Scientists. The new gods.

[Almighty Colin]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/01/28...atter.new.reut/ (http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/01/28/matter.new.reut/)

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Scientists said on Wednesday they had created a new form of matter and predicted it could help lead to the next generation of superconductors for use in electricity generation, more efficient trains and countless other applications.

[Carrie]

How did they create a new form of matter?
They took a gas, supercooled it to nearly 0 Kelvin, and rearranged some electrons... but it's still a gas. Albeit a very *cold* gas, it's still gas, yes?

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 4 2004, 07:59 AM
How did they create a new form of matter?
They took a gas, supercooled it to nearly 0 Kelvin, and rearranged some electrons... but it's still a gas. Albeit a very *cold* gas, it's still gas, yes?
Because there are more than just gases, solids, and liquids. This newly created one, the "fermionic condensate", has strange properties at the quantum level which make it not fit the definition of a "gas".

And of course, you can change the temperature of water and make it a gas. It's not still a liquid just because it once was.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by Colin+Feb 4 2004, 09:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Feb 4 2004, 09:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Carrie@Feb 4 2004, 07:59 AM
How did they create a new form of matter?
They took a gas, supercooled it to nearly 0 Kelvin, and rearranged some electrons... but it's still a gas. Albeit a very *cold* gas, it's still gas, yes?
Because there are more than just gases, solids, and liquids. This newly created one, the "fermionic condensate", has strange properties at the quantum level which make it not fit the definition of a "gas".

And of course, you can change the temperature of water and make it a gas. It's not still a liquid just because it once was.[/b][/quote]
Well sure, but you're not creating new matter when you turn it into a gas.
As far as I was aware there were only 3 types of matter - gases, solids, and liquids.
Well, those are the 3 *states* of matter, I guess that's where I'm getting confuzzled. A "type" of matter could be anything... wood, water, plastic... but then I'd think we'd be talking about compounds.

This is why they are the physicists and not me. :)

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 4 2004, 09:54 AM
As far as I was aware there were only 3 types of matter - gases, solids, and liquids.

That's the high school version.

Sort of like when you learn an electron is a little particle that travels in a circle around a nucleus. In reality, an electron has both wave and particle properties. It's not REALLY a little pill shaped particle with a minus sign on it. That just helps us to deal with it because in our everyday experience, we don't come across anything like an electron which has these strange dual properties.

The way these things are taught probably has a lot to do with what is called the circular method of teaching. You teach one version of the subject and then as you go deeper into the subject you teach another level. I'm not a big fan of this. I think we should teach 5th graders about quantum mechanics and that what they are learning is outdated and approximate models of the true reality.

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by Colin+Feb 4 2004, 07:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Feb 4 2004, 07:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Carrie@Feb 4 2004, 09:54 AM
As far as I was aware there were only 3 types of matter - gases, solids, and liquids.
I think we should teach 5th graders about quantum mechanics and that what they are learning is outdated and approximate models of the true reality.[/b][/quote]
Public education needs more money. Teachers need to be better trained and paid more. Poor kids deserve a decent education too.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack+Feb 5 2004, 10:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ Feb 5 2004, 10:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Colin@Feb 4 2004, 07:04 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Carrie@Feb 4 2004, 09:54 AM
As far as I was aware there were only 3 types of matter - gases, solids, and liquids.
I think we should teach 5th graders about quantum mechanics and that what they are learning is outdated and approximate models of the true reality.
Public education needs more money. Teachers need to be better trained and paid more. Poor kids deserve a decent education too.[/b][/quote]
Parents need to be involved in their children's education. Almost without exception every good public school in the US has high parental involvement and every low performing school has little to none. Teachers are paid the same at both sets of schools and have the same educational requirements.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@Feb 5 2004, 09:05 AM
Teachers need to be better trained
Completely agree. I taught high school for a year and can say this was the number one problem in classrooms. Poor training of the teachers. Most of them were "readers" but not teachers. They could read from the book but were ill equipped to handle questions. They also didn't feel it was their job to have to motivate their students. I guess that's really a philosophical point. I had a conversation with a college professor who also held that view. But me, I feel a teacher should be an instructor on the subject, an instructor on general learning methods and a motivator. A GREAT teacher doesn't even need a textbook to teach. How to attract great teachers? I think, like you said higher salaries but also there has to be a process to use those higher salaries to identify and attract the right people.

Overall teachers were not even that interested in the subjects they were teaching. I can cite examples ;-)

From what I could tell, many were teaching just to bring a second income into their home and were just going through the motions. I didn't see much love for teaching. This was in a brand new school in a middle to upper middle-class district with above average standardized scores.

Of course, what Peaches is saying is dead-on. Parents can have an influence on their children that transcends anything that happens at school. Lots of poor kids with good parents end up with great educations.
Often the difference between kids in the same schools is what happens in the home. I think it likely that kids with higher expectations on them tend to have higher grades.

One problem is that most poor kids have parents who either don't have an inclination, the ability, or the time to instruct their children.

I'm a huge fan of higher standards. Raise the bar.

[OldJeff]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@Feb 5 2004, 09:05 AM
Public education needs more money. Teachers need to be better trained and paid more. Poor kids deserve a decent education too.
Tenure for teachers needs to be disolved, and they need to be held accountable for what the students learn.

Public shools where I live are fine, most have a more than 98% graduation rate, and over 90% go on to higher education.

I wonder if the shitty average of inner city public shools might have something to do with a larger percentage of people that have not held a job for more than 2 weeks in their life, the largest number of broken homes where the father (usually) has no part of the childs life because he has better things to do, like heroin.

Can we please stop blaming government for the percentage of people that simply have no drive or desire to better themselves.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by OldJeff@Feb 5 2004, 09:41 AM
they need to be held accountable for what the students learn.


Absolutely.

[Peaches]

So...what does everyone think about school vouchers? I'm personally for them as I see them as a way tax payers can finally pick a sector where their tax money goes and think public schools will try harder with direct competition, among other pluses. :)

[Almighty Colin]

Here's an experience I had. I took over a high-school class for a teacher for a few weeks. At the end of that period there was a test. My goal was for every student in that class to get an A on the test. This was a rather troublesome class. They were supposed to be poor students. I remember one of the girls in the class had a 17 average and her friend had a 22. They sat next to each other and claimed they were "no good at math".

It's amazing what you can do in a week to boost a teen's confidence and how much that translates in a desire to do well.

Well, as I desired, every student in the class got an A. When the teacher returned she insisted that the students must have cheated and made them retake the test. In the retake there were something like 17 A's and 3 B's. Pretty good and obviously the students knew the material at or pretty close to an A level. Maybe the extra few weeks allowed some of the last minute cramming to be forgotten or maybe it was students in a pissed off mood. Maybe there was a little luck in ALL A's (probably) but the point remains. This same situation has been reported by teachers before and I remember watching a movie about one of them.

Here's the difficulty. If a teacher receives the material they are supposed to teach the students. A good teacher can teach them all well enough to receive A's. The school administration will go nuts though claiming that is impossible. But the fact of the matter is that the material is so simple that the right teacher CAN teach it well enough for every student to understand it at an A level. What they are missing is that they set the bar and they set it to low for good teachers.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 5 2004, 09:49 AM
So...what does everyone think about school vouchers? I'm personally for them as I see them as a way tax payers can finally pick a sector where their tax money goes and think public schools will try harder with direct competition, among other pluses. :)
It's evolution. Competition with culling is the way to go.

Competition between classmates.
Competition between teachers.
Competition between schools.

Not to say I support any particular plan (Bush I, Bush II) but I like the general idea.

A lot of the discussion points can be answered by one's opinion of what the role of education is.

Due to politics some people want to make sure poor students get a fair education. Others are more concerned that the best students get the best education. If everyone gets the same education then of course, the best students are getting an education less than they can handle. So some genius - probably in 19th Century Prussia - decides we need varying levels of classes in our Uber school system. "Advanced placement". "Remedial classes". Then it's realized that some poorer school districts don't even have enough students to warrant having an AP class. Ax the AP class. But, but, but ... Round and round it goes.

The simplest solution is a robot instructor for every student that designs a course based upon their progress. ;-)

[Vick]

Stated it many times but .......
Education begins and ends at home

The education your child receives in school be it public or private is a secondary education to the education your share with your children

That being said I agree that teachers are underpaid and many do not receive proper training in the art of education and for whatever reasons lack motivational skills

The second income is all too true, a couple who are acquaintances of mine were a prime example. She was a school teacher while they planned their family and he furthered his career enough so she could be a stay at home mom

[Vick]

p.s. it is my firm belief that you do not "get" an education

You "take" an education

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Vick@Feb 5 2004, 10:13 AM
Stated it many times but .......
Education begins and ends at home


I agree. What would be optimal though is for kids to receive a great education at home and at school.

What is an "education" though? What is currently taught in the schools can give one the most basic understanding of various area of human knowledge but leaves one well short in skills that are actually useful in the world. But of course,we also have to get enough kids interested in academics so that by the time all the weeding out is down we are left with enough kids interested in biology, physics, medicine, and mathematics to fill our grad schools.

I would like to see a much larger role for apprenticeship in the public school system. Kids learning trades. There is some of this scattered through the US (and the world). There is a program in New York called BOCES which teaches various vocations to students. Not sure how good it is but it's on the right path.

Funny enough though the system seems to work. We have plenty of researchers, academics, auto mechanics, chefs and any other vocation you can think of. When all is said and done, Adam Smith's marketplace mechanism is extremely powerful.

Not every kid can be above average.

[Peaches]

One thing I wish the US public schools would do is have some of the same teachers throughout your schooling.

For instance, the private schools I went to in FL had maybe 5 teachers who taught math. It was a 6 year school (Forms 1-6 which was in essence grades 7-12). You very easily could have had the same math teacher all 6 years. This enabled that teacher to know your strengths and weaknesses, what not to put up with, how far they could push you etc. The problems is that any kind of teacher familiarity is virtually impossible these days with the massively huge schools.

My son was in the gifted programs and the gifted teacher was always the same throughout elementary and middle school (in HS there was no gifted program per se, they just took advanced classes). Those were the teachers that IMHO taught him the most. Granted, it could have been due to a classroom of kids who wanted to learn, but I think a part of it was a constant teacher.

However, transiency in the schools, especially those with lower incomes, will always nullify this. :(

[Vick]

Originally posted by Colin@Feb 5 2004, 10:32 AM
What is an "education" though?
One of the things we agree on is the importance of learning how to learn

To start that (hopefully) unquenchable desire for knowledge - something beyond curiosity but curiosity plays a large role

As odd as it sounds mine started from my Grandmother teaching me to read (comic books) at age 4

That and a lot of outings to various places of interest (even though I may not have found all of them interesting at the time)

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Vick@Feb 5 2004, 10:49 AM
As odd as it sounds mine started from my Grandmother teaching me to read (comic books) at age 4
Haha. The start of my education began with a heavy dose of comic books too.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Colin+Feb 5 2004, 12:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Feb 5 2004, 12:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Vick@Feb 5 2004, 10:49 AM
As odd as it sounds mine started from my Grandmother teaching me to read (comic books) at age 4
Haha. The start of my education began with a heavy dose of comic books too.[/b][/quote]
It's funny - most of the guys I grew up with who were really good at history watched a lot of movies and TV shows involving history while they were growing up. And people say comics, movies and TV aren't good for you. :P

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 5 2004, 11:09 AM

It's funny - most of the guys I grew up with who were really good at history watched a lot of movies and TV shows involving history while they were growing up. And people say comics, movies and TV aren't good for you. :P
When I was in college a woman that my father introduced me to told me that her kid would only read comic books . So she took them away from him. After that, of course, he wouldn't read anything. She asked me what she should do to get him interested in reading. I said "Give him back his comic books".

True story.

[chodadog]

Originally posted by Colin@Feb 5 2004, 07:32 AM
I would like to see a much larger role for apprenticeship in the public school system. Kids learning trades. There is some of this scattered through the US (and the world). There is a program in New York called BOCES which teaches various vocations to students. Not sure how good it is but it's on the right path.
I agree. A few years ago, i lived in Ireland. We lived in a small town (population of about 10 thousand at the time) and there were a few primary schools, 1 public highschool, 1 private highschool, and a tech school.

If you didn't have the money to go to the private school, you had to take a test to get into the public school, as they liked to keep the class numbers down. So, if you didn't rank high enough on the test, or couldn't afford to get into the private school, you were sent to tech school, to learn a trade.

I was really young at the time (my older brother was in his first year of highschool when we left), but i look back at it now and i think it's a great idea. You eliminate the students that aren't interested in going to university and becoming a professional, and you weed out the kids that just aren't capable. Sounds harsh, but like you said, not every kid can be above average.

So by the time these kids are 13 or 14, they've already started an apprenticeship, and by the time they're 17 or 18, they are fully qualified in whatever trade they had chosen. The students that went to highschool have smaller classes, which is a better learning environment. They don't have to deal with students that don't have any intellectual goals (the students that normally disrupt lessons). It's win win.

I live in Australia now, and it pisses me off. Everyone here pushes students towards university.

"You have to graduate highschool or you won't be able to get a job"
"You have to go to university or you'll never amount to anything"

And intentionally or not, i think they're putting across the point that becoming a tradesman is a failure. People are ashamed to become tradesman. There are kids here reaching grade 10 (which is the year they're allowed to legally drop out) and they're being persuaded to stay until the graduate instead of leaving, and getting a 2 year headstart on their apprenticeships.

Tradesman are important. There is no shame in doing a blue collar job, and i think that should be communicated to young people.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by chodadog@Feb 5 2004, 01:16 PM
If you didn't have the money to go to the private school, you had to take a test to get into the public school, as they liked to keep the class numbers down. So, if you didn't rank high enough on the test, or couldn't afford to get into the private school, you were sent to tech school, to learn a trade.
I agree - it's an excellent idea but here in the US, you will NEVER see it fly due to the political correctness that handicaps us.

Right now in GA there are college scholarships which are funded by the lottery. You have to have a B average and maintain a B in college. It pays for tuition with some money for books and fees to GA colleges.

The problem is the kids who normally wouldn't go to college - not just because of the money - anyone who really wants to attend can fund college - but because they don't have the drive or desire to get a degree. They're going because it's free. The high school teachers feel guilty not letting lower income Johnny and June go for free, so they inflate the grades. The last stats I saw said 40% of these scholarship kids lost the scholarship after a year due to poor grades. That means millions of dollars were pissed away on kids who really had no business being in college. :angry:

Teach kids who aren't interested in academics a trade. It seems like such an easy solution....... :(

[Carrie]

Hear hear to all of the above.
I'd love to get Kelsey comic books (I'm a collector and a huge Marvel nut myself) but his little brother shreds nearly everything he touches - even if it's made of metal. We can't wait until we can move back into a bigger house and give them different bedrooms so the little academic can have his library and destructo-boy can have... well... steel furniture? LOL

Colin I agree with you so much about "give him back his comic books". Egads, you don't squelch a love like that, you feed it! And with comic books you could expand into so many different areas... get him some books on Stan Lee, get him some art supplies and some books on how to draw, all kinds of things! It all starts with just a love of something.

Vouchers - thumbs up.

I forget now who said to stop blaming the gov't for everything (Aeon maybe?) but umm... who is to blame? It's the gov't that took away the small hometown schools and pushed the kids out of homeschooling and farmed them into their big public school institutions. It's the gov't that sets the SOLs (Standards of Learning) - and keeps dropping those standards more and more for both the teachers and the students. It's the gov't that creates the environment in which our kids learn in school... zero tolerance, ebonics as a second language, "tolerance" period...
And ultimately it's the gov't that should be held responsible for the results that are coming out of the schools. Shit rolls downhill. If the students aren't doing well, look at the teachers. If the teachers aren't doing well, look at the superintendent and the local school system. If the school system isn't doing well, look at the gov't that is funding it, hiring the superintendents, hiring the teachers, and setting (lowering) the standards.

[Vick]

Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 5 2004, 01:46 PM
Shit rolls downhill. If the students aren't doing well, look at the teachers. If the teachers aren't doing well, look at the superintendent and the local school system. If the school system isn't doing well, look at the gov't that is funding it, hiring the superintendents, hiring the teachers, and setting (lowering) the standards.
You left one out of that equation
Look at the parents who accept substandard educations

You don't, I don't

and in the end it is we who are responsible for the education our children receive

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by Colin+Feb 5 2004, 06:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Feb 5 2004, 06:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Joe Sixpack@Feb 5 2004, 09:05 AM
Teachers need to be better trained
Completely agree. I taught high school for a year and can say this was the number one problem in classrooms. Poor training of the teachers. Most of them were "readers" but not teachers. They could read from the book but were ill equipped to handle questions. They also didn't feel it was their job to have to motivate their students. I guess that's really a philosophical point. I had a conversation with a college professor who also held that view. But me, I feel a teacher should be an instructor on the subject, an instructor on general learning methods and a motivator. A GREAT teacher doesn't even need a textbook to teach. How to attract great teachers? I think, like you said higher salaries but also there has to be a process to use those higher salaries to identify and attract the right people.

Overall teachers were not even that interested in the subjects they were teaching. I can cite examples ;-)

From what I could tell, many were teaching just to bring a second income into their home and were just going through the motions. I didn't see much love for teaching. This was in a brand new school in a middle to upper middle-class district with above average standardized scores.

Of course, what Peaches is saying is dead-on. Parents can have an influence on their children that transcends anything that happens at school. Lots of poor kids with good parents end up with great educations.
Often the difference between kids in the same schools is what happens in the home. I think it likely that kids with higher expectations on them tend to have higher grades.

One problem is that most poor kids have parents who either don't have an inclination, the ability, or the time to instruct their children.

I'm a huge fan of higher standards. Raise the bar.[/b][/quote]
So who decides on the standards? Surely any decent education system must have common standards and curriculum for students across the country. Without real national standards you end up getting situations where individual schools or school districts can decide what can and cannot be taught to students. The end result of this is that you get schools in hillbilly areas that decide that their students don't need to learn about evolution and natural selection in school because the Bible says something different.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@Feb 5 2004, 07:29 PM
The end result of this is that you get schools in hillbilly areas that decide that their students don't need to learn about evolution and natural selection in school because the Bible says something different.
You might want to learn a little more about the facts if you're referring to GA and evolution. B)

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by Peaches+Feb 5 2004, 03:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peaches @ Feb 5 2004, 03:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Joe Sixpack@Feb 5 2004, 07:29 PM
The end result of this is that you get schools in hillbilly areas that decide that their students don't need to learn about evolution and natural selection in school because the Bible says something different.
You might want to learn a little more about the facts if you're referring to GA and evolution. B)[/b][/quote]
Not specifically.

Religious fanatics, usually in Southern states of the USA, have been trying to ban the teaching of evolution in schools for decades.



Last edited by Joe Sixpack at Feb 5 2004, 04:36 PM

[aeon]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@Feb 5 2004, 04:35 PM
Not specifically.

Religious fanatics, usually in Southern states of the USA, have been trying to ban the teaching of evolution in schools for decades.
go to saudi arabia, iran, syria and spout off about religious fanatics indoctrinating education with theological overtones...

get over yer hardon for the US...it's fuckin nationalistic penis envy - you won't do anything other than annoy people...at least with the towel heads you could end up a martyr and serve some purpose.

best of luck -
aeon

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by aeon+Feb 5 2004, 05:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (aeon @ Feb 5 2004, 05:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Joe Sixpack@Feb 5 2004, 04:35 PM
Not specifically.

Religious fanatics, usually in Southern states of the USA, have been trying to ban the teaching of evolution in schools for decades.
...it's fuckin nationalistic penis envy - you won't do anything other than annoy people...[/b][/quote]
Nationalistic penis envy?

Are you under the illusion that I am envious of the USA?

[aeon]

you keep bringing the US up...not I.

best of luck -
aeon

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by aeon@Feb 5 2004, 05:29 PM
you keep bringing the US up...not I.


I'm intrigued... why does that make you think that i am envious of the USA?

If I bring up Afghanistan am I envious of Afghanistan?

I think you may be deluded.

[aeon]

shall I go back and find posts where you mention the US or america?

try predicating your positions on actual logic...you might be amazed.

best of luck -
aeon

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by aeon@Feb 5 2004, 05:38 PM
shall I go back and find posts where you mention the US or america?

try predicating your positions on actual logic...you might be amazed.

best of luck -
aeon
You're evading the point.

You stated that my bringing up the USA in discussion (I am assuming you meant in a critical way) means that I am somehow envious of the USA.

I'm curious as to what led you to that conclusion.

Do you even know where I live?

[aeon]

It's not evading...it's addressing the point - you mentioned you've visited the US - people that visit a place...don't live in that place...

Given a guess...I'd say you live in australia...

Start worrying about the idiocy in your own country first...get it fixed - then what you say might have some merit to the US - I don't care what austalians do...tis not my business....that's what euro poofters and fucked up folks fail to realize...no one cares what you do...you care what we do...go figger eh.

best of luck -
aeon

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by aeon@Feb 5 2004, 05:49 PM
.that's what euro poofters and fucked up folks fail to realize...no one cares what you do...you care what we do...go figger eh.

You've got it wrong.

I discuss the United States because having a discussion with an average American about another country would be like trying to discuss the theory of relativity with a retard. You are largely oblivious to other cultures and ways of life.

You would know naught about the idiocy in my country. So it would be pointless having any sort of discussion with you about it.



Last edited by Joe Sixpack at Feb 5 2004, 06:01 PM

[aeon]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack+Feb 5 2004, 05:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ Feb 5 2004, 05:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--aeon@Feb 5 2004, 05:49 PM
.that's what euro poofters and fucked up folks fail to realize...no one cares what you do...you care what we do...go figger eh.

You've got it wrong.

I discuss the United States because having a discussion with an average American about another country would be like trying to explain the theory of relativity to a retard. You are largely oblivious to other cultures and ways of life.

You would know naught about the idiocy in my country. So it would be pointless having any sort of discussion with you about it.[/b][/quote]
I have no interest in other countries...aside from the one's I'm considering moving too - it's a waste of time and energy...your opinion will end up being nothing...you have no say as it relates to the US...just as I have no say as it relates to australia...or pakistan or zimbabwe but there's an innate dislike for the US involved with non-US citizens...as if their opinion will, in some way, change or influence the US - wont' happen. The US...like any other nation...will do what's in it's best interest - we get more publicity cause we're the top dog...but we're no different than anyone else. We take care of our own existence first...

Because we have rednecks and idiots...everyone else does too.

best of luck -
aeon

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by aeon+Feb 5 2004, 06:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (aeon @ Feb 5 2004, 06:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Joe Sixpack@Feb 5 2004, 05:55 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--aeon@Feb 5 2004, 05:49 PM
.that's what euro poofters and fucked up folks fail to realize...no one cares what you do...you care what we do...go figger eh.

You've got it wrong.

I discuss the United States because having a discussion with an average American about another country would be like trying to explain the theory of relativity to a retard. You are largely oblivious to other cultures and ways of life.

You would know naught about the idiocy in my country. So it would be pointless having any sort of discussion with you about it.
I have no interest in other countries...aside from the one's I'm considering moving too - it's a waste of time and energy...[/b][/quote]
I rest my case.

[aeon]

eventually you'll grow up...and realize - you can't save the world. The more time you spend trying to save strangers...the more the people close to you suffer.

best of luck -
aeon

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by aeon@Feb 5 2004, 06:07 PM
eventually you'll grow up...and realize - you can't save the world. The more time you spend trying to save strangers...the more the people close to you suffer.

What are you on about? I'm not trying to save the world.

This is a message board and I am expressing my views. If you don't like it then argue with me or something but accusing me of being jealous of your country is just ludicrous. Trust me, the LAST thing I am is jealous of the U.S.A. I am quite happy living in Australia.

[aeon]

then congratulations - I'm happy for you...finding US flags burning amusing, or pointing out the flaws of US southerners should be none of your concern...or what the US does in any regards...

go back to your happy existence and stop being concerned with what another country - where you don't live - where your opinions mean shit - does

best of luck -
aeon



Last edited by aeon at Feb 5 2004, 06:18 PM

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by aeon@Feb 5 2004, 06:15 PM
then congratulations - I'm happy for you...finding US flags burning amusing, or pointing out the flaws of US southerners should be none of your concern...or what the US does in any regards...

Are you trying to tell me what I can and cannot discuss on this message board?

hahahaha... if you don't like my posts then that's tough. I'll discuss what I like thank you very much.

[aeon]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack+Feb 5 2004, 06:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ Feb 5 2004, 06:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--aeon@Feb 5 2004, 06:15 PM
then congratulations - I'm happy for you...finding US flags burning amusing, or pointing out the flaws of US southerners should be none of your concern...or what the US does in any regards...

Are you trying to tell me what I can and cannot discuss on this message board?

hahahaha... if you don't like my posts then that's tough. I'll discuss what I like thank you very much.[/b][/quote]
go fuck a kangaroo if you want...doesn't mean you're opinion will have anymore merit than what it does...

a bunch of deluded fuckwits that don't pay taxes here - aren't a part of the US...with some misguided idea they can tell the US what's best or their opinion is any better than any other fluffer that's pissed cause they arent' the top dog.

have at - and enjoy. wasting energy for some people is pleasurable.

best of luck -
aeon

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by aeon+Feb 5 2004, 06:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (aeon @ Feb 5 2004, 06:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Joe Sixpack@Feb 5 2004, 06:24 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--aeon@Feb 5 2004, 06:15 PM
then congratulations - I'm happy for you...finding US flags burning amusing, or pointing out the flaws of US southerners should be none of your concern...or what the US does in any regards...

Are you trying to tell me what I can and cannot discuss on this message board?

hahahaha... if you don't like my posts then that's tough. I'll discuss what I like thank you very much.
go fuck a kangaroo if you want...doesn't mean you're opinion will have anymore merit than what it does...

a bunch of deluded fuckwits that don't pay taxes here - aren't a part of the US...with some misguided idea they can tell the US what's best or their opinion is any better than any other fluffer that's pissed cause they arent' the top dog.

have at - and enjoy. wasting energy for some people is pleasurable.

best of luck -
aeon[/b][/quote]
Seems to me that you are the one wasting energy. If my opinion doesn't matter then why are you pissed off? Hmmmmm....

[aeon]

I'm not pissed - I'm drunk and bored...and you're the living video game.

best of luck -
aeon

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by aeon@Feb 5 2004, 06:36 PM
I'm not pissed - I'm drunk and bored...and you're the living video game.

best of luck -
aeon
GAME OVER!

:nyanya:

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 5 2004, 01:46 PM
Vouchers - thumbs up.

I forget now who said to stop blaming the gov't for everything (Aeon maybe?) but umm... who is to blame? It's the gov't that took away the small hometown schools and pushed the kids out of homeschooling and farmed them into their big public school institutions. It's the gov't that sets the SOLs (Standards of Learning) - and keeps dropping those standards more and more for both the teachers and the students. It's the gov't that creates the environment in which our kids learn in school... zero tolerance, ebonics as a second language, "tolerance" period...
And ultimately it's the gov't that should be held responsible for the results that are coming out of the schools. Shit rolls downhill. If the students aren't doing well, look at the teachers. If the teachers aren't doing well, look at the superintendent and the local school system. If the school system isn't doing well, look at the gov't that is funding it, hiring the superintendents, hiring the teachers, and setting (lowering) the standards.
Where did you get your information? The Timmy McVeigh Foundation for the History of Education?

[aeon]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack+Feb 5 2004, 06:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ Feb 5 2004, 06:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--aeon@Feb 5 2004, 06:36 PM
I'm not pissed - I'm drunk and bored...and you're the living video game.

best of luck -
aeon
GAME OVER!

:nyanya:[/b][/quote]
pussy...

best of luck -
aeon

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by aeon@Feb 5 2004, 09:36 PM
I'm not pissed - I'm drunk and bored...and you're the living video game.

best of luck -
aeon
I think you left out "I'm drunk and bored ...and an absolute waste of cyberbytes."



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Feb 5 2004, 09:43 PM

[aeon]

look - it's gloria steinem (sp?)...go grab a tissue...and come back later.

ughhhh - I hate liberals more than I hate conservatives - at least conservatives are honest about their BS.

best of luck -
aeon

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by aeon@Feb 5 2004, 09:44 PM
look - it's gloria steinem (sp?)...go grab a tissue...and come back later.

ughhhh - I hate liberals more than I hate conservatives - at least conservatives are honest about their BS.

best of luck -
aeon
gloria steinem ?

Is that the fucking best you can do?

I give it a D-.

And that's on a nobody fails curve.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@Feb 5 2004, 06:29 PM

So who decides on the standards? Surely any decent education system must have common standards and curriculum for students across the country. Without real national standards you end up getting situations where individual schools or school districts can decide what can and cannot be taught to students. The end result of this is that you get schools in hillbilly areas that decide that their students don't need to learn about evolution and natural selection in school because the Bible says something different.
It's a good question, Joe. I think higher national standards are good. I think higher standards from teachers is good. I think higher standards by parents is good. It was my experience that students were being treated as uninterested and dull - when in reality most kids were just a small push away from showing an interest in any subject.

The bureaucracy that arises from attempted homogeneity of educational experience in nations of hundreds or tens of millions is a daunting challenge. National education has only been tried for a few centuries and the real mother of all modern education systems, the Prussian system was created in the 19th century. Consider that there wasn't even a printing press until the 15th century. Imagine the limitations on education imposed by having to copy text by hand. There were political restrictions too. From a westerners point of view, until the Treaty of Westphalia the first half of the phrase "national education" was ambiguous.

Do we wish for every school district to have the same standards with an increasingly homogeneous population? Everyone knows the same things and has increasingly similar beliefs?

Should a school district in Kansas be able to teach creation instead of evolution because that is what the people in that community believe or should we properly indoctrinate them? Why shouldn't we have bible study classes in school? What if a school district is 100% Jewish? Should they be able to hold temple in school? If a Detroit suburb is 100% Muslim, should they be able to have a class on the Koran? What if a democratic nation is 85% Christian? Should they be able to stop the teaching of evolution in the schools or should their education be controlled by the minority group known as "the educators"? There's no way to answer all those "shoulds" satisfactorily. I don't think you can resolve all issues of public education, freedom, liberty and democracy and remain consistent.

As you asked above, who should decide such things?



Last edited by Colin at Feb 6 2004, 06:00 AM

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by Colin+Feb 6 2004, 02:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Feb 6 2004, 02:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Joe Sixpack@Feb 5 2004, 06:29 PM

So who decides on the standards? Surely any decent education system must have common standards and curriculum for students across the country. Without real national standards you end up getting situations where individual schools or school districts can decide what can and cannot be taught to students. The end result of this is that you get schools in hillbilly areas that decide that their students don't need to learn about evolution and natural selection in school because the Bible says something different.
It's a good question, Joe. I think higher national standards are good. I think higher standards from teachers is good. I think higher standards by parents is good. It was my experience that students were being treated as uninterested and dull - when in reality most kids were just a small push away from showing an interest in any subject.

The bureaucracy that arises from attempted homogeneity of educational experience in nations of hundreds or tens of millions is a daunting challenge. National education has only been tried for a few centuries and the real mother of all modern education systems, the Prussian system was created in the 19th century. Consider that there wasn't even a printing press until the 15th century. Imagine the limitations on education imposed by having to copy text by hand. There were political restrictions too. From a westerners point of view, until the Treaty of Westphalia the first half of the phrase "national education" was ambiguous.

Do we wish for every school district to have the same standards with an increasingly homogeneous population? Everyone knows the same things and has increasingly similar beliefs?

Should a school district in Kansas be able to teach creation instead of evolution because that is what the people in that community believe or should we properly indoctrinate them? Why shouldn't we have bible study classes in school? What if a school district is 100% Jewish? Should they be able to hold temple in school? If a Detroit suburb is 100% Muslim, should they be able to have a class on the Koran? What if a democratic nation is 85% Christian? Should they be able to stop the teaching of evolution in the schools or should their education be controlled by the minority group known as "the educators"? There's no way to answer all those "shoulds" satisfactorily. I don't think you can resolve all issues of public education, freedom, liberty and democracy and remain consistent.

As you asked above, who should decide such things?[/b][/quote]
Ultimately I think it's educators who should decide what is taught. People who are leaders in their field. The average parent, as well meaning as they might be, is not what I would consider to be an expert in the eduction of children.

I don't think superstition has a place in modern education. Maybe in an historical context. Science has proven itself as the superior method for discovering facts about the physical world. Any "truth" must be open to falsification and that's what science is all about. The scientific method is self-correcting. Religion is dogma.

I believe very strongly in well funded state funded public eduction. I'm an egalitarian by nature. Everyone, irrespective of social circumstances, deseves a good eduction. An educated peopulation benefits everyone. It's an investment in the future of the world; in the future of humanity itself.

Hope this made sense. I'm very drunk.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@Feb 6 2004, 07:46 AM
I'm an egalitarian by nature. Everyone, irrespective of social circumstances, deseves a good eduction. An educated peopulation benefits everyone. It's an investment in the future of the world; in the future of humanity itself.

Hope this made sense. I'm very drunk.

You're an impressive drunk.

Do you feel that it is more important to make sure that those in unfortunate social circumstances receive equal education or that those who show great promise get the best education?

What benefits the world most? Poor people getting fair educations or smart people getting extraordinary educations? Why not just focus on the cognitive elite and let the dummies work at McDonald's?



Last edited by Colin at Feb 6 2004, 08:07 AM

[PornoDoggy]

Too early in the morning without enough caffine ....



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Feb 6 2004, 10:10 AM

[Carrie]

Originally posted by Colin@Feb 6 2004, 08:07 AM
Do you feel that it is more important to make sure that those in unfortunate social circumstances receive equal education or that those who show great promise get the best education?

What benefits the world most? Poor people getting fair educations or smart people getting extraordinary educations? Why not just focus on the cognitive elite and let the dummies work at McDonald's?
But the problem is, who decides.
Standardized tests aren't good enough to make these decisions, because kids learn differently. Some are auditory learners, some soak up everything they read in a book, some learn by 'experiencing' and really diving into a subject.
Heck just look at the "4 Dummies" line of books that has catapulted so many subjects forward in "dumb" people. It's not that the people are dumb, it's that they're visual learners. The 4Dummies doesn't present material that's any easier than in other books, it just presents the material in a visual fashion. Lots of colors to separate subjects, little light bulbs to highlight things, colored bulleted lists, etc... folks that find a normal HTML book too "heavy" in the material dep't can pick up that same material quickly when presented by a 4Dummies book.

Like Peaches noted, the schools where you end up having the same teacher year after year would really be best for the kids, as those teachers know 'their' kids and how they learn. They can teach to the child the way the child needs to learn; rather than just trying a blanket solution for everyone and those who don't get it - too bad.

One size does not fit all, and what the public schools are attempting to do at this point is force it to fit.

(God it's hard to type when your o key is sticking.)

[Carrie]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy+Feb 5 2004, 09:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PornoDoggy @ Feb 5 2004, 09:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Carrie@Feb 5 2004, 01:46 PM
Vouchers - thumbs up.

I forget now who said to stop blaming the gov't for everything (Aeon maybe?) but umm... who is to blame? It's the gov't that took away the small hometown schools and pushed the kids out of homeschooling and farmed them into their big public school institutions. It's the gov't that sets the SOLs (Standards of Learning) - and keeps dropping those standards more and more for both the teachers and the students. It's the gov't that creates the environment in which our kids learn in school... zero tolerance, ebonics as a second language, "tolerance" period...
And ultimately it's the gov't that should be held responsible for the results that are coming out of the schools. Shit rolls downhill. If the students aren't doing well, look at the teachers. If the teachers aren't doing well, look at the superintendent and the local school system. If the school system isn't doing well, look at the gov't that is funding it, hiring the superintendents, hiring the teachers, and setting (lowering) the standards.
Where did you get your information? The Timmy McVeigh Foundation for the History of Education?[/b][/quote]
Would you like to discuss or refute something I said, or are you just in an insulting mood today/tonight? :)

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 6 2004, 10:22 AM
Heck just look at the "4 Dummies" line of books that has catapulted so many subjects forward in "dumb" people. It's not that the people are dumb, it's that they're visual learners.
I'd say anyone purchasing a "Dummies" book has pretty much already come to grips with their cognitive limitations.

Over at Amazon.com, I found out that the same people who bought "Windows Xp for Dummies" bought "Word 2002 for Dummies", "The Internet for Dummies" and "AOL for Dummies".

(Yeah, I really looked it up)

I think this phenomenon goes well beyond these people's supposed "visual learning" prowess. It's not like there is a law of conservation of learning ability. Some people are just dumb. Now there are books for them too. Cool.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Colin+Feb 6 2004, 11:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Feb 6 2004, 11:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Carrie@Feb 6 2004, 10:22 AM
Heck just look at the "4 Dummies" line of books that has catapulted so many subjects forward in "dumb" people. It's not that the people are dumb, it's that they're visual learners.
I'd say anyone purchasing a "Dummies" book has pretty much already come to grips with their cognitive limitations.[/b][/quote]
Which is exactly why I have so many of them. :P

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Peaches+Feb 6 2004, 10:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peaches @ Feb 6 2004, 10:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Colin@Feb 6 2004, 11:34 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Carrie@Feb 6 2004, 10:22 AM
Heck just look at the "4 Dummies" line of books that has catapulted so many subjects forward in "dumb" people. It's not that the people are dumb, it's that they're visual learners.
I'd say anyone purchasing a "Dummies" book has pretty much already come to grips with their cognitive limitations.
Which is exactly why I have so many of them. :P[/b][/quote]
Well, I stand corrected. I know you're not a dummy.

Let's just say that on average it is true ;-)

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@Feb 6 2004, 08:46 AM
Ultimately I think it's educators who should decide what is taught. People who are leaders in their field. The average parent, as well meaning as they might be, is not what I would consider to be an expert in the eduction of children.
Yet the whole "Don't use the word "evolution" in GA schools" was called for by the superintendent and it was the parents who squashed the idea and make her retract her statements. Your theory looks good on paper yet doesn't withstand the stink test.

Parents MUST be the main source of "education", be it manners, morals, or academics, in their children's lives. No teacher will ever know a child as well as a good parent does.

[OldJeff]

Having the same teacher year after year could possibly be the worst thing for teaching children the most important thing - getting ready to face the real world.

How many people have had the same boss for their entire life ? The biggest thing students can take (I agree with whover it was that said an education is taken) from their school years is some preperation for real life, which involve interaction with many different people in many different ways.

As far as Standards go, again welcome to real life, the standard for graduation (or promotion to the next level ) should be absolute and non moving, minimum standards should be upheld without exception. It is the way the real world works, if you do not meet the minimum standards your job requires, you are fired (there are a lot of people in the world that could have used this lesson earlier in life)

No Child left behind is a great concept, but the fact is there will always be people that simply do not measure up to the standards that are required. Our current method of lowering the standard is wrong.

Seperate schools based on learning ability ? might be the answer.

People are always screaming about getting equal education, 2 kids in the same classroom, one getting straight A's the other failing, are getting the same education, just points out that natural selection is indeed true.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Peaches+Feb 6 2004, 10:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peaches @ Feb 6 2004, 10:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Joe Sixpack@Feb 6 2004, 08:46 AM
Ultimately I think it's educators who should decide what is taught. People who are leaders in their field. The average parent, as well meaning as they might be, is not what I would consider to be an expert in the eduction of children.
[/b][/quote]
I had a few college professors who though every kid in the world should learn a year's worth of physics. Most professors probably feel the same way about their chosen field. Not me. Some people just don't care about physics. Let them be. You don't exactly learn a lot of important skills for life in physics 101.

The one area I think the high school curriculum should really focus more on is language; reading, writing, grammar and spelling.

But what do we do about students who can't remember what an adjective is from year to year? Just keep teaching the parts of speech every year? I think that is pretty much how it is handled now.

[PornoDoggy]

Carrie ... I think that statements like "It's the gov't that took away the small hometown schools and pushed the kids out of homeschooling and farmed them into their big public school institutions" is further demonstration of the ignorance of history - willful or otherwise - that you exhibited the other day when you asserted that opportunities for black people began in 1865. Just one more thing the rite-thinkin 'merikins can fix once the shit goes down, huh?

I'm not a big fan of the educational establishment. I wen't to school back when a determination of who belonged to the cognitive elite was made by local educators, and was made pretty early. Unfortunately, the criteria applied often had as much to do with who the parents were, what neighborhood they lived in, what church they attended, what race or ethnic background, and - often the most important - how compliant the child was in the factory environment.

Great strides have been made in fixing those sorts of problems (except maybe the later - now we just drug 'em). The solutions have, as usually happens, created a whole new set of problems. Are they any worse now than they were before? I doubt it very seriously.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Feb 6 2004, 11:18 AM

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Colin@Feb 6 2004, 11:52 AM
I had a few college professors who though every kid in the world should learn a year's worth of physics. Most professors probably feel the same way about their chosen field. Not me. Some people just don't care about physics. Let them be. You don't exactly learn a lot of important skills for life in physics 101.
I agree. My kid took AP calculus but I barely made it out trig, lol! Had they required anything past trig to graduate from HS, I'd STILL be there :)

I also think a lot of college time is wasted on things that should already be known.

College, at least here, is running about $11K a year for in-state tuition, room, food and books.

The first 1 or 2 years are spent teaching what SHOULD have been learned in HS. :unsure: Why? Why are parents and/or the government (in forms of grants, low interest loans, scholarships) paying big $$$ to teach kids what they should have already learned?

On the other hand, when I enrolled in college, I made the mistake of taking all "major level" courses for my psychology major. I was taking 300-500 class levels the two years I was there which now won't transfer to another college. But I tried to take public health 101, algebra 101, english 101, etc. but I was bored to tears as I'd already learned it.....but they were required for graduation. Why? :angry:

And I won't even get into asking the question "Why does our GA scholarship pay for kids to take remedial english in college?". :(

[Almighty Colin]

Someday scientists will figure out how to create a new universe. And being that they can, they will. Maybe this has already happened. God was a scientist.

- Horton.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 6 2004, 11:17 AM
Carrie ... I think that statements like "It's the gov't that took away the small hometown schools and pushed the kids out of homeschooling and farmed them into their big public school institutions" is further demonstration of the ignorance of history - willful or otherwise - that you exhibited the other day when you asserted that opportunities for black people began in 1865. Just one more thing the rite-thinkin 'merikins can fix once the shit goes down, huh?

I'm not a big fan of the educational establishment. I wen't to school back when a determination of who belonged to the cognitive elite was made by local educators, and was made pretty early. Unfortunately, the criteria applied often had as much to do with who the parents were, what neighborhood they lived in, what church they attended, what race or ethnic background, and - often the most important - how compliant the child was in the factory environment.

Great strides have been made in fixing those sorts of problems (except maybe the later - now we just drug 'em). The solutions have, as usually happens, created a whole new set of problems. Are they any worse now than they were before? I doubt it very seriously.
PD my stance from this doesn't really come from being a right-winger. Some of it does - things like requiring students in Cali to dress/act/pray like muslims to force "tolerance" gets my blood boiling.

But if it wasn't the gov't who pushed the kids into the public schools, who was it? There are mandatory attendance laws. Your child *must* attend school or a truancy officer will show up at your door and you could face jailtime. That's the gov't, like it or not.

Thankfully there are still options like private schools and homeschooling. Here in VA the homeschoolers still have to 'report in' yearly with test results (from California standardized tests which don't match the VA SOLs, funnily enough); so it's not like declaring you're going to homeschool gets you out of the attendance requirement and risk of jail.
And I won't even get into what's on the SOLs here and the disgustingly low percentile you can "pass" with on the tests - it's shocking to look at. I don't know why they keep lowering the bar.
It's like the "no child left behind" has become "we'll lower the standards so that every child can pass"; which defeats the purpose.

I just think public schools have gone downhill so horribly decade after decade. I bet the tests that *you* were taking in 8th grade would be considered 11th-grade material now. I can't blame anyone but the gov't for that, because they're the ones that keep lowering the standards.
See what I'm saying?

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 6 2004, 01:38 PM
There are mandatory attendance laws ...That's the gov't, like it or not.
I've embraced my slavery.

[Dianna Vesta]

Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 5 2004, 09:16 AM
Parents need to be involved in their children's education. Almost without exception every good public school in the US has high parental involvement and every low performing school has little to none. Teachers are paid the same at both sets of schools and have the same educational requirements.
This is very true, no doubt, but it's pretty hard when you've got to work your ass off and take care of everything. I think you know that Peaches.

Today in the US mothers are having babies and returning to work two months later or sooner. Something very wrong with that but they have no choice.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Dianna Vesta@Feb 6 2004, 02:08 PM
Something very wrong with that but they have no choice.
The old system fell apart ;-)

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 6 2004, 01:38 PM
PD my stance from this doesn't really come from being a right-winger. Some of it does - things like requiring students in Cali to dress/act/pray like muslims to force "tolerance" gets my blood boiling.

But if it wasn't the gov't who pushed the kids into the public schools, who was it? There are mandatory attendance laws. Your child *must* attend school or a truancy officer will show up at your door and you could face jailtime. That's the gov't, like it or not.

Thankfully there are still options like private schools and homeschooling. Here in VA the homeschoolers still have to 'report in' yearly with test results (from California standardized tests which don't match the VA SOLs, funnily enough); so it's not like declaring you're going to homeschool gets you out of the attendance requirement and risk of jail.
And I won't even get into what's on the SOLs here and the disgustingly low percentile you can "pass" with on the tests - it's shocking to look at. I don't know why they keep lowering the bar.
It's like the "no child left behind" has become "we'll lower the standards so that every child can pass"; which defeats the purpose.

I just think public schools have gone downhill so horribly decade after decade. I bet the tests that *you* were taking in 8th grade would be considered 11th-grade material now. I can't blame anyone but the gov't for that, because they're the ones that keep lowering the standards.
See what I'm saying?
Really? Tell me something - does your blood boil as much when some born-again halfwit wants to remove the word evolution from the curricula as it does when "students in Cali [are forced to] dress/act/pray like muslims to force "tolerance""? Assuming for a moment - and it's a BIG assumption, considering how often incidents such as you purport to describe are blown way out of proportion - that what you allege in California is true, mine does.

Based on what I've seen of your posts on the board on this subject, I suspect yours doesn't. You will probably drop back into the role as the pagan apologist for the believers in Creation "Science" (sic).

Public schools evolved as communities sought a way to educate their children - those of their children as did not attend private schools. Mandatory attendance laws, at least in part, stemmed from the socialist/radical notion that children shouldn't be in the workforce. So your depiction of Big Brother imposing his will upon the poor defenseless people just doesn't cut it. It fits well in one paranoid school of thought - but flies in the face of history.

Forgive me if I find your claim that your "stance from this doesn't really come from being a right-winger" to be questionable at best.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Dianna Vesta@Feb 6 2004, 03:08 PM
Today in the US mothers are having babies and returning to work two months later or sooner. Something very wrong with that but they have no choice.
Of course they have a choice. Don't have kids you can't afford. :unsure:

Sure there are circumstances beyond your control - when I had my son I was married, I was a stay at home mother and my husband made good money. I would never have dreamed I would have been a single mother.

But even as a struggling single mother I was ALWAYS involved with my kid's education. I moved where there were good schools, not where it was convenient for me. I went to every open house, PTA meeting and teacher/parent conference. I went to EXTRA one on one meetings with the teachers and principals if needed.

If someone's not willing to take the time to raise their kid, then they have no business having a kid. They have that choice.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 6 2004, 02:59 PM
Of course they have a choice. Don't have kids you can't afford.
This is why I like you so much.

[Edd]

Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 6 2004, 02:59 PM
If someone's not willing to take the time to raise their kid, then they have no business having a kid.
Let me repeat that for ya...

If someone's not willing to take the time to raise their kid, then they have no business having a kid.

Oh and in case you missed it...

If someone's not willing to take the time to raise their kid, then they have no business having a kid.


:okthumb:

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Edd+Feb 6 2004, 03:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Edd @ Feb 6 2004, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Peaches@Feb 6 2004, 02:59 PM
If someone's not willing to take the time to raise their kid, then they have no business having a kid.
Let me repeat that for ya...

If someone's not willing to take the time to raise their kid, then they have no business having a kid.

Oh and in case you missed it...

If someone's not willing to take the time to raise their kid, then they have no business having a kid.


:okthumb:[/b][/quote]
Just in case anyone missed it ...

[[Labret]]

Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 6 2004, 08:51 AM


On the other hand, when I enrolled in college, I made the mistake of taking all "major level" courses for my psychology major. I was taking 300-500 class levels the two years I was there which now won't transfer to another college.

:angry:


Jesus, what a load of shit.

One, its upper division and not "major level". Two, there is not a university worth a shit in this country that would allow someone to just jump into all upper division courses their first year, in fact, I would venture so far as to say it would be damn near impossible. Did you not have an advisor? Did the registrar not question why someone with absolutely no prerequisite courses would be trying to take upper division courses? 500? Thats grad school in 95% of the schools in this country hick, and you are not going to convince anyone on this board that you were taking grad level psych courses your freshman or sophomore year... or have even heard the term GRE. Even as a grad student I would not be able to register for upper division courses in another major without the professors approval, advisors ok, and then passing it on to the registrar.

What you are spewing is 100% bullshit. Upper division psych that wont transfer, give me a fucking break. I have had the pleasure of attending 4 different universities and in order for something not to transfer, it has to be so obscure the university laughs at you, or the school you are transfering from sucks and they wont recognize the shit you learned at that school. Everything transfers if its even half decent.

But then again, I havent been going to community college in Georgia either.


But I tried to take public health 101, algebra 101, english 101, etc. but I was bored to tears as I'd already learned it.....but they were required for graduation. Why?


You couldnt make it past your sophomore year and you ask why? You are the reason why. Its a weeding out process. Ask your son.

[Peaches]

Ah, my little sweetheart, lol! No, it wasn't a community college but at the time it also wasn't part of the university system. I don't know the exact course numbers - unlike you, I went to college when I was 17, not in my late 20's, so it was quite awhile ago. :awinky:

Sorry I didn't use the exact course numbers and correct terminology for you. If I knew how much it mattered to you, I would have pulled up my transcripts and given you the exact courses and numbers. :P

[Peaches]

Oops, as much you KNOW I hate to prove it, it seems our little Labret is wrong. Here are the course requirements for "Major Requirements" (sorry I used "level" and it confused you. :P ) for a BS in Psychology at my former college (now part of the university system):

Major Requirements

____ PSY 210 (Careers in Psychology)

____ PSY 381 (Psychological Statistics II) PSY 280 is a prerequisite

____ PSY 382 (Research Methods in Psychology)

____ PSY 562 (History and Systems)

____ One of the following courses in the developmental/personality/social content area: PSY 371 (Abnormal Psychology), PSY 374 (Social Psychology), Psych 375 (Developmental Psychology), PSY 376 (Personality Psychology)

____ One of the following courses in the experimental content area: PSY 452 (Cognitive Psychology), PSY 453 (Motivation and Emotion), PSY 455 (Principles of Animal Learning), PSY 457 (Physiological Psychology)

____ One of the following laboratory courses: PSY 552 (Experimental Cognitive Psychology), PSY 553 (Experimental Animal Learning and Cognition), PSY 555 (Experimental Developmental Psychology), PSY 556 (Experimental Social Psychology). For all lab courses there are prerequisites: PSY 382 and the related content course. For example, to take experimental social psychology one must first take social psychology.

____ Three psychology electives, which can be any course 300-level or above

____ Four more electives from outside psychology. At the student's option, this can constitute a "minor" if the student elects to take four courses in the same area (such as Anthropology or Sociology) at the 300 level or above.

____ Six more electives, no more than three from psychology. Five of these must be full five-credit courses; the sixth can be a two-credit course. Under the quarter system, a student needs 190 credit hours to graduate.

Though you ARE right - I'm looking at my transscripts and didn't take above 374. :( Not bad for an 18 year old though. B)

[[Labret]]

but at the time it also wasn't part of the university system


I feel oddly compelled to use an "lol" but I cannot force myself to do it. Gee, I wonder why your classes from Jim Bobs school of Psych and auto repair wont transfer.

Use of appropriate terminology is an indicator of someones familiarity of the subject at hand.

If I went to a doctor and he said he was going to stick a thingamajig in my whatchamacallit and collect some stuff, I would know he was a fraud.

Your absolute butchering of even a basic understanding of how the university system works only further proves my point.

I turned 21 my freshman year, I see you have a touch of Serge-itus today.



Last edited by [Labret] at Feb 6 2004, 04:16 PM

[Peaches]

Originally posted by [Labret]@Feb 6 2004, 08:15 PM
I turned 21 my freshman year
So it's taken you Eleven years to finish 5 years of college? And you're critcizing my son? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[[Labret]]

Originally posted by Peaches+Feb 6 2004, 04:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peaches @ Feb 6 2004, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--[Labret]@Feb 6 2004, 08:15 PM
I turned 21 my freshman year
So it's taken you Eleven years to finish 5 years of college? And you're critcizing my son? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:[/b][/quote]

Bitch pay attention.

6 years for 2 bachelors.

5 years off to build smut empire.

1 year for masters.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by [Labret]+Feb 6 2004, 08:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ([Labret] @ Feb 6 2004, 08:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Peaches@Feb 6 2004, 04:18 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--[Labret]@Feb 6 2004, 08:15 PM
I turned 21 my freshman year
So it's taken you Eleven years to finish 5 years of college? And you're critcizing my son? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bitch pay attention.

6 years for 2 bachelors.

5 years off to build smut empire.

1 year for masters.[/b][/quote]
Testy, testy, testy! :lol: :lol: My kid's STILL further in his education than YOU were at his age. :P

BTW, at the University of Michigan, there are also several 500 series psych courses for the undergraduate degree. B)

[[Labret]]

Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 6 2004, 04:24 PM



BTW, at the University of Michigan, there are also several 500 series psych courses for the undergraduate degree. B)

Hence why I said


Thats grad school in 95% of the schools in this country hick


I am well aware there are places that have 500 level lab courses. Now get back to google and attempt to salvage some credibility.


Testy, testy, testy! :lol: :lol: My kid's STILL further in his education than YOU were at his age. :P


But I graduated. Twice. Your son? Oh thats right, he dropped out and opted for the easy way out. You raising a little AMP of your own. Maybe one day he can mod here, you would be so proud.

Just stop, you are making this all a little too easy and I need to get some food.

Wouldnt ya know it, Peaches never went to a real university. Imagine that.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by [Labret]@Feb 6 2004, 08:29 PM
But I graduated. Twice. Your son? Oh thats right, he dropped out and opted for the easy way out. You raising a little AMP of your own. Maybe one day he can mod here, you would be so proud.
You graduated twice by the time you were 20? No? Not even a freshman yet? Gee - seems he's on track to pass you up academically my little sweetheart. :P Don't be jealous that the rest of us were able to get into college when we graduated from HS. :(

Wouldnt ya know it, Peaches never went to a real university. Imagine that.
Even more amazing is the fact that anyone, especially you, would even care. Thank you! :inlove:

[[Labret]]

Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 6 2004, 04:34 PM

Even more amazing is the fact that anyone, especially you, would even care. Thank you! :inlove:

Oh I care. Now everytime you trumpet about your experience in psych we can all laugh you right the fuck out of the thread.

I thank you for that.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by [Labret]@Feb 6 2004, 07:15 PM
If I went to a doctor and he said he was going to stick a thingamajig in my whatchamacallit and collect some stuff, I would know he was a fraud.


I'd know I was going to have a good time.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by [Labret]+Feb 6 2004, 08:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ([Labret] @ Feb 6 2004, 08:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Peaches@Feb 6 2004, 04:34 PM

Even more amazing is the fact that anyone, especially you, would even care. Thank you! :inlove:

Oh I care. Now everytime you trumpet about your experience in psych we can all laugh you right the fuck out of the thread.

I thank you for that.[/b][/quote]
Thought you needed to go get some food? I'm beginning to think you're more controlled by Oprano than you are by GFY! :unsure:

And I don't ever recall saying I had any "experience in psych" and I've said time and time again that I only went for two years. Since you thought it was impossible for me to take the classes I took during the first two years, why would you have even thought for one minute I had "experience in psych"? You're either not making any sense or you're delusional and making things up. Either way, I'm concerned for you. :( Maybe I can help you with the "experience in psych" you think I said I have. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[[Labret]]

Since you thought it was impossible for me to take the classes I took during the first two years


Thats why I said initially


Two, there is not a university worth a shit in this country that would allow someone to just jump into all upper division courses their first year


And lo and behold you didnt attend a university, so I have no doubt you took some seriously fucked up psych classes for two years. And I use the term "classes" lightly.


And I don't ever recall saying I had any "experience in psych" and I've said time and time again that I only went for two years


I have read more than enough half baked psych theories from you regarding any number of topics in the past to learn that you fancy yourself the amateur psychiatrist. I am glad those will end today.


Thought you needed to go get some food? I'm beginning to think you're more controlled by Oprano than you are by GFY! :unsure:


Decided to smoke some pot first. Pot makes food better. Besides, I cant eat until Lensman and Serge say I can.



Last edited by [Labret] at Feb 6 2004, 05:02 PM

[[Labret]]

:)

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by [Labret]@Feb 8 2004, 12:16 AM
:)
:ph34r:

[Joe Sixpack]

Originally posted by [Labret]@Feb 7 2004, 09:16 PM
:)
:yowsa:



Last edited by Joe Sixpack at Feb 8 2004, 10:00 PM