KK, what's the story on Visa in January?

[Winetalk.com]

also...WHO processes zoologists today?

[*KK*]

Oddly enough your second question I just heard an answer to the other day Sergei :)

The first one, I dont think is January, I think its going to start next week.

I'm of the mind that there are more than a couple people over the limit and doing high numbers who are going to feel it in the pocketbook for the holidays.

[KRL]

Kimmy,

What's happening on that exactly??

[*KK*]

Originally posted by KRL@Dec 4 2003, 12:19 PM
Kimmy,

What's happening on that exactly??
Looking into my magic 8 ball I'd say someone's going to get fined for the chargebacks they have over 1%.

Who it's going to be requires me to get out my Ouija board and its in storage.

[KRL]

Sounds wonderfully intriguing.

:lol:

[Peaches]

It will be interesting to see which webmasters are canceled by the sponsors because the webmaster's charge back rate is high. :zoinks:

[mojobill]

Programs have to tighten up their watch on wm's that are trending on CB's.. I know several programs started a couple months ago, and got all sorts of grief for it... but... you have to watch your business carefully, and things that are going to cause your business problems or $$$ have to be dealt with.... period...

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Peaches@Dec 4 2003, 12:43 PM
It will be interesting to see which webmasters are canceled by the sponsors because the webmaster's charge back rate is high. :zoinks:
One of the big problems with resellers is what I'll term inadverdent fraud.

Guy is promoting a site or sites and he's doing his best to make a sale. He's not trying to cheat the program, but he's gotta eat.

So he maybe 'overmarkets' the site, then the surfer joins and figures out he ain't getting what he signed on for... and either gets a credit or a chargeback.

It's not deliberate fraud on the resellers part but it leads to problems for the program when its being done in mass quantity by the resellers...

Let's say, and this is a number out of thin air, that 15% of the resellers in any given program are 'overmarketing' the products. Depending on the volume of joins from these resellers, a program could land in hot water VERY quickly with the cb ratios allowable now.

Someone icq'd me yesterday about this very problem -- seems the reseller was promising a certain video that wasn't in the site...

More than one revshare program has been hit with reseller fraud of late as well, not a good sign, tho that is a deliberate defrauding of the program, not an accidental one as the case above illustrates.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by *KK*@Dec 4 2003, 04:02 PM
More than one revshare program has been hit with reseller fraud of late as well, not a good sign, tho that is a deliberate defrauding of the program, not an accidental one as the case above illustrates.
*nods*
The allowable CB ratios make it very easy for a company to put a competitor out of the processing business. Nasty stuff, and probably untraceable.

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Carrie+Dec 4 2003, 01:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Carrie @ Dec 4 2003, 01:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--*KK*@Dec 4 2003, 04:02 PM
More than one revshare program has been hit with reseller fraud of late as well, not a good sign, tho that is a deliberate defrauding of the program, not an accidental one as the case above illustrates.
*nods*
The allowable CB ratios make it very easy for a company to put a competitor out of the processing business. Nasty stuff, and probably untraceable.[/b][/quote]
Not sure what you mean by put a competitor out of business Carrie, can you explain more?

[Dianna Vesta]

Even with excellent customer service I wonder who can.

I hear rumors in the grape vine of options coming. It will be interesting to see what these are. My predictions are:

New payment options

Visa kicks serious ass then Mc/Visa announce they will not longer do subscription billing online.

By the end of next year it will be prepaid porn which will now prompt the government to handle legal age requirements differently imposing more laws.

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by *KK*+Dec 4 2003, 01:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Dec 4 2003, 01:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Peaches@Dec 4 2003, 12:43 PM
It will be interesting to see which webmasters are canceled by the sponsors because the webmaster's charge back rate is high. :zoinks:
One of the big problems with resellers is what I'll term inadverdent fraud.

Guy is promoting a site or sites and he's doing his best to make a sale. He's not trying to cheat the program, but he's gotta eat.

So he maybe 'overmarkets' the site, then the surfer joins and figures out he ain't getting what he signed on for... and either gets a credit or a chargeback.

It's not deliberate fraud on the resellers part but it leads to problems for the program when its being done in mass quantity by the resellers...

Let's say, and this is a number out of thin air, that 15% of the resellers in any given program are 'overmarketing' the products. Depending on the volume of joins from these resellers, a program could land in hot water VERY quickly with the cb ratios allowable now.

Someone icq'd me yesterday about this very problem -- seems the reseller was promising a certain video that wasn't in the site...

More than one revshare program has been hit with reseller fraud of late as well, not a good sign, tho that is a deliberate defrauding of the program, not an accidental one as the case above illustrates.[/b][/quote]
I used to wonder about chargebacks until I started asking for passes into sites I push, and ya know what I found.

Sometimes sites look much different inside than out, even sponsors who buy expensive ads on message boards.

I started pushing a sponsor who had nothing but exclusive content, tour rocked, and it converted!

After a few chargebacks, I logged into the site, and found out why?

It wasnt that was OVERMARKETING the site, it was that the sets were of 25 images each and the site consisted of MAYBE 25 girls and plug ins, but the tour was all exclusive content.

Having been in and out of some of the biggest members sections over the past 3+ years has shown me that most paysites out there, no matter what are nothing but shit anyhow.

exclusive or not, if members are not satisfied, they DO chargeback.

Although I agree, someone saying: See Tawnee Stone gang banged by 4 black midgets' is telling a tale for sign ups, sometimes the blame falls on the people who are focused more on an upsell even if the content is exclusive.

[*KK*]

I don't particularly think exclusive content plays the role it did even a year ago in the chargeback scenario.

Surfers are smarter, they are greedy, and in about the same percentages as resellers and program owners.

The system is simply flawed the way it is. I'm sure there will be a market correction coming down the pipe, and there will be plenty of opportunities for those that are paying attention.

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by *KK*@Dec 4 2003, 01:40 PM
I don't particularly think exclusive content plays the role it did even a year ago in the chargeback scenario.

That's what I said in my post, it doesnt have any effect really.

The bottom line is STILL if the surfer is pleased or not.

I have been in an average of 3-5 member sections a week for over 2 years straight now, have passes to more than i could log into in one day, and some are nothing but total crap, UPSELLS UPSELLS UPSELLS.

[Hooper]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX@Dec 4 2003, 04:43 PM
UPSELLS UPSELLS UPSELLS.
If I could fit that onto a license plate i would.

[Fletch XXX]

IN addition, Ill say the best sites I have been in, and the ones with the most content, exclusive or not.

Dont even have webmaster programs.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Hooper+Dec 4 2003, 05:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hooper @ Dec 4 2003, 05:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Fletch XXX@Dec 4 2003, 04:43 PM
UPSELLS UPSELLS UPSELLS.
If I could fit that onto a license plate i would.[/b][/quote]
:okthumb:

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by Hooper+Dec 4 2003, 01:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hooper @ Dec 4 2003, 01:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Fletch XXX@Dec 4 2003, 04:43 PM
UPSELLS UPSELLS UPSELLS.
If I could fit that onto a license plate i would.[/b][/quote]
UP53LL5

leet plate

[cherrylula]

hahaha UPSELLS on the front plate...

CHARGEBACKS on the rear? ; )

[wig]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX@Dec 4 2003, 04:45 PM
IN addition, Ill say the best sites I have been in, and the ones with the most content, exclusive or not.

Dont even have webmaster programs.
Fletch, who are they?

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by wig@Dec 4 2003, 01:57 PM

Fletch, who are they?
how could I remember?

Im just a dumb stoner, remember?

durrrrp.

[*KK*]

Well Fletch, what do you do with all those surfers that cancel before they ever log in? They may be happy with what they get but they're done already.

And the surfers who will chargeback and get credits no matter what the site has?

[gonzo]

Originally posted by *KK*@Dec 4 2003, 05:02 PM
Well Fletch, what do you do with all those surfers that cancel before they ever log in? They may be happy with what they get but they're done already.

And the surfers who will chargeback and get credits no matter what the site has?
Is this a leading question to be answered....

Accept Epassporte?

[Fletch XXX]

Why are you asking me?

I was just stating my opinion on sites.

:D

[wig]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX+Dec 4 2003, 04:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fletch XXX @ Dec 4 2003, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--wig@Dec 4 2003, 01:57 PM

Fletch, who are they?
how could I remember?

Im just a dumb stoner, remember?

durrrrp.[/b][/quote]
I called you dumb? :huh:

Come on man, give it up.

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by wig@Dec 4 2003, 02:05 PM
Come on man, give it up.
I did.

I havent smoked in days!

:awinky:

[wig]

Are they in your recommended list?

http://www.fletchxxx.com/webmasters.html

:yowsa:

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by wig@Dec 4 2003, 02:09 PM
Are they in your recommended list?

http://www.fletchxxx.com/webmasters.html

:yowsa:
why would they be if they dont have webmaster programs?

:awinky:

[wig]

Nothing gets by you! :groucho:

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by wig@Dec 4 2003, 02:11 PM
Nothing gets by you! :groucho:
http://www.sptimes.com/photo_review/110398/lightning.jpg

[cherrylula]

Biggest thing overlooked in internet porn is that the customer base is mostly men who don't like commitment.

As in site porn memberships among other things.

Don't try to tie them into something and overcharge them at the same time, it never works.



Last edited by cherrylula at Dec 4 2003, 02:20 PM

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX@Dec 4 2003, 02:05 PM
Why are you asking me?

I was just stating my opinion on sites.

:D
Because I generally like to see what other people are thinking and pick thru it to see what I might learn :)

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by *KK*+Dec 4 2003, 02:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Dec 4 2003, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Fletch XXX@Dec 4 2003, 02:05 PM
Why are you asking me?

I was just stating my opinion on sites.

:D
Because I generally like to see what other people are thinking and pick thru it to see what I might learn :)[/b][/quote]
Well, to be honest, unless it's a trial, I really do not know anything about someone cancelling a membership to a site before even logging in.

I know trial abusers do it, old trick. 3 day trial, kill it on day one, still have days to play.

But if you say it, I believe it, so no coue what to do with them.

I spoke only about the customers who are genuinely displeased with what the member section has to offer.

Membership, and subscription abusers have been around forever.

What person has subsribed to a magazine, didnt read past the second issue and never really paid? Same with paysites I suppose.

Guys are guys, and as Cherry said, commitment is a part of it.

You are saying some kill their pass before even logging in, that says to me, those guys KNOW THEY ARE DOING, so odds are they will get around whatever you can set up.

You are dealing with men who want the best deal, dont want recurring usually, and who are embarrassed with themself after realizing they spend 100 bucks a month or more on porn when they cant get it up and fuck their wife.

Its a weird puzzle, and a weird target audience.

[Fletch XXX]

I HAVE seen someone put up a 'WARNING' link near the 'CANCEL YOUR MEMBERSHIP' link that went a page straight up saying, 'look we know some of you bastards will charge this back and claim you never logged in. we keep detailed records of your ip and timestamp all your accesses, so if you try and fraud us we will prove to your credit card company you are frauding them'

or something like that.

who knows, maybe it worked!

[KRL]

I've been scratching my head for years wondering why people even buy memberships when you can either get so much free content or get passwords to most any site.

You don't have to go out and spend money to see what's behind member sections just go into any of the big password sites and you'll find a way into lots of the large sponsors and most of the smaller sites.

You won't be impressed by many nor would you be inclined to return to many again. Its all the same every site you go with the exception of a couple that focus on really specific niches. Like fuckingmachines.com. That's got a good members section and its updated often. But that's very rare.

And let's face it most people are here with the get rich quick hit and run attitude, not let's build a solid customer based business and spend a fortune on content. The economics really don't facilitate that for most sites anyway.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by *KK*+Dec 4 2003, 04:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Dec 4 2003, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Carrie@Dec 4 2003, 01:08 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--*KK*@Dec 4 2003, 04:02 PM
More than one revshare program has been hit with reseller fraud of late as well, not a good sign, tho that is a deliberate defrauding of the program, not an accidental one as the case above illustrates.
*nods*
The allowable CB ratios make it very easy for a company to put a competitor out of the processing business. Nasty stuff, and probably untraceable.
Not sure what you mean by put a competitor out of business Carrie, can you explain more?[/b][/quote]
Company A gets a bunch of carders to sign up for Company B and chargeback, raising Company B's ratio to critical levels.
Or they hire a bunch of webmasters to do the "false advertising" thing and send lots of traffic to the site that will chargeback when they find that Tawnee doesn't get gangbanged by 5 black midgets anywhere inside the site.

All kinds of creative ways to do it.

Btw we had a surfer sign up for a full membership (no trial) and cancel BEFORE he logged in a couple of days ago. Literally minutes later, probably just long enough to get his confirmation email.
His login is still good for the month and we still got a month's fee out of him, but he's assured himself that he won't be rebilled and he won't forget to cancel.

[cj]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX@Dec 4 2003, 05:30 PM
I know trial abusers do it, old trick. 3 day trial, kill it on day one, still have days to play.

Membership, and subscription abusers have been around forever.
IMO Anywhere from 40-60% of paysite customers these days are trial abusers ... As opposed to maybe 5 - 10% 2 years ago ..


I HAVE seen someone put up a 'WARNING' link near the 'CANCEL YOUR MEMBERSHIP' link that went a page straight up saying, 'look we know some of you bastards will charge this back and claim you never logged in. we keep detailed records of your ip and timestamp all your accesses, so if you try and fraud us we will prove to your credit card company you are frauding them'

or something like that.

who knows, maybe it worked!


It does, it has a really noticable effect on chargebacks ... it is also good to point out to the subscriber that a chargeback will result in their card being added to a negative database which will prevent them from ever buying anything on the internet ever again .... (enough people believe it!)

Cherry, you might be onto something with the 'men don't like commitment' thing LOL
I haven't updated my women's paysites since March & they still have as many rebills as my men's paysites which are updated ... er ... occasionally ...

[FATPad]

Originally posted by cj@Dec 4 2003, 03:19 PM
it is also good to point out to the subscriber that a chargeback will result in their card being added to a negative database which will prevent them from ever buying anything on the internet ever again .... (enough people believe it!)
Doesn't the online casino industry actually do that? Add credit cards to a blacklist db.

Or am I just extremely gullible?

[cj]

Fatpad, the way I have always understood it is that the 3rd party processors do it themselves, but don't really share ...

We add email addresses to our 'fuck off' list of anyone who refunds, chargebacks etc ...

Just think, if we are gullible enough to believe there is blacklists, the surfers should be too :biglaugh:

[*KK*]

EVERY processor has its own negative db - consisting of chargebackers, chronic cancellers and the like -- quite frankly I'm glad they don't share, that would make a good case for collusion and competitive disadvantage, not to mention that if they were sharing card numbers between them for any reason you'd probably see Visa and MC dump them all.

[Dravyk]

A lot of companies use the calendar year for their fiscal year. If someone were being hit in a week from now, and knew they were going to keep getting hit ... or someone wasn't hit, but they can see it coming hard the next month and there after ... what a perfect time to close shop all nice and neatly but on December 31st, instead of opening up the books for '04 for just a few weeks or a couple months. (Not to mention why go to Vegas a few days later.)

I think that's the basis of the January Theory. At least that's the basis of it as I see it. B)

[cj]

Originally posted by *KK*@Dec 4 2003, 06:51 PM
EVERY processor has its own negative db - consisting of chargebackers, chronic cancellers and the like -- quite frankly I'm glad they don't share, that would make a good case for collusion and competitive disadvantage, not to mention that if they were sharing card numbers between them for any reason you'd probably see Visa and MC dump them all.
Good point KK ....

I had always liked CCBill's 'vscrub' or whatever it was where you can use their scrub for your own merchant account ... they hang onto the card numbers but the merchant account still gets the protection.

Could somebody please fast forward to 2005? I'm so bored with processing :angry:

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by *KK*@Dec 4 2003, 03:15 PM
Oddly enough your second question I just heard an answer to the other day Sergei :)

The first one, I dont think is January, I think its going to start next week.

I'm of the mind that there are more than a couple people over the limit and doing high numbers who are going to feel it in the pocketbook for the holidays.
gotta be Lensman...or why else would he kill my sig on his board?

[gonzo]

Hellpuppy...

Somebody just said prepaid again...hehehe..
Now Aint that some shit?

[sarettah]

Originally posted by *KK*@Dec 4 2003, 06:51 PM
EVERY processor has its own negative db - consisting of chargebackers, chronic cancellers and the like -- quite frankly I'm glad they don't share, that would make a good case for collusion and competitive disadvantage, not to mention that if they were sharing card numbers between them for any reason you'd probably see Visa and MC dump them all.
Thats the way I saw it done.....

we scrubbed against our own database, if they were ok we sent them on to any of various processors....

lol...and if they bombed at a processor we sent them to another one and another and another and ...........








and if all else fails..... There is always Guatemala......... :yowsa:

[Hell Puppy]

Originally posted by gonzo@Dec 4 2003, 10:36 PM
Hellpuppy...

Somebody just said prepaid again...hehehe..
Now Aint that some shit?
Best pre-paid model I've seen is mail the check to a p.o. box.

All of the ones I've seen after that have fleas...

[*KK*]

Originally posted by sarettah@Dec 4 2003, 07:43 PM
Thats the way I saw it done.....

we scrubbed against our own database, if they were ok we sent them on to any of various processors....

lol...and if they bombed at a processor we sent them to another one and another and another and ...........








and if all else fails..... There is always Guatemala......... :yowsa:
Card number posting hasn't been allowed in a long time for a good reason.

[Hooper]

kk, what was/is the name of the company who maintains that shared negative database?

i think ibill used it.

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Hooper@Dec 5 2003, 12:01 PM
kk, what was/is the name of the company who maintains that shared negative database?

i think ibill used it.
wow, that's a blast from the past, and I can't remember off the top of my head... we didn't use it at CCBill since our fraud scrub was designed an entirely different way

[Shoplifter]

Originally posted by Hooper@Dec 5 2003, 12:01 PM
kk, what was/is the name of the company who maintains that shared negative database?

i think ibill used it.
Shared Global - www.sharedglobal.com

The world's largest database of misspelled addresses.

:bjump:

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Shoplifter+Dec 5 2003, 01:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Shoplifter @ Dec 5 2003, 01:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Hooper@Dec 5 2003, 12:01 PM
kk, what was/is the name of the company who maintains that shared negative database?

i think ibill used it.
Shared Global - www.sharedglobal.com

The world's largest database of misspelled addresses.

:bjump:[/b][/quote]
Actually I thought they were using a service. SGS is one of the FDR processing arms, people are still using them today.

[Monk]

Maybe trial joins have outstayed their welcome?

Is this technically possible? What about having paysites serve up different join pages to different IP #'s... so that people with a history of cancelling after the trial period are served with a join page that only has full membership option available and everybody else gets the trial option? This would only work with static IP's and has some inherent flaws but if its easy to do..... why not do it? Paysites who work closely together could share the IP information from each of their db's.

Anyhow, the billing model needs an overhaul sometime in the near future.

[*KK*]

The trial system may very well get an overhaul Monk, and it does need one imo.

If you think about the cost of a trial to everyone in the chain of the process, some parts of the chain are losing money. Now when things are good and people are paying the cc bills and the interest I guess its not that big of a deal... but when times get tight and the bottom line starts to shrink, that's when the banks are going to realize where they are flat out losing money.

Visa can't say don't take transactions for under X amount of dollars to my knowledge but they sure can create some regs that will make it way more costly to do so by the acquirers and in the end the merchants.

[Winetalk.com]

KK, pure theoretical question...

what would happen with the industry if somebody buys the company all 3rd party processors go thru, like Ibill, PayPal were aquired, and new owner decides to get rid of adult?

[Hooper]

thats blasphemy serge!

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Hooper@Dec 5 2003, 07:45 PM
thats blasphemy serge!
Hooper, remember boyscouts motto?

If and when it happens, I'll point you in the right direction,
Meat is not the only one who is working on the solution BEFORE the shit hits the fan
;-)))

[mojobill]

no, he is not..... :awinky:

( not that I know what meat is working towards )

[Hooper]

would it shock you if i told you that we alraedy solved chargeback problems with our nonadult merchant account?

it's not brain surgery.

[TeenGodFather]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Dec 5 2003, 04:50 PM
Meat is not the only one who is working on the solution BEFORE the shit hits the fan
;-)))
would you believe that even I have a backup plan, and I the adult biz can't get rid of me no matter what visa/mc whatever decides to do.

..and no, my plan doesn't involve money in envelopes.

:yowsa:

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Dec 5 2003, 03:16 PM
KK, pure theoretical question...

what would happen with the industry if somebody buys the company all 3rd party processors go thru, like Ibill, PayPal were aquired, and new owner decides to get rid of adult?
If someone has the money to buy First Data, I'd guess they already own it ;)

Actually there are only a couple of US banks left that will touch adult and the EU options are very quickly disappearing with the departure of Deutschebank and some similar.

The banks don't like high risk, not just adult, mainly because a very few make good money at it and everyone else still shares in the risk and the cost. To get into processing adult now, a bank has to have 100 million in Tier 1 capital for starters, and there arent that many who find adult to be a business they like with the money to play...

One can only hope that Visa gets what its after so the noose will stop tightening. I guess we will see.

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by *KK*@Dec 5 2003, 10:25 PM
a bank has to have 100 million in Tier 1 capital for starters
KK why hasnt any CC prossesor started a bank yet ?
Wouldnt that be a logical way to go, and might even reduce costs on both ends.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by slavdogg+Dec 5 2003, 11:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (slavdogg @ Dec 5 2003, 11:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--*KK*@Dec 5 2003, 10:25 PM
a bank has to have 100 million in Tier 1 capital for starters
KK why hasnt any CC prossesor started a bank yet ?
Wouldnt that be a logical way to go, and might even reduce costs on both ends.[/b][/quote]
My accountant made that suggestion 5+ years ago when I explain the business to him.

Don't forget, I hear checks are still available for billing customers...... B)

[*KK*]

Originally posted by slavdogg+Dec 5 2003, 07:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (slavdogg @ Dec 5 2003, 07:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--*KK*@Dec 5 2003, 10:25 PM
a bank has to have 100 million in Tier 1 capital for starters
KK why hasnt any CC prossesor started a bank yet ?
Wouldnt that be a logical way to go, and might even reduce costs on both ends.[/b][/quote]
It wouldn't honestly matter Slav if someone did own a bank. The associations are made up of all the banks and they have a very 'majority rules' attitude.

You want the acceptance of Visa and Mastercard, right now you have to take Visa and Mastercard. Amex won't touch us, Discover/DC/CB etc aren't widely used enough to keep the market share, and there's not much going to change in the next year or so at minimum.

[KRL]

The only thing guaranteed in business is change.

Predictions are predictions, nothing more, nothing less.

No one can say for sure what the future holds except its most always filled with something new and different.

Stay light, flexible and prepared to change and adapt on a moments notice and you'll be able to dance.

[RedEye]

A few points if You allow me :D

1. There are no adult acquiring banks other than FDMS in USA now at all.
There used to be Humbolt, RedWood and FDMS.
Humbolt recently closed all adult merchant accounts.

I heard that Redwood did the same. Not sure if it's true.

You can always get an adult merchant account for Your site in a small bank in USA somewhere where You leave where You got friends and there are plently of examples, however I think they just dont code it as adult and thus violate the rules of VISA/MC.

It will work only as long as Your turnover is small.


2. DeutscheBank has not quit on adult. PAGO has quit on adult. PAGO is a huge processor, daughter of DeutscheBank. However PAGO is not the only way to get to DeutscheBank. Morover there are at least 3 more acquiring banks in Germany and most do take adult.

The difference is as usual, for PAGO You could have applied with just an EU company which includes simply offshore for non residents jurisdictions such as UK, for Deutschebank and other acquirers You got to be really German to apply.

By the way it's a very common story in Europe. Although VISA rules require the acquiring bank to deal with companies only in it's VISA region (which is EU) most european acquiring banks will deal only with companies located not only in the same region but in the same country as well where the acquirer sits. So if You want to become a client of Euroline.Se for example which seem not to have any problems with adult You'd have to become swedish.
Which is NOT easy.

3. One of the problems behind the fact that only a few acquiring banks are OK with adult at the moment is a very simple fact - the existance of third party billers. Like Ibill, CCBill and Epoch. Acquirers SMELL trouble.

On contrary to what is being said all the time these companies along with a few non-adult third party billers like 2checkout.com are non compliant with current VISA/MC regulations.
According to VISA and MC there is simply no such thing as third party billing.

What does exist though is a difficulty without too much exposure to close down giants like Ibill, CCbill and Epoch or PayPal. The problem lies within a simple fact that though these companies violate the credit card companies bylaws they are not violating real life laws. In this case with a proper amount of money it may become very difficult to close such a company down. That is the reason behind IPSP regulations in USA and the fact that at this time only the biggest third party billers survived.
And that is not for long as well.

The problem is NOT that these companies operate against rules of VISA or MC. For the correct amount of money its no problem to change the rules You know. Always been so.
The problem is that third party billing is against common sense.

Let me explain.
The number 1 thing of importance in financials is liability.
So to say "who gets blamed when something goes wrong?" Because in the world of financials something may always go wrong.

Suppose Mustafa in Saudi Arabia purchases 3 day trial membership for www.fuckingelephants.com through www.fuckingbill.com which is against for example the holy book of Koran since fucking elephants in an unholy act according to the book. The secret service of Saudi Arabia according to the civil law there finds Mustafa and cuts off his penis and kills all of his relatives.

Who is to blame?

Obviously the site owner FuckingElephants.com whos responcibility is to be sure that whatever he sells is ok where he sells it.
However site's owner Ivan Ivanov obviously doesnt give a fuck for poor Mustafa and has a nice vacation spending Mustafas money. And nobody is able to find Ivan as long FuckingBill.com says they got no fucking idea who Ivan really is and where he is and the funds went to Ivan's offshore bank account in the bank of Alaska. The next thing which happens with FuckingBill.com is that they close down the office, run and have excellent time somewhere on Seychelles.

Therefore the question goes who the fuck allowed FuckingBill.com to work without any serious background info check on Ivan?
The question of course goes to the acquiring bank. However the acquiring banks UNLESS it's forbidden by VISA rules tells everybody to go fuck themselves with all questions and suggest to ask VISA why it is allowed to use their system in such a way and to accept third party billing companies.

So who's to Blame? In the end they blame VISA.

So that is what I call against common sense.

Because in real life in finances there's always liability. If You process moneys of a third party You are supposed to be licensed to do it and therefore You are allowed by law to do it because the law insures that if You have license than You keep appropriate records of whom You deal with.
And that is the difference.


4. Even if Epoch, CCBill and Ibill combine their efforts they will not have enough funds to build a bank in USA or Europe. They are not even close to be big enough for it in established countries. To form one or to buy one. Banks in solid regions like EU or USA are the most solid business one can find. Therefore it's the MOST expencive. There is a rumour that a VERY VERY small bank in Switzerland is for sale now. Price is half a billion USD. Epoch, CCBill and Ibill make only around 3% or so of profit from the turnover. If the turnover is around 2 billions for all of them the overal profit is about: 60 millions per year. I suspect much less by the way.


Further, VISA and MC will not grant a new bank processing license in EU or USA. In third world countries the VISA/MC rules are different and chargeback regulations apply to the processor itself as well, if the processor goes over 0.35% it is looking at trouble. And in third world its impossible to fight it - You just loose VISA/MC processing license the next day and that's it.

5. If I were You I would start thinking how to profit on adult without rebills. Because that's the next thing which is going to happen.
Visa introduced a new protocol 3D Secure, You saw already a light version of it called Verified by Visa.
All banks in the world slowly migrate to this protocol at this moment. The protocol cuts at least half of the chargebacks but its very difficult to run rebills with it.

6. As soon as Ibill , CCBill and Epoch will go down than the situation will become better.

Prior to this moment no acquirer would try doing anything to simplify the procedure of opening direct merchant accounts for merchants because all OK porn sites (non extreme, based in USA or in EU) worked with Ibill, CCBill and Epoch.

Out of 10 adult merchant accounts applications which go to acquiring banks who allow processing of adult 9 are probably from people who do not qualify for Ibill, CCBill and Epoch. Which basicly means trouble more or less.

Well...it was so a year or two ago. And three years ago prior to IPSP regulations You may imagine what kind of people looked for their own merchant accounts. :-) The banks had NOTHING good left for them.

At this moment the situation is changing. People realise where the processing is coming to, time will pass and banks will move along.

[RedEye]

P.S.
All major billing companies have fucked so many acquirers already that it doesnt help at all.
:D

Problem is acquirers KNOW EACH OTHER. It's a very small business. They exchange experience and stuff like that.

The only country in world where there are a lot of acquirers is USA. There is no other country like it.

Why? Because in USA Visa made a tactical mistake - they didnt limit the amount of processors.
In the business where the service between competitors is the same (You cant have a good or a bad processor, the credit card either gets processed or not) the only thing left for competition is prices.
Therefore the cheapest processing one can find is USA.

After that stuff VISA started to limit the amount of acquirers in other countries so that the profit stays higher cause the prices or processing are higher.

For example as opposed to USA where there are 60 I think or so acquirers:

In Netherlands there are only 3 acquirers. Only 1 is e-commerce capable.
In Germany - 4 or 5.
In Norway - 1
In Denmark - 1
In Russia - only 3 are capable of e-commerce transactions out of 8.
In UK (headquarters of EU e-commerce) - 7 or so.


Now lets see ON RUMOURS.
I will NOT say that this information is correct and I pass it as it was passed to me. I will not name big or average size billing companies who still operate because I have no wish to interfere with their business, just some notes for Your info.

In Netherlands - at least 2 or 3 billing companies has numerously fucked the only acquirer present there (Globosale for example processed lolita transactions there, Dutchbilling didnt even check for CVV2).

In Germany - PAGO was fucked by all big billing companies who promised heaven on earth and brought hell.

In Norway - VisionBill was even listed on www.visa.no till poor vikings realised VisionBill does not sell exactly BOOKS. :rolleyes:

In Denmark , in a SACRED COUNTRY FOR ADULT TRANSACTIONS because other than Holland it's the only place left in EU where adult is 200% legal, the only acquirer (PBS) was fucked by one of the big 3 companies You know as long as several years ago for tens of millions of USD.

In Russia - all 3 e-commerce capable processors , solid as rock, beleive it or not, were fucked by SunBill/BillCards , SiteKey and a few more lolita billing companies. In the end a hell of chargebacks came along with authorities (no wonder heh? :D ).

In UK - nobody it seems was fucked. British are smart dudes!


The problem with these companies , third party billers, is that they make huge bucks on processing and they will do ANYTHING to keep it this way.
Every trick in the book.

[cj]

:wnw:

welcome redeye ... I hope you will stick around in the oprano gumbo - in 2 posts you brought more flavor than the entire gfy influx!

thank you for the lesson - very interesting reading ;-)

I had a meeting this morning with an sms billing provider & my mind was spinning from numbers after that conversation ... one thing is for sure, NOBODY can predict what will happen a year from now & its going to be a rough ride finding out!!

[RedEye]

You see, the situation is very interesting.

Look at facts:
Out of 8 or 9 billing companies which were closed in August more than 6 have been operating with a merchant account which didnt even belong to them. Speak about rules!

None of those companies stayed even close to chargeback regulations or comply with even FUCKING SIMPLE VISA AIS (EU) /CISP (USA) security recommendations (which require 2 firewalls and 2 separate servers for accepting cards).

By the way , You got to realise one very interesting thing, according to the technology or processing it is impossible to calculate chargebacks for credit card associations in relation to the sales period. Therefore chargebacks are applied to the exact month when they actually came.

For example if You have made 100 000$ in December out of which You got
2% of chargebacks originating from these sales, however chargebacks mostly come in 3 monthes. So You get them in February. If in February Your volume is 200 000$ You are looking only at 1% of chargebacks. That's probably the reason of PSW conflict with ECB-Leumi. I am very sorry if I am wrong, it's just pure guessing, but I will NOT be suprised if I am correct, ECB guys realised that the real chargeback ratio of PSW is over 2% or more however they kept growing volume so the actual chargeback ratio on paper indeed stayed below allowed by the contract regulations. What were they supposed to do then?

So look what happens:
VISA and MC are not able to close down completely third party billers because that is very difficult to do with all the publicity which obviously is going to be a living hell and....VISA technically is not able to DISCRIMINATE in business.

Which means that if VISA closes down Ibill it is supposed to close down 2Checkout.com as well. Try closing THEM down, they dont do adult You know.

If VISA does not close down Ibill, CCBill and Epoch than technically others including new companies are supposed to be able to run billing companies as well.

So what VISA does is the only thing possible - slowly making the rules worse and worse in order to force clients out of them without being prosecuted immediately for monopoly or whatever else.

Because as soon as normal clients will go looking for merchant accounts banks themselves will evolve cause these clients are good enough to work with.
And that is exactly what is going on now.

Hope I was helpfull and sorry for my english.
:-)

[RedEye]

Originally posted by cj@Dec 6 2003, 12:27 AM
:wnw:

welcome redeye ... I hope you will stick around in the oprano gumbo - in 2 posts you brought more flavor than the entire gfy influx!

thank you for the lesson - very interesting reading ;-)

I had a meeting this morning with an sms billing provider & my mind was spinning from numbers after that conversation ... one thing is for sure, NOBODY can predict what will happen a year from now & its going to be a rough ride finding out!!
Thanks!
:-)

Just trying my best.

[slavdogg]

interesting reading RedEYe
thank you

and welcome to Oprano, hope you stick around !

[Hell Puppy]

Absolutely excellent points....and likely not far off the mark at all.

These are the types of things that I think we all know deep down, but dont like to think about too much.

The entire business model is going to need to change ultimately. Long over due in my opinion.

And another thing that needs to change is remove anonymity. Most of the scams on the internet occur because the person perpetrating whatever the scam is has the ability to remain anonymous and still profit. You eliminate a fair amount of fraud by getting rid of things like automatic instant signup for affiliates. Some basic verification should be performed....mail the signup code to a physical address if need be.

[RedEye]

well... In Russia we solved the affiliates problem relatively easy.

Its difficult to control who the resellers are...So dont do it too much.
:-)
Let it be done by somebody else. Somebody who has to do it to survive - i.e. control where You send the moneys.

Because any fraud doesnt make sense if You cant cash what You stole.

What we do - we dont send money to cashing unfriendly online banking systems.
You see, it's easy to even have an anonymous real bank account because it is always possible to fake personal documents and get a bank account registered on a fake personality.

However it is relatively difficult for a 15 year old crazy hacker fucker.
And serious guys from the fraud niche who have all the anonymous banking they need, they wont fuck with several signups on a partnership program.

However there are systems out there which allow young dumb fucks to cash their funds anonymously.

Examples: Webmoney in Russia.
E-Gold in USA.

So the answer is very easy - dont send money there.
There are solutions like that which are friendly to the adult webmaster community who will probably always help You if You have a frauder in Your system, block his account, get his private info. Stop him from frauding others.

Examples: E-Passporte (in USA)
Fethard.biz (in Russia)

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by slavdogg@Dec 6 2003, 03:47 AM
interesting reading RedEYe
thank you

and welcome to Oprano, hope you stick around !
he has no choice....I am charging him $$$,
he has a vested interest in his investment
;-))))

[RedEye]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Dec 6 2003, 01:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Dec 6 2003, 01:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--slavdogg@Dec 6 2003, 03:47 AM
interesting reading RedEYe
thank you

and welcome to Oprano, hope you stick around !
he has no choice....I am charging him $$$,
he has a vested interest in his investment
;-))))[/b][/quote]
and that IS so true....I just cant object!
:D

[sextoyking]

Redeye,

Welcome to Oprano.

Some good reading there :)

[Shoplifter]

I absolutely agree with you Redeye, the issue is not for the most part adult content but rather the factoring without any sort of accountability that is going on. I know it totally horrifies Visa.

I don't see the total shutdown of the industry soon, but I do think negative option rebilling will have to go. If any other business did this it would be a scandal, and in fact negative option billing is actually illegal in Canada and some other countries.

Are all the processors (except Verotel) using Bank of Leumi in the EU right now?









:bjump:

[slavdogg]

whats negative option billing ?

[Winetalk.com]

You if You have a frauder in Your system, block his account, get his private info. Stop him from frauding others.
************************************************


for some reason, when I read this written by Russian, it has MUCH MORE subtle meaning than if it was written by American
;-)))

get his private info. Stop him from frauding others.
the Russian way :-)


http://cotac.com/clow.jpG

[RedEye]

Originally posted by Shoplifter@Dec 6 2003, 02:25 AM
I absolutely agree with you Redeye, the issue is not for the most part adult content but rather the factoring without any sort of accountability that is going on. I know it totally horrifies Visa.

I don't see the total shutdown of the industry soon, but I do think negative option rebilling will have to go. If any other business did this it would be a scandal, and in fact negative option billing is actually illegal in Canada and some other countries.

Are all the processors (except Verotel) using Bank of Leumi in the EU right now?









:bjump:
No. Far from it.

The Leumi is used at this moment only by Ibill and CCBill as far as I know.
Have no idea about Epoch.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by cj@Dec 6 2003, 04:27 AM
:wnw:

welcome redeye ... I hope you will stick around in the oprano gumbo - in 2 posts you brought more flavor than the entire gfy influx!

thank you for the lesson - very interesting reading ;-)
Wow - no kidding! Very good info and a very interesting read, Redeye :) Welcome and many thanks! :rokk:

[art]

Originally posted by RedEye@Dec 6 2003, 06:00 AM
The Leumi is used at this moment only by Ibill and CCBill as far as I know.
Have no idea about Epoch.
Epoch doesn't process for EU customers. Unfortunately.



Last edited by art at Dec 6 2003, 10:05 AM

[RedEye]

Glad I was helpfull.

Be sure if You can to share some experience on this subject if You got it as well. Knowledge never hurts You know.
:)

[Rolo]

Good posts RedEye

One thing we need to remember when talking about processing is that "EVERYONE is here for the money" - only politicians can fuck with that simple rule.

VISA/MC has no real problem with adult - only times they get mad are:

- when it costs them money
- when their brand is getting bad publicity

VISA/MC do not like 3rd party billers, because it can cost them money, and because they have no control over their brands.

Recurring billing will not go away from the adult industry as long as VISA/MC makes money on it. VISA/MC will (and have) changed "the who and how" behind recurring billing, and it will lead to less people being in the business.



Last edited by Rolo at Dec 6 2003, 09:41 AM

[RedEye]

Originally posted by Rolo@Dec 6 2003, 09:38 AM
Good posts RedEye

One thing we need to remember when talking about processing is that "EVERYONE is here for the money" - only politicians can fuck with that simple rule.

VISA/MC has no real problem with adult - only times they get mad are:

- when it costs them money
- when their brand is getting bad publicity

VISA/MC do not like 3rd party billers, because it can cost them money, and because they have no control over their brands.

Recurring billing will not go away from the adult industry as long as VISA/MC makes money on it. VISA/MC will (and have) changed "the who and how" behind recurring billing, and it will lead to less people being in the business.
Let me explain.

The processing in the world slowly but seriously moves towards a new protocol of acquiring transactions. The protocol is called 3D Secure.

Basicly as I understand it it's the same as Verify By Visa with the exception that the password for internet purchases by customer is being kept by the customer's bank.

All banks are recommended to support it.

I'll explain.

For example Your bank is Barclays Bank and You have a credit card of that bank. Now Barclays is supposed to contact You and offer You to input a special password for internet purchases on their website. The password is being kept only at their site.

At the time You attempt a purchase in the system which is connected through 3D Secure You will be required to enter the password and it will be matched directly with Your bank.

Therefore it is very difficult to fraud with this protocol because basicly in the majority of cases one would need to hack banks websites to get passwords.

Then the so-called "liability shift" occures. If later You attempt to make a chargeback more than half attempts will be declined and the merchant and the acquirer, and the PSP of course, are no longer liable for chargebacks. To be exact if You say "It was not me" the bank will no longer approve the chargeback.

The most interesting thing is what happens if Your bank does not support 3D Secure but the transaction went through that protocol. I.E. If the PSP has 3D Secure but Your bank doesnt the PSP will still make the transaction the old way but the shift occures anyway and the merchant if he is connected through such PSP is not liable for chargebacks. Why? Because generally it costs 20-30K $ and a couple of monthes for a bank to install 3D Secure and everyone was supposed to do it a year ago, so technically they are reliable for not supporting it.

However, just as with Verify by Visa these protocols seem not to support recurring charges at this time , at least not from the side of processor or PSP. The acquirer MIGHT have a difficult possibility to run recurring payments with 3D Secure but as of yet it's a rumour.

Although 3D Secure is quite new, so not too much is known about it.

[art]

Originally posted by RedEye@Dec 6 2003, 12:54 PM
Although 3D Secure is quite new, so not too much is known about it.
Those who want to read more about it could check this: http://international.visa.com/fb/paytech/s...secure/main.jsp (http://international.visa.com/fb/paytech/secure/main.jsp)

[Rolo]

Ofcourse VISA/MC want to increase consumer confidence, so more people will use their credit cards on the internet.

However *IMO* even after 3D have been released and adopted, then recurring will be possible, because its good for business and consumers want it.

You will probably not be able to receive chargeback protection on none qualifying 3D transactions, but you will still be able to process.
VISA/MC will keep lowering chargeback rates, at the same speed as more of the internet business moves to 3D, so in time it might be very risky to "blindly" do recurring transactions.

[*KK*]

Quite a few of your assumptions are incorrect redeye, especially in regards to the status of 'third party' billing companies, which are legitimate IPSPs when they are set up correctly. One only has to look to the compliance situation, which is controlled by one entity for the entire Visa system...

I'm out and about now but when I get back I'll pick apart some of your statements for comment if you like. :)

[Hooper]

While everybody is talking about cb's.

Anybody have any experience fighting "Product not as described" chargebacks?

I've seen a few of these and am always shocked because it seems like the card issuing bank is involving themselves in what should be a customer service issue. The customer isnt required to return or destroy the product and thus far we have been unable to come up with a compellign argument for reversing the chargeback.

[Rolo]

Hooper, is it a tangible or subscription product?

[Hooper]

tangible

[Carrie]

Originally posted by Hooper@Dec 6 2003, 04:56 PM
While everybody is talking about cb's.

Anybody have any experience fighting "Product not as described" chargebacks?

I've seen a few of these and am always shocked because it seems like the card issuing bank is involving themselves in what should be a customer service issue. The customer isnt required to return or destroy the product and thus far we have been unable to come up with a compellign argument for reversing the chargeback.
On those I'd check the URL that the signup originally came from and see if an affiliate is doing something like promising a 50 midget gangbang with Asia Carrerra.
You might not be able to fight it once the person charges back, but you could prevent more.

[Hooper]

thx for the input carrie but it's not the kind of product that is confusing. sorry i'm not sharing a bunch of details, but it's for some unreleased things.

Really this is the same as somebody going to amazon, buying a book and then charging back because the reviews werent accurate.

On high dollar transactions clearly you'd initate collections, but what about 20 or 30 buck transactions?

[Rolo]

Well, this sometimes work for tangible products, but since you said that you do not require the customer to return the product, then it might be harder than normal?

Let them know that you have not received the product back from the customer. Include any contact you had, with the customer or let them know if the customer has not contacted you.
Also send them a copy of the web page that displays your mailing address and return information/policy, so they can see that you have made it very clear for the customer to contact you and/or return products.

Some banks want to work with you, however most will just process any internet related chargeback their cardholders want - no matter how much proof you got. Sad but true!

[Carrie]

Ahh sorry Hooper you were posting "tangible" the same time I was posting my suggestion.
Rolo's advice above sounds right on the money. :okthumb:

Also if you haven't done it yet, you might want to include a page with the invoice and product that outlines your return procedure, mailing address etc, or even a "product registration" card. If they return the card then they're registering the product and are evidently happy with it, yes? Might be more ammo in the event of a future chargeback.

[cj]

Originally posted by Hooper@Dec 6 2003, 11:14 PM
thx for the input carrie but it's not the kind of product that is confusing. sorry i'm not sharing a bunch of details, but it's for some unreleased things.

Really this is the same as somebody going to amazon, buying a book and then charging back because the reviews werent accurate.

On high dollar transactions clearly you'd initate collections, but what about 20 or 30 buck transactions?
i'm not sure the type of product you are referring to but if it was something along the line of natural penis enlargement pills, breast enlargement pills, or any of these other products which are not much above a scam - i'd say there wouldn't be much defense ... but if it was an actual tangible product that worked and was exactly as described, why the fuck does the customer not have to return it?!?!? that's fucked up!!!

can't really comment much though without knowing what product you are talking about and how you are selling it to the customer ...

[sarettah]

Originally posted by RedEye@Dec 6 2003, 02:47 AM
Suppose Mustafa in Saudi Arabia purchases 3 day trial membership for www.fuckingelephants.com through www.fuckingbill.com which is against for example the holy book of Koran since fucking elephants in an unholy act according to the book. The secret service of Saudi Arabia according to the civil law there finds Mustafa and cuts off his penis and kills all of his relatives.

Poor Mustafa.......and we thought Ashcroft was bad..... :blink:

[RedEye]

Originally posted by *KK*@Dec 6 2003, 12:21 PM
Quite a few of your assumptions are incorrect redeye, especially in regards to the status of 'third party' billing companies, which are legitimate IPSPs when they are set up correctly. One only has to look to the compliance situation, which is controlled by one entity for the entire Visa system...

I'm out and about now but when I get back I'll pick apart some of your statements for comment if you like. :)
I'd love to hear Your comment KK and experience however I doubt that You are correct in this issue.

The processing basicly works under the following scheme in the world (simplified of course):

Issuing Bank - VisaNet - Acquiring Bank - Merchant - Customer.

In between the Acquiring Bank and the Merchant a sales body can be existing: PSP , which is different from IPSP and stands simply for Payment Service Provider. So the chain looks like:

Issuing Bank - VisaNet - Acquiring Bank - PSP - Merchant - Customer.

There are quite a few out there , most if not all do not do anything related to adult.

Examples: WorldPay, SecPay, SureFire, Paysystems and so on.

These companies are authorised by acquiring banks to process transactions on behalf of the bank and to organise more or less sales , since the bank itself is not able to do it due to many reasons (I know of only 1 acquiring bank managing everything inhouse, although I think there are more and that system is Barclays EPDQ), however there must be a direct relationship in between the bank and the merchant and merchants must be on separate MIDs (Merchant IDs, some call them merchant accounts).

There are no exceptions by Visa bylaws and regulations.

Well let me rephrase it, untill a year ago or when was it, there WERE no exceptions.

The reason behind it is very simple , no body in most of the countries of the world (the tribe of hannibals on the island of Lu-Lu is an exception, however their neighbours hannibals from the island of Ku-Ku are adopting bank licenses already :D ) is allowed to operate with third parties moneys unless than body is licensed as a bank in case the funds come from general public or have a limited license if the funds originate from prewritten in the license origins like exact companies which will send them.

The exception however exists in the general laws that if the body is just passing through funds of third parties without ANY interference with them it is allowed to operate without license. I.E. if the company just gets the funds from bank for its clients it is ok. The following applies to Europe where we payed quite a lot to worlds 4th largest legal company for the research on this subject.

However the company may not create or mantain accounts. This is called that funds on DEMAND are prohibited without license.

It is quite complicated. Read it three times to get some understanding of it.
:D
So third party billing companies BY LAW are allowed to exist only as money transfering companies however they do not fit into the processing chain because unless licensed as a bank they will not be able to be plugged into VISA NET directly and therefore will never have a possibility to mantain separate accounts of their own for merchants.

I'll make it simplier - the legal bodies which aggregate clients transactions and route transactions to the VISA NET and make the processing itself (i.e. take the money from the card, put the money on to the merchant account, transfer it further or block it or hold it or whatever) exist and are called acquiring banks.

For a majority of such operations the body has to be either the bank or be licensed as a bank BY LAW and not by Visa regulations.

While the internet evolved the banks were not ready themselves to play by the rules. They still are not ready.
The process of getting a merchant account is still quite complicated.

So nobody cared about companies processing in breach with rules and sometimes law (take PayPal for example or all systems of e-money) because it helped the net to evolve.

However now it has to be fit into normal laws which essentially is good for everyone. When You have a direct relationship with a bank You are protected by LAW that You will in fact see Your money if You are pornographer or not. And everyone else is protected by LAW that if You fuck up it will be You who is liable and not everyone else around You. Of course the bank will not smile to You saying "Hey! You do porn! You're a great client!" but that is the price You got to pay for making more money than the rest of dudes around You - that is normal.

As for IPSP regulations - they are just a way to at least normalise somehow the situation, billing companies have to go away, but slowly without scandals and publicity and other things which can hurt the e-commerce too much and throw it back to the stone age.

The IPSP regulations in fact have been applied only at two acquirers in fact (may be I am wrong here). At FDMS and PAGO in Germany to the existing huge aggregators (Ibill and so on). However they were forced straight away from PAGO and this stuff now is active only at FDMS.

The funny stuff is the following thing which has occured: There is NO other acquiring bank in the world I think now which will require You to get VISA approval prior processing for each URL on Your own merchant account and that is FDMS (through their sales body CardServiceInt). That's right. If You apply for Your own merchant account in FDMS through CardServiceInt You will have to send in just the same way as on Ibill for example all Your URLs prior processing to VISA for approval. The approval takes 1 month by the way.

In all other acquiring banks in the world You get Your merchant account for Your company and run as many sites under it as You want, as long as they are Your sites, You may only be required to show them from time to time.

As I said already - the descrimination laws are quite a serious thing to consider.

And of course You can NOT setup a new IPSP. You cant do it correct or incorrect - it's impossible because there is simply no such thing as IPSP towards other companies than Ibill, CCBill and Epoch. May be Verotel recently as well.

I know about SG & FDMS and the way IPSPs are setuped , I also know that recently a very powerfull team including CEO in the near past of the biggest of those billing companies has applied to SG & FDMS for a new IPSP account and of course were declined. The stuff applies only to existing companies which are too big to be shut down immediately at least in FDMS in USA, as You know in PAGO it happened very easily.

KK do You stand for KimmyKim excuse me for my ignorance? If so I know of Your obsession (in the good sense of the word) with IPSP rules, we even met couple of times in debates on this subject on GFY, my nickname there is "Incognito". When You were in CCBill I didnt like Your approach so I might have been a bit too rude, please excuse me, because I thought it was just ignorant promotion of CCBill, however when You quit that company I have changed my mind because I understood that You are simply very very interested in the subject.

By the way I have those rules , a copy of IPSP rules from VisaInt , London on my computer.

So whenever You are trying to understand what is right or what is wrong just look on the following chaing again:

Issuing Bank - VisaNet - Acquiring Bank - PSP - Merchant - Customer.

It is the only correct chain.
And whenever You apply for a merchant account , if it's NOT for adult , be sure that the body claiming that it is an Acquirer is indeed and Acquiring Bank.

There is a shit load of fraud right now on the net because so many people look for merchant accounts with no real understanding of how the stuff really is that everything is possible.
:)

For adult though, in most cases now, the link looks like:
Issuing Bank - VisaNet - Acquiring Bank - SomeBullshit - PSP - Merchant - Customer.

Where SomeBullshit is a company which belongs to the Acquiring Bank and is happilly called either a gateway or a designated bank processor or some other word or a PSP. The Banks are scared to open real direct merchant accounts right now so they put a company in between and open Your merchant account in that company so You dont have direct relationship.

It's completely off the rules book as well however at this moment it's not really dangerous cause Visa doesnt seem to complain about it as long as merchants go on separate merchant accounts whomever holds them and it's the bank which is behind it anyway so everything is fine. That's what they now do in offshore banks acquirers and in Israel.
The only thing You have to be sure of is that it is indeed the banks establishment. Because there are a lot of frauders there. Examples of popular frauders:
Ecommerce Services UK , QwikPay, CEE KEy, EdenCom.

An easy way to find out is simply if You see the bank name somewhere in the process of running that merchant account. There always is a contract of SOME sort or an application to the bank or contact with the bank even if the merchant account is opened in this intermediary company.
Companies like Ecommerce Services UK open You a merchant account in their own gateway and DO NOT let You see the bank behind it. If WHEN You are approved (prior to approval a lot of companies hide the bank name, although some do not) You find out that You are not allowed to see ANY bank at all in Your processing - it's fraud.

Also dont be suprised that frauders often areserious employees of banks, acquirers , known billing companies (Epoch, Ibill, CCbill as well) in the past of present.

One of the worst frauders for example WAS Edencom from France. Edencom processed for a shit load of russian lolita paysites year ago. Most of smaller billing companies were plugged into it (like BillCards, just smaller)

Know what?

The person who was forwarding webmasters (russian as well) to Edencom, an intermediary between Edencom and other dudes is a CURRENT employee in the Netherlands of a very respected acquirer from Sweden - Netgiro.
The guys who worked in Edencom were all previous employees in Coca-Cola.

As I said the best way to see if it's fraud or not - if they allow You to see the bank.

In normal e-commerce , non adult, there is a lot of similar fraud as well.
There is a shit load of PSPs plugged in to other PSPs and so forth. Which is not allowed as well.
In normal e-commerce the chain is very simple and looks only like this:

Issuing Bank - VisaNet - Acquiring Bank - PSP - Merchant - Customer.

Whatever is in between means charging You more money and against the rules.

Hope I was helpfull.
Again if anybody wants to share experience, lets do it.
:D

[gonzo]

Originally posted by RedEye+Dec 7 2003, 05:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RedEye @ Dec 7 2003, 05:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--*KK*@Dec 6 2003, 12:21 PM
Quite a few of your assumptions are incorrect redeye, especially in regards to the status of 'third party' billing companies, which are legitimate IPSPs when they are set up correctly. One only has to look to the compliance situation, which is controlled by one entity for the entire Visa system...

I'm out and about now but when I get back I'll pick apart some of your statements for comment if you like. :)
I'd love to hear Your comment KK and experience however I doubt that You are correct in this issue.

The processing basicly works under the following scheme in the world (simplified of course):

Issuing Bank - VisaNet - Acquiring Bank - Merchant - Customer.

In between the Acquiring Bank and the Merchant a sales body can be existing: PSP , which is different from IPSP and stands simply for Payment Service Provider. So the chain looks like:

Issuing Bank - VisaNet - Acquiring Bank - PSP - Merchant - Customer.

There are quite a few out there , most if not all do not do anything related to adult.

Examples: WorldPay, SecPay, SureFire, Paysystems and so on.

These companies are authorised by acquiring banks to process transactions on behalf of the bank and to organise more or less sales , since the bank itself is not able to do it due to many reasons (I know of only 1 acquiring bank managing everything inhouse, although I think there are more and that system is Barclays EPDQ), however there must be a direct relationship in between the bank and the merchant and merchants must be on separate MIDs (Merchant IDs, some call them merchant accounts).

There are no exceptions by Visa bylaws and regulations.

Well let me rephrase it, untill a year ago or when was it, there WERE no exceptions.

The reason behind it is very simple , no body in most of the countries of the world (the tribe of hannibals on the island of Lu-Lu is an exception, however their neighbours hannibals from the island of Ku-Ku are adopting bank licenses already :D ) is allowed to operate with third parties moneys unless than body is licensed as a bank in case the funds come from general public or have a limited license if the funds originate from prewritten in the license origins like exact companies which will send them.

The exception however exists in the general laws that if the body is just passing through funds of third parties without ANY interference with them it is allowed to operate without license. I.E. if the company just gets the funds from bank for its clients it is ok. The following applies to Europe where we payed quite a lot to worlds 4th largest legal company for the research on this subject.

However the company may not create or mantain accounts. This is called that funds on DEMAND are prohibited without license.

It is quite complicated. Read it three times to get some understanding of it.
:D
So third party billing companies BY LAW are allowed to exist only as money transfering companies however they do not fit into the processing chain because unless licensed as a bank they will not be able to be plugged into VISA NET directly and therefore will never have a possibility to mantain separate accounts of their own for merchants.

I'll make it simplier - the legal bodies which aggregate clients transactions and route transactions to the VISA NET and make the processing itself (i.e. take the money from the card, put the money on to the merchant account, transfer it further or block it or hold it or whatever) exist and are called acquiring banks.

For a majority of such operations the body has to be either the bank or be licensed as a bank BY LAW and not by Visa regulations.

While the internet evolved the banks were not ready themselves to play by the rules. They still are not ready.
The process of getting a merchant account is still quite complicated.

So nobody cared about companies processing in breach with rules and sometimes law (take PayPal for example or all systems of e-money) because it helped the net to evolve.

However now it has to be fit into normal laws which essentially is good for everyone. When You have a direct relationship with a bank You are protected by LAW that You will in fact see Your money if You are pornographer or not. And everyone else is protected by LAW that if You fuck up it will be You who is liable and not everyone else around You. Of course the bank will not smile to You saying "Hey! You do porn! You're a great client!" but that is the price You got to pay for making more money than the rest of dudes around You - that is normal.

As for IPSP regulations - they are just a way to at least normalise somehow the situation, billing companies have to go away, but slowly without scandals and publicity and other things which can hurt the e-commerce too much and throw it back to the stone age.

The IPSP regulations in fact have been applied only at two acquirers in fact (may be I am wrong here). At FDMS and PAGO in Germany to the existing huge aggregators (Ibill and so on). However they were forced straight away from PAGO and this stuff now is active only at FDMS.

The funny stuff is the following thing which has occured: There is NO other acquiring bank in the world I think now which will require You to get VISA approval prior processing for each URL on Your own merchant account and that is FDMS (through their sales body CardServiceInt). That's right. If You apply for Your own merchant account in FDMS through CardServiceInt You will have to send in just the same way as on Ibill for example all Your URLs prior processing to VISA for approval. The approval takes 1 month by the way.

In all other acquiring banks in the world You get Your merchant account for Your company and run as many sites under it as You want, as long as they are Your sites, You may only be required to show them from time to time.

As I said already - the descrimination laws are quite a serious thing to consider.

And of course You can NOT setup a new IPSP. You cant do it correct or incorrect - it's impossible because there is simply no such thing as IPSP towards other companies than Ibill, CCBill and Epoch. May be Verotel recently as well.

I know about SG & FDMS and the way IPSPs are setuped , I also know that recently a very powerfull team including CEO in the near past of the biggest of those billing companies has applied to SG & FDMS for a new IPSP account and of course were declined. The stuff applies only to existing companies which are too big to be shut down immediately at least in FDMS in USA, as You know in PAGO it happened very easily.

KK do You stand for KimmyKim excuse me for my ignorance? If so I know of Your obsession (in the good sense of the word) with IPSP rules, we even met couple of times in debates on this subject on GFY, my nickname there is "Incognito". When You were in CCBill I didnt like Your approach so I might have been a bit too rude, please excuse me, because I thought it was just ignorant promotion of CCBill, however when You quit that company I have changed my mind because I understood that You are simply very very interested in the subject.

By the way I have those rules , a copy of IPSP rules from VisaInt , London on my computer.

So whenever You are trying to understand what is right or what is wrong just look on the following chaing again:

Issuing Bank - VisaNet - Acquiring Bank - PSP - Merchant - Customer.

It is the only correct chain.
And whenever You apply for a merchant account , if it's NOT for adult , be sure that the body claiming that it is an Acquirer is indeed and Acquiring Bank.

There is a shit load of fraud right now on the net because so many people look for merchant accounts with no real understanding of how the stuff really is that everything is possible.
:)

For adult though, in most cases now, the link looks like:
Issuing Bank - VisaNet - Acquiring Bank - SomeBullshit - PSP - Merchant - Customer.

Where SomeBullshit is a company which belongs to the Acquiring Bank and is happilly called either a gateway or a designated bank processor or some other word or a PSP. The Banks are scared to open real direct merchant accounts right now so they put a company in between and open Your merchant account in that company so You dont have direct relationship.

It's completely off the rules book as well however at this moment it's not really dangerous cause Visa doesnt seem to complain about it as long as merchants go on separate merchant accounts whomever holds them and it's the bank which is behind it anyway so everything is fine. That's what they now do in offshore banks acquirers and in Israel.
The only thing You have to be sure of is that it is indeed the banks establishment. Because there are a lot of frauders there. Examples of popular frauders:
Ecommerce Services UK , QwikPay, CEE KEy, EdenCom.

An easy way to find out is simply if You see the bank name somewhere in the process of running that merchant account. There always is a contract of SOME sort or an application to the bank or contact with the bank even if the merchant account is opened in this intermediary company.
Companies like Ecommerce Services UK open You a merchant account in their own gateway and DO NOT let You see the bank behind it. If WHEN You are approved (prior to approval a lot of companies hide the bank name, although some do not) You find out that You are not allowed to see ANY bank at all in Your processing - it's fraud.

Also dont be suprised that frauders often areserious employees of banks, acquirers , known billing companies (Epoch, Ibill, CCbill as well) in the past of present.

One of the worst frauders for example WAS Edencom from France. Edencom processed for a shit load of russian lolita paysites year ago. Most of smaller billing companies were plugged into it (like BillCards, just smaller)

Know what?

The person who was forwarding webmasters (russian as well) to Edencom, an intermediary between Edencom and other dudes is a CURRENT employee in the Netherlands of a very respected acquirer from Sweden - Netgiro.
The guys who worked in Edencom were all previous employees in Coca-Cola.

As I said the best way to see if it's fraud or not - if they allow You to see the bank.

In normal e-commerce , non adult, there is a lot of similar fraud as well.
There is a shit load of PSPs plugged in to other PSPs and so forth. Which is not allowed as well.
In normal e-commerce the chain is very simple and looks only like this:

Issuing Bank - VisaNet - Acquiring Bank - PSP - Merchant - Customer.

Whatever is in between means charging You more money and against the rules.

Hope I was helpfull.
Again if anybody wants to share experience, lets do it.
:D[/b][/quote]
Serge thanks for the new recruit. I like this guy.
He dont act like hes got some mystical processing powers!.

Post away RedEye!! I dare say we all are interested in this topic.

[Kevin2]

RedEye i love all this information and it is a learning experience for me. Thank you so much for posting it.

I have my own merchant account which I use for non adult. Would it be a good idea to start looking into processing some of my adult transactions through it or not? My bank didn't mention anything about Adult transactions at all and I don't want to mention it to them.

[RedEye]

Originally posted by Kevin2@Dec 7 2003, 04:36 PM
RedEye i love all this information and it is a learning experience for me. Thank you so much for posting it.

I have my own merchant account which I use for non adult. Would it be a good idea to start looking into processing some of my adult transactions through it or not? My bank didn't mention anything about Adult transactions at all and I don't want to mention it to them.
That depends on where Your merchant account is and what volume.
But generally - no. It's not a good idea.

Each transaction is supposed to carry an MCC code, which is a descriptor code showing VISA what product was purchased.

Adult has it's own code (who remembers it? 5567 or some shit like that) and processing adult transactions on a different code is a violation so You'd have to talk to bank first.

However it depends on the bank and Your relations with them and the volume You have in adult.

If You know them for years and Your volume is around 50 000$ a month or so , not half a million You know, chances are they wont give a fuck about VISA rules cause nobody but them is going to notice it ever.

A guy I know has a rape fantasy site for 5 years in USA. One of the first sites like that in the net. He was kicked out from Ibill and CCBill and Paypal but he always used them secondary and processes his primary sales FOR FIVE YEARS already through his own USA merchant account and I doubt that unless FBI will come anyone ever going to stop him from the bank side.

But You will have to ask the bank. Dont do it without asking.
For sure. Cause the gateway and the bank will probably see what kind of transactions You have pretty soon and for sure when chargebacks come.

But generally I know quite a lot of people who process their own adult sites on non adult merchant accounts.

At the same time some acquirers are obsessive about it.

By the way , this MCC Code stuff, is the main problem of all gaming merchants. VISA will kick Your ass worse than if You sell child pornography featuring Ben Laden if You run a gaming site with generic MCC code because in this case US gamers are able to play, which they are not supposed to because US banks block gaming transactions right by that code.

[Hell Puppy]

Wasn't KimmyKim supposed to come in here and pick all of this to pieces?

:agrin:

[RedEye]

Of course it's definetely not a good idea to do anything like that in an acquirer like CSI (FDMS) where VISA stays at day and night with a SWAT team ready for intrusion.
:D
There though it's gonna be relatively easy to change the merchant account to adult MCC coding.

By the way, does anybody know how is it possible to put different MMC codes on one merchant account? It must be possible, because in the system as far as I know the code applies to a transaction, not to the whole merchant account.

[RedEye]

Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Dec 7 2003, 08:57 PM
Wasn't KimmyKim supposed to come in here and pick all of this to pieces?

:agrin:
:D

[Mystery Man]

Nice info Redeye - Good reading... reminds me of the old ynot and netpond days.... (small tear runs down my chin)


Anywho... since you seem to know your stuff about this I have a few questions/corrections for you.

1. PBS in Denmark, you say they are still open for adult transactions right?
- They are not. PBS Do process for adult still but its only for Dankort which is like a danish Amex. VISA/Mastercard was taken down this year.

2. This is a question.
- I know that Interpay the dutch gateway, which supposely are owned by Mastercard and some dutch banks are putting off processing for their adult merchants if you run sites such as pissing, bondage etc in that niche.
And this is not a ruling by VISA but by InterPay itself. Is there any truth to this?

3. It has been said that InterPay will stop all adult merchants that process bestiality in the first months of 04, that's atleast the rumours. The other rumours are they wont as they are affraid of lawsuits, which one is it?

I have more questions, but it's late here and I need my beauty sleep lol.

So hopefully you have answered my questions by the time I return.



Last edited by Mystery Man at Dec 7 2003, 09:25 PM

[RedEye]

Originally posted by Mystery Man@Dec 7 2003, 09:24 PM
Nice info Redeye - Good reading... reminds me of the old ynot and netpond days.... (small tear runs down my chin)


Anywho... since you seem to know your stuff about this I have a few questions/corrections for you.

1. PBS in Denmark, you say they are still open for adult transactions right?
- They are not. PBS Do process for adult still but its only for Dankort which is like a danish Amex. VISA/Mastercard was taken down this year.

2. This is a question.
- I know that Interpay the dutch gateway, which supposely are owned by Mastercard and some dutch banks are putting off processing for their adult merchants if you run sites such as pissing, bondage etc in that niche.
And this is not a ruling by VISA but by InterPay itself. Is there any truth to this?

3. It has been said that InterPay will stop all adult merchants that process bestiality in the first months of 04, that's atleast the rumours. The other rumours are they wont as they are affraid of lawsuits, which one is it?

I have more questions, but it's late here and I need my beauty sleep lol.

So hopefully you have answered my questions by the time I return.
I hate posting on forums about existing companies.
I'm not sure if it was said, but I run a lot of things including Russia's largest adult webmaster board , Serge reffered to it once - Krutop.

I already had a bad experience trying to setup cc processing in Russia when I came in to the biggest Russian acquirer (huge bank, big even by western standarts, the main promoter of VISA in Russia) to the vice head of E-Commerce department and have been speaking for 30 minutes about processing opportunities , our dutch companies, been trying to explain what "high risk commerce" means and when I went on to the subject of IPSP rules in USA, this vice head of e-commerce whom I never met before, suddenly said

"Yep I read about this IPSP stuff. Somewhere on Crutop. Hello RedEye."
:zoinks:

Anyway, back to subject:

1. I never said PBS does adult. Quite on the contrary.
PBS doesnt do adult for already several years after one of three big billing companies in USA fucked them for millions and millions.

2 & 3. You got it all wrong a bit.
InterPay Nederlands is not a gateway. "Gateway" usually means Payment Service Provider (PSP). InterPay Nederlands is not exactly a payment service provider , :D , it is one of a few largest acquiring banks in Europe. InterPay is owned by dutch banks including ABN Amro and ING which are among top 20 banks in the world.
InterPay is a sole representative of MasterCard in Netherlands and is a major co-owner of MasterCard Europe.

Sometimes when MasterCard comes somewhere officially to establish processing it's the InterPay which really comes.

There are several gateways (PSPs) plugged into InterPay at this moment of which only 1 officially allows adult and that is vxsbill.com which is Your best way to InterPay. There is one other , which is the largest non adult PSP in Europe and it is Ogone.nl, company mentioned along with Bibit in the e-commerce researches of the European Bank which issues Euros, I dont remember it's name, Ogone and Bibit are huge guys, if I am correct Ibill & CCBill are much smaller, but Ogone will take Your merchant account on their gateway only on a very strict case per case basis, although it has been done before. In any case You need Your own merchant account in InterPay which is again difficult to get unless You are dutch.

InterPay has a problem that most of it's adult clients are extreme sites, the problem comes from a very simple fact that InterPay is Dutch and in Netherlands almost all kinds of porn are legal. Therefore the first guys who got problems with processing during these years all went there (zoo, rape , incest and so on).

Generally InterPay does not like porn either. Being dutch does not make them porn lovers You know. In fact they dont love e-commerce too much as well.

They also have as client one of known third party billing companies out there , so together with vxs dudes , who are quite nice by the way if You are nice Yourself, they got it all shared over there and would not like any extra attention, this is one other reason they hate extreme sites. And more or less it's quite natural they dont want anyone to get into their small kingdom.

The problem lies also in the fact that Netherlands is a very legal country so to say. It's the home of Haag, headquarters of law in Europe. If the extreme sites are legal there it is very difficult to cancel services for them due to the fact that InterPay is a monopolist in Netherlands and has enough of bad publicity about that. Besides that, Netherlands is a very small country. Basicly InterPay has a few webmasters who use them whom InterPay and the "kingdom" around it hates (as any kingdom , kings like people to crawl, and hate those who refuse) but is still not able to cancell them. So they have the same game VISA has with Ibill and CCBill - just smaller. Making new rules every day, which probably makes the life in Netherlands less boring for all of them.
:D :D :D

Whom the rules come from by the way, them or VISA/MC is always very difficult to tell.
You have to understand that VISA/MC are membership organisations. Nobody has direct relationships with VISA but acquirers. Acquirers have NDAs with VISA and therefore are never able to release any information which passes in between VISA/MC and the acquirer. That's the answer by the way on the question "why nobody ever saw god damn VISA rules :D we all heard so much about".

To summarise I'd say that InterPay is the best rock solid solution one can find for a direct merchant account for adult these days. However Your acceptance there purely relies if people there like You. Your volume does not matter there unlike other places since InterPay or VXS do not want to have 100 000 000 from adult by tomorrow. They have enough already.

You will not be able to play games like dutch guys do with extreme sites and laws about them, because You are not dutch. Laws do exist and for a dutch person their authorities may indeed prosecute whomever they want to for breaking those laws. This does not include foreigners in the majority of cases with minor exceptions .
:D

[RedEye]

By the way, one thing I wanted to add.

You dont have to be mad on the billing companies always behaving like Credit Card processing is some secret science magic which can not be explained to mere mortals , the Gandalf way of talking.
:D :D :D

The problem is that in the Acquiring banks themselves quite often employees can not figure out what the fuck this rule means and what the fuck that and which one applies and which one doesnt.

We couple of times called to Visa London to the department which issued IPSP rules. Beleive it or not , since the person who signed those rules was unavailable, they coulnt find a single living soul to explain ANYTHING.
:D
Although I spoke to several risk management department managers, to VISA CEMEA and EU reps and this kind of people. And You have to understand - that headquarters for fucks sake!

So what do You want?

Ibill CEO or Epoch CEO coming out here saying: "Hey guys! I got no FUCKING idea what they mean by "principal" , where the fuck Cyprus and Gibraltar are located according to them, what the fuck is 3D Secure and how the fucking hell we now calculate chargebacks according to the latest rules and regulations. Excuse me for not knowing this shit. By the fucking way, guys where should I keep Your 80 million? My top pick is BNP ParisBas guys, but Serge called and said their fees are crap so now what ?"

Remember how Epoch and Ibill did press releases how they gonna run transactions on Verify by Visa and never did? Well...take a hint...

But it's impossible to blame them for it, cause they are not the people who are supposed get the rules and explain them from card associations.

[Rolo]

3rd party processing may evolve into "ticketmaster" type companies due to new rules by VISA/MC, which would also solve alot of the problems ahead (banking rules, VAT/sales taxes, and content laws), but the "ticketmaster" processing will have greater risk of getting closed if they have rotten apples + it will take options away from site owners.

[Rolo]

VISA/MC wants too know who they are doing business with... The games which have been played the last 3-4 years will end. VISA/MC might work slow at times, but they are getting there. However that doesn´t mean that we will see the last of those who will push the rules, which will make it harder for all of us.

[nlphoto]

Some excellent infor here welcome to the gumbo, Redeye... B)

[Madball]

Wasn't KimmyKim supposed to come in here and pick all of this to pieces? :agrin:

HAHAHAH Yea right!

[RedEye]

1. The ticketmaster type of registration if I am not mistaken is bs, just the same as "third party billing" in relation to VISA rules.

The point is very clear - You can not aggregate transactions which belong to different clients into one merchant account.

You are free so to say to develop ticket software being used by many clients, but each client will have to have a separate merchant ID.

The same applies to all virtual money systems (PayPal, E-Gold).

Moreover, on virtual money systems while they still exist the appropriate MCC codes must be applied at this moment on submerchants.

All systems that are working like claming that for example several sites of different clients are in fact theirs or that they sell tickets for access or that their clients are their providers and they are distributors have one drawback - as long as they publicly (via website) get their clients, it's against the rules.

2. VISA/MC does not want to know each merchant. Thats not entirely correct. Why should they want to know? They are a membership type of organisation for a good reason. :D Unprofitable by the way , as far as the russian sites says (all money invested into further development). I dont think anyone being ok in the head will ever want to have a beautifull chance of looking through and making due diligence on 100 000 porn paysites. :D

They just want each acquiring bank to know each of their merchants. That's one of the things they get payed for. "Know Your client" and stuff...
:D

The exception is IPSP with FDMS exactly because VISA didnt like the way FDMS used to know each of their clients.
:D



Last edited by RedEye at Dec 8 2003, 06:31 AM

[Rolo]

The ticketmaster type of registration if I am not mistaken is bs, just the same as "third party billing" in relation to VISA rules.

I could forsee more complex solutions, then just doing the same as 3rd party billers do today, and then call it "ticketmaster". You are right about it not being a good solution, but if/when 3rd party processors will be pushed, then this will be the next logic step, if they were to try and survive.

Why should they want to know?
Because of stories like this:

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-244881.html

Yes, I´m sure that the VISA/MC board members do not sit around surfing adult sites (well some of them might in their own private time), but acquiring banks do need a place to share information...

[Dianna Vesta]

Originally posted by KRL@Dec 6 2003, 01:06 AM
The only thing guaranteed in business is change.

Predictions are predictions, nothing more, nothing less.

No one can say for sure what the future holds except its most always filled with something new and different.

Stay light, flexible and prepared to change and adapt on a moments notice and you'll be able to dance.
that IS my mantra and the wisest of words.

[Hooper]

redeye, i believe cardservice now has wells fargo as an acquiring bank as well. although it may only be for their nonadult customers.

[homegrownmof]

Originally posted by RedEye@Dec 8 2003, 09:27 AM
1. The ticketmaster type of registration if I am not mistaken is bs, just the same as "third party billing" in relation to VISA rules.

The point is very clear - You can not aggregate transactions which belong to different clients into one merchant account.




Is this a VISA USA rule or VISA Int'l too?


RedEye, have you heard of a company called TranSecure?

[RedEye]

Originally posted by homegrownmof+Dec 8 2003, 11:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (homegrownmof @ Dec 8 2003, 11:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--RedEye@Dec 8 2003, 09:27 AM
1. The ticketmaster type of registration if I am not mistaken is bs, just the same as "third party billing" in relation to VISA rules.

The point is very clear - You can not aggregate transactions which belong to different clients into one merchant account.




Is this a VISA USA rule or VISA Int'l too?


RedEye, have you heard of a company called TranSecure?[/b][/quote]
1. There is a constant mislead here according to forums as I understand it. You probably meant VISA USA and VISA EU.

Because I beleive VISA USA just as VISA EU are all just parts of an association called Visa International Service Association headquartered in London.

Check out yourself, lost 2 minutes to find anything on topic on the USA site:
http://usa.visa.com/personal/legal/?it=ft_...personal/legal/ (http://usa.visa.com/personal/legal/?it=ft_/personal/legal/)

Visa Int rules apply to all regional VISAs beleive it or not. Quite a shock ain't it?
There are no 2 Visas.
There are 6 regions though (USA, EU, CEMEA and so on, I dont remember the rest of them).

Eeach region has it's own association of bankers members of VISA who represent the region and combined are 21 000 of VISA members in the world.

The rules are confidential and are open only to the members of VISA which are issuing and acquiring banks.

The merchant receives only the rules of the bank he uses which are based on the rules of VISA/MC and does not have any direct relationship with VISA.

Are the rules the same in between regions between acquirers and VISA? Most probably some are and some are not. My guess is that all e-commerce rules are the same because the real region is the same (internet). In one region the rules MUST be the same otherwise there is a constant danger of the same story which happened in USA when VISA was sued for millions of USD by Keymart or Walmart.

Therefore if a certain ipsp claims that "ticket system" is OK according to the VisaInt rules we have to assume that their acquing banks contract allows this kind of operation and their bank has different rules than US banks do and have no way to check or say otherwise. However if in the same region the rest of acquirers present another version of the rules You can guess it all Yourself.

Speaking about the rules themselves, there are no rules I ever saw prohibiting "third party billing" or "ticket billing systems" or "virtual money" or "supplier - distributor system",
the rule I saw was pretty clear: it is strictly forbidden to run transactions on behalf of other merchants through Your merchant account. Another thing I saw is that the rule along with cross boarding acquring prohibition rule (hello Kimmy! :D) is applied world wide.

It doesnt matter how You name it. If You run transactions for third parties through an aggregate merchant account call it whatever You wish - it is forbidden.
Nobody will forbid You making an online store of tickets to the local theaters or cinemas. No one will forbid You to lease Your billing software (if it's authorised by a real PSP of the bank) to separate merchants, no one will forbid You to make a website for selling programs developed by independent programmers, but if You build a commercial system based on the accepting card payments from other merchants through Your merchant account, whatever name You give it - it is forbidden.

Sometimes the rules are really different as it seems. For example I doubt that in USA any acquirer has it's own chargeback ratio with rules applied to it. I beleive it's strictly on per merchant case.

When in Russia the acquirer itself seems to have it's own chargeback allowed ratios and is itself at risk if it's clients go over thresholds.

2. Never heard about TranSecure.

[homegrownmof]

Thanks for the response RedEye. Definitely one of the more informative threads out there.

What about this scenario:

You say "it is forbidden to run transactions for a third party through an aggregate merchant account".

What if company A loses its merchant accounts, it goes to company B and says "hey, run my transactions and I'll make a side deal to give you a small percentage on the back end".

Thus it looks like the site(s) of Company A are now under the "ownership" of company B. Yet they are really just under the "processing umbrella" of company B.

I guess neither Visa nor the acquiring banks can really police the "aggregating of 3rd party transactions".even if they track the ownership of each individual url.

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Dec 7 2003, 08:57 PM
Wasn't KimmyKim supposed to come in here and pick all of this to pieces?

:agrin:
I mean to comment on it, but its alot of stuff to read and I've been superbusy all weekend and playing catchup today. Soon tho.

[Driven]

Originally posted by RedEye+Dec 6 2003, 09:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RedEye @ Dec 6 2003, 09:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Rolo@Dec 6 2003, 09:38 AM
Good posts RedEye

One thing we need to remember when talking about processing is that "EVERYONE is here for the money" - only politicians can fuck with that simple rule.

VISA/MC has no real problem with adult - only times they get mad are:

- when it costs them money
- when their brand is getting bad publicity

VISA/MC do not like 3rd party billers, because it can cost them money, and because they have no control over their brands.

Recurring billing will not go away from the adult industry as long as VISA/MC makes money on it. VISA/MC will (and have) changed "the who and how" behind recurring billing, and it will lead to less people being in the business.
Let me explain.

The processing in the world slowly but seriously moves towards a new protocol of acquiring transactions. The protocol is called 3D Secure.

Basicly as I understand it it's the same as Verify By Visa with the exception that the password for internet purchases by customer is being kept by the customer's bank.

All banks are recommended to support it.

I'll explain.

For example Your bank is Barclays Bank and You have a credit card of that bank. Now Barclays is supposed to contact You and offer You to input a special password for internet purchases on their website. The password is being kept only at their site.

At the time You attempt a purchase in the system which is connected through 3D Secure You will be required to enter the password and it will be matched directly with Your bank.

Therefore it is very difficult to fraud with this protocol because basicly in the majority of cases one would need to hack banks websites to get passwords.

Then the so-called "liability shift" occures. If later You attempt to make a chargeback more than half attempts will be declined and the merchant and the acquirer, and the PSP of course, are no longer liable for chargebacks. To be exact if You say "It was not me" the bank will no longer approve the chargeback.

The most interesting thing is what happens if Your bank does not support 3D Secure but the transaction went through that protocol. I.E. If the PSP has 3D Secure but Your bank doesnt the PSP will still make the transaction the old way but the shift occures anyway and the merchant if he is connected through such PSP is not liable for chargebacks. Why? Because generally it costs 20-30K $ and a couple of monthes for a bank to install 3D Secure and everyone was supposed to do it a year ago, so technically they are reliable for not supporting it.

However, just as with Verify by Visa these protocols seem not to support recurring charges at this time , at least not from the side of processor or PSP. The acquirer MIGHT have a difficult possibility to run recurring payments with 3D Secure but as of yet it's a rumour.

Although 3D Secure is quite new, so not too much is known about it.[/b][/quote]
Redeye, great posts mate, except your last statement about how it makes it very difficult to fraud with credit cards using 3dsecure.

Can't this still be done : And if the answer is "yes" then chargebacks will still be done as usual.

1. I build a fake join page on my site that has all the same info as 3dsecure and looks and acts to the user as if it was a normal page, it pops up the 3dsecure page info and all the rest and requests the user to input his 3dsecure "password". All that data is then sent to a relay via form and then to my email address.

So if this is possible as it surely is right now what is 3dsecure really going to change?

Thanks a lot for all the info Redeye thats great stuff man



Last edited by Driven at Dec 8 2003, 09:49 PM

[Driven]

Just reread my post, sorry didn't mean to say that your post was wrong or bad, but it came out that way oops :)

Just interested as i've never seen 3dsecure and because of the ability to build fake websites to look just like any normal legit website I thought it would be super easy to keep stealing credit cards and because cards are easily stolen along with passwords it wouldn't allow chargebacks to be denied.

Wow fantastic reading i'm glued to this stuff and have read almost every word.

[Dravyk]

Speaking of ways around things, it has been noticed by a few that VbV can be derailled by popup blocking software.

So here's a potential customer using VbV and they can't use it. Worse, because Visa has them listed as doing VbV, it supposedly forces them to have to use it, that is, the consumer cannot to side step it (from what I've heard) and are prevented from doing a normal CC join.

Now IF that is true, huge increase in lost sales. If that is true and if 3DSecure uses the same system, not good. If it instead shuffles them around elsewhere, and/or allows the surfer to use a normal join (should the window not pop up, good). But again from what I've heard it seems VISA never gave a thought to something as simple as a popup blocker or a surfer having JS turned off.

I really do hope they are not that dumb. But it wouldn't shock me if they were either.

Anyone have any info on this?



Last edited by Dravyk at Dec 9 2003, 01:42 AM

[Driven]

I was looking into opening a Merchant account in the USA for processing adult only.

I'm a little confused with all this, your mentioning that a lot of banks kicked merchant accounts out recently , all bar 1 US bank is accepting adult merchant accounts?

I currently use Epoch, should we open our own US merchant account to cut out the chance of Epoch and the other IPSP's going out of business? Or are adult processing merchants going to be a target as well

Our chargeback ratio is currently 0.08% as we sell a quality product and never do trials.

Thanks again

Oh btw, nice to find a board that talks business for once, glad to be a new member of Oprano :)

Matt

[RedEye]

Originally posted by homegrownmof@Dec 8 2003, 02:59 PM
Thanks for the response RedEye. Definitely one of the more informative threads out there.

What about this scenario:

You say "it is forbidden to run transactions for a third party through an aggregate merchant account".

What if company A loses its merchant accounts, it goes to company B and says "hey, run my transactions and I'll make a side deal to give you a small percentage on the back end".

Thus it looks like the site(s) of Company A are now under the "ownership" of company B. Yet they are really just under the "processing umbrella" of company B.

I guess neither Visa nor the acquiring banks can really police the "aggregating of 3rd party transactions".even if they track the ownership of each individual url.
1. About listing Your sites under somebody's else company.
Well in my understanding it works the following way:

If I meet with You in a nice bar then change WHOIS info of all my domains to Your company name and put Your company name under all of my sites I guess there is no way anyone can prohibit me using Your merchant account for my sites for a fee to You.

Because virtually there is no real way to prove that my sites do not belong to You for an acquiring bank or visa. Actually nobody can do it I think unless we both go under criminal investigations for something else where our private financial information will be disclosed.

The problem is that if I do this stuff to this extent legally they belong to You as well. :D

So what happens is that You may wake up in the morning, talk to Your wife for a minute or two and then suddenly have this bright idea that a new Porsche purchased on my money will look ouch! so nice next to Your house and viola...I cant do anything legally.

In case of Ibill for example, for the court it doesnt matter what Ibill violates.

If there is a contract between me and Ibill, Ibill has to perform that contract. Technically even if a third party billing company has been not payed by it's acquirer the clients are supposed to get payed by law anyway.

For example.
We (RED & Partners B.V.) are going to issue an official complaint in court against Ginix soon somewhere in USA :D , in 1 week I think from now, and our lawyers have been preparing it for the last couple of monthes. Ginix bank - Manufacturers Bank , has withhold their moneys so they didnt pay us, we are forced to go to court. Although we are not idiots who are trying to get our money from a company who didnt get it. Ginix used to pay once per month, I havent heard as of yet about a single acquirer with monthly payments , especially in relation to PSPs, however Ginix claims the bank froze the whole month turnover, which is bullshit of course.

We had a good experience before with these things , although of course You never know the future, but a year and a half ago we almost started a court case against EBS AG in Germany which has withhold 500 000 euros of several resellers including us for the usage of their dialers.

By the way the funnies stuff is that according to my info VISA shares similar rules and ideas towards acquirers. Acquirers have a very vague rule from VISA which can be understood in so many ways that they are liable to a certain extent for the payout for clients of a PSP.
Never heard that any othem gave a shit though which doesnt make me suprised at all in these dangerous times. :D However most of the acquiring banks prefer to payout directly even working with PSPs which is a bit of an extra danger to them cause it's simplier to send money to the PSP and thus the PSP will always be held by their balls and will definetely perform more control over it's clients.

Back to the subject about listing Your sites under somebodys else company. I beleive that overall this is the easiest and safest way to process for smaller sites. However I think that it must be done in a REAL partnership way - i.e. share much more things than just processing. Share employees, content, ideas and promotion. Really merge. Than it will work and I have a feeling a lot of smaller companies will do it this way sooner or later.



2. About 3D Secure. We havent worked with it yet, so I have no idea.
However I think that if You build a fake webshop collecting 3D passwords
it is not THAT dangerous to the overall situation. Fake shops now are not that dangerous.

Let me explain.
A very simple question - who's gonna buy?
:D

The majority of stolen cards appear from existing shops or billing companies as well which were hacked and their base stolen.

Just as with CVV/CVC the 3D secure pass is forbidden to keep anywhere by PSPs or websites - it passed straight away to bank and back.
And I expect the technology and the control of it is better than with CVVs which are being kept by most merchants in breach with the rules because otherwise it's impossible to run rebills on Your new merchant account when Your old one is fucked.
That's how hackers get them I think.

If You build a fake webshop to get a lot of cards You need a SHITLOAD of promotion. Otherwise You get no buyers. And if You do make a lot of promotion You get noticed fast.
That's why hackers prefer existing shops I beleive.

Although of course there will be chargebacks. It's just when everything possible has been done to protect the cardholder if he once pays that chargeback himself may be he finally will fucking care where he shows his card? Dont You think so?

[Soul_Rebel]

Hey Redeye, it's been a long time since we last talked..... hope you are doing fine. :)

Great info you posted here. My knowledge on this area is extremely limited and unfortunately very few persons are in position to provide info and answer such questions. I'm waiting to see KK's remarks as well, so I'll get a complete view on how these things work.

Do you use ibill EU or you have a registered co. in states now?

If I could make a wish for 2004, that would be the implementation of all these verified by visa and 3d systems. What we need is a CB free environment.

On the the promised/delivered issue I do understand it's crucial to make valid promo claims and not promise the sky, while delivering nothing.

I guess KK is talking about the Paris Hilton video. I was talking with the traffic manager of a big PPS sponsor that allows their affiliates (one of the many) to send such traffic while their members area doesnt have the video. When I asked him if they are afraid of the CBs I didn't get a complete answer, because he didn't have further info on this issue. I got informed though that they have more than a few affiliates doing from 75 to 300 joins/day all from Paris Hilton traffic. Few thousands more joins per day are tempting almost for everyone......

[RedEye]

Originally posted by Driven@Dec 8 2003, 10:44 PM
I was looking into opening a Merchant account in the USA for processing adult only.

I'm a little confused with all this, your mentioning that a lot of banks kicked merchant accounts out recently , all bar 1 US bank is accepting adult merchant accounts?

I currently use Epoch, should we open our own US merchant account to cut out the chance of Epoch and the other IPSP's going out of business? Or are adult processing merchants going to be a target as well

Our chargeback ratio is currently 0.08% as we sell a quality product and never do trials.

Thanks again

Oh btw, nice to find a board that talks business for once, glad to be a new member of Oprano :)

Matt
Its a difficult question.
The bank is FDMS (First Data Merchant Services). You can get there through www.cardserviceint.com

I will not comment on existing billing companies and besides we use Epoch at the moment ourselves.
:D

Spare me guys!!!
:D :D :D

[RedEye]

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel@Dec 8 2003, 10:47 PM
Hey Redeye, it's been a long time since we last talked..... hope you are doing fine. :)

Great info you posted here. My knowledge on this area is extremely limited and unfortunately very few persons are in position to provide info and answer such questions. I'm waiting to see KK's remarks as well, so I'll get a complete view on how these things work.

Do you use ibill EU or you have a registered co. in states now?

If I could make a wish for 2004, that would be the implementation of all these verified by visa and 3d systems. What we need is a CB free environment.

On the the promised/delivered issue I do understand it's crucial to make valid promo claims and not promise the sky, while delivering nothing.

I guess KK is talking about the Paris Hilton video. I was talking with the traffic manager of a big PPS sponsor that allows their affiliates (one of the many) to send such traffic while their members area doesnt have the video. When I asked him if they are afraid of the CBs I didn't get a complete answer, because he didn't have further info on this issue. I got informed though that they have more than a few affiliates doing from 75 to 300 joins/day all from Paris Hilton traffic. Few thousands more joins per day are tempting almost for everyone......
Hey Soul_Rebel!
Indeed long time no see! Glad to hear from Ya!
:D

Company in USA? IbillEU?
I am almost Dutch now!
:D :D :D

In the heart (and passport which is more important) I am still a Russian...
:D Which gives everyone creeps as usual.

We now got several companies and real office with Dutch guys in Netherlands and few more companies around (in USA of course too as well). We use several merchant accounts of our own at the moment for the old stuff and some of the new stuff I run and keep using a few billing companies as well.

[Soul_Rebel]

rapid changes :)

i always admire how you follow all changes and manage to stay on top of the things :)

[art]

Originally posted by Driven@Dec 9 2003, 12:49 AM
1. I build a fake join page on my site that has all the same info as 3dsecure and looks and acts to the user as if it was a normal page, it pops up the 3dsecure page info and all the rest and requests the user to input his 3dsecure "password". All that data is then sent to a relay via form and then to my email address.
In order to prevent this, VISA has what they call the "personal message":

From the Verified by VISA Q&A (http://usa.visa.com/personal/secure_with_visa/verified/2_q_and_a.html):

Q: What is a Personal Message?

A: Your Personal Message appears in your password screen when you make purchases. When the Verified by Visa window appears during the purchase process you should always check to see that your Personal Message appears correctly. This confirms that it's an authentic Verified by Visa window.

[art]

Originally posted by Dravyk@Dec 9 2003, 01:41 AM
Speaking of ways around things, it has been noticed by a few that VbV can be derailled by popup blocking software.
This issue is also mentioned in the Verified by VISA Q&A (http://usa.visa.com/personal/secure_with_visa/verified/2_q_and_a.html):

Q: I have a pop-up killer installed on my computer. Will Verified by Visa work for me?

A: Many participating online stores have implemented Verified by Visa so that your Verified by Visa password window will appear in a pop-up, or new browser window. If you have software installed on your computer that automatically closes browser windows that are not generated by you, then this may also prevent your Verified by Visa password window from appearing. You will need to disable the pop-up killer software when you make purchases at participating online stores.

-=-

So, it appears to me that if a popup killer breaks the process, the shop/billing company has created an implementation that is to blame because it relies on popups. In other words: you can implement it without using them..

[JR]

This has to be the most informative thread ever posted on a messageboard.

Thanks RedEye!

[Driven]

Originally posted by art+Dec 8 2003, 11:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (art @ Dec 8 2003, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Driven@Dec 9 2003, 12:49 AM
1. I build a fake join page on my site that has all the same info as 3dsecure and looks and acts to the user as if it was a normal page, it pops up the 3dsecure page info and all the rest and requests the user to input his 3dsecure "password". All that data is then sent to a relay via form and then to my email address.
In order to prevent this, VISA has what they call the "personal message":

From the Verified by VISA Q&A (http://usa.visa.com/personal/secure_with_visa/verified/2_q_and_a.html):

Q: What is a Personal Message?

A: Your Personal Message appears in your password screen when you make purchases. When the Verified by Visa window appears during the purchase process you should always check to see that your Personal Message appears correctly. This confirms that it's an authentic Verified by Visa window.[/b][/quote]
They can try to protect it 100% but it won't be 100% protected. Surfers are ignorant and not really upto date on that sort of thing and it would be super easy to steal all their info if you wanted. Maybe 20% might not give there info if it didn't have the personal message. I'm just thinking if visa was to say "ok you signed up via 3dsecure you can't chargeback" the system would have to be perfect but given the nature of the business they can't say that so other rules must apply and chargebacks will still remain.

If I owned a merchant account with one of these banks would they have the power to shut me down at any time they likes just cause they don't want to process for adult anymore?

[RedEye]

Originally posted by Driven+Dec 9 2003, 01:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Driven @ Dec 9 2003, 01:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -art@Dec 8 2003, 11:56 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Driven@Dec 9 2003, 12:49 AM
1. I build a fake join page on my site that has all the same info as 3dsecure and looks and acts to the user as if it was a normal page, it pops up the 3dsecure page info and all the rest and requests the user to input his 3dsecure "password". All that data is then sent to a relay via form and then to my email address.
In order to prevent this, VISA has what they call the "personal message":

From the Verified by VISA Q&A (http://usa.visa.com/personal/secure_with_visa/verified/2_q_and_a.html):

Q: What is a Personal Message?

A: Your Personal Message appears in your password screen when you make purchases. When the Verified by Visa window appears during the purchase process you should always check to see that your Personal Message appears correctly. This confirms that it's an authentic Verified by Visa window.
They can try to protect it 100% but it won't be 100% protected. Surfers are ignorant and not really upto date on that sort of thing and it would be super easy to steal all their info if you wanted. Maybe 20% might not give there info if it didn't have the personal message. I'm just thinking if visa was to say "ok you signed up via 3dsecure you can't chargeback" the system would have to be perfect but given the nature of the business they can't say that so other rules must apply and chargebacks will still remain.

If I owned a merchant account with one of these banks would they have the power to shut me down at any time they likes just cause they don't want to process for adult anymore?[/b][/quote]
That depends on the bank and the country the bank is located.
In most EU countries I doubt it.

In USA, Russia and other such places the bank does exactly what they want to do.

However since it's a bank they never do shit like that in 1 day early in the morning cause the mood is ugly and there were too many traffic jams.

I guess it will be valuable to hear comments from dudes who lost merchant accounts at Humbolt for example. And I mean specifically those who lost them not due to chargebacks but due to the bank policy to stay away from adult.

[RedEye]

P.S. It MUST depend on the agreement and the law in any given place as well.

Any merchant processing agreement has cancellation terms and the normal duration of the agreement. For example one year.

And if that was not enough any given agreement or it's term is always governed by the law in the area. So if the law says that an account in the bank can not be frozen without prior written notice in 2 month no matter what - than be it.

[art]

Originally posted by Driven@Dec 9 2003, 04:51 AM
I'm just thinking if visa was to say "ok you signed up via 3dsecure you can't chargeback" the system would have to be perfect but given the nature of the business they can't say that so other rules must apply and chargebacks will still remain.
This system only covers the authentication disputes (the "I didn't do it" chargebacks :-).
For VbV transactions, the merchant is NOT liable for such chargebacks.

So this shifts the problem to another party. I think to the bank? That would be a good motivation for the banks to educate their users and make sure they actually use the presented methods to verify they are not being conned.
I agree with you that users are usually ignorant, and this seems like an impossible task.

Maybe the end result will be that banks will simply motivate their cardholders to do another type of chargeback? Which will bring us back to where we are today.. ;-(

[Carrie]

Originally posted by art+Dec 9 2003, 06:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (art @ Dec 9 2003, 06:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Driven@Dec 9 2003, 04:51 AM
I'm just thinking if visa was to say "ok you signed up via 3dsecure you can't chargeback" the system would have to be perfect but given the nature of the business they can't say that so other rules must apply and chargebacks will still remain.
This system only covers the authentication disputes (the "I didn't do it" chargebacks :-).
For VbV transactions, the merchant is NOT liable for such chargebacks.

So this shifts the problem to another party. I think to the bank? That would be a good motivation for the banks to educate their users and make sure they actually use the presented methods to verify they are not being conned.
I agree with you that users are usually ignorant, and this seems like an impossible task.

Maybe the end result will be that banks will simply motivate their cardholders to do another type of chargeback? Which will bring us back to where we are today.. ;-([/b][/quote]
there's always the old faithful "product was not as described" lie.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by JR@Dec 9 2003, 04:11 AM
This has to be the most informative thread ever posted on a messageboard.

Thanks RedEye!
And, per Serge - he's a yoot! Amazing how he's can post useful information while the others are posting pictures of their pot, bongs and pipes. :P

[Carrie]

I've got two questions that I've been trying to get answered but the west coast folks aren't in their offices yet (arrghh@time zones)...

I've had my own merchant account for years, but it was originally set up as doing online *mainstream* transactions. Still high-risk I would think, as it was for services (web hosting). Would I be able to use this for adult transactions?

Second question - if I can't or don't use the merchant account, would it be possible to go through Visa registration as a sole proprietorship and then update that paperwork when our LLC papers come through? It seems there are backups in all of the state offices here and we have no idea when the papers will show up. It could be another 2 months and that just isn't going to work.

[Epoch]

Originally posted by Carrie@Dec 9 2003, 07:18 AM
I've got two questions that I've been trying to get answered but the west coast folks aren't in their offices yet (arrghh@time zones)...

I've had my own merchant account for years, but it was originally set up as doing online *mainstream* transactions. Still high-risk I would think, as it was for services (web hosting). Would I be able to use this for adult transactions?

Second question - if I can't or don't use the merchant account, would it be possible to go through Visa registration as a sole proprietorship and then update that paperwork when our LLC papers come through? It seems there are backups in all of the state offices here and we have no idea when the papers will show up. It could be another 2 months and that just isn't going to work.
Unfortunately you cannot run adult transactions through a merchant account which is not coded 5967 for Adult Video Text. If you do so and get caught you will lose your account and may face penalities....not a good idea.

As for question 2, this would be up to the underwriter of the merchant account.

Clay
EPOCH

[Carrie]

Thanks Clay! I had just tried calling and talking to Larry but he wasn't in yet. This helps :)

[TheEnforcer]

Damn interesting thread. :okthumb:

[Dravyk]

Apprecite the info, Art! Thanks.

[RedEye]

Originally posted by Epoch+Dec 9 2003, 07:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Epoch @ Dec 9 2003, 07:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Carrie@Dec 9 2003, 07:18 AM
I've got two questions that I've been trying to get answered but the west coast folks aren't in their offices yet (arrghh@time zones)...

I've had my own merchant account for years, but it was originally set up as doing online *mainstream* transactions. Still high-risk I would think, as it was for services (web hosting). Would I be able to use this for adult transactions?

Second question - if I can't or don't use the merchant account, would it be possible to go through Visa registration as a sole proprietorship and then update that paperwork when our LLC papers come through? It seems there are backups in all of the state offices here and we have no idea when the papers will show up. It could be another 2 months and that just isn't going to work.
Unfortunately you cannot run adult transactions through a merchant account which is not coded 5967 for Adult Video Text. If you do so and get caught you will lose your account and may face penalities....not a good idea.

As for question 2, this would be up to the underwriter of the merchant account.

Clay
EPOCH[/b][/quote]
Damn.
5967 - That's the number.
:D

[RedEye]

Originally posted by Carrie+Dec 9 2003, 06:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Carrie @ Dec 9 2003, 06:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -art@Dec 9 2003, 06:05 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Driven@Dec 9 2003, 04:51 AM
I'm just thinking if visa was to say "ok you signed up via 3dsecure you can't chargeback" the system would have to be perfect but given the nature of the business they can't say that so other rules must apply and chargebacks will still remain.
This system only covers the authentication disputes (the "I didn't do it" chargebacks :-).
For VbV transactions, the merchant is NOT liable for such chargebacks.

So this shifts the problem to another party. I think to the bank? That would be a good motivation for the banks to educate their users and make sure they actually use the presented methods to verify they are not being conned.
I agree with you that users are usually ignorant, and this seems like an impossible task.

Maybe the end result will be that banks will simply motivate their cardholders to do another type of chargeback? Which will bring us back to where we are today.. ;-(
there's always the old faithful "product was not as described" lie.[/b][/quote]
"pornography was not as described"
- such a good claim for a bank.

:D

With one of the acquirers I know of, Online Pharmacy processing, viagra dudes and penis enlargement dudes, are considered low risk (like retail e-commerce).

For some reason their customers dont call banks to complain that their dicks did not become any bigger or they dont get erection.
LOL!
:D :D :D

[Pornwolf]

This has been a fantastic thread. Cheers. :matey:

[NickUk]

:bwave: yes very interesting thread, I regged my nick, just to read it!

[nlphoto]

Originally posted by Peaches+Dec 9 2003, 08:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peaches @ Dec 9 2003, 08:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--JR@Dec 9 2003, 04:11 AM
This has to be the most informative thread ever posted on a messageboard.

Thanks RedEye!
And, per Serge - he's a yoot! Amazing how he's can post useful information while the others are posting pictures of their pot, bongs and pipes. :P[/b][/quote]
oh the irony of a board handle...

:nyanya:

[Peaches]

Originally posted by nlphoto+Dec 9 2003, 04:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nlphoto @ Dec 9 2003, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Peaches@Dec 9 2003, 08:13 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--JR@Dec 9 2003, 04:11 AM
This has to be the most informative thread ever posted on a messageboard.

Thanks RedEye!
And, per Serge - he's a yoot! Amazing how he's can post useful information while the others are posting pictures of their pot, bongs and pipes. :P
oh the irony of a board handle...

:nyanya:[/b][/quote]
Good point, LOL!!! :lol: Maybe he's really a good old Southern boy and was referring to red-eye gravy. B)

Smoking pot and drinking are things which I have zero problem with. Posting pictures of your pot, pipes, bongs and liquor bottles is a bit juvenile, IMHO. :awinky:

Then again, I post pictures of my dogs, so who am I to cast the first stone? :P

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by Peaches+Dec 9 2003, 12:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peaches @ Dec 9 2003, 12:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -nlphoto@Dec 9 2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by -Peaches@Dec 9 2003, 08:13 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--JR@Dec 9 2003, 04:11 AM
This has to be the most informative thread ever posted on a messageboard.

Thanks RedEye!
And, per Serge - he's a yoot! Amazing how he's can post useful information while the others are posting pictures of their pot, bongs and pipes. :P
oh the irony of a board handle...

:nyanya:
Good point, LOL!!! :lol: Maybe he's really a good old Southern boy and was referring to red-eye gravy. B)

Smoking pot and drinking are things which I have zero problem with. Posting pictures of your pot, pipes, bongs and liquor bottles is a bit juvenile, IMHO. :awinky:

Then again, I post pictures of my dogs, so who am I to cast the first stone? :P[/b][/quote]
hahaha

Negative Nancy is always around!

[Carrie]

Originally posted by Peaches@Dec 9 2003, 03:40 PM
Then again, I post pictures of my dogs, so who am I to cast the first stone? :P
Dogs aren't illegal, though.
And I'd love to see some recent pics :)

[sexpress]

interesting stuff, needs a bump :)

and yes, hi to all, I am new here :bwave:

[sperbonzo]

Nice posts Redeye. There are minor things here or there that you may not be fully informed on, or have gotten slightly wrong, but with the situation as complex and fluid as it is, NO ONE is in a position to know everything that is going on in each VISA region (and with individual acquirers for that matter). Within the various regions other processing solutions open and close on an everchanging basis...as regards to MCC 5967, and it's been REALLY nuts every since the ETA show last Sept. when the IPSP regs were rolled out by Martin Elliots people in Seattle.

Sometimes it gives me really bad headaches trying to keep up. I still work as a broker to assist merchants in finding accounts (mostly offshore...and BTW, there is ONE acquirer in the EU that is writing new IPSP business), but I have recently moved to DUOCASH....in looking at alternate billing systems, they were the ones that excited me the most. (someone actually started a thread about DUOCASH yesterday).

If you're going to be at internext in Jan, I would be interested in comparing some notes over a drink sometime....

BTW, Just to match what you say about the VISA rules. I've actually seen them.....leafed through them.....they look like a set of encyclopedia!

Cheers!

[RedEye]

Hey Mike!
Thanks for the comment. Indeed NO ONE knows it all - that's true.

Thats a negative side of membership association form of VISA/MC I beleive.

Unfortunately I will not be on Internext. Never been there yet and dont know when I'll get there.
:)
Although never know where I am next time.

[Netbilling]

Originally posted by Carrie@Dec 9 2003, 07:18 AM
I've got two questions that I've been trying to get answered but the west coast folks aren't in their offices yet (arrghh@time zones)...

I've had my own merchant account for years, but it was originally set up as doing online *mainstream* transactions. Still high-risk I would think, as it was for services (web hosting). Would I be able to use this for adult transactions?

Second question - if I can't or don't use the merchant account, would it be possible to go through Visa registration as a sole proprietorship and then update that paperwork when our LLC papers come through? It seems there are backups in all of the state offices here and we have no idea when the papers will show up. It could be another 2 months and that just isn't going to work.
Carrie,

You cannot run adult transactions through a mainstream merchant account. You will need to setup another account and pay the registration fees if domestic.

You can setup an account as a sole proprietor. however and LLC is typically quick to setup and is recommended.

Let me know if you are interested in obtaining an account. We can surely help.

Toll Free within the US: (888)357-8166
Outside the US: (661)252-2456

Thank you, Mitch Farber
Netbilling.com

[Netbilling]

Originally posted by Driven@Dec 8 2003, 10:44 PM
I was looking into opening a Merchant account in the USA for processing adult only.

I'm a little confused with all this, your mentioning that a lot of banks kicked merchant accounts out recently , all bar 1 US bank is accepting adult merchant accounts?

I currently use Epoch, should we open our own US merchant account to cut out the chance of Epoch and the other IPSP's going out of business? Or are adult processing merchants going to be a target as well

Our chargeback ratio is currently 0.08% as we sell a quality product and never do trials.

Thanks again

Oh btw, nice to find a board that talks business for once, glad to be a new member of Oprano :)

Matt
Hi Matt,

There are a few banks that we work with domestically that write adult accounts.

Let me know if you are interested.

-----------

Driven,

VbV can be used for initial transactions only, no recurring billings. The problem is with our internal testing is that more surfers are abandoning the payment page because of confusion using VbV. Untill the banks issue paswords to all cardholders and do not make them pre-register online for VBV, it will not be effective for widespread use IMO.

Mitch

[RedEye]

Originally posted by Netbilling+Dec 14 2003, 11:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Netbilling @ Dec 14 2003, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Driven@Dec 8 2003, 10:44 PM
I was looking into opening a Merchant account in the USA for processing adult only.

I'm a little confused with all this, your mentioning that a lot of banks kicked merchant accounts out recently , all bar 1 US bank is accepting adult merchant accounts?

I currently use Epoch, should we open our own US merchant account to cut out the chance of Epoch and the other IPSP's going out of business? Or are adult processing merchants going to be a target as well

Our chargeback ratio is currently 0.08% as we sell a quality product and never do trials.

Thanks again

Oh btw, nice to find a board that talks business for once, glad to be a new member of Oprano :)

Matt
Hi Matt,

There are a few banks that we work with domestically that write adult accounts.

Let me know if you are interested.

-----------

Driven,

VbV can be used for initial transactions only, no recurring billings. The problem is with our internal testing is that more surfers are abandoning the payment page because of confusion using VbV. Untill the banks issue paswords to all cardholders and do not make them pre-register online for VBV, it will not be effective for widespread use IMO.

Mitch[/b][/quote]
Mitch (if that's You), You say You got a few domestic banks doing adult merchant accounts in USA?
Do they all code it as adult?

[Netbilling]

Originally posted by RedEye+Dec 15 2003, 12:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RedEye @ Dec 15 2003, 12:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Netbilling@Dec 14 2003, 11:03 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Driven@Dec 8 2003, 10:44 PM
I was looking into opening a Merchant account in the USA for processing adult only.

I'm a little confused with all this, your mentioning that a lot of banks kicked merchant accounts out recently , all bar 1 US bank is accepting adult merchant accounts?

I currently use Epoch, should we open our own US merchant account to cut out the chance of Epoch and the other IPSP's going out of business? Or are adult processing merchants going to be a target as well

Our chargeback ratio is currently 0.08% as we sell a quality product and never do trials.

Thanks again

Oh btw, nice to find a board that talks business for once, glad to be a new member of Oprano :)

Matt
Hi Matt,

There are a few banks that we work with domestically that write adult accounts.

Let me know if you are interested.

-----------

Driven,

VbV can be used for initial transactions only, no recurring billings. The problem is with our internal testing is that more surfers are abandoning the payment page because of confusion using VbV. Untill the banks issue paswords to all cardholders and do not make them pre-register online for VBV, it will not be effective for widespread use IMO.

Mitch
Mitch (if that's You), You say You got a few domestic banks doing adult merchant accounts in USA?
Do they all code it as adult?[/b][/quote]
Hi,

Yes, they do code the accounts as adult 5967. Whay did you ask "Mitch (if that's You)"? Is there someone out there impersonating me?

:-)

Mitch

[RedEye]

Nope, sorry.
I just saw NETBILLING, and didnt notice "Mitch" signature.

I'm getting old...
:D :D :D

By the way, cool news about US banks.

[Carrie]

Has anyone else noticed that 5967 makes an "X" on a number pad?

(Strange coincedences.)

[Petr]

Originally posted by Carrie@Dec 15 2003, 11:12 PM
Has anyone else noticed that 5967 makes an "X" on a number pad?

(Strange coincedences.)
no, it does not

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by Petr+Dec 16 2003, 05:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Petr @ Dec 16 2003, 05:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Carrie@Dec 15 2003, 11:12 PM
Has anyone else noticed that 5967 makes an "X" on a number pad?

(Strange coincedences.)
no, it does not[/b][/quote]
a really funny looking X :)

5968 would have made an X, but 5967 is pushing it IMO

[Carrie]

Originally posted by Petr+Dec 16 2003, 05:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Petr @ Dec 16 2003, 05:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Carrie@Dec 15 2003, 11:12 PM
Has anyone else noticed that 5967 makes an "X" on a number pad?

(Strange coincedences.)
no, it does not[/b][/quote]
Really?
http://www.gotkinky.com/neatpics/keys.jpg

What alphabet do *you* use?

[Petr_A]

Carrie, see Slav's post

[Dravyk]

What? No "SHELL OIL" mention? LOL!



(... Wondering how many people get this one)

[sperbonzo]

Originally posted by Dravyk@Dec 16 2003, 09:32 AM
What? No "SHELL OIL" mention? LOL!



(... Wondering how many people get this one)
the only people that will get that will be the one's old enough to remember the calculators with the red LED read out. lol

[gonzo]

Originally posted by Dravyk@Dec 16 2003, 12:32 PM
What? No "SHELL OIL" mention? LOL!



(... Wondering how many people get this one)
Drav I bet you still got your old TI

[Dravyk]

Mike, yep! I am ancient. Apparently so are you. hehe

Gonzo, naw. I need the drawer space and it filled the drawer. :rolleyes:




Last edited by Dravyk at Dec 16 2003, 05:06 PM

[Dravyk]

71077345

Too bad it's not the right font. :blink:

[kath]

Originally posted by Dravyk@Dec 16 2003, 02:10 PM
71077345

Too bad it's not the right font. :blink:
Coming from Ohio we used to always do 0140 on our calculators... and of course say "go to..." and type in 7734.

Oh yeah... we were rebels - and had nothing better to do. :rolleyes:

[RedEye]

Someboy please explain!
:D

[Winetalk.com]

bump