:
1) you paid wages to US programmer
2) bought Caddilac instead of Mercedes
;-)))
What can I say?

When the automobile began to become popular, my great grandfather worried about the jobs of all the people that took care of the horses.[/b][/quote]
what's your suggestion?
US programmer should accept the wages of the Indian programmer to stay competitive?

[sarettah]

:cryin: sorry, I'm a programmer......

Difference between me and the guy in India is with me, you can bring your half baked idea and your 5 million "enhancements" that you have already decided you want, a one paragraph description of the whole thing and you will end up with a working system.

That is because (especially at the independent level) the U.S. programmer is expected to be 1. A systems designer, 2. A program designer, 3. A database designer, 4. a coder, 5. a tester, 6. your personal fucking hardware technician for the rest of your measly life, 7. your kicking bag for the life of the application.

The programmer from India is going to deliver your project to exactly your specs, which requires you to first either be a systems designer or hire one, secondly for you to be a program designer or have hired one, 3 for you to be a database designer or have hired one... 4 for you to know a fucking thing or two about hardware or have an IT staff that knows...

The Indian guy will code and test it for you....

It's called "Value Added"



:okthumb:

[Rolo]

Outsourcing jobs is the price we have to pay if we want a global economy... in fact outsourcing jobs to other countries have always been here, in old time it was just mainly expensive goods, because it was expensive to transport goods from one part of the world to the other, however within the last 30 years we have seen technology making it cheaper and cheaper to transport goods on the world oceans.

And now due to the low cost of communication which the internet provide, then its time to outsource many of the office type jobs - callcenters, bookeeping, programmers, designers, etc.

There is no way to stop the outsoucring of jobs - evolution will prove once again, that those who adapt will survive, while those who refuse will disappear... :zoinks:

[wig]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Mar 5 2004, 08:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Mar 5 2004, 08:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Colin@Mar 5 2004, 08:51 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Two :okthumb: :okthumb:
oh really?
than how come it's impossible to ship wine to Georgia???

you completely disregard the power of regulator's body.[/b][/quote]
Serge,

I am not completely disregarding regulators power AND especially their desire to hold on to it.

I am just suggesting that over time this power will devolve.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by sarettah@Mar 5 2004, 09:24 AM
:cryin: sorry, I'm a programmer......

Difference between me and the guy in India is with me, you can bring your half baked idea and your 5 million "enhancements" that you have already decided you want, a one paragraph description of the whole thing and you will end up with a working system.

That is because (especially at the independent level) the U.S. programmer is expected to be 1. A systems designer, 2. A program designer, 3. A database designer, 4. a coder, 5. a tester, 6. your personal fucking hardware technician for the rest of your measly life, 7. your kicking bag for the life of the application.

The programmer from India is going to deliver your project to exactly your specs, which requires you to first either be a systems designer or hire one, secondly for you to be a program designer or have hired one, 3 for you to be a database designer or have hired one... 4 for you to know a fucking thing or two about hardware or have an IT staff that knows...

The Indian guy will code and test it for you....

It's called "Value Added"



:okthumb:
There are overseas TEAMS that are pretty good.

There are great programmers in the US and some really awful ones too. We've had a dozen or so working for us over the years and there is a real range of abilities.

Maybe MikeAI has comments. He has a bunch on staff.

[wig]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Mar 5 2004, 08:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Mar 5 2004, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Mar 5 2004, 08:25 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Government can put the end to it....and they will if Dems are elcted
I think you are right to an extent...

....but, sooner or later gov't's will be forced to compete for capital at unprecedented levels.

where there is a will there is a way and there is a will for progress, productivity and efficiency.
wig, all of the above result in higher unemployment and those unemployed DO vote...

Unemployment also leads to disinflation and reduction in values of the assets..
it's a double edged sword[/b][/quote]
Whatever it leads to does not change the fact that it is likely to happen. ;-))

[Dianna Vesta]

Originally posted by Colin+Mar 5 2004, 09:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Mar 5 2004, 09:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Dianna Vesta@Mar 5 2004, 09:06 AM
I hate the idea of outsourcing but the reality is that it’s cheaper and in most cases less headaches. It sucks.
I love it.

Profit = revenue - expenses[/b][/quote]
Sometimes I wonder. There are days I think it’s growing pains as we herald into the future and the world becomes smaller then there are days when I wonder wtf? … and it’s almost scary to me.

I have friends all over the world and it’s nothing for us to say, “Yeah lets have dinner soon.”

The part that scares me most about outsourcing or free trade is that you don’t really know what could happen. The government can barely pay attention to its own shit much less the safety issues in lets say produce… they could be spraying all kinds of shit on. There’s also the fact that we have so many farmers (executives, professionals and trades people) out of work and going bankrupt. I think there should be a limit to all of this…sorry but that’s a fact.

lol- but damnit I'll probably hire overseas.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Mar 5 2004, 09:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Mar 5 2004, 09:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 08:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
Government can put the end to it....and they will if Dems are elcted[/b][/quote]
Then the companies will merely leave the US. And what kind of laws do you pass in order to stop the outsourcing of information i.e. graphics and helpdesk employees?

It's a cycle. When someone in China can make jeans for less than someone in America can, then the price drops and more people in America can afford jeans.

[wig]

Americans just need to face a few simple facts...

Education is key. We have too much supply of low skilled workers.

Their choice is either to cry to Gov't for protection or gain more skill.

No doubt, most will cry.

Where does that leave the US in the near term? hmmmm.

[Dianna Vesta]

Originally posted by wig@Mar 5 2004, 09:41 AM
Americans just need to face a few simple facts...

Education is key. We have too much supply of low skilled workers.

Their choice is either to cry to Gov't for protection or gain more skill.

No doubt, most will cry.

Where does that leave the US in the near term? hmmmm.
And to pick up from another thread created by Colin on eating less…

Americans, for the most part are unhealthy and lazy.

[chodadog]

Right now, i'm using a programmer from Romania. He's great. Perfect english, and i don't have to get too technical (which is great, because i don't know shit when it comes to programming).

But to be honest, i'd rather be hiring local programmers. But my budget is shoestring, to say the least, and right now i'm doing what i've got to do. I think at a later stage, when i upgrade the system (already have ideas to improve it, depending on how things go), i'll get a local programmer to do the job. But until then, it's good ol' eastern Europe for me.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Dianna Vesta@Mar 5 2004, 09:36 AM
The part that scares me most about outsourcing or free trade is that you don’t really know what could happen.
Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate leads to suffering

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by wig@Mar 5 2004, 09:41 AM
Where does that leave the US in the near term?
More Democrats?

[Rolo]

I do not know, if people in the west are ready to really compete with 3rd world people - I mean it will change their lifes forever... ex. no more high taxed goverments, people always in somekind of education improving their skills, no more short work days and long vacations etc...

My bet is that politians will use outsourcing to scare people into voting for them, but they will not try to cure it, because if they did, then it would mean less power to the politicians.

[wig]

Originally posted by Colin+Mar 5 2004, 10:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Mar 5 2004, 10:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 09:41 AM
Where does that leave the US in the near term?
More Democrats?[/b][/quote]
I would agree.

I am with you on the politics of it all... mix it up and keep it difficult to get anything done. :okthumb:

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by wig@Mar 5 2004, 10:34 AM
I am with you on the politics of it all... mix it up and keep it difficult to get anything done. :okthumb:
Exactly.

[sarettah]

If you can get the same quality product at a lower price then you should go for it. Doesn't matter if it is a TV, Car, Stereo, House or programmer. The maerket will decide the value.

In the long run, global competition is good for the product and good for the market.

Case in point, the automobile sector:

After WWII, we rebuilt Japan's industrial sector pretty much from scratch, so, coming out of the 40's Japan was working out of brand new factories while we were working out of old factories. During the 50's and 60's Japanese products were considered crap, laughable to see the "made in Japan" on a product. In the early 70's during the various oil crisises that we experienced, the push for more fuel economy opened the US market to smaller more fuel efficient Japanese cars. At first, these cars were considered crap, but by the late 70's, US manufacturers were scrambling to catch up. Meanwhile, Japanese auto production improved and their cars started to get a good reputation in the U.S.. The american auto manufacturers took a beating at the hands of the Japanese manufacturers for a few years there.

But, as the quality of Japanese autos improved and the skill of their workforce grew, so did the wages they were earning, and the lifestyle they demanded got higher. By the mid 80's, it was cheaper to build Japanese cars in the U.S. and several of the manufacturers moved their production to the states for cheaper labor and more market availability. With the upshot being that the US automobile manufacturing segment ended up doing ok. Difference is that instead of building GM's, Fords and Chryslers, many are building Toyotas, Hondas and Datsuns, but they are building them in the US.

What goes around, comes around.


edited in: after I wrote that mess, I went and googled and came up with this:

http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/ar...-451002,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/article/0,9171,1101030519-451002,00.html)

looks like a fairly accurate accessment of the current situation in re Cars.




Last edited by sarettah at Mar 5 2004, 11:38 AM

[Mike AI]

Serge, I am not sure how I feel either. Part of me agrees with WIG, this is the part that beleives in true market capitalism.

However, I have some potential issues with National Defense, and loyalty to fellow Americans.

In todays world, it is legal, so thus businesses almost have to outsource to remain competative.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 5 2004, 12:16 PM
Serge, I am not sure how I feel either. Part of me agrees with WIG, this is the part that beleives in true market capitalism.

However, I have some potential issues with National Defense, and loyalty to fellow Americans.

In todays world, it is legal, so thus businesses almost have to outsource to remain competative.
yeap, it's interesting to see if benefits outweight the drawbacks and vice versa...
I guess the Jury is still out

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Mar 5 2004, 01:37 PM
yeap, it's interesting to see if benefits outweight the drawbacks and vice versa...
I guess the Jury is still out
Outsourcing is the cover story in this weeks TIME. I haven't had TIME to read it yet though. :D

[Almighty Colin]

sarettah,

Great summary on the automobile sector. :okthumb:

[Buff]

1. Outsourcing lowers production costs for businesses.

2. Lower production costs lead to lower product prices as businesses compete.

3. This means more purchasing power for consumers (less money spent for same goods/services).

4. This means domestics who were laid off due to outsourcing can vie for these saved dollars.

[Dravyk]

I've contributed in my small way to the GNP of many different countries. :)

Graphic desingers in US, UK, Russia. Programmers from US, Canada, Israel. Had employees from Australia in the past. And it's not always the money but also how good are they? If they can do the job effectively and we can communicate easily, doesn't matter to me where they are. If I save some coin in the process, that's a bonus.

And It swings both ways, if they suck, being in the US doesn't help them either!

[JR]

Originally posted by wig@Mar 5 2004, 05:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
exactly.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by JR+Mar 5 2004, 02:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JR @ Mar 5 2004, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 05:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
exactly.[/b][/quote]
Water does too ... therefore in many instances man develops means of rechanneling that water.

[JR]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy+Mar 5 2004, 11:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PornoDoggy @ Mar 5 2004, 11:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -JR@Mar 5 2004, 02:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 05:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
exactly.
Water does too ... therefore in many instances man develops means of rechanneling that water.[/b][/quote]
not when the cost/benefit ratio does not justify it.

[SykkBoy]

Hmmm, if I can hire a competant Indian programmer for $16K per year at the same skillset level as a US-based one and save that kind of money, I can buy more clothes (that are most likely produced in third-world countries via cheap labor) and buy more electronic goods that are most likely built via cheap foriegn labor (perhaps Mexico) and I can brag about being a good American while waving my US flag that is probably made in China by cheap labor...



Last edited by SykkBoy at Mar 5 2004, 03:09 PM

[wig]

Originally posted by JR+Mar 5 2004, 02:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JR @ Mar 5 2004, 02:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -PornoDoggy@Mar 5 2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by -JR@Mar 5 2004, 02:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 05:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
exactly.
Water does too ... therefore in many instances man develops means of rechanneling that water.
not when the cost/benefit ratio does not justify it.[/b][/quote]
capitalist pig. you should be flogged for your greed. you could not possibly be an honest person.

you have no appreciation for the rechanneling of your progress for the better good of the less fortunate.

everybody deserves their fair slice of the american way.

:ph34r:

[wig]

Originally posted by SykkBoy@Mar 5 2004, 03:08 PM
Hmmm, if I can hire a competant Indian programmer for $16K per year at the same skillset level as a US-based one and save that kind of money, I can buy more clothes (that are most likely produced in third-world countries via cheap labor) and buy more electronic goods that are most likely built via cheap foriegn labor (perhaps Mexico) and I can brag about being a good American while waving my US flag that is probably made in China by cheap labor...
the only thing you could brag about in this scenario is that you would be Labret's poster boy for the indoctrinated consumer.

on the contrary, you could save the money, use it to invest in other aspects of you business or in other businesses.

the businessmen and women making the outsourcing decisions do not contemplate such fanciful uses for the proceeds.

[JR]

Funny how we want globalization...





but just the good parts.


if American jobs are lost to cheaper markets... thats part of the deal. you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs
:rokk:

[wig]

Originally posted by JR@Mar 5 2004, 04:00 PM
Funny how we want globalization...





but just the good parts.


if American jobs are lost to cheaper markets... thats part of the deal. you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs
:rokk:
amen to that.

ppl have tolearn to take the good with the bad.

[Almighty Colin]

:okthumb:

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by JR+Mar 5 2004, 02:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JR @ Mar 5 2004, 02:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -PornoDoggy@Mar 5 2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by -JR@Mar 5 2004, 02:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--wig@Mar 5 2004, 05:12 AM
you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.
exactly.
Water does too ... therefore in many instances man develops means of rechanneling that water.
not when the cost/benefit ratio does not justify it.[/b][/quote]
FYI - I don't have an opinion on this issue. I know enough about micro and macro economics to microwave my macroni and cheese for lunch.

I wasn't advocating that anyone "rechannel the water" in this instance. However, it's very likely that some attempts will be made to do so. After all, a cost/benefit ratio is subjective and open to interpretation.

I think it's far more likely that one of the two major parties will annouce that they are pro-pornography than they are to announce that American workers just have to get used to the idea of 3rd world wages.

[Hell Puppy]

Very mixed opinions here as well....

On one hand, I'm tired of American dollars going to other countries. My knee jerk reaction is cut everyone off cold except for the handful of countries that supported the Iraq war. Everyone else can go to France and Germany for their handouts.

However, historically inhibiting free trade has NOT improved the overall economy.

The current trends with India also give me some practical concerns. Outsourcing help desk and call centers to India....do we really want the same level of communication with someone who is supposed to be helping us that we get while ordering at Dairy Queen or asking for a Cherry Slurpee at the Quickie Mart? Customers will vote with their feet...

On the technical side, it generally takes a team of 2-3 indians to do the job of one experienced American. They require specific instructions and specs and cannot look at the big picture or be creative. Aministrative and project management chores almost always have to stay here, they're not very good at that either. Also, the company who lets all of the engineering expertise end up in India or anywhere else outside the U.S. is doomed. Intellectual property must also be kept here, it isn't easily defended elsewhere.

With all of that said, outsourcing has it's place. As usual though with any innovation, American business has a tendancy to over do it while blindly looking at the bottom line. When there are repercussions with lost customers and other problems, they typically pull it back to a reasonable level.

[masterp74]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 5 2004, 09:16 AM
Serge, I am not sure how I feel either. Part of me agrees with WIG, this is the part that beleives in true market capitalism.

However, I have some potential issues with National Defense, and loyalty to fellow Americans.

In todays world, it is legal, so thus businesses almost have to outsource to remain competative.
we're turning into a global economy faster than we expect. I figure the US will catch on in about 6 months then open more doors for US to genrate rev. until then the whole nation will suffer and lose ground on global market share

[Rolo]

So, why are people complaining about how other countries are taking their jobs? Why not look at your own country and ask - what can it do to create NEW jobs, and WHY have almost every politician in the western world not done this yet?

Our forefathers did not create the world we live in by complaining - they went out there and fought for it!

[Carrie]

It's very simple.
An Indian can live on $200/mo for full-time work.
An American can not.

It has nothing to do with the gov't, with governors deciding whether stuff gets outsourced or not, blah blah blah...
American workers are more expensive. Period.

There are no doors to open or even doors to shut... until the current haven of outsourcing (India) starts getting used to the income and things start getting more expensive over there, making the workers there demand more money, folks with the ability to do so are going to hire an Indian for less than 1/4th that they'd pay for an American to do the job.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by Rolo@Mar 6 2004, 05:01 AM
So, why are people complaining about how other countries are taking their jobs? Why not look at your own country and ask - what can it do to create NEW jobs, and WHY have almost every politician in the western world not done this yet?

Our forefathers did not create the world we live in by complaining - they went out there and fought for it!
What are they supposed to do?
Tell me please, what can the politicians do to create more $80k per year jobs? Jobs that no one in India/China/Russia can duplicate for their $16k per year salaries?

All of the tax breaks in the world won't help.
New York gave tons of tax breaks to its businesses and still they're leaving in droves (Fulton has been devastated since Nestle picked up and left), same with California and tons of other states... why pay 100 workers $10/hr when you can pay 100 workers $1/hr somewhere else? You'll save yourself $900 per hour by simply moving elsewhere.
What are the politicians supposed to do to combat that?

[Rolo]

What are the politicians supposed to do to combat that?

My short answer would be "Change EVERYTHING", however lets realize a few things:

- jobs which moves from a expensive country to another country will not come back as long as the first country is more expensive. If you want to have new jobs, then you have to CREATE them.

- no matter how cheap labour is in one part of the world, then there are still extra costs, which has little to do with the cheap labour - ex. transportation costs, telecommunication costs etc. those extra costs are following world pricing, and not the local price. This means not all products are good to import - ex. if you need to have made 1.000.000 units in china, then you still need to add transportation, and insurance getting them to the US - sure most of them will still be cheaper, but the bigger the final product is - the more likely it would cost just as much to produce closer to the consumer in a fully automatic factory.

- in time technology will remove more low paying jobs, then what 3rd world countries will take. Ex. If you build a fully automatic factory, which runs 24/7 with a minium of staff, then you can produce cheaper, than any factory employing hundreds of chinese. If you build a fully automatic factory in china, then you would still have to add transportation etc. cost to the final product, so it would make more sense to have that factory placed close to the market.

- raw materials are plenty on most continents, no matter if you live in China or the US you have access to them. And just like factories it pays to have fully automated the process of getting them.

- tax is a local issue, however its a world wide problem... this means that if goverments stop their uncontrolled desire to get taxes, then money will start to move to their regions, and not away as it is now. This would mean more investments local = more local low paying jobs.

- education is one of the best ways to get the tools to learn new things - so why do most of us only attend education in the first part of our life, when we know that world is changing all the time? If your skill is no longer needed, then you need to learn a new skill.

etc.

There are tons of other issues to think about, and a long answer will be that - long.... so I will stick to my short answer - "Change EVERYTHING" :awinky:



Last edited by Rolo at Mar 6 2004, 06:27 AM

[Peaches]

I hate to say it but a lot of Americans priced themselves out of jobs.

I remember going to visit colleges with the kid and being told over and over again that a graduate in CS would be making around $80K a year. Yes, it was a sales pitch, but I know for a fact there were many who were making $60-80K their first year out of college. Add in medical insurance, vacation, profit sharing, 401K and you're looking at a ton o' expenses per employee. When the economy was booming, no one blinked, but obviously when the screws are tightened, you have to find ways to save. The ones in those jobs had already foolishly ramped their living expenses to match their income and those graduating took it as an insult to accept a $30K a year job.

Ditto with the manufacturing business. Unions have their members making $20 an hour to put tab A into tab B. Plus the benefits and again - a sector which literally priced themselves out of jobs.

The recent grocery strike in CA was a perfect example of workers completely unwilling to make concessions in order to keep their jobs. Some of cashiers were making $10-15 an hour, plus benefits. This is for unskilled labor! I don't remember the exact number, but they were being asked to pay more into their health insurance and the amount they were asked to pay would have been a dream figure for those of us who pay for our own insurance. But they didn't care - they didn't want things to change and screw anyone who argued with them. I strongly suspect if these jobs could have been shipped offshore they would have at that point....maybe talk on the phone to your cashier? :awinky:

Fewer and fewer people are going to be getting degrees - colleges are raising their prices at an
extraordinary clip and I know here in GA, the number of elementary, middle and high schools being built is phenomenal, but the colleges aren't expanding to prepare for these kids when they graduate. The very rich with $$$ and the very poor with good minds will be the ones attending college in 10-15 years, IMHO.

Going through the AF situation has been an eye opener. They are meeting their recruiting goals in record time. There are college graduates going in as enlisted. They've graduated with a technical degree, can't find a job and the OCS is filling up at incredible rates. Even then, I know from experience it's VERY hard to get into the AF. In addition, the AF is currently experiencing a 67% reenlistment rate - that's almost unheard of but these guys and girls are realizing getting a guaranteed income, free medical care, food and housing is better than what their counter parts are getting in the private sector.

Again, this is obviously IMHO, but from the outside looking in, it looks like most of the blame can be put on the American worker who wants it all and is unwilling to budge until it's too late. :(

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Rolo@Mar 6 2004, 05:01 AM
Our forefathers did not create the world we live in by complaining - they went out there and fought for it!
Great Idea !!!!!!!

Let's declare war on India !!!! :okthumb:

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Peaches@Mar 6 2004, 09:29 AM
Again, this is obviously IMHO, but from the outside looking in, it looks like most of the blame can be put on the American worker who wants it all and is unwilling to budge until it's too late. :(
So, the American Worker demanding higher wages is causing the problem ??

Not the American "bosses" demanding to hold on to more of the profits ??

If you check around, you will find that when a U.S. company begins outsourcing, they don't generally lower their prices. Which means that the owners are paying less for their product and selling it for the same or higher price to the consumer and pocketing a higher return on their investment.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by sarettah+Mar 6 2004, 12:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sarettah @ Mar 6 2004, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Peaches@Mar 6 2004, 09:29 AM
Again, this is obviously IMHO, but from the outside looking in, it looks like most of the blame can be put on the American worker who wants it all and is unwilling to budge until it's too late. :(
So, the American Worker demanding higher wages is causing the problem ??

Not the American "bosses" demanding to hold on to more of the profits ??

If you check around, you will find that when a U.S. company begins outsourcing, they don't generally lower their prices. Which means that the owners are paying less for their product and selling it for the same or higher price to the consumer and pocketing a higher return on their investment.[/b][/quote]
The companies are going to make a profit no matter what. Are they lowering their prices? Probably not. Are they keeping them the same? Probably. And let's not forget, increasing your profits is not a bad thing - your stock holders especially appreciate it :)

When the economy was kicking butt, many many people WERE making more than they were worth. Now that things aren't so rosey, they want the company to suck it up entirely and let them continue to make their high wages. This leads to outsourcing and likely entire companies moving offshore.

Tuffruff who posts here sometimes :awinky: was talking about how his union contract actually gives MORE money to the workers when the economy has a downturn. :zoinks:

Do all employees and companies follow this train of though? Of course not. But employees demanding high pay for unskilled jobs are a huge contributing factor to outsourcing jobs, IMHO.



Last edited by Peaches at Mar 6 2004, 12:35 PM

[Rolo]

Originally posted by sarettah@Mar 6 2004, 08:03 AM
Let's declare war on India !!!! :okthumb:
When we are done with the Middle East, and have secured oil prices + dollar as the world currency, then we can make a few strategic factory bombings in Asia.... Bush needs your vote to make it happen :nyanya:

[Rolo]

American workers demanding higher wages is ok... hard to blame evolution on anybody in particular, but its ok to blame those who refuses to adapt. The cat is out of the bag...