Supreme Court Revisiting Online Porn Law

[Carrie]

It says that the only porn allowable would be that behind an age verification.
That's all fine and dandy, but where is this magical age verification system?
Visa has said it won't be held responsible and rightly so... they've been on a campaign to push credit cards into the hands of minors for at least 5 years now. Visa Buxx, Visa debit/credit cards with every checking account, etc.

Germany has put down a new law saying everything had to be age-verified, and came out with two means of age verification. One is an unlock device, like a USB dongle, that you purchase at the store. Your age is verified when you purchase it.
The other is a credit card scanner that hooks up to your computer and allows you to slide your card through and type in your pin number in real-time, proving you are making the purchase. (Unless of course your kid knows the pin.)

But in the US, we've got nothing like this.
It would be so freaking easy, too. Little $7 devices. No biggee. Why can't we get them on the market?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...tus_online_porn (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031014/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_online_porn)

And before folks start coming in here bitching about Bush and Ashcroft, read the article. Especially the part where it reminds you that this legislation was originally written in '96 and pushed through and signed the first time by none other than President Clinton.

[Mike AI]

Very important issues. Lawmakers and judges are out of touch with technology.

I LOVE the idea of no free porn.... but there needs to be a system that works. Without VISA/Mastercard there is NO AVS.

[sarettah]

um.er..cough cough....

http://www.bitsntits.com/register.htm


************************************************** *

http://www.epic.org/free_speech/censorship/copa.html


``SEC. 231. RESTRICTION OF ACCESS BY MINORS TO MATERIALS
COMMERCIALLY DISTRIBUTED BY MEANS OF WORLD WIDE
WEB THAT ARE HARMFUL TO MINORS.

``(a) Requirement To Restrict Access.--

``(1) Prohibited conduct.--Whoever knowingly and with
knowledge of the character of the material, in interstate or
foreign commerce by means of the World Wide Web, makes any
communication for commercial purposes that is available to
any minor and that includes any material that is harmful to
minors shall be fined not more than $50,000, imprisoned not
more than 6 months, or both.

....................................



``© Affirmative Defense.--

``(1) Defense.--It is an affirmative defense to prosecution
under this section that the defendant, in good faith, has
restricted access by minors to material that is harmful to
minors--

``(A) by requiring use of a credit card , debit account,
adult access code, or adult personal identification number;

``(B) by accepting a digital certificate that verifies age;
or
``© by any other reasonable measures that are feasible
under available technology.

``(2) Protection for use of defenses.--No cause of action
may be brought in any court or administrative agency against
any person on account of any activity that is not in
violation of any law punishable by criminal or civil penalty,
and that the person has taken in good faith to implement a
defense authorized under this subsection or otherwise to
restrict or prevent the transmission of, or access to, a
communication specified in this section.

[Carrie]

I totally agree, Mike. No free porn - or no uncensored porn - would be a great boon.

Sare - sure, they say that in COPA, but COPA was written long before Visa stepped up and said "you can't use us for age verification". It's still in the law today, that credit cards can be used... but the credit card companies are saying no.
One hand hasn't caught up with the other and Mike's right, the judges definitely are not caught up with technology.

[Carrie]

Here's another article on it:
http://dc.internet.com/news/article.php/3091971

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Carrie@Oct 14 2003, 09:39 PM
Sare - sure, they say that in COPA, but COPA was written long before Visa stepped up and said "you can't use us for age verification". It's still in the law today, that credit cards can be used... but the credit card companies are saying no.
One hand hasn't caught up with the other and Mike's right, the judges definitely are not caught up with technology.
COPA is not what I was trying to point out.....

http://www.bitsntits.com/register.htm

I was trying to point out that if you can prove they have access to a verifiable credit card number (which means the number fits the formula for a major credit card and passes the lund ) then you can use the credit card for verification without ever passing it to a processor.....

Thats what I am trying on bits n tits... I construct a checkcode tells me if it was a valid visa/mastercard/diners/amex length and had the right starting number or group of numbers and gives me the lund... I complete the calc on the server end...

Therefore, they have provided a credit card NUMBER that is valid.... not necessarilly a valid card....

In COPAs final report they stated:

D. Age Verification Systems
8. Age Verification Systems based on credit cards
Use by a content source of a system to condition access to a web page (or pushed content) on the end user's ability to provide a credit card number. The number may or may not be verified as relating to a valid card (it may not be used for charging a fee) and may or may not be further analyzed to assure that the holder of the card is an adult

http://www.copacommission.org/report/ageve...ification.shtml (http://www.copacommission.org/report/ageverification.shtml)

So, you do not have to have VISA or Mastercard cooperating.... Although they are missing a great market by not creating an "age verification transaction" for general use by the adult web....



Last edited by sarettah at Oct 14 2003, 09:52 PM

[Carrie]

Sare that whole idea is fatally flawed, as millions of minors are walking around right now with their own debit cards that have Visa-compliant numbers on them and can act as credit cards.
Valid numbers does not equal 18 years old.

All a lawyer has to do is ask you if you own or have ever seen a Visa debit card, and you're done. Answer yes and you're screwed, answer no and you're lying (and also screwed). :(

[sarettah]

nope...

because they have stated:

``(A) by requiring use of a credit card , debit account,
adult access code, or adult personal identification number;

and further they stated that as an affirmative defense:

``(2) Protection for use of defenses.--No cause of action
may be brought in any court or administrative agency against
any person on account of any activity that is not in
violation of any law punishable by criminal or civil penalty,
and that the person has taken in good faith to implement a
defense authorized under this subsection or otherwise to
restrict or prevent the transmission of, or access to, a
communication specified in this section

and COPA had already noted:

This system's limitations include the fact that some children have access to credit cards, and it is unclear how this system would apply to sites outside the US. It is not effective at blocking access to chat, newsgroups, or instant messaging. Delay in billing means that unauthorized access to harmful to minors materials could occur.

***********************************************

There is no way from this end, or even at most processors to know if it is a debit or credit number (at least with VISA).. So, if they accept the access to a valid credit card number as proof then it is covered....

My lawyer gave me the go ahead to put it up after looking at it and checking some sources... He is still researching for me how to make it, and if I can make it "bullet proof" and since COPA is what is being argued right now, I am safe for now if I use it... And it will stand a whole lot more scrutiny then the little disclaimers most of us have on our free sites (which most of us let google go around anyway)....

I will let you know how it goes.... Got to get the site finished first...lolol...



Last edited by sarettah at Oct 14 2003, 10:07 PM

[sarettah]

Lol....

I just realized that this story was actually refe in three different threads Including this one) and yours is the only one that got replies....

you should feel honored :)

http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/index.php?a...253b37f7c2b4ac2 (http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=6286&s=22a6451b23fffe724253b37f7c2b4ac2)

http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/index.php?a...253b37f7c2b4ac2 (http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=6294&s=22a6451b23fffe724253b37f7c2b4ac2)

[Dravyk]

Originally posted by Carrie@Oct 14 2003, 08:26 PM
Germany has put down a new law saying everything had to be age-verified, and came out with two means of age verification. One is an unlock device, like a USB dongle, that you purchase at the store. Your age is verified when you purchase it.
The other is a credit card scanner that hooks up to your computer and allows you to slide your card through and type in your pin number in real-time, proving you are making the purchase. (Unless of course your kid knows the pin.)
I look forward to the day when the credit card swipe device becomes as normal an accesory on every PC as a CD player now is.

Why it is taking so long? Wish I knew. And by the time it becomes a common place PC device ... well, at this rate it may be too late for 90% of the industry.

[wig]

There are already 3rd party tools that can match consumers information with DOB and SSN.

There are even challenge questions that can be asked, such as who is your mortgage with?

I think in the end it all comes down to "commercially reasonable" effort, which admittedly is a grey area.

[Mike AI]

Originally posted by sarettah+Oct 14 2003, 09:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sarettah @ Oct 14 2003, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Carrie@Oct 14 2003, 09:39 PM
Sare - sure, they say that in COPA, but COPA was written long before Visa stepped up and said "you can't use us for age verification". It's still in the law today, that credit cards can be used... but the credit card companies are saying no.
One hand hasn't caught up with the other and Mike's right, the judges definitely are not caught up with technology.
COPA is not what I was trying to point out.....

http://www.bitsntits.com/register.htm

I was trying to point out that if you can prove they have access to a verifiable credit card number (which means the number fits the formula for a major credit card and passes the lund ) then you can use the credit card for verification without ever passing it to a processor.....

Thats what I am trying on bits n tits... I construct a checkcode tells me if it was a valid visa/mastercard/diners/amex length and had the right starting number or group of numbers and gives me the lund... I complete the calc on the server end...

Therefore, they have provided a credit card NUMBER that is valid.... not necessarilly a valid card....

In COPAs final report they stated:

D. Age Verification Systems
8. Age Verification Systems based on credit cards
Use by a content source of a system to condition access to a web page (or pushed content) on the end user's ability to provide a credit card number. The number may or may not be verified as relating to a valid card (it may not be used for charging a fee) and may or may not be further analyzed to assure that the holder of the card is an adult

http://www.copacommission.org/report/ageve...ification.shtml (http://www.copacommission.org/report/ageverification.shtml)

So, you do not have to have VISA or Mastercard cooperating.... Although they are missing a great market by not creating an "age verification transaction" for general use by the adult web....[/b][/quote]


First, anyone can find a generator for those 15 digits codes.... it is just based on an algorythim.

Second, I do not think I want to take crdit card numbers on my site without a SECURE page.

Third, so many surfers have been screwed over by the "just enter your CC in for verification, YOU WILL NOT BE BILLED scam" that surfer just moves on.

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Oct 15 2003, 08:59 AM
First, anyone can find a generator for those 15 digits codes.... it is just based on an algorythim.

Second, I do not think I want to take crdit card numbers on my site without a SECURE page.

Third, so many surfers have been screwed over by the "just enter your CC in for verification, YOU WILL NOT BE BILLED scam" that surfer just moves on.
1. They are not all 15 digit codes and someone would have to examine the javacode pretty careful to see what point I am stopping the calculation and passing the results to the server... If they do that, then I can prove that they made a concerted effort to go around the system and I am in the clear...

2. I would rather have it secure also, but it is not worth the time, effort or expense for an experiment at this time.

3. Thats the one that everyone has to deal with... Getting them to put the number into the box... Which is why I invite them to examine the code (for what it's worth) to see exactly what is going on....

Anyway, it is an attempt to put free stuff behind some kind of protection... I would hope that any kind of attempt to come up with something legal and workable would be viewed as a positive.......

[spazlabz]

Harmful to minors
I would rather have my kids seeing two consenting adults banging away like we all did/do when passion is high, then have them see
underage sex (this goes without saying, but i will say it anyway, its shameful)
Anything that glorifies drug use
Any speech by the President
OR THIS SHIT God Hates Fags (http://www.godhatesfags.com/)
Can you fucking believe that there ae people with THAT kind of twisted mentality and too much time on their hands?

spaz

[Toolz]

USB attachment: This could be a GREAT idea if executed properly, hint hint I don't have time or resources so here it is for someone else to exploit.

Sell it everywhere, looks like the little USB jump drives about the size of a keychain. When you purchase it for say $5. It's encoded with your age, address, and credit card info from the store you purchased it at, doesn't even need to be a store, could be an atm like machine where you insert your drivers license and your credit card, out pops your key coder, you then create a pin for it at that same time. Now my state MI has encoded licenses already with all the data on the back in a data strip not sure if every state has this, but imagine not being able to buy anything online unless you had one of these? Shoot forget, Visa and MC you could even tie this directly into your bank account, try charging back when YOUR keycoder was inserted into the usb slot and you used the pin seems like all online merchants would be dying for this. Would probably take an 18month -24 month phase in period but it's a very realistic idea to solve a problem.

[sarettah]

Not to denigrate a good idea toolz but,

I imagine that it would be a very short time between introduction and counterfeit versions appearing on the market... Kind of like cable descramblers, etc..... I remember back in 91, I was working for a software development company and we used an unlock scheme that required a serial plug in that was coded for a particular copy of the software... Idea was good, worked well for a while, until counterfeit versions showed up along with software that would extract the serial number from the disk to unlock the software...

Now if you could take something like you described and make it bulletproof....

But the problem with technology is for every good idea to protect something there are a thousand crakers waitng to try their hand at overriding it.........

[Toolz]

Why not employ some of that crazy encryption, what is the max now 1024 bit?

[Toolz]

LOL, nevermind quick search of the web found that's already been compromised.