The Facts on How Much $$ Surfers Pay Using Dialers

[Toolz]

There’s been a lot of negative and inaccurate information thrown out there with our current ad campaign running, one of the largest ever performed by a dialer so I thought in the first part of our educational series I’d touch on the costs a surfer sees when using a dialer for access to sites.

The dialer payment method has gotten a bad rap in the past by unscrupulous companies over-billing customers, automatically connecting them, and not disclosing pricing to the customers. However, in the current market these practices are all but outlawed by every entity billing via this method and those caught with their hand in the cookie jar are charged hefty fines. The cost to surfers is much more reasonable now, below you’ll find a chart of the top countries, countries not listed run anywhere from .30 to $2.00 for the surfer (the cost of an international call from their county)

Sweden SKR 15.7: $2.02 USD
Belgium EUR 1.12: $1.31 USD
Finland Fm 14.95: $2.95 USD
Germany EUR 1.85: $2.17 USD
Hong Kong HKD 10: $1.28 USD
Italy EUR 2: $2.35 USD
Luxembourg EUR 1: $1.17 USD
Netherlands EUR 0.68: $.79 USD
New Zealand NZD 2.99: $1.87 USD
Spain EUR 0.91: $1.07 USD
UK GBP 1.5: $2.53 USD

These are all based on current monetary conversion for 11/17/2003. Remember, there are two telco companies who stick their hands into the pot before any program or webmaster gets close to these numbers. In addition some calls run on land-line and some calls run on Satellite, some of the satellite calls charge as much as $2.00 for the uplink. Also each county as a per call limit, the UK is GBP 20: or around $34 maximum per call

In addition broadband and SMS options also provide for current and future revenue possibilities for international surfers. With the current pricing and payouts from dialer companies it’s quite feasible to earn $20-$40 per UK user and $10-$20 per user from other countries with virtually no credit card penetration. While these numbers may seem high for per minute access compared to buying a monthly credit card remember these are users who don’t have a credit card or are reluctant to pay with it and dialers are a very feasible option for them.

[BradShaw]

I feel better after reading that to know when I travel the world that my bill will not be too big!

[cherrylula]

Does the surfer have to download anything to use your dialer service? Curious...

Cause if so, I know lots of guys and surfers in general who think that porn related downloads are malicious spyware infected things, or a virus.

[Toolz]

Currently they do however we're working on an advanced solution that will cure this concern :)

[kath]

Unfortunately dialers mainly have this bad rap here in the US. There are other countries in Europe that prefer this method of billing. Although there still are a few idiots who ruin it for everyone else, for the most part from what I've seen since I started really focusing on global traffic is that there are a LOT of really honest dialer companies.

The things they are doing today in Europe with web call (broadband dialers), Premium SMS services, etc. are really exciting. I can't wait until this alternative solutions become more available and popular here in the US.

Good info Toolz! I think US webmasters need to become more aware of these alternative payment solutions. As I always say... the more options - the better! :okthumb:

[gonzo]

Originally posted by kath@Nov 17 2003, 02:53 PM
Unfortunately dialers mainly have this bad rap here in the US. There are other countries in Europe that prefer this method of billing. Although there still are a few idiots who ruin it for everyone else, for the most part from what I've seen since I started really focusing on global traffic is that there are a LOT of really honest dialer companies.

The things they are doing today in Europe with web call (broadband dialers), Premium SMS services, etc. are really exciting. I can't wait until this alternative solutions become more available and popular here in the US.

Good info Toolz! I think US webmasters need to become more aware of these alternative payment solutions. As I always say... the more options - the better! :okthumb:
Thats why I filter all my evil Chinese traffic thru Sex Money!

[kath]

Originally posted by gonzo@Nov 17 2003, 12:01 PM
Thats why I filter all my evil Chinese traffic thru Sex Money!
lol.... yeah, or you could take that workshop advice and just send it all to Yahoo.com. :rolleyes:

Again - WTF was that speaker thinking??? You know from your own experience Gonzo... foreign traffic is NOT crap traffic. We have some affiliates who are making a SURPRISINGLY large chunk of change each day with the program.

:bjump: :bdance: :bwave:

[TeenGodFather]

Originally posted by Toolz@Nov 17 2003, 10:51 AM
Finland Fm 14.95: $2.95 USD

Well.. finlands currency isn't FM.. it's Euro. So I hope you're not charging 14.95euros... :)

[Toolz]

Originally posted by TeenGodFather+Nov 17 2003, 12:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TeenGodFather @ Nov 17 2003, 12:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Toolz@Nov 17 2003, 10:51 AM
Finland Fm 14.95: $2.95 USD

Well.. finlands currency isn't FM.. it's Euro. So I hope you're not charging 14.95euros... :)[/b][/quote]
I see the Finland Markkaa is obsolete, not sure why the telco still uses it :)

[cj]

Was just about to start the procedure for setting up the sextracker dialer with geo-targetting on our paysites but I guess it would be silly not to look in front of my face huh!! even if you do ignore my icq's!

can you give me a brief run down of what's required to setup & the steps we need to take to implement this for a trial?

thanks

[Toolz]

CJ,

I don't have you on my icq, not ignoring you babe, 92440098 or better yet email me your number and I'll re-add you shawn@tooley.us

[cj]

emailed, icq'd and here it is for good measure ;-) 3422430

is it your dialler that silvercash have just started using on all of their foreign traffic? (its becoming really hard to surf sites from an australian ip!!!!!!! bloody diallers!!) its a lot cleaner than others i've used ... like it a lot

[Petr_A]

The problem with Premium SMS billing is that the telco gets 50-70% of the money. And that's simply too much.

[baddog]

Originally posted by TeenGodFather+Nov 17 2003, 12:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TeenGodFather @ Nov 17 2003, 12:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Toolz@Nov 17 2003, 10:51 AM
Finland Fm 14.95: $2.95 USD

Well.. finlands currency isn't FM.. it's Euro. So I hope you're not charging 14.95euros... :)[/b][/quote]
:lol:

[slavdogg]

i must say for the 5 months we've been using ADS dialer
we've done real well

even had billed calls from Antarctica :)

also here is a tip, teen dialer seems to do better than hardcore on hardcore traffic.

[cj]

Originally posted by Petr_A@Nov 17 2003, 08:42 PM
The problem with Premium SMS billing is that the telco gets 50-70% of the money. And that's simply too much.
they only take 50-70%?! wow, that means we get to keep 50-30%?! That's an improvement on today's standards!

- no 200% payouts to webmasters
- no 10% processing fee
- no chargebacks, potential loss of merchant account and overnight downfall of business
- less everyday fraud from foreign cc's protecting your existing merchant facilities
- plus its a solution for the millions without cc access therefore opens up a new market

I don't really see the % as that big of a downfall even though it is definately on the high side

The bottom line isn't always the very bottom line ...

SMS everything is the way of the future so we'd better get used to it! jump on board or ... drown!

[gonzo]

Originally posted by cj@Nov 17 2003, 09:25 PM

SMS everything is the way of the future so we'd better get used to it! jump on board or ... drown!
Id say thats a MAJOR pearl!

[BradShaw]

Is there a dialer where I can see the toolz live webcam?

Billy wanted me to ask.

[Petr_A]

Originally posted by cj+Nov 17 2003, 06:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cj @ Nov 17 2003, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Petr_A@Nov 17 2003, 08:42 PM
The problem with Premium SMS billing is that the telco gets 50-70% of the money. And that's simply too much.
they only take 50-70%?! wow, that means we get to keep 50-30%?! That's an improvement on today's standards!

- no 200% payouts to webmasters
- no 10% processing fee
- no chargebacks, potential loss of merchant account and overnight downfall of business
- less everyday fraud from foreign cc's protecting your existing merchant facilities
- plus its a solution for the millions without cc access therefore opens up a new market

I don't really see the % as that big of a downfall even though it is definately on the high side

The bottom line isn't always the very bottom line ...

SMS everything is the way of the future so we'd better get used to it! jump on board or ... drown![/b][/quote]
cj,

1. Premium SMS is available only in a couple of countries.
2. The max price you can put on it is usually $2.
3. Beside the 50-70% commission there are some other expenses like flat monthly fee (usually $1k+).
4. Since there is no age verification, you cannot sell hardcore porn (in some countries you cannot sell adult content at all).
5. Telcos can cancel a contract with you pretty much any time they want.
6. In some cases you need to have a contract with each cellphone provider in the country. You can't charge TMobile users if you only have a contract with Sprint, for example...

SMS billing is not the way of the future. Especially not in the USA/Canada.

[gonzo]

Originally posted by Petr_A@Nov 17 2003, 11:39 PM

SMS billing is not the way of the future. Especially not in the USA/Canada.
Maybe not SMS specifically but she is right ...the winds of change are PRIME for an alternative billing solution and everybody better get used to it.
Speaking of which...wheres KK with and Epassport update?

Thats a project Id like to see work well....Im kinda in the dark about it as of recent.

[Petr_A]

We don't need an alternative billing. We need a solid way of credit card payment authorization. In age of online billing and electronic payments a handwritten signature is simply too obsolete.

[gonzo]

Originally posted by Petr_A@Nov 18 2003, 12:13 AM
We don't need an alternative billing. We need a solid way of credit card payment authorization. In age of online billing and electronic payments a handwritten signature is simply too obsolete.
I disagree. We need alternative billing for those people that wont use a dialer and dont have a credit card. The "pie" of people who have credit cards and will use them to buy porn is all consumed. We need to expand that pie of buyers ...and an alternative billing mechanism like prepaid is something that would accomplish this.

[Carrie]

Gonzo, thinking that the pie of credit-card-using porn surfers is all consumed is just fatalistic and not true.
Millions of credit card using surfers are joining the net everyday, and a bunch of them are looking for porn.
Millions more are becoming more comfortable with the idea of using their credit card online and will soon try it out after having been online for a year or more already.

There are always more surfers looking to get a glimpse of "the good stuff"... the question is, will we have a payment solution ready for them?

[Petr_A]

Originally posted by gonzo+Nov 17 2003, 09:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gonzo @ Nov 17 2003, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Petr_A@Nov 18 2003, 12:13 AM
We don't need an alternative billing. We need a solid way of credit card payment authorization. In age of online billing and electronic payments a handwritten signature is simply too obsolete.
I disagree. We need alternative billing for those people that wont use a dialer and dont have a credit card. The "pie" of people who have credit cards and will use them to buy porn is all consumed. We need to expand that pie of buyers ...and an alternative billing mechanism like prepaid is something that would accomplish this.[/b][/quote]
The pie is expanding already as more and more new credit cards are issued to people. Take my country for example. In the Czech Republic a credit card was something unthinkable like ten years ago. Everyone used to pay cash. Now there are millions of credit cards among Czech consumers... And the number is still growing.

[Petr_A]

BTW Toolz, sorry for the threadjacking

[cj]

I agree with all the points on your list - however, i could make one twice as long for 'whats wrong with cc processing' ...

SMS billing is not the way of the future. Especially not in the USA/Canada.

I'm going to share a little secret with you ....

USA & Canada are not the only 2 countries in the world :awinky:
You can take all USA & Canada traffic and the credit card issues and I wish you well my friend. I'll be playing over here in SMS land - lets compare notes in a year ;-)

Its not exactly news to American's i'm sure that the one area you are seriously behind is cell phone technology. I got my first 'Internet' multimedia cell phone the other day - it has the ability to send and receive pictures, movies & audio clips plus I can receive and send email from the phone ... I got it free on a 2 year $60 per month contract (with $60 of calls included) ... my 21 year old sister has one, my boyfriend has one as do my employees ...

Right now the formats only half work with each different phone/network and you have to download software to do some things etc - but the technology is AMAZING & this is only the first wave.

If you keep your mind stuck in the place where 'internet porn = paysites with cc $29.95 per month charge' then how can you expect anything to change or improve?

We DO need billing alternatives - BRING EM ON BABY - being this heavily dependant on visa and mastercard is what got us in this mess in the first place.

[Toolz]

Petr,

No prob, we offer SMS but only through the UK right now and the payout to webmasters is .50 on it. Not being pushed heavily because of that obviously.

I agree with all your points on it, could be viable but with the telcos taking a large portion it's not really all that great, you guys think credit card processing is bad at 10% try dealing with the telco's and their 50% rates lol.

[gonzo]

Goddamn Hellpuppy!

We spent that 100K last year reseaching prepaid and online buying habits in the wrong damn place!!

Why didnt you suggest coming to Oprano and giving it to Carrie?

CJ they are programming my Tmobile gear like you described as we speak.
The cell phone technology aint that far behind. The billing system is!

If I could bill it Id funnel all that Ozzie traffic to SMS for payment on sites.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by gonzo@Nov 18 2003, 01:02 AM
Goddamn Hellpuppy!

We spent that 100K last year reseaching prepaid and online buying habits in the wrong damn place!!

Why didnt you suggest coming to Oprano and giving it to Carrie?

CJ they are programming my Tmobile gear like you described as we speak.
The cell phone technology aint that far behind. The billing system is!

If I could bill it Id funnel all that Ozzie traffic to SMS for payment on sites.
Gonzo tell me something.
If your $100k of research told you that the cc pie is consumed, why did I get cc sales today?

Evidently *someone* is out there buying with cc, and if they're buying, then the pie is not consumed.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by cj@Nov 18 2003, 12:37 AM
I'm going to share a little secret with you ....

USA & Canada are not the only 2 countries in the world :awinky:

Bloody liberal ... :)

[Hell Puppy]

Originally posted by gonzo@Nov 18 2003, 01:02 AM
Goddamn Hellpuppy!

We spent that 100K last year reseaching prepaid and online buying habits in the wrong damn place!!

Why didnt you suggest coming to Oprano and giving it to Carrie?


Oh man, this is a huge can of worms to get into this late. Already past my bedtime, but I cant resist....

When you work IN porn behind the scenes your perspectives of how the "normals" feel and perceive things gets skewed. The pie is still growing as we are still gaining Internet newbies, but the growth has flattened considerably. More and more our business is coming from a pool of surfers that is getting re-used over and over.

The big untapped oil well is with the surfers who cant or wont use a credit card online. I'm not going to give a free marketing lesson here, but if you use your head, you'll realize that there's a huge percentage of people out there who wont pay for ANYTHING and think the internet and everything on it should be free. There's an additional percentage who buy online but absolutely will not pay for porn. There are users out there who are paranoid to give up their credit card number online, there are others who just dont want to risk having their name in a porn site's database or their wife finding the bill.

Bottom line, many people aren't comfortable buying porn. Add another layer of anonymity and security and you grow the pie much more than what you can do with the current cards.

CJ they are programming my Tmobile gear like you described as we speak.
The cell phone technology aint that far behind. The billing system is!

And I have all the features she mentions on my phone, and I've had it for over a year. My phone will roam just fine around the world as well. However, she's exactly right, in general the U.S. is way behind in wireless phone infrastructure and technology. Some of the big carriers here including AT&T and Cingular are only in recent months beginning to offer GSM based phones.

The U.S. is also different culturally from the rest of the world in terms of usage of our phones particularly with the teens. A u.s. teen typically has their own room, their own computer and broadband. If they wanna IM with their friends, why the hell would they do it via cellphone?

In Europe, different story, many do not have those type luxuries, and they also spend a lot of time on mass transit or waiting on mass transit. Wanna chat with your friends via IM as teens are prone to do? They do it with their phones. They're also more likely to use the phones for online games, etc.

If I could bill it Id funnel all that Ozzie traffic to SMS for payment on sites

SMS is already used in a lot of micropayment type situations in the rest of the world for sure. The U.S. is more finicky. I dont think it'll fly here in it's current form, but it could be made to work if instead of strictly being a phone company transaction it could be used as a secured way to transmit a configurable payment method to any payer....similar to the way online billpayment with pay anyone technology works.


Visa and MC are holding a lot of this back, they like things the way they are right now. There have been many technologies such as smartcards with modem readers and keyboards with credit swipe mechanisms which Visa and MC have killed by intentionally letting them die on the vine.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally posted by Carrie@Nov 18 2003, 01:12 AM

Gonzo tell me something.
If your $100k of research told you that the cc pie is consumed, why did I get cc sales today?

Evidently *someone* is out there buying with cc, and if they're buying, then the pie is not consumed.
The pie analogy aint working.

The real quesiton here is was this the first time that CC user had bought porn online?

Unless it is, the pie didn't grow for you today.

If you get 100 sales today and more than 10 of them are first time buyers, I'm impressed. 3 years ago those numbers would've been almost inverted....the pie was doubling in size regularly. Now we just pad the crust a bit here and there.

[Carrie]

Here's an email I got this weekend from a friend who just found out I'm over on the adult side of things (changed her hubby's name of course):
"(Husband) and I have perused the porno sites a bit but didn't really
find what we were looking for. (Husband) likes to watch movies occasionally but I never knew which sites to trust. You hear horror stories about people's credit cards being charged for things they didn't buy. Is there is a good site where you can watch adult movies online at a reasonable price?"

I'm still trying to figure out which one to send her to.
But anyhoo... there are plenty of people out there like her. We've just gotta reach them.

Boy Squirt would go nuts reading that email, it would launch him into an entirely new "thanks to the veterans" rant. :)

[gonzo]

Originally posted by Carrie@Nov 18 2003, 07:32 AM
Here's an email I got this weekend from a friend who just found out I'm over on the adult side of things (changed her hubby's name of course):
"(Husband) and I have perused the porno sites a bit but didn't really
find what we were looking for. (Husband) likes to watch movies occasionally but I never knew which sites to trust. You hear horror stories about people's credit cards being charged for things they didn't buy. Is there is a good site where you can watch adult movies online at a reasonable price?"

I'm still trying to figure out which one to send her to.
But anyhoo... there are plenty of people out there like her. We've just gotta reach them.

Boy Squirt would go nuts reading that email, it would launch him into an entirely new "thanks to the veterans" rant. :)
xxxblue.com hahaha

[gonzo]

6 years later....interesting to see how this all played out.

Most countries and the FTC have stomped out Dialers.
There is still no alternative billing platform in place.

And someone has ate all the pie.