View Full Version : Who was the greatest leader of the 20th century?
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 09:46 AM
Who was the greatest leader of the 20th century and why?
How about of all time?
Originally posted by Colin@Oct 9 2003, 08:54 AM
How about of all time?
Jesus Christ is still leading people after death. ;)
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 10:24 AM
I like Churchill in the 20th.
Two quotes:
"We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, What is our policy? I will say; "It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us: to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy." You ask, What is our aim? I can answer with one word: Victory - victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory there is no survival." "
"We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France and on the seas and oceans; we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We shall defend our island whatever the cost may be; we shall fight on beaches, landing grounds, in fields, in streets and on the hills. We shall never surrender and even if, which I do not for the moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, will carry on the struggle until in God's good time the New World with all its power and might, sets forth to the liberation and rescue of the Old"
Mike AI
10-09-2003, 12:16 PM
Churchill and Reagan.
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 12:31 PM
plus Thatcher :)
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Oct 9 2003, 11:24 AM
Reagan.
I like Reagan but best of the 20th century? I think you're just trying to get a rise out of PD. ;-)
I pick Gandhi as my second.
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 11:39 AM
plus Thatcher :)
Thatcher is the glue that holds Churchill and Reagan together.
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 11:39 AM
plus Thatcher :)
Just read her new book. "Statecraft".
A Churchillizm:
Late one night in Downing street, Churchill leaves his office for the night after consuming a scotch or two.
He's walking through the house when he bumps into a cleaning woman, knocking her clean over.
She stands herself up, brushes herself down and looks at the Prime Minister. Noticing he's a little worse for ware she says "Sir you are drunk!"
To which he replies "Madam, you are ugly! Tomorrow I shall be sober!"
Mike AI
10-09-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Colin+Oct 9 2003, 11:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Oct 9 2003, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Mike AI@Oct 9 2003, 11:24 AM
Reagan.
I like Reagan but best of the 20th century? I think you're just trying to get a rise out of PD. ;-)
I pick Gandhi as my second.[/b][/quote]
If you can remember where the USA was in 1979-1980 and then where Reagan led us, he was DEFINATELY one of the most influencial.
Not only did he revive the US, brought back our confidence, he also won a 50 year war without firing a shot. ( well major conflict with the enemy) He won itwith his strong leadership. Millions of people who were oppresed behind the iron curtain now enjoy economic and social freedoms.
Winetalk.com
10-09-2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Oct 9 2003, 11:24 AM
Churchill and Reagan.
according to Churchill,
it was...Stalin
;-)
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 12:39 PM
and these ones are awesome :)
""Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.""
""When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.""
""A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.""
""History will be kind to me for I intend to write it""
""The empires of the futures are the empires of the mind""
""My most brilliant achievement was my ability to be able to persuade my wife to marry me""
""We have no lasting friends, no lasting enemies, only lasting interests.""
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 12:42 PM
PCness aside....
In the 30s it was probably Hitler.
He is the leader that has probably left the greatest mark on the 20th Centuary
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 11:47 AM
""History will be kind to me for I intend to write it""
:wnw:
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 05:50 PM
PCness aside....
In the 30s it was probably Hitler.
He is the leader that has probably left the greatest mark on the 20th Centuary
Kate Lawler's just been axed from Channel 4 for saying that... maybe she's in the wrong game...
Evil Chris
10-09-2003, 12:47 PM
Pierre Elliot Trudeau
http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/primeministers/h4-3375-e.html
Since you said Leader and not Politician/Statesman, I will have to reply that Vince Lombardi was the greatest leader of the 20th Century:
No.1 Speech, by Vince Lombardi
Winning is not a sometime thing; it's an all the time thing. You don't win once in a while; you don't do things right once in a while; you do them right all the time. Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.
There is no room for second place. There is only one place in my game, and that's first place. I have finished second twice in my time at Green Bay, and I don't ever want to finish second again. There is a second place bowl game, but it is a game for losers played by losers. It is and always has been an American zeal to be first in anything we do, and to win, and to win, and to win.
Every time a football player goes to ply his trade he's got to play from the ground up — from the soles of his feet right up to his head. Every inch of him has to play. Some guys play with their heads. That's O.K. You've got to be smart to be number one in any business. But more importantly, you've got to play with your heart, with every fiber of your body. If you're lucky enough to find a guy with a lot of head and a lot of heart, he's never going to come off the field second.
Running a football team is no different than running any other kind of organization — an army, a political party or a business. The principles are the same. The object is to win — to beat the other guy. Maybe that sounds hard or cruel. I don't think it is.
It is a reality of life that men are competitive and the most competitive games draw the most competitive men. That's why they are there — to compete. To know the rules and objectives when they get in the game. The object is to win fairly, squarely, by the rules — but to win.
And in truth, I've never known a man worth his salt who in the long run, deep down in his heart, didn't appreciate the grind, the discipline. There is something in good men that really yearns for discipline and the harsh reality of head to head combat.
I don't say these things because I believe in the "brute" nature of man or that men must be brutalized to be combative. I believe in God, and I believe in human decency. But I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle — victorious.
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 12:48 PM
Trev that is nuts.
Stating that does not mean he is to be admired.
Hitler and Stalin were both vicious bastards.
Why does the mentioning of Hitler disproportionally draw more winces than Stalin.
Both committed genocide.
Evil Chris
10-09-2003, 12:49 PM
This is an interesting read for you Americans out there:
Less congenial was the relationship between Ronald Reagan and Pierre Trudeau, who likened living with the United States to "sleeping with an elephant."
http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/primeministers/h4-2230-e.html
The Greatest Leader of all time?
King Leonidas of Sparta.
"Molon Labe"
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 12:53 PM
It depends how you would assess "greatness"
On the political stage both Ronnie and Maggie are not in the same arena as Hiler,Chuchill,Stalin and Ghandi.
And Lombardi is pretty much unknown outside of North America , in UK he'd be the equivelent of Sir Matt Busby.
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 05:56 PM
Trev that is nuts.
Stating that does not mean he is to be admired.
Hitler and Stalin were both vicious bastards.
Why does the mentioning of Hitler disproportionally draw more winces than Stalin.
Both committed genocide.
Tell me about it... but they didn't just axe her they axed the whole show...
Ahh but shes as hot as hell so I forgive her :D
Jim Holio
10-09-2003, 12:55 PM
Frank Stallone
His work on the soundtrack "Staying Alive" healed the world
ulfie
10-09-2003, 01:12 PM
I wrote a paper in HS about Hitler being a great leader and nearly got thrown out for it and this was way before being politically correct was fashionable. Turns out the history teacher was Jewish and didn't like it very much. (I didn't know that at the time or I probably would have picked someone else)
I don't agree at all with what he did during WWII but he did make Germany a world power after it had been decimated by WWI. A great leader gets people to follow them and he surely did it. Does it matter if it's for evil purposes for this discussion? A poor leader sticks his finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing that day in order to figure out what the policy of the day is. Great leaders have a vision and make it happen. Hitler surely did that.
I'm sure some people will take this post the wrong way but I in no way endorse the nazi's or Hitler. The conversation is about leadership and I do think he was a great leader even though he was insane.
sarettah
10-09-2003, 01:16 PM
Jerry Garcia.............
Just because.............
:yowsa:
With you Buff on Lombardi!
Greatest band leader - Benny Goodman
Greatest leader (of any time) - George Washington
Originally posted by Colin@Oct 9 2003, 06:32 AM
I like Churchill in the 20th.
"We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France and on the seas and oceans; we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We shall defend our island whatever the cost may be; we shall fight on beaches, landing grounds, in fields, in streets and on the hills. We shall never surrender and even if, which I do not for the moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, will carry on the struggle until in God's good time the New World with all its power and might, sets forth to the liberation and rescue of the Old"
:okthumb: Here is a snippet of the man himself.
Churchill (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/av/churchill_on_beaches.ram)
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 02:48 PM
It may be total bollocks...but I remember hearing somewhere that that speech was given by a stand in......
It was faked (http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/WSC/Observer291000.html)
It wasn't faked (http://www.winstonchurchill.org/fh112myths.htm)
Last edited by Nickatilynx at Oct 9 2003, 11:05 AM
I'll take Hitler and Nixon.
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 02:57 PM
Nixon?!?!
Yep, Nixon. I've been doing a bit of reading up on him of late and to say that he did not truly change politics in America, hell change the foundation of American politics itself, would be wrong.
We aren't talking morals here, we're talking effectiveness at a job and change to a nation.
Evil Chris
10-09-2003, 03:25 PM
Hitler... that is just plain fucked and shows what some of you *don't* know about leadership.
Leaders and dictators are worlds apart.
ulfie
10-09-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Evil Chris@Oct 9 2003, 02:33 PM
Hitler... that is just plain fucked and shows what some of you *don't* know about leadership.
Leaders and dictators are worlds apart.
Is a corporate CEO not a dictator?
Originally posted by ulfie+Oct 9 2003, 11:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ulfie @ Oct 9 2003, 11:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Evil Chris@Oct 9 2003, 02:33 PM
Hitler... that is just plain fucked and shows what some of you *don't* know about leadership.
Leaders and dictators are worlds apart.
Is a corporate CEO not a dictator?[/b][/quote]
Not in Canada apparently ;)
Evil Chris
10-09-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by *KK*+Oct 9 2003, 03:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Oct 9 2003, 03:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -ulfie@Oct 9 2003, 11:42 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Evil Chris@Oct 9 2003, 02:33 PM
Hitler... that is just plain fucked and shows what some of you *don't* know about leadership.
Leaders and dictators are worlds apart.
Is a corporate CEO not a dictator?
Not in Canada apparently ;)[/b][/quote]
Is that humour?
I'll assume it was...
PornoDoggy
10-09-2003, 04:00 PM
I personally think it's Churchill, with FDR a close second - but (not exactly an earthshaking suprise 'round these parts) you've left off Ghandi. Ho Chi Mihn also deserves a place on 20th century lists - and no, I am not an admirer of him, but his successors are still around whereas those of Hitler and Stalin are not.
Ghandi would appear on my list well above Hitler, who had some short-term success but was unable to build anything that could be sustained. His decision to take on the Soviet Union without first securing a committment from the Japanese to join him may very well be the most (fortunate) collosal blunder of the 20th century - while others may argue that his decision to declare war on America also ranks up there, I'll agree it "weren't too bright", but it was more a matter of form than substance. My father was hunting German submarines off the coast of Canada in the U.S. Coast Guard by the fall of 1940.
From the perspective of American politics, KK is partially correct - Nixon/Mitchell did finish off a process that was already underway - but as much credit for that has to go to the rise of the neoconservative movement as exmplified by Buckley, Goldwater, Reagan, et al. I think she's giving him far too much credit, and putting him a list on the greatest leaders of the 20th century is preposterous.
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by PornoDoggy+Oct 9 2003, 03:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PornoDoggy @ Oct 9 2003, 03:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I personally think it's Churchill, with FDR a close second - but (not exactly an earthshaking suprise 'round these parts) you've left off Ghandi.[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin--Colin@Oct 9 2003, 11:40 AM
I pick Gandhi as my second.[/quote]
PornoDoggy
10-09-2003, 04:11 PM
Well, shit. Sorry about that ... I'm fighting a touch of pneumonia and spending a little time coughing my friggin head off.
Reagan would appear on my list above Nixon, but probably barely in the top 20.
dantheman
10-09-2003, 04:27 PM
I'm going with reagan also, he did more during the early 80's than most do in 2 lifetimes, cold war, economy, not to mention the military was in terrible shape in the late 70's, nam had taken it's toll and he came in and made it a profession to be proud of again, plus he gave us a raise(first one in many years ) :cdance: We all had a picture of him in our rooms that we would salute EVERY day. How many presidents have that kind of respect from the military?
From a personal viewpoint, it was the bear :) True hero to many folks down here during a time when we(southerns) didnt have many. Not to mention a legecy that still looms very large. (and one of the few heros I"ve met and broke bread with :)
oh, and in the entertainment world, ELVIS & Beatles :rokk:
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Oct 9 2003, 03:19 PM
Well, shit. Sorry about that ... I'm fighting a touch of pneumonia and spending a little time coughing my friggin head off.
Reagan would appear on my list above Nixon, but probably barely in the top 20.
A lot of people sick right now. I know someone hospitalized with pneumonia and others with flu.
FDR was my next. I have the same top 3 as you.
After that maybe Lech Walesa and David Ben Gurion. Those guys were leaders.
Martin Luther King. That was one brave man. The bullet that ended his life proves it.
How about Arafat? ;-)
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Evil Chris@Oct 9 2003, 02:33 PM
Hitler... that is just plain fucked and shows what some of you *don't* know about leadership.
Leaders and dictators are worlds apart.
Look under leader in the dictionary and there is a picture Hitler. Look it up in German though. It's "führer".
Mike AI
10-09-2003, 05:06 PM
I think we have to define greatest.
Hitler and Lenin/Stalin were very powerfil leaders, and changed the world with ideas....
It is all in how you define it.
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Oct 9 2003, 04:14 PM
I think we have to define greatest.
Hitler and Lenin/Stalin were very powerfil leaders, and changed the world with ideas....
It is all in how you define it.
Yeah, and the more we all begin to agree on a definition the more we'll agree all on who fits the definition. ;-)
Last edited by Colin at Oct 9 2003, 04:34 PM
Dravyk
10-09-2003, 05:28 PM
Hmm, no one mentioned "Kaiser". And I don't mean "Wilhelm" either. :P
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 05:31 PM
Heres a couple of peoples opinion :)
A leader is a dealer in hope. - Napoleon Bonaparte
Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because he wants to do it. - Dwight Eisenhower
Both of whom were of course Military and Political leaders
Dravyk,
ahahahahaha
He was a bleeder! ;.-)))
Last edited by Nickatilynx at Oct 9 2003, 01:40 PM
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 04:39 PM
A leader is a dealer in hope. - Napoleon Bonaparte
That would leave my top 3 intact. Churchill, Gandhi, and FDR.
Oh, and I like Ike.
Dravyk
10-09-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 04:39 PM
Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because he wants to do it. - Dwight Eisenhower
I knew it! Most wives are leaders!! :awinky:
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 05:38 PM
Nick,
I found this one and like it ...
"Men make history, and not the other way around. In periods where there is no leadership, society stands still. Progress occurs when courageous, skillful leaders seize the opportunity to change things for the better." - Truman
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 05:40 PM
Jesus said "Follow Me." And he arose and followed Him.
Matthew 9:9.
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 05:40 PM
for the better
I agree.The last three words remove all dictators from contention.
They make things better for the few , at the cost of many.
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 04:48 PM
They make things better for the few , at the cost of many.
Heh.
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 05:45 PM
A reverse Jesus.
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader? ~ Benjamin Disraeli
ALL politicians should note this one.
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 04:53 PM
A reverse Jesus.
I must follow the people. Am I not their leader? ~ Benjamin Disraeli
ALL politicians should note this one.
"Books are fatal: they are the curse of the human race. Nine-tenths of existing books are nonsense, and the clever books are the refutation of that nonsense." - Benjamin Disraeli
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 05:52 PM
PD, is it true?
"Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. " - Benjamin Disraeli
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 05:55 PM
I'm gonna read more about Benjamin. :-)
Originally posted by Evil Chris+Oct 9 2003, 11:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Evil Chris @ Oct 9 2003, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -*KK*@Oct 9 2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by -ulfie@Oct 9 2003, 11:42 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Evil Chris@Oct 9 2003, 02:33 PM
Hitler... that is just plain fucked and shows what some of you *don't* know about leadership.
Leaders and dictators are worlds apart.
Is a corporate CEO not a dictator?
Not in Canada apparently ;)
Is that humour?
I'll assume it was...[/b][/quote]
Let's just say I responded in kind.
As for the dealers in hope comment, damn, that would make about 75% of the strippers leaders, has anyone told them this yet? ;)
PornoDoggy
10-09-2003, 06:07 PM
Well, now, about Reagan - I was in the military at the same time as Dan, apparently - he did give us one good pay raise (14% is what I got as an E6 - took me above the poverty level for approximately 6 months).
I have always suspected that he lost interest in us after he determined that the Army no longer had any mule trains, because after that first raise we went right back to what we'd had before - generally, slightly les than HALF the rate of inflation.
This is also the man that attempted to make Blue Helmets out of the U.S. Marine Corps, but somehow St. Ronald never seems to bear responsiblility for the 63 souls that paid the ulitmate price for that policy. We kicked the shit out of them Cuban construction workers and threw one hell of a tantrum at Ghadafi, though ...
Finally, I do not dispute that the last years of the Soviet Union were dangerous times - but I don't think they were substantially more threatening than Berlin, 1948; Cuba, 1962; or the Yom Kippur war in 1973 (which Nixon doesn't get near enough credit for). Truman & Ike began, and his successors through Reagan followed, a policy of passive confrontation - the Cold War. Crediting Reagan for the collapse of the Iron Curtain is hperbole at its best. Reagan happened to be around when it collapsed under its own weight. What would have happened had the ongoing leadership struggle that began with the death of Breshnev not ultimately been won by Gorbachev - who would rank far higher on my list than Ronnie?
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 06:08 PM
KK,
OK smartass, whats your definition. ;-)))
Oh wait....you liked Nixon!
:yowsa:
:nyanya:
PornoDoggy
10-09-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Colin@Oct 9 2003, 05:00 PM
PD, is it true?
"Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. " - Benjamin Disraeli
Nope.
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 05:03 PM
I'm gonna read more about Benjamin. :-)
Me too!
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 02:16 PM
KK,
OK smartass, whats your definition. ;-)))
Oh wait....you liked Nixon!
:yowsa:
:nyanya:
You realize dont you that Nixon was not the first one to pull the bugging of the campaign headquarters trick right ? LBJ takes that honor, without it coming out til recently, as well as leaving Nixon in a huge pickle with the Vietnam War and trying to get the troops out without wreaking total havoc in Asia? Which Nixon also managed to, tho he did lie to the S. Vietnamese government in order to accomplish it.
My definition of a great leader would depend on just what he was leading. Business would be different than politics different than religion.
Rosie
10-09-2003, 06:29 PM
Nelson Mandela
ulfie
10-09-2003, 06:36 PM
Nixon was a lot like Clinton in certain ways. Their personality flaws brought them down more than anything else. Both could have been remembered as great Presidents but they both screwed up enough to be put in the historical waste basket.
clemsontiger
10-09-2003, 07:03 PM
I'm glad at least a few people said FDR. His work after WW II was over is what helped map the way for the US today. Plus he was the first President to be elected after the crash of the stock market in '29, that took some balls. :D
My second choice would have to be Alexander the Great (all time).
Wig - In your line of thinking, what about "Bear" Bryant or even Red Auerbach?
Last edited by clemsontiger at Oct 9 2003, 07:12 PM
Peaches
10-09-2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by clemsontiger@Oct 9 2003, 07:11 PM
Wig - In your line of thinking, what about "Bear" Bryant or even Red Auerbach?
Danny said Bear! :)
$tanDaMan
10-09-2003, 07:10 PM
I'd say Hitler /Ghandi for the 20th and Napoleon for 19th
confucy
10-09-2003, 07:18 PM
CONFUCIUS
Vick, best blues singer: Billie Holiday :okthumb:
PornoDoggy
10-09-2003, 07:36 PM
I admire and respect Mandela and Martin Luther King, but they could not have accomplished what they did without the example of Ghandi.
Roosevelt had the vision to edge the United States closer to the Allies in Europe than the isolationists wanted, and he (along with Marshall) was the primary architect of the two-front strategy that we ultimately fought the war with. However, IM(NS)HO, the man who deserves the credit for saving Europe from Communism is Truman. Without the Marshall Plan, Greece, Italy, and France all probably would have gone communist.
And KK - the results that President Kissenger, er, Nixon achieved in Vietnam were absolutely no different than if we had packed our happy asses up and gone home after Tet in 1968 - with the possible exception of 30,000 American and 500,000+ Vietnamese who'd be having grandbabies today. As a matter of fact, with the decimation of the Viet Cong that Tet caused, the tactical situation would have been better for the South Vietnamese that way. The idea that the Paris settlement reassured ANYONE anyplace other than in Podunk, Arkansas, about U.S. resolve in Asia is patently silly. We didn't "lie" to the South Vietnamese government - we sold them down the river.
Almighty Colin
10-09-2003, 07:52 PM
Mandela annoys the piss out of me.
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 08:27 PM
Mandela annoys the piss out of me.
ahahahahahaha same here.
And his wife Winnie....what a peice of work.
Evil Chris
10-09-2003, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Colin+Oct 9 2003, 04:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Oct 9 2003, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Evil Chris@Oct 9 2003, 02:33 PM
Hitler... that is just plain fucked and shows what some of you *don't* know about leadership.
Leaders and dictators are worlds apart.
Look under leader in the dictionary and there is a picture Hitler. Look it up in German though. It's "führer".[/b][/quote]
Thanks for the German lesson Colin, however it is one of the three languages that I am fluent in.
Hitler was a leader in the sense of the word, yes. A great leader he was not.
Soul_Rebel
10-09-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Colin@Oct 9 2003, 01:48 PM
Jesus said "Follow Me." And he arose and followed Him.
Matthew 9:9.
and Fantasyman said "Follow Me Free" !
bluedesignstudios
10-09-2003, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Soul_Rebel+Oct 9 2003, 05:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Soul_Rebel @ Oct 9 2003, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Colin@Oct 9 2003, 01:48 PM
Jesus said "Follow Me." And he arose and followed Him.
Matthew 9:9.
and Fantasyman said "Follow Me Free" ![/b][/quote]
Hahaha I don't recall ever reading that one in the Bible :awinky:
bluedesignstudios
10-09-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Mike AI@Oct 9 2003, 01:14 PM
I think we have to define greatest.
Hitler and Lenin/Stalin were very powerfil leaders, and changed the world with ideas....
It is all in how you define it.
Very True
It's difficult to compare Gandi, Mandela & Dr King with Hitler, Lenin & Stalin
They had a very different style to say the least.
I'd say Gandi, Mandela & Dr King were better & greater,
Though the other 3 changed the world more I'd say - though not for the better
Originally posted by *KK*@Oct 9 2003, 02:29 PM
My definition of a great leader would depend on just what he was leading. Business would be different than politics different than religion.
Upon reflection, I'd like to modify my statement.
The one thing they all three have in common is to get the 'collection plate' as full as possible.
That might be a definition in and of itself Nicky baby ;)
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 10:32 PM
The Noriega is your man :)
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 06:40 PM
The Noriega is your man :)
Him, Bill Gates or Larry Ellison I guess.
Damn, left out Billy Graham.
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 11:07 PM
You'd break Bill Gates ;-))))
And Billy Graham would be too freaky for you , I bet ;-)))
If the list is getting this long ......
Walter Elias Disney
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 07:15 PM
You'd break Bill Gates ;-))))
And Billy Graham would be too freaky for you , I bet ;-)))
Hahaha, thanks, I think.
Nickatilynx
10-09-2003, 11:14 PM
Walt...hmmm interesting.
If we are digressing , which we are...
Ya know, I always wanted to be Howard Hughes. Truthfully.
;-))
SykkBoy
10-09-2003, 11:16 PM
Another vote for Hitler
Sorry, but any man who can accomplish what he did has some major balls and leadership out the ass...doesn't mean what he did was good, but it was effective...
I see this talk about Ronald Reagan, what about Nancy Reagan? Anyone besides me rememebr the jokes about him talking and her lips not moving?
I lived in Wyoming in the 80's, Reagean definitely wasn't a hero there...his policies with japan basically bankrupted the state (the iron ore mine was a major job provider in central Wyoming) If only my dad was in New York raping people and driving a beamer and fucking his secretary instead of working his ass off in mines, I'd have a more positive outlook on Ronnie...
Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 07:22 PM
Walt...hmmm interesting.
If we are digressing , which we are...
Ya know, I always wanted to be Howard Hughes. Truthfully.
;-))
Afraid of germs are we?
hitler
10-10-2003, 01:11 AM
:wnw: hail hitler
Almighty Colin
10-10-2003, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by Evil Chris@Oct 9 2003, 08:34 PM
Hitler was a leader in the sense of the word, yes. A great leader he was not.
Alexander the Great, Peter the Great, Charles the Great.
All of them were ruthless invaders and killers.
Almighty Colin
10-10-2003, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by SykkBoy@Oct 9 2003, 10:24 PM
I see this talk about Ronald Reagan, what about Nancy Reagan? Anyone besides me rememebr the jokes about him talking and her lips not moving?
Those kind of jokes are always popular whenever there is a strong first lady. Probably loudest when the Clintons were in the White House. Can you imagine what kind of rumor-mongering there will be if Hillary gets elected and Bill is the first man?
Almighty Colin
10-10-2003, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by *KK*+Oct 10 2003, 12:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Oct 10 2003, 12:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 07:22 PM
Walt...hmmm interesting.
If we are digressing , which we are...
Ya know, I always wanted to be Howard Hughes. Truthfully.
;-))
Afraid of germs are we?[/b][/quote]
Ever seen that Simpsons episode? (You'll know which one if you've seen it;-))
Almighty Colin
10-10-2003, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by Colin+Oct 10 2003, 04:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Oct 10 2003, 04:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -*KK*@Oct 10 2003, 12:10 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Nickatilynx@Oct 9 2003, 07:22 PM
Walt...hmmm interesting.
If we are digressing , which we are...
Ya know, I always wanted to be Howard Hughes. Truthfully.
;-))
Afraid of germs are we?
Ever seen that Simpsons episode? (You'll know which one if you've seen it;-))[/b][/quote]
Homage: Mr Burns' distressing condition is inspired by the eccentric millionaire recluse Howard Hughes, who had a similar dread of germs and built a (more workable) plane called the Spruce Goose.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/simpsons/episode...n5/page10.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/simpsons/episodeguide/season5/page10.shtml)
Don't ya just love hyperlinks?
Joe Sixpack
10-10-2003, 06:28 AM
Lenin. No question.
Last edited by Joe Sixpack at Oct 10 2003, 02:36 AM
Winetalk.com
10-10-2003, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@Oct 10 2003, 05:36 AM
Lenin. No question.
this idiot?
why????
Joe Sixpack
10-10-2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Oct 10 2003, 02:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Oct 10 2003, 02:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Joe Sixpack@Oct 10 2003, 05:36 AM
Lenin. No question.
this idiot?
why????[/b][/quote]
I have to give credit where credit is due. I'm no fan of totalitarianism but he DID lead the most significant revolution of the 20th century.
He was also a magnificent orator. And that is a MUST for a good leader!
Originally posted by Colin@Oct 9 2003, 01:46 PM
"Men make history, and not the other way around. In periods where there is no leadership, society stands still. Progress occurs when courageous, skillful leaders seize the opportunity to change things for the better." - Truman
there is another argument that the world is never short of great leaders, but rather short of the circumstances where great leadership is required and where great people can rise to the spotlight.
Aint no way some goddam drug taking scouse is gonna be labeled a great leader!!! Not on my watch sunshine! <_<
Originally posted by Joe Sixpack@Oct 10 2003, 02:49 AM
He was also a magnificent orator. And that is a MUST for a good leader!
you speak Russian? or is this just an assumption?
He came to power through a Coup after the 3rd or i believe 4th try.... not through the leading the masses. It was due more to circumstances that presented themselves. His opinions and views were in the minority, his followers were the minority. He was a thief, a bandit and a murderer.
Dont confuse leadership with terrorism.
Winetalk.com
10-10-2003, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Joe Sixpack+Oct 10 2003, 05:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ Oct 10 2003, 05:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Serge_Oprano@Oct 10 2003, 02:37 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Joe Sixpack@Oct 10 2003, 05:36 AM
Lenin. No question.
this idiot?
why????
I have to give credit where credit is due. I'm no fan of totalitarianism but he DID lead the most significant revolution of the 20th century.
He was also a magnificent orator. And that is a MUST for a good leader![/b][/quote]
I see your point...
Joe Sixpack
10-10-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by JR+Oct 10 2003, 03:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JR @ Oct 10 2003, 03:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Joe Sixpack@Oct 10 2003, 02:49 AM
He was also a magnificent orator. And that is a MUST for a good leader!
you speak Russian? or is this just an assumption?
He came to power through a Coup after the 3rd or i believe 4th try.... not through the leading the masses. It was due more to circumstances that presented themselves. His opinions and views were in the minority, his followers were the minority. He was a thief, a bandit and a murderer.
Dont confuse leadership with terrorism.[/b][/quote]
:biglaugh:
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Last edited by Joe Sixpack at Oct 10 2003, 03:30 AM
how many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of great orators are there in the world today.... why aren't they considered great leaders?
Almighty Colin
10-10-2003, 07:47 AM
"My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes." -- Ronald Reagan. Radio microphone test in 1984.
Nickatilynx
10-10-2003, 10:55 AM
Afraid of germs are we?
Nope.But I really like Mormons and Vegas :)
"My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes." -- Ronald Reagan. Radio microphone test in 1984.
I tried to find that quote yesterday. :)
And as for that Simpsons episode I thought it was
"Excellent" ('http://www.frontiernet.net/~liana/Simpsons/index.shtml')
Almighty Colin
10-10-2003, 11:03 AM
Nick,
So what do you think about those linked you shared stating that an actor gave or did not give Churchill's speech?
Nickatilynx
10-10-2003, 11:26 AM
Colin,
I think it is possible it was performed by an actor.
But in the end it doesn't matter who performed it. It was Churchill's words.
:)
Joe Sixpack
10-10-2003, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by JR@Oct 10 2003, 03:40 AM
how many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of great orators are there in the world today.... why aren't they considered great leaders?
Stalin's Speech Delivered at a Memorial Meeting of the Kremlin Military School January 28, 1924 (http://neptune.spaceports.com/~stalin/stalin_4.htm)
HoneyBlond
10-11-2003, 07:10 AM
I believe Mikhail Gorbachev perhaps deserves a placing.
:)
I do not think Churchill was the greatest leader in the 20th century... he was good at a time when there was a war, which needed a strong man, however IMHO his foresight was not that good.
Ex. he made bad judgements when it came to the impact of nuclear weapons in world peace (the balance of power) - the decisions he made in the final year of the 2nd world war was part of the reason we were pushed into decades of nuclear arms race (money wasted, and people scared for their life). Prehaps some of the 50 years of cold war could have been prevented, if he had trusted more on the people arround him, but I guess a world war can make you suspicious of everyone.
Ofcouse he is not to blame for the cold war, but I´m sure that if he had more foresight, then we could probably have avoided alot of the drama.
Leaders who are good in a time of crises are usual not that brilliant, when we need someone one the bridge to just navigate the ship and not cause problems.
My vote goes to... well funny I can´t really find any great political leader in the 20th century - maybe its because I do not like politicians :unsure: :)
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