Jessica Lynch

[dirtyone]

I just finished reading a thread on another board about her and the details that were released today from her book. I thought about posting a reply but the thought of being torn down by a bunch of idiots really didn't appeal to me tonight so I thought I would come here and see what folks thought.

The main thing that I disagree with in almost every post I have seen about her today is when people say that she is not a hero. Everyone who has been over there, agree or disagree with what has happened, is a hero and deserves to be treated as such just for the simple fact that they are serving their country.

With that said, since other soldiers are not receiving the same publicity for much more heroic actions, should Lynch have turned down the money that has been offered to her by the likes of CBS and her publisher? Would you?

She will spend the rest of her life suffering the emotional and physical damage caused by what happened over there (so will many others) doesn’t she deserve anything she can get?

[Peaches]

Originally posted by dirtyone@Nov 6 2003, 08:56 PM
I just finished reading a thread on another board about her and the details that were released today from her book. I thought about posting a reply but the thought of being torn down by a bunch of idiots really didn't appeal to me tonight so I thought I would come here and see what folks thought.

The main thing that I disagree with in almost every post I have seen about her today is when people say that she is not a hero. Everyone who has been over there, agree or disagree with what has happened, is a hero and deserves to be treated as such just for the simple fact that they are serving their country.

With that said, since other soldiers are not receiving the same publicity for much more heroic actions, should Lynch have turned down the money that has been offered to her by the likes of CBS and her publisher? Would you?

She will spend the rest of her life suffering the emotional and physical damage caused by what happened over there (so will many others) doesn’t she deserve anything she can get?
I don't think she was any more a hero than anyone else who fights for their country. Whether or not you go to war, are injured, are a POW - you STILL put yourself up for that to happen if you enlisted.

As far as taking the money - it's no different than anything else. If someone's going to give you money to do something legal, then take it. The story doesn't personally interest me so I'll not read the book, watch the movie or watch the interviews. But someone gave her $$$, she'd be a fool not to take it.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by dirtyone@Nov 6 2003, 07:56 PM


The main thing that I disagree with in almost every post I have seen about her today is when people say that she is not a hero. Everyone who has been over there, agree or disagree with what has happened, is a hero and deserves to be treated as such just for the simple fact that they are serving their country.




I agree with this statement. She was over there, serving her country on the battlefield, she is a hero. Everyone who fought over there is a hero.
She has suffered a lot.

There are many stories of many brave people, that hopefuly will all be told....

[[Labret]]

As much a hero as the Dominican janitor that went down with the twin towers.

Were any of you unfortunate enough to listen to her read her statement upon return to the states? That girl is dumb as a fucking stump.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by [Labret]@Nov 6 2003, 08:11 PM
As much a hero as the Dominican janitor that went down with the twin towers.

Were any of you unfortunate enough to listen to her read her statement upon return to the states? That girl is dumb as a fucking stump.


She is dumb. She is also a redneck from a poor family in West Virginia. However, she DID server her country, she did get caught in combat, was wounded, and was a POW. She is a hero, even if she think 2 + 2 = 5

Many of the bravest troops the US has had, including many CMOH winners have been rural people who are not genuises. From the Revolutionary War, to Operation Iraqi Freedom, its all been the same.

[[Labret]]

For the first time in history I will back down and concede.

You are correct.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by [Labret]@Nov 6 2003, 08:17 PM
For the first time in history I will back down and concede.

You are correct.


Holy Shit....

I think I am going to retire from the board now! :-)

[Fletch XXX]

:ph34r:

[dirtyone]

Originally posted by [Labret]@Nov 6 2003, 05:17 PM
For the first time in history I will back down and concede.

You are correct.
I'm in shock and awe....




If the Dominican janitor had survived by some stroke of dumb luck and CBS offered him a million dollars to tell his story should he turn it down?

Someone said, "She is a hero, but she should not be allowed to sell her story for $1 million +. The $ should go to a fund of killed/injured soldiers."

She will spend the rest of her life coping with the event's that took place over there both in the physical and psychological sense.

She is her own best charity in my opinion.

[eatapeach]

the idiots that would have torn you down on the other board are right.

[Fletch XXX]

since im most likely one of those idiots you refer to feared tearing you down.

I wont, I will simply post the url's I dug up today looking around.

Enjoy.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/211...2003-68544.html (http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/211-04072003-68544.html)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gu...gulf/war/5.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/war/5.html)
http://inlandantiempire.org/archive/000216.php
http://www.china.org.cn/e-white/20020313/6.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/bosnia/...r96/nbos181.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/bosnia/mar96/nbos181.htm)
http://www.sexcriminals.com/news/15232/
http://www.tni.org/asem/seoul/docs/008eiko.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...3-2003Nov6.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8953-2003Nov6.html)
http://www.iowastatedaily.com/vnews/displa...0/3f5e87c8e6ca8 (http://www.iowastatedaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/09/10/3f5e87c8e6ca8)
http://www.ksat.com/news/2455232/detail.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/decoster/decoster87.html

my favorite: http://realpolitik.us/archives/001325.php
written by Mike Reagan, Ronalds son.

a pretty good collection of info on american soldiers raping kids and jessica lynch.



Last edited by Fletch XXX at Nov 6 2003, 05:40 PM

[dirtyone]

Originally posted by eatapeach@Nov 6 2003, 05:36 PM
the idiots that would have torn you down on the other board are right.
I was speaking more along the lines of this idiot...

"Well, she was the unit hoe -- so it was prob just another day for her."

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Nov 6 2003, 08:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Nov 6 2003, 08:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--dirtyone@Nov 6 2003, 07:56 PM


The main thing that I disagree with in almost every post I have seen about her today is when people say that she is not a hero. Everyone who has been over there, agree or disagree with what has happened, is a hero and deserves to be treated as such just for the simple fact that they are serving their country.




I agree with this statement. She was over there, serving her country on the battlefield, she is a hero. Everyone who fought over there is a hero.
She has suffered a lot.

There are many stories of many brave people, that hopefuly will all be told....[/b][/quote]
Anybody who thinks she is not entitled to profit from her ordeal is a moron. It's like arguing that any other historical figure - and she has been made a historical figure in a sense - doesn't have the right to produce memoirs.

Is she a hero? Hell, I dunno. She's a reasonably cute, white, supply clerk who survived a terrible situation. I can see why there are folks who want to make her a hero - she is certainly marketable.

ln the meantime, based on news we got last night, it would be greatly appreciated if one of the rally-round-the-flag boys who are willing to commit all kinds of American lives (as long as it isn't their own) to make Iraq safe for the benefit of world peace (or at least the bottom line of Haliburton) would get off their fat asses and fill in for a Marine Captain who, at least in the opinion of this household, has already done double duty (Afghanistan and Iraq) in the hero department. :headwall:

[dirtyone]

And no Fletch I wasn't referring to you. While I may not always agree with you, you at least had something interesting and thought provoking to say.



Last edited by dirtyone at Nov 6 2003, 05:51 PM

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by dirtyone@Nov 6 2003, 05:50 PM
And no Fletch I wasn't referring to you. While I may not always agree with you, you at least had something interesting and thought provoking to say.
ah well then cool, but im done with this fight hehehe.

read, absorb, and form an opinion.

[Fletch XXX]

try to look at it from this womans view:

'For Mrs. Arlene Walters those unearned honors are a direct slap in the face for the mother of the soldier who actually did what Lynch was said to have done, and died doing it.

According to his fellow soldiers, her son, Sgt. Donald Walters was killed after mounting a lone stand against the Iraqis. Yet few, if any, of the Americans watching Private Lynch's homecoming have even heard her son's name. "The military tell us that everyone who was in her unit was a hero," Mrs. Walters said. "In fact they have singled out Jessica Lynch as the hero, and they are not giving the recognition to my son that he deserves.

"The fighter that they thought was Jessica Lynch was Donald," Mrs. Walters told Australia’s The Age. "When he was found he had two stab wounds in the abdomen, and he'd been shot once in the right leg and twice in the back. And he'd emptied his rounds of ammunition. Just like they said Jessica had done at first."'

id be a bit pissed too, wouldnt you?

http://realpolitik.us/archives/001325.php



Last edited by Fletch XXX at Nov 6 2003, 05:55 PM

[Mike AI]

Jessica Lynch is a hero - but she does not deserve a Bronze Star....

She is no Audie Murphey or anything.... but compaired to people like me who sit on their fat ass behind a keyboard, she is a hero.

To see real heros, you can read for days http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm

This is what happens when the media machine gets ahold of things - they build people up, and tear them down.

[dirtyone]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX@Nov 6 2003, 05:55 PM
try to look at it from this womans view:

'For Mrs. Arlene Walters those unearned honors are a direct slap in the face for the mother of the soldier who actually did what Lynch was said to have done, and died doing it.

According to his fellow soldiers, her son, Sgt. Donald Walters was killed after mounting a lone stand against the Iraqis. Yet few, if any, of the Americans watching Private Lynch's homecoming have even heard her son's name. "The military tell us that everyone who was in her unit was a hero," Mrs. Walters said. "In fact they have singled out Jessica Lynch as the hero, and they are not giving the recognition to my son that he deserves.

"The fighter that they thought was Jessica Lynch was Donald," Mrs. Walters told Australia’s The Age. "When he was found he had two stab wounds in the abdomen, and he'd been shot once in the right leg and twice in the back. And he'd emptied his rounds of ammunition. Just like they said Jessica had done at first."'

id be a bit pissed too, wouldnt you?

http://realpolitik.us/archives/001325.php
I agree with that woman 100% There are thousands of untold stories that will never be told just like that one. There are people that contributed far more and recieved less but does this make what has happened to Lynche wrong?

She was there, she was injured in the line of duty, and a POW. Her story as it was first told was not as it seemed but we can thank the media machine for blowing that one up for us but, is she wrong for what she has accepted considering her ordeal?

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by dirtyone@Nov 6 2003, 06:02 PM
She was there, she was injured in the line of duty, and a POW. Her story as it was first told was not as it seemed but we can thank the media machine for blowing that one up for us but, is she wrong for what she has accepted considering her ordeal?
there's no way I could deny that. Hell, I'm not there either.

But I do have family there. A 20 year old cousin from Mississippi.

My placement on this was never to demolish Lynch as a person, but the way they will market her to the 'Lifetime' crowd.

Women will eat this shit up and buy this book forever.

As I have said, what she has, and will go through, to me is not worth the book deal or 5 million.

Ill stay my ass in america and dodge bullets in LA before going to iraq.

nothing is worth what she had to go through, and its a shame that america fiends for such entertainment.

[LadyMischief]

I feel her entire situation was rather unfortunate. At least she is cute :)

[dirtyone]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX+Nov 6 2003, 06:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fletch XXX @ Nov 6 2003, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--dirtyone@Nov 6 2003, 06:02 PM
She was there, she was injured in the line of duty, and a POW. Her story as it was first told was not as it seemed but we can thank the media machine for blowing that one up for us but, is she wrong for what she has accepted considering her ordeal?
there's no way I could deny that. Hell, I'm not there either.

But I do have family there. A 20 year old cousin from Mississippi.

My placement on this was never to demolish Lynch as a person, but the way they will market her to the 'Lifetime' crowd.

Women will eat this shit up and buy this book forever.

As I have said, what she has, and will go through, to me is not worth the book deal or 5 million.

Ill stay my ass in america and dodge bullets in LA before going to iraq.

nothing is worth what she had to go through, and its a shame that america fiends for such entertainment.[/b][/quote]
Agreed. It's the same with missing children. Look at Elizabeth Smart. There are thousands of children that go missing every year and never recieve more than a mention in the local paper.

It's all in what is marketable. She is marketable.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX+Nov 6 2003, 09:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fletch XXX @ Nov 6 2003, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--dirtyone@Nov 6 2003, 06:02 PM
She was there, she was injured in the line of duty, and a POW. Her story as it was first told was not as it seemed but we can thank the media machine for blowing that one up for us but, is she wrong for what she has accepted considering her ordeal?
there's no way I could deny that. Hell, I'm not there either.

But I do have family there. A 20 year old cousin from Mississippi.

My placement on this was never to demolish Lynch as a person, but the way they will market her to the 'Lifetime' crowd.

Women will eat this shit up and buy this book forever.

As I have said, what she has, and will go through, to me is not worth the book deal or 5 million.

Ill stay my ass in america and dodge bullets in LA before going to iraq.

nothing is worth what she had to go through, and its a shame that america fiends for such entertainment.[/b][/quote]


This is the free market working. Something it does not seem fair, but its the best system out there. I feel better about Lynch getting a million for her story, then the criminals and other scumbags who gain noteriety through illegal or distateful ways to get their 15 minutes and big book/movie deals!!

[Fletch XXX]

criminals are not allowed to profit from crimes, Charles Manson included.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX@Nov 6 2003, 09:18 PM
criminals are not allowed to profit from crimes, Charles Manson included.


Hmmm maybe convicted crimninals.... What about white collar crime? Can you just not profit from writing about your crime, what about other topics?

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by Mike AI+Nov 6 2003, 06:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Nov 6 2003, 06:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Fletch XXX@Nov 6 2003, 09:18 PM
criminals are not allowed to profit from crimes, Charles Manson included.


Hmmm maybe convicted crimninals.... What about white collar crime? Can you just not profit from writing about your crime, what about other topics?[/b][/quote]
Not sure, Im sure there are cracks, all I know is criminals are not allowed to make money from there crimes such as books and movies.

The movie Helter Skelter proceeds were not given to Charles Manson.

and countless other criminals have watched people make money off their crime but they are not entitled to a dime.

I just watched a Charles Manson biography the other night and they brought it up.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX+Nov 6 2003, 09:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fletch XXX @ Nov 6 2003, 09:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Mike AI@Nov 6 2003, 06:29 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Fletch XXX@Nov 6 2003, 09:18 PM
criminals are not allowed to profit from crimes, Charles Manson included.


Hmmm maybe convicted crimninals.... What about white collar crime? Can you just not profit from writing about your crime, what about other topics?
Not sure, Im sure there are cracks, all I know is criminals are not allowed to make money from there crimes such as books and movies.

The movie Helter Skelter proceeds were not given to Charles Manson.

and countless other criminals have watched people make money off their crime but they are not entitled to a dime.

I just watched a Charles Manson biography the other night and they brought it up.[/b][/quote]


Discovery Channel??

I love cable.... history channel, discovery, etc....

[Fletch XXX]

nah, Biography channel.

http://www.biographychannel.com/

ON a side note, Guns And Roses did a cover song of one of Charles Mansons songs and Geffen only gives him 62k every million copies it sells.

hahaha too bad no one buys that shit album 'The Spaghetti Incident.'

hahaha



Last edited by Fletch XXX at Nov 6 2003, 06:44 PM

[[Labret]]

I payed a grand for a Charly Manson drawing, I wonder how much of it he got.

Make that 800 rather, for the extra 200 the dealer thew in some drawing by James Earl Ray and some doodles by Otis Toole. Ex-girlfriend used to refuse to be in the same room as the Otis Toole material.



Last edited by [Labret] at Nov 6 2003, 07:02 PM

[dirtyone]

Originally posted by [Labret]@Nov 6 2003, 06:52 PM
I payed a grand for a Charly Manson drawing, I wonder how much of it he got.

Make that 800 rather, for the extra 200 the dealer through in some drawing by James Earl Ray and some doodles by Otis Toole. Ex-girlfriend used to refuse to be in the same room as the Otis Toole material.
I didn't know who Otis Toole was so I went and educated myself. I can't really say I blame her.

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by [Labret]@Nov 6 2003, 06:52 PM
I payed a grand for a Charly Manson drawing, I wonder how much of it he got.

Make that 800 rather, for the extra 200 the dealer through in some drawing by James Earl Ray and some doodles by Otis Toole. Ex-girlfriend used to refuse to be in the same room as the Otis Toole material.
Nice man. IM a huge fan. Death Valley is right here, the Santa Susanna pass he sung about going into death valley is just up the road.

One of the best criminal art pieces I have seen in person from a friend was a sketch of Vic (the megadeth guy) from Richard Ramirez.

wicked shit.

[girlgeek]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX+Nov 6 2003, 06:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fletch XXX @ Nov 6 2003, 06:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Mike AI@Nov 6 2003, 06:29 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Fletch XXX@Nov 6 2003, 09:18 PM
criminals are not allowed to profit from crimes, Charles Manson included.


Hmmm maybe convicted crimninals.... What about white collar crime? Can you just not profit from writing about your crime, what about other topics?
Not sure, Im sure there are cracks, all I know is criminals are not allowed to make money from there crimes such as books and movies.

The movie Helter Skelter proceeds were not given to Charles Manson.

and countless other criminals have watched people make money off their crime but they are not entitled to a dime.

I just watched a Charles Manson biography the other night and they brought it up.[/b][/quote]
FletchXXX, I think you are talking about the Son of Sam law, which has been overturned by many states, because it conflicts with the First Amendment.

California overturned it last year:
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/docu...ocumentID=15773 (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=15773)

Here's some history on the law:
http://www.ncvc.org/gethelp/notorietyforprofit/

It doesn't distinguish between violent crimes and white-collar crimes, but most white-collar crimes are limited by a number of years in the court, before they can profit from their story. That is, before this ruling was redefined.

[Fletch XXX]

well that could very well be, the bio on Manson was at least 8 years old I guess.

I heard vocal samples from it used in White Zombie records that are at least 5 or 6 years old, so it would have been before the overturning.

learn something new everyday.

:awinky:

[[Labret]]

Originally posted by Fletch XXX+Nov 6 2003, 07:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fletch XXX @ Nov 6 2003, 07:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--[Labret]@Nov 6 2003, 06:52 PM
I payed a grand for a Charly Manson drawing, I wonder how much of it he got.

Make that 800 rather, for the extra 200 the dealer through in some drawing by James Earl Ray and some doodles by Otis Toole. Ex-girlfriend used to refuse to be in the same room as the Otis Toole material.
Nice man. IM a huge fan. Death Valley is right here, the Santa Susanna pass he sung about going into death valley is just up the road.

One of the best criminal art pieces I have seen in person from a friend was a sketch of Vic (the megadeth guy) from Richard Ramirez.

wicked shit.[/b][/quote]

hehe, I went through a brief period of wanting to collect serial killer art. I got a whole folder back home of doodles and scribbles of non art related stuff. An xmas card drawn by Henry Lee Lucas, some poems written by some Mexican female serial killer I never heard of and cant remember her name, lots of envelopes and letters, one from Gacy to some woman. I havent looked at most of it in a couple years. The Otis stuff I will admit gives me the creeps. I lost an auction a few months ago of a poorly done velvet elvis style painting by Gacy. God that would have been the shit.

Its amazing how cheap you can pick this shit up for. All the notes, letters, doodles, pictures, and small shit this guy would just throw in for free if you bought larger pieces. I forget his name, I found him after he was featured in an HBO special on people who collect serial killer stuff. I think he lived down around you there Fletch.



Last edited by [Labret] at Nov 6 2003, 07:10 PM

[girlgeek]

Maybe so. Each state had it's own similar law, only New York went to the Supreme Court on this one. I know there has been a lot of controversy over this law, but the courts left the avenue open for families and victims to sue in a civil court for damages, if the individual tries to profit. Like in the OJ case.

:awinky:

[Carrie]

The reason the media is pumping her up is because the audience is demanding it.
And they're not demanding it because they want to know every sordid little detail of her multiple rapes and beatings... it's because at this point, Jessica stands for HOPE.

Yes, she's a hero. Yes, she should've taken the money. After everything she's been through, it's a pittance that will not ever pay back the torture her mind is going to put her through until the day she dies.
They say she's blocked out the rapes and has no memory of them. That's some dangerous shit that *will* come rearing its ugly head one day - probably when she least expects it, while being touched lovingly by a husband or even when tending to her little girl (should she be able to have one). When it's repressed it tends to come back and destroy a life a second time.

Her state and local community also got together and gave her presents and scholarships, btw.

Sure, she might be dumb. Lord knows that watching her father speaking to the press was painful and I was relieved when her brother stepped up to the mikes. But she was trying to change that. She went into the service so that she could have the money to go to college.
And unlike so many women out there who get the call to go to war and "suddenly" find themselves pregnant, she went.
And while she was there, she was attacked, she fought back and defended her life, she lost close friends, she was brutally raped and beaten, and she was held captive... all because this young woman did her duty and answered the call to pay her debt for the college tuition she needed.

So YES, she is a hero, and YES, she should take that money and make the most of it. It will never change the horrible things that happened to her and the mindfuck she'll have for the rest of her life, but at least it will make her and her family more comfortable.

[dirtyone]

Carrie you are absolutly right in that the public is driving this thing as well the media is just feeding the publics desire to know every sordid detail. Happens every day. Look at the papers, tv, etc and the nonstop coverage of events that don't deserve more than a mention.

[[Labret]]

she plans on going to college? Ahhh the semi literate war hero diving headfirst into academic lefty land. She is fucked.

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by [Labret]+Nov 6 2003, 07:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ([Labret] @ Nov 6 2003, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Fletch XXX@Nov 6 2003, 07:00 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--[Labret]@Nov 6 2003, 06:52 PM
I payed a grand for a Charly Manson drawing, I wonder how much of it he got.

Make that 800 rather, for the extra 200 the dealer through in some drawing by James Earl Ray and some doodles by Otis Toole. Ex-girlfriend used to refuse to be in the same room as the Otis Toole material.
Nice man. IM a huge fan. Death Valley is right here, the Santa Susanna pass he sung about going into death valley is just up the road.

One of the best criminal art pieces I have seen in person from a friend was a sketch of Vic (the megadeth guy) from Richard Ramirez.

wicked shit.

hehe, I went through a brief period of wanting to collect serial killer art. I got a whole folder back home of doodles and scribbles of non art related stuff. An xmas card drawn by Henry Lee Lucas, some poems written by some Mexican female serial killer I never heard of and cant remember her name, lots of envelopes and letters, one from Gacy to some woman. I havent looked at most of it in a couple years. The Otis stuff I will admit gives me the creeps. I lost an auction a few months ago of a poorly done velvet elvis style painting by Gacy. God that would have been the shit.

Its amazing how cheap you can pick this shit up for. All the notes, letters, doodles, pictures, and small shit this guy would just throw in for free if you bought larger pieces. I forget his name, I found him after he was featured in an HBO special on people who collect serial killer stuff. I think he lived down around you there Fletch.[/b][/quote]
Very cool.

The girl that I knew that collected Ramirez art had his face tattooed on her back in a portrait. She wrote him and sent nude photos of herself to him to get the art and corresponded with her for awhile. I wonder what happened to that sick freak,, I want to say she moved out here. hahah no clue, people come and go.

Anyhow, I have a fascination with criminals myself, or just horrible scenes. I am planning a black and white photography expedition to various crime scenes, such as Death Valley Manson Ranch, Black Dahlia Murder Field etc... No clue what drives me to be interested in such activity, but theres nothing else that attracts me as much it seems.

IM a whore for classic black and white crime photography.

Like this:

http://jpg2.lapl.org/pics01/00010423.jpg

Folks reading Black Dahlia murder headlines 1947

http://jpg2.lapl.org/pics01/00010486.jpg

Covered Black Dahlia near the sidewalk. IM going to get the same shot just without the body. No clue why.

thanks for that shirt by the way.

[cherrylula]

Maybe they will get her to host a military themed reality show or some crappy tv project.

[Fletch XXX]

hahaha Id love to hear what ole Ermie has to say about Lynch.

:salute:

[J'springer]

Originally posted by Carrie@Nov 6 2003, 07:16 PM
The reason the media is pumping her up is because the audience is demanding it.
And they're not demanding it because they want to know every sordid little detail of her multiple rapes and beatings... it's because at this point, Jessica stands for HOPE.

Yes, she's a hero. Yes, she should've taken the money. After everything she's been through, it's a pittance that will not ever pay back the torture her mind is going to put her through until the day she dies.
They say she's blocked out the rapes and has no memory of them. That's some dangerous shit that *will* come rearing its ugly head one day - probably when she least expects it, while being touched lovingly by a husband or even when tending to her little girl (should she be able to have one). When it's repressed it tends to come back and destroy a life a second time.

Her state and local community also got together and gave her presents and scholarships, btw.

Sure, she might be dumb. Lord knows that watching her father speaking to the press was painful and I was relieved when her brother stepped up to the mikes. But she was trying to change that. She went into the service so that she could have the money to go to college.
And unlike so many women out there who get the call to go to war and "suddenly" find themselves pregnant, she went.
And while she was there, she was attacked, she fought back and defended her life, she lost close friends, she was brutally raped and beaten, and she was held captive... all because this young woman did her duty and answered the call to pay her debt for the college tuition she needed.

So YES, she is a hero, and YES, she should take that money and make the most of it. It will never change the horrible things that happened to her and the mindfuck she'll have for the rest of her life, but at least it will make her and her family more comfortable.
You guys gotta be kidding. Calling this woman a hero cheapens the word. She is a manufactured for tv babe who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. What about the big black woman who was shot in the ankles and only got a thirty per cent disability pension. She took a lot more shit than this cute white girl. Jessica is a CNN/Military confection and if you guys can't see this, you are media victims.
Just because you go to war does not make you a hero. If you manage to distinguish yourself, save lives, resist torture or die trying, you are a hero. This ain't even a war yet. The fun has only started. I am old enough to remember when American "advisors" were in Viet Nam. Then it just escalated until another military concoction brought in the troops and many died and many heroes died in the shit hole that was south east asia. To call this woman a hero does a great disservice to those brave men and the memory of heroes that came back in body bags. This is just sick sick sick. :headwall:

[Sharpie]

Part of the magic is that she was rescued.....The miltary had to love that. That is what separates her story from most of the others.

Sort of like the movie made about the 'raid on Entebe by Israel. It makes for a good story.

[J'springer]

Originally posted by Sharpie@Nov 6 2003, 07:43 PM
Part of the magic is that she was rescued.....The miltary had to love that. That is what separates her story from most of the others.

Sort of like the movie made about the 'raid on Entebe by Israel. It makes for a good story.
Entebbe was a brilliant, well planned and executed military maneuver. This was given to them on a plate.....and staged for TV. The whole thing is a crock and I can't believe anyone swallows this BS. People who believe this shit got America into this lost cause in the first place.

[dirtyone]

Originally posted by J'springer@Nov 6 2003, 07:35 PM
Just because you go to war does not make you a hero. If you manage to distinguish yourself, save lives, resist torture or die trying, you are a hero.:

If she had come home in a body bag would she be a hero then?

[Hell Puppy]

Ok, first thing I agree with those who say anyone who puts their ass on the line for their country is a hero. Period. P.O.W.'s are a special breed of hero because they often give up more for their country than most of us can even imagine.

Lynch is certainly no more or less of a hero than anyone else over there who was capture or killed. She does NOT deserve any special medals. They were in a supply/maintenance convoy, their dumbasses got off course and got caught. If anyone deserves a medal, it's the team who went in and rescued her. They risked all of their lives to save that of a comrade.

It is a story that has captivated people though. It's a free market, supply and demand dictates that there's money in the story. So more power to her as she cashes it in.

Would she get the same coverage if she were not cute and female? Probably not. Does she deserve any more sympathy than any other P.O.W. who might've received similar treatment? No, actually she doesn't. If you want equality and want to put women on the battlefield, even in non-combat roles, you gotta accept the potential consequences of the action.

If you're gonna dance, sooner or later ya gotta pay the fiddler!

[eatapeach]

here's what just got posted on drudge a bit ago:

JESSICA LYNCH DISPUTES ARMY ACCOUNT OF DRAMATIC RESCUE!

Jessica Lynch criticized military for exaggerating accounts of her rescue and recasting her ordeal as patriotic fable.... MORE..

Asked by ABCNEWS anchor Diane Sawyer if military's portrayal of rescue bothered her, Lynch said: 'Yeah, it does. It does that they used me as a way to symbolize all this stuff. Yeah, it's wrong' ... Asked how she felt about reports of her heroism: 'It hurt in a way that people would make up stories that they had no truth about. Only I would have been able to know that, because the other four people on my vehicle aren't here to tell the story. So I would have been the only one able to say, Yeah, I went down shooting. But I didn't' ...

Asked about claims the military exaggerated danger of the rescue mission: 'Yeah, I don't think it happened quite like that'...

************************************************** **********

i have a feeling we'll be hearing more about this in the future.......

[dirtyone]

I think we have already covered that.

Everyone here is in agreement that the government, the media, and the publics insatiable appetite for news right now blew the whole story out of proportion regarding her capture and rescue but the fact remains that she was seriously injured in the whole process, as well as raped while in captivity and will suffer with this the rest of her life.

My original intent of the thread was to get opinions on Lynch as the story and her life is now i.e. the book deal and TV story.

Anyone who still believes the original story as it came out is crazy.

[[Labret]]

Originally posted by dirtyone@Nov 6 2003, 09:44 PM


Anyone who still believes the original story as it came out is crazy.

This thread needs TheKing. He is serious Oprano material.

But yeah, if she comes out and says the administrations story was all bullshit. Christ, that will be devastating.



Last edited by [Labret] at Nov 6 2003, 09:47 PM

[dirtyone]

Originally posted by [Labret]+Nov 6 2003, 09:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ([Labret] @ Nov 6 2003, 09:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--dirtyone@Nov 6 2003, 09:44 PM


Anyone who still believes the original story as it came out is crazy.

This thread needs TheKing. He is serious Oprano material.

But yeah, if she comes out and says the administrations story was all bullshit. Christ, that will be devastating.[/b][/quote]
I don't think it was entirely bullshit.

More along the lines of the media picked it up, the country needed a hero, and no one said anything to the contrary.

Now the dust has settled and we are left with the book, the interview, and a made for tv movie.


Fell free to continue this among yourselves... I am going to bed.



Last edited by dirtyone at Nov 6 2003, 09:54 PM

[Fletch XXX]

if they make it a movie, they should get kobe to play the iraqi that dips his meat in her backdoor

[slavdogg]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=35463 (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35463)

[[Labret]]

POW's get special license plates and dont have to pay for tabs right?

Score. I would let an Iraqi play with my doodle hole for free tabs and a cool license plate for life.

[spazlabz]

As a former jarhead I must admit I am not, nor have I ever been in the throes of a jessicagasm. She's a relatively pretty white girl in a non combat unit that got lost in the desert and captured. It happens. It shouldnt, but it does.
She isn't any more a hero than any of the other fighting men & women stationed anywhere else across this wonderful globe. Yes, people are shooting at them in Iraq. Yes it is dangerous. But it is their job, and they are doing it, for the most part with honor. But heroism is a different standard altogether. It is ABOVE & BEYOND the call of duty.
I personally feel that the young urban male, struggling to keep an honest 9-5 job, making a little better than minimum wage while walking through the mean streets of big city USA, going past his high school bros peddling crack to get to a bus because he cant afford a car. All the while not giving in to the easy cash options readily available to him. Or an 18 year old girl faced with the same choices and 2 kids to take care of. To me, those are heroic actions.
Surviving isn't, not to me.
There are other women who have been taken prisoner, suffered the same as Jessica has or worse, yet they get no publicity. No one knows their names. I don't blame Jessica for the inflated hype surrounding her at all. Take the money and run little girl is what I say. But I lost any shred of respect for her the day I saw the Iraqi (lawyer) who risked his life twice, walking miles and miles to tell the Marines the info they needed to rescue her, when he came to the town she was in to receive some small award of appreciation, and Jessica Lynch did not even bother to show up. He was a true gentleman, and conducted himself with quiet humble dignity. HE is the hero of this story. Not the backwoods little girl whose ingratitude went widely unnoticed.

spaz

[Carrie]

Spaz, she is saying that she doesn't remember him whatsoever, and claims that she *does* remember all of the people she interacted with in the hospital. This is probably part of the "blocking out" that she's done, or he simply didn't go into her room and speak with her like he said he did. Perhaps he exagerrated that part a bit for dramatics and really just stood outside her room looking in through the glass.

As for her saying the rescue was overplayed - how would she know? Her view of the entire thing consisted of having a bunch of Marines come into her room, grab her and carry her out to the copter, and flying out. She has no idea - and can have no firsthand idea - of what those guys went through to get in there to get her.

I don't think you have to come home in a body bag to be a hero. I am thankful to everyone - man or woman - who has put on a uniform and protected my freedom. They're all heros to me and deserve to be treated a lot better than what they get.

[spazlabz]

Originally posted by Carrie@Nov 7 2003, 03:02 AM


I don't think you have to come home in a body bag to be a hero. I am thankful to everyone - man or woman - who has put on a uniform and protected my freedom. They're all heros to me and deserve to be treated a lot better than what they get.
I couldn't agree with you more Carrie. They do deserve to be treated better than they have been in the past. But I will give you three military men that are true heros in my own eyes
Sgt York, this man did things that are truely unbelieveable. A hero to the bone who could never accept it.
Chesty Puller, Every Jarheads definition of a true Marine. This man had so many ribbons and medals to where them all they would have wrapped over his shoulders and onto his back. He had to get a Presidential approval to go to formal functions and NOT WEAR all of them.
My Dad. 1 Silver Star (with a "V") 2 Bronze stars (with oak leaf clusters) 4 Purple Hearts, all from Nam. He showed me continuously what true strength of character really is, and put in me a desire to be 'one of the best' at anything I do.
As a former military man myself, I can say that if I were in the situation Jessica finds herself in, I would be kind of embarrassed by the attention. I am not saying how she should or shouldnt act. Only how Iwould. I would feel that I was only doing my job, surviving with my life, and coming back home to my family.
I don't know, maybe my standard of what a hero is is a bit to high.

Spaz, she is saying that she doesn't remember him whatsoever, and claims that she *does* remember all of the people she interacted with in the hospital. This is probably part of the "blocking out" that she's done, or he simply didn't go into her room and speak with her like he said he did. Perhaps he exagerrated that part a bit for dramatics and really just stood outside her room looking in through the glass.

That could all be true, but even if he stood outside her window jerking off he still put his own life at risk to get the info to he Marines, not once, but twice (they told him to go back and get more intel) That takes some brass ones in my old weak eyes :)

spaz

[Torone]

Originally posted by [Labret]@Nov 6 2003, 07:11 PM
As much a hero as the Dominican janitor that went down with the twin towers.

Were any of you unfortunate enough to listen to her read her statement upon return to the states? That girl is dumb as a fucking stump.
By your thinking, then, Sgt. Alvin York, Audie Murphy, and many others were not heroes, either.

The IQ doesn't have anything to do with it. Your heroes are probably athletes, right? Most of them are about as smart as a doorknob; and they have done nothing that could be called truly heroic. :grrr: :nyanya: :ph34r:

[spazlabz]

I think it is admirable that Americans are respecting the military and the job those men and women do, but the monicure(sp) of Hero, IMO, and that of a lot of military personel is, it should only be given to those who have shown "Uncommon Valor"

spaz

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by spazlabz@Nov 7 2003, 06:37 AM
I think it is admirable that Americans are respecting the military and the job those men and women do, but the monicure(sp) of Hero, IMO, and that of a lot of military personel is, it should only be given to those who have shown "Uncommon Valor"

spaz


I think there are levels of being a hero. The bottom rung for me is being in a combat ( even if not a combat unit), and being a POW... Maybe there is some other word that would fit better. Obviously she did not go above and beyond the call of duty. She should not be receiving and medals but for the Purple Heart.

[[Labret]]

Originally posted by Torone@Nov 7 2003, 03:26 AM

By your thinking, then, Sgt. Alvin York, Audie Murphy, and many others were not heroes, either.

The IQ doesn't have anything to do with it. Your heroes are probably athletes, right? Most of them are about as smart as a doorknob; and they have done nothing that could be called truly heroic. :grrr: :nyanya: :ph34r:

Yeah, athletes. You got me all figured out. I watch sports probably as much as you read.

Where in that did you read that I thought you had to be a genius to be a hero? I simply said she was dumb as a stump. It was painfully embarrassing listening to her stumblefuck her way through a poorly written statement that sounded like it was penned by an 8 year old. How she made it into the military is beyond me, I thought we had tougher standards post Vietnam. Its no wonder she was just a supply clerk. "Here is your toilet paper sir".

She is not a hero, she is a victim. All it takes to be a hero now is to get captured without firing a shot and getting cornholed? Calling her a hero is an insult to people who actually are heros.



Last edited by [Labret] at Nov 7 2003, 07:48 AM

[TeenGodFather]

Originally posted by [Labret]@Nov 7 2003, 07:48 AM
Yeah, athletes. You got me all figured out. I watch sports probably as much as you read.
hehehhe. :bwave:

[PornoDoggy]

Somehow, I find speculation by keyboard warriors about what Jessica could or couldn't know about her rescue effort kind of amusing. Predictable, but amusing.

I noticed that Ronnie Raygunz cartoonist son didn't miss the opportunity to blame the hoopla on the feminist conspiracy. I wonder what conspiracy is responsible for fake letters to the editor submitted to small-town newspapers without the knowledge of the supposed authors?

The military PR machine needed a hero. As I said before, she's white, reasonably cute, and was a great vehicle for diverting attention away from real news and onto her and the hokey story they concocted.

Is she a hero? She doesn't meet Patton's definition, because she apparently didn't make any "poor dumb bastards die for their country." However, she did survive a pretty horrible ordeal.

As much as I hate to admit it, I agree with [Labret] (evne though he always remind me of a great line that the ventriloquist William Safire caused the puppet Spiro Agnew to utter - "nattering nabobs of negativism") - she's as much of a victim as a hero. It could be that her "lack of eloquence" is one of the attributes that allowed her to survive.

Some, for example, as articulate as you is likely to get shot a lot quicker.

And if you survived long enough to get captured ... :D

[Buff]

I don't consider her to be a hero, because I don't consider her to have done anything heroic. I consider her to be unlucky to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, and lucky to be alive. However, she did put her life on the line to volunteer to be in the military, and so that's worth some points in my book.

There is no good reason why she should not profit from her experience if the marketplace is willing to reward her for it. Now ask me if politicians should be allowed to profit from their experience (which mostly consists of using force or the threat of force to redistribute resources and mooch off the taxpayer).

[Carrie]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Nov 7 2003, 12:52 PM
Somehow, I find speculation by keyboard warriors about what Jessica could or couldn't know about her rescue effort kind of amusing. Predictable, but amusing.
PD, would you care to explain to me what Jessica *could* know about the part of her rescue that she was not involved in?

Seems to me that all she could know about that part of her rescue would be hearsay, just as all that you or I know about that part of her rescue is hearsay.
Unless I'm missing some impirical knowledge that only you and Jessica seem to share that allows you to know the full details of events that you were not present for?

If you find "speculation by keyboard warriors" amusing, you should try watching "omnipotent name-callers." :P

[[Labret]]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Nov 7 2003, 09:52 AM
I agree with [Labret] (evne though he always remind me of a great line that the ventriloquist William Safire caused the puppet Spiro Agnew to utter - "nattering nabobs of negativism") -
I had to run to google to figure out what that even meant.


In a speech in San Diego in 1970, then Vice President Spiro Agnew used the phrase "nattering nabobs of negativism" to describe supposed intellectuals who attacked American policy. "Natter" is defined as "to nag, to find fault peevishly," and a "nabob" is "a native provincial deputy or governor of the old Mogul empire in India; a native district ruler in India" or "European who has become rich in India" or "a very rich man" (Websters New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, Deluxe Second Edition). Agnew's speech writers undoubtedly put the terms together because of their alliterative value, but the phrase does paint an interesting although unpleasant word picture of a self-important person nagging and criticizing everyone else.


:rokk:



Last edited by [Labret] at Nov 7 2003, 02:52 PM

[kath]

Half of this discussion disgusts me - the other half, at least, has made me think. The best part? Wow... people are actually "looking up stuff" that they didn't know.

Everything is educational - even this thread.

Hero, survivor, victim, media princess.... whatever. Either way she's been through a lot more shit than most of us will ever see in our entire lives and has survived. That at least deserves some respect - even if not the title of hero.

As far as the comment about women eating up this book for the 'Lifetime' set... remember not to generalize. We're not all card-carrying nazi shithead feminists looking for a new heroine to put on a pedestal and worship. Give the rest of us a little more credit. <_<

[dirtyone]

Originally posted by kath@Nov 7 2003, 03:25 PM
Half of this discussion disgusts me - the other half, at least, has made me think. The best part? Wow... people are actually "looking up stuff" that they didn't know.

Everything is educational - even this thread.

Hero, survivor, victim, media princess.... whatever. Either way she's been through a lot more shit than most of us will ever see in our entire lives and has survived. That at least deserves some respect - even if not the title of hero.

As far as the comment about women eating up this book for the 'Lifetime' set... remember not to generalize. We're not all card-carrying nazi shithead feminists looking for a new heroine to put on a pedestal and worship. Give the rest of us a little more credit. <_<
Kath... I went back and re-read the original thread on the other board that gave me the idea to post this here. I have to agree that for the most part there has been actual intelligent discussion and that is what I was really looking for. Not all of the crap that usually is accompanied by this type of thread. Agree or disagree the discussion has been interesting.


I like this place and think I will hang around.

[PornoDoggy]

Carrie, just to start with she was there. She also might have sources a little more "in the loop" (and far less controlled) than yours or mine.

I don't pretend to know the details of the rescue. I certainly don't trust media accounts of it - and I give her account only marginally more credence than media accounts. I don't doubt that it was dangerous - but at the point it took place there was a better than average chance that Iraqi resistance would simply melt away. So simply put, I view ANYONE who makes declaritive statements about it with a considerable amount of distrust.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by [Labret]+Nov 7 2003, 01:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ([Labret] @ Nov 7 2003, 01:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--PornoDoggy@Nov 7 2003, 09:52 AM
I agree with [Labret] (evne though he always remind me of a great line that the ventriloquist William Safire caused the puppet Spiro Agnew to utter - "nattering nabobs of negativism") -
I had to run to google to figure out what that even meant.


:rokk:[/b][/quote]
Fuck, I wish I'd had google when I first heard it - I had to look it up in my Funk and Wagnells. That's a heavy fuggin book, man, and there's like, soooooo many realllllllllllllllllly far out words.

[Fletch XXX]

Originally posted by kath@Nov 7 2003, 03:25 PM
Half of this discussion disgusts me

As far as the comment about women eating up this book for the 'Lifetime' set... remember not to generalize. We're not all card-carrying nazi shithead feminists looking for a new heroine to put on a pedestal and worship. Give the rest of us a little more credit. <_<
glad i could disgust you.

sometimes my opinions tend to do that.

dont let it bother you, i dont let it bother me.

:inlove:

[Fletch XXX]

Id like to see sales reports and who buys this book.

somehow I doubt many men will buy this crap.

i can just see marines sitting around reading it.

Yeah, R Lee Ermey gonna mention it on Mail Call. yeah.

sorry, thats just not the case, every product has a target audience, and if this shit isnt targetted towardas the women who sit home all day and watch Lifetime, what is?



Last edited by Fletch XXX at Nov 7 2003, 05:12 PM

[cherrylula]

That book will wind up in the clearance section of mall bookstores. Too much hype and she's already denying half the shit.

But no doubt lonely housewives with bookclub memberships are looking forward to it.

[DannyCox]

Yes, the nice, cute, little white girl is a Hero!

Now, who (without searching) can name the black woman that was captured with her? The one that went through interrogation by the Iraqis? The one that was scared shitless when they showed her image on the television? (While poor Jessica was out cold in the infirmary) Yes, the overweight, black female cook!

I guess a black, overweight, female cook just isn't a Hero....

[Squirt]

Originally posted by DannyCox@Nov 7 2003, 10:18 PM
Yes, the nice, cute, little white girl is a Hero!

Now, who (without searching) can name the black woman that was captured with her? The one that went through interrogation by the Iraqis? The one that was scared shitless when they showed her image on the television? (While poor Jessica was out cold in the infirmary) Yes, the overweight, black female cook!

I guess a black, overweight, female cook just isn't a Hero....

Hit the nail on the head with that one. I identified with the black cook. When I saw her on the screen I clearly felt part of what she was experiencing. I feared for her. BTW what happened to her? I remember seeing footage of her and the others held with her running off a plane together a while after their rescue. The report said they were healthy. I thought for sure they would rape and torture her. If they didn't, I'm glad she didn't have to endure that.

Jessica on the other hand, I did not identify with. I never saw her fear.. only footage of her being whisked away half dead and hearing reports that all of the other guys of ours that were held with her were dead.

I secretly wondered if they went in shooting at anything that moved after they got their sites on her. I thought it was the stereotypical macho testosterone thing to do.... save your pussy at all cost. Now she has pretty much confirmed that. I'm glad JL is keeping it real and taking a stand against how she was portrayed. She might not be smart but she has good character.

Hey guys.. anyone else notice that now the presidential race in on the horizon we are seeing more good things creeping in our news reports like "Joblessness falls as payroll numbers grow again". I wonder what new miracle the president is going to work these next few months to clean his tarnished image?

[Torone]

Originally posted by [Labret]+Nov 7 2003, 09:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ([Labret] @ Nov 7 2003, 09:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Torone@Nov 7 2003, 03:26 AM

By your thinking, then, Sgt. Alvin York, Audie Murphy, and many others were not heroes, either.

The IQ doesn't have anything to do with it. Your heroes are probably athletes, right? Most of them are about as smart as a doorknob; and they have done nothing that could be called truly heroic. :grrr: :nyanya: :ph34r:

Yeah, athletes. You got me all figured out. I watch sports probably as much as you read.

Where in that did you read that I thought you had to be a genius to be a hero? I simply said she was dumb as a stump. It was painfully embarrassing listening to her stumblefuck her way through a poorly written statement that sounded like it was penned by an 8 year old. How she made it into the military is beyond me, I thought we had tougher standards post Vietnam. Its no wonder she was just a supply clerk. "Here is your toilet paper sir".

She is not a hero, she is a victim. All it takes to be a hero now is to get captured without firing a shot and getting cornholed? Calling her a hero is an insult to people who actually are heros.[/b][/quote]
As a matter of fact, I probably read a hell of a lot more than you...ever hear of E.E. Smith? How about Ayn Rand? Ann Coulter?

That said, I stick by my original interpretation of your post.

As for her statement, I recognize the structure and content as coming almost directly from a certain KKK'er who just happens to be very anti-war, anti-military, and the elder Senator from...





West Virginia!

[Torone]

As for the 'hero' part, the last I heard, our military forces were all volunteer. That means she joined of her own accord. In my opinion, ALL of our people who are serving or have served in combat (may I remind you of Bosnia, Kosovo, VietNam, Korea, etc.?) are heroes. Whether she deserved a Bronze Star or just a Purple Heart IS debatable. Personally, I would have stopped at the PH...

There ARE others there who have done more. They are of many races and both sexes. As I said, they are ALL heroes.